The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[geoff998rugby]

lets hope members of the new company don't sign tv contracts without telling fellow members

  

If ERC did there job properly then the members wouldn't have had to do that in the first place!

To go behind peoples back is unacceptable.

The ERC greatly increased revenue during its tenure - all this wild talk of £100 million is a wish figure.
The actual figures for next year will not differ greatly from this one, I suspect, when we finally get to see them.

[SecretFly]

Lets hope the new organisers listen to the Countries France and England involved (the two who bring the money to the game) and not sell the TV rights to the lowest bidder in the future.

Quite right, Scumpy, well corrected, cos as we all now know, it all about the money

Very true, without the money we both bring to the table to be caved up between us all then the Pro game would fall apart in all the Home Nations and France plus teams in the rest of Europe would just give up which would be a shame and the bigger problem would be that the SH teams would pull even further away from us.

Scrumpy...you're in your own boat when it comes to the SH and/or competing with them.  There is no "us". The rest of 'us' will do our own thing against the SH teams - win or lose - same as usual.  And we won't be cheering on England and France as they 'represent' the rest of us in any of their future dealings with the SH now that they'll have an enhanced national advantage written into law in the new European competiton .

This keeps coming up in recent years.... how we're all in this together against the SH.  The great crusade to overcome the dominance of the SH.  
No such crusade exists. For some of us, England and France are simply two other teams with targets on them...same as the SH teams.  A competitor is a competitor.  That's all each and every one of us are to each other.

[Scrumpy]

Is that why you don't beat them?

and if I may say so that is a very amateur way of thinking.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Is that why you don't beat them?

and if I may say so that is a very amateur way of thinking.

Give that boy a kipper

[SecretFly]

Is that why you don't beat them?

and if I may say so that is a very amateur way of thinking.

No - it's why we won't be looking for either you or France to do any winning or losing, that might be coming down the line, for us

Neither English rugby nor French rugby represents European rugby. But they still get six Automatic places to the new competition as other nations one more time see their auto numbers decrease. That's been the history of Europe since Professionalism started (more for England and France, less for the others) ...and it continues apace with the new 'fair' deal for everyone.

[beshocked]

Since everyone is probably getting along so dandily an' all behind the scenes (WRU getting a back stab recently from Saracens.  Italy and France still not sure what the fine print says...)
.... I think the new European Rugby Deal should last a long time indeed so that it can settle down and nobody feels paranoia grow by the day or feels they're trapped into something they quickly see as a path to self-destruction.................


....hmmm, I think a year would be a nice length before we all get back to the negotiating table again.  Six months if possible.

I think the criticism the WRU has got from Edward Griffiths of Saracens is well warranted. I applaud him for it.   

I wouldn't call what Edward Griffiths said backstabbing. He was probably asked his opinion and answer in a frank and honest manner.

[munkian]

Beshocked defends anything to with Saracens 'shocker'   

[Scrumpy]

'Neither English rugby nor French rugby represents European rugby.'

Please explain this strange comment?  


We can't give Ireland, Wales and Scotland 6 places each can we?
I think you just don't like the thought that some of you may miss out on a place in the Euro Cup and the pressures that brings to you clubs/Regions etc and fans alike, welcome to our world!   

You had it good for too long, but you were all happy to take the automatic place (and Money!) year after year.

[SecretFly]

I think the criticism the WRU has got from Edward Griffiths of Saracens is well warranted. I applaud him for it.   

Of course you would...you're English, beshocked.

The Stuff You Cup?  Maybe when a plan nears completion, manners alone would keep a mouth shut, no?

[SecretFly]

'Neither English rugby nor French rugby represents European rugby.'

Please explain this strange comment?  


We can't give Ireland, Wales and Scotland 6 places each can we?

 Course we can't.  One: They don't have enough teams anyway. Two: They're called Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy.

I think you just don't like the thought that some of you may miss out on a place in the Euro Cup and the pressures that brings to you clubs/Regions etc and fans alike, welcome to our world!   

What world is that Scrumpy?  The guaranteed six places world?  We feel so sad for you...all them sacrifices you made to bring about a 'fairer sytem' that has cut back the guaranteed places of the others to .................em, one apiece (if they're indeed even that lucky when the details come out.  

The Screw You Cup?

You had it good for too long, but you were all happy to take the automatic place (and Money!) year after year.

Correct... our winning finally had to be curtailed.  And if you can't beat 'em, well - ban 'em.

[Scrumpy]

 

Embrace the change, it will be good for the little teams in your league in the long run, they have something to play for.

You are aware that there are 6 teams that don't get in the Euro cup in the Aviva! as you didn't comment on 'pressures that brings to you clubs and fans alike'  

just think of those poor fans year after year! But no wait you only think of yourselfs don't you?  

[Portnoy's Complaint]

When will we read the details underpinning this EC announcement?

So far the only thing I've learned is about the TV deal.

I want to examine the nitty-gritty.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Which world is preferable?
The world in which half or a quarter of your nation's top teams auto-qualify for the top Euro competition, and all the others could qualify, or one in which half of your nations teams auto-qualify, and the remainder are barred.

[Scrumpy]

Welcome to the real world of Pro Sport.

[SecretFly]

 

Embrace the change, it will be good for the little teams in your league in the long run, they have something to play for.

You are aware that there are 6 teams that don't get in the Euro cup in the Aviva! as you didn't comment on 'pressures that brings to you clubs and fans alike'  

just think of those poor fans year after year! But no wait you only think of yourselfs don't you?  

I don't have a League..I have a country.  

I couldn't care less what Ospreys or Glasgow do in the Pro12 or Europe.  But I still benefit in real terms when Ulster and Munster do okay in Europe at the expense of Leinster.  It's called International.  You know?  Your deal about the big bad SH v NH, and all that jazz??

Now you maybe know why I say English and French rugby doesn't represent European rugby.  But they still get six auto places each year in high grade Europe competition to shape their International sides with.

The Dirty Dozen Cup?

[LondonTiger]

You had it good for too long, but you were all happy to take the automatic place (and Money!) year after year.

And that is what this was all about. It had nothing to do with fairness of competition but making sure revenue generation was maximised and reflected the earning potential of the participants.

So it was about greed. Pigs swilling at the trough (and I include all 6 countries participants in that description).

[SecretFly]

Which world is preferable?
The world in which half or a quarter of your nation's top teams auto-qualify for the top Euro competition, and all the others could qualify, or one in which half of your nations teams auto-qualify, and the remainder are barred.

It's preferable to have enough teams that qualify (by right - not skill levels! ) that might afford you an opportunity to have an International side competent enough to have a crack at...wait for it!! wait for it!!!!!!!!!................. the SHers!!!

England got six sides to get 23 Internationals out of.  France got six sides to get 23 Internationals out of.  The rest will now have 23 players to get 23 Internationals out of.  

Wow!    The 'fairness' just wafts off of it the more you thing about it.

[Scrumpy]

SecretFly then why should England or France or their Fans care about you guys?

Why don't you set up your own league, invest in it over many years and build that up to a standard where by you could get 6 places too, mind you that would take a lot of effort and you would still have to earn you places which I still get the impression that you don't want to do.

Freeloaders!

[Scrumpy]

Which world is preferable?
The world in which half or a quarter of your nation's top teams auto-qualify for the top Euro competition, and all the others could qualify, or one in which half of your nations teams auto-qualify, and the remainder are barred.

It's preferable to have enough teams that qualify (by right - not skill levels! ) that might afford you an opportunity to have an International side competent enough to have a crack at...wait for it!! wait for it!!!!!!!!!................. the SHers!!!

England got six sides to get 23 Internationals out of. France got six sides to get 23 Internationals out of. The rest will now have 23 players to get 23 Internationals out of.

Wow! The 'fairness' just wafts off of it the more you thing about it.

Your unions chose to only have a few Pro teams, you reap what you sow!

[No 7&1/2]

It's a club competition not somewhere to blood internationals.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Which world is preferable?
The world in which half or a quarter of your nation's top teams auto-qualify for the top Euro competition, and all the others could qualify, or one in which half of your nations teams auto-qualify, and the remainder are barred.

It's preferable to have enough teams that qualify (by right - not skill levels! ) that might afford you an opportunity to have an International side competent enough to have a crack at...wait for it!! wait for it!!!!!!!!!................. the SHers!!!

England got six sides to get 23 Internationals out of.  France got six sides to get 23 Internationals out of.  The rest will now have 23 players to get 23 Internationals out of.  

Wow!    The 'fairness' just wafts off of it the more you thing about it.

Schmidt only picks from one province anyway, doesn't he? What are you moaning about?

[SecretFly]

SecretFly then why should England or France or their Fans care about you guys?

Why don't you set up your own league, invest in it over many years and build that up to a standard where by you could get 6 places too, mind you that would take a lot of effort and you would still have to earn you places which I still get the impression that you don't want to do.

Freeloaders!

First part easily answered.  You don't.  
Which is the only truly Fair thing that has emerged from these negotiations.  Nobody cares about anyone else.  I don't care about you.  You don't care about me.  Fair is fair - it's a Deal.

As for earning places at the top?  History speaks for itself.... or haven't you been watching European rugby for the past 6 or 7 years?

6 Guaranteed places for English and French rugby because of the number of TV set-top boxes their citizens have is not earning anything - as actual performance IN the contest has been telling us for a number of years now.  
Playing actual rugby that wins things is earning the right to be on the field, not the number of TV aerials

[SecretFly]

It's a club competition not somewhere to blood internationals.

Tell Wilkinson (Toulon) and Lancaster that. Their opinions run counter to yours...as does mine...as does the RFU, who did so much work as 'neutrals' to get PRL back into Europe...... for their own very selfish reasons.

[SecretFly]

Schmidt only picks from one province anyway, doesn't he? What are you moaning about?

It seems it was enough - yes.  Oh what we could achieve with Six, like the multi-channelled and TV aerialed people  World domination????

[munkian]

England have nearly as many registered rugby players as Wales has people. There is no feasible way of having a 12 team professional league - same as Ireland.

[No 7&1/2]

It's a club competition not somewhere to blood internationals.

Tell Wilkinson (Toulon) and Lancaster that.  Their opinions run counter to yours...as does mine...as does the RFU, who did so much work as 'neutrals' to get PRL back into Europe...... for their own very selfish reasons.

Well Lancaster can't think it's the be all and end all as he's given chances to players not among this elite. If we're really playing at fairness and not selfishness we should be weighting money and bias towards Scotland and Italy shouldn't we to help them catch up with the rest?

[SecretFly]

Away with you....you got most money.  

But then, people in your country have vocally prefered to help the 'poor' peoples of Russia, Georgia, Germany, Spain etc, etc....,haven't they.

Russia especially moves me to tears...that we're finally going to allow a few million oligarchs in to share in our humble piece of pie and help them fund the growth of their gyme.  Emotional stuff, God be good to them   

Meanwhile, back at the fort - kick Italy and Scotland out!  Not just from Club Europe, btw - but from the 6N too.

Yep, you guys are feeling very loving to the Scots in recent months (and I wonder why)...I can see now that a cap-around to help them out would see a lot of jangling and very few notes of worth

[No 7&1/2]

Don't really follow a club side so not overly bothered however it turns out. Think it's a fair point though. If we agree this cup should be about helping the international sides we should have absolute equal representation so 2 each say? I would then say that Italy and Scotland should get a helping hand. Say they get to play at home whenever facing an Irish, French or English side. Would ensure that they get a helping hand, more chance to go through and will thus help their international prospects.

[Poorfour]

I don't have a League..I have a country.  

I couldn't care less what Ospreys or Glasgow do in the Pro12 or Europe.  But I still benefit in real terms when Ulster and Munster do okay in Europe at the expense of Leinster.  It's called International.  You know?  Your deal about the big bad SH v NH, and all that jazz??

Now you maybe know why I say English and French rugby doesn't represent European rugby.  But they still get six auto places each year in high grade Europe competition to shape their International sides with.

The Dirty Dozen Cup?

We will never agree on this because it is essentially "my dad's bigger than your dad". You see European competition as preparing players for international rugby, and therefore want maximum access for your country's players. That's feasible when your country only supports 4 top tier professional teams, one of which is run more-or-less as a feeder. Your country balances that level of concentration of its top players with having a viable "domestic" league by allying with several other nations who also have a highly concentrated player pool.

My country supports 15 or 16 teams that could realistically compete in the top level domestic competition, and the pool of potential international players is spread among 10 or more of them. There isn't really the option to concentrate that pool further, because we need enough teams to have a viable domestic league. It's not realistic to expect all of those teams to have access to the top tier, so I happily accept that they will compete for it. I also see European competition as a key element of keeping my club (and its peers) financially viable. Player preparation is a beneficial side effect.

I wouldn't want to see Ireland forced to develop an Irish domestic league of 10-12 professional teams. I don't think you have the players or the audience to support it, and I suspect it wouldn't fit comfortably with your rugby heritage and traditions (which is important in sport - especially a nascent professional sport that needs a loyal core fanbase to build from).

By the same token, I wouldn't regard it as reasonable to expect the English club system to be distorted to move more into line with the Celtic model. Leaving aside the legal issues around ownership, it also wouldn't be sustainable (not enough teams for the domestic bread and butter) and it would ride roughshod over a rugby heritage that has always been about clubs.

Point being: two very different systems that exist the way they are for good reasons. But if we want a European competition, we need to accommodate both sides' requirements. That means compromise. The previous structure was much more strongly aligned to what the Celtic unions want in terms of qualification and money. The new structure seems more neutral to me, but my perspective is a club-centric one. Regardless, it looks likely to be agreed, so logically it has to be better than each union's best alternative.

[quinsforever]

it's clearly a club competition. even the ERC defines it so.

talk of blooding internationals in HC games is only applicable to Unions that control their clubs (and team selection) that participate in HC. (SRU/IRFU/FIR). Not RFU, FFR and WRU

The tournament is ON because the financial alternative is death to several participants in the discussions. It is not ON because everyone sees it as a critical means of "blooding" players.

[Scrumpy]

It seems the truth hurts!

I look forward to watching a long hard season in the Rabo, it will be interesting to see how some teams approach it knowing that failure will hit them in their pockets.

[quinsforever]

Don't really follow a club side so not overly bothered however it turns out. Think it's a fair point though. If we agree this cup should be about helping the international sides we should have absolute equal representation so 2 each say? I would then say that Italy and Scotland should get a helping hand. Say they get to play at home whenever facing an Irish, French or English side. Would ensure that they get a helping hand, more chance to go through and will thus help their international prospects.

2 massive problems with this.

money

and money

the IRFU and WRU for example get EUR10m from their clubs playing so many fixtures in HC plus TV rights etc. out of total budgets of about EUR60m.

they cant afford a cut of the magnitude required to have so few matches as you suggest.

And from a personal perspective i cant agree with you that the cup should be about helping international sides. the club euro cup is about clubs for the two nations that bring in about 75% of the revenue in the tournament. i just cant accept that the tournament should be about supporting the international teams of the other four nations.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

SecretFly then why should England or France or their Fans care about you guys?

Why don't you set up your own league, invest in it over many years and build that up to a standard where by you could get 6 places too, mind you that would take a lot of effort and you would still have to earn you places which I still get the impression that you don't want to do.

Freeloaders!

First part easily answered.  You don't.  
Which is the only truly Fair thing that has emerged from these negotiations.  Nobody cares about anyone else.  I don't care about you.  You don't care about me.  Fair is fair - it's a Deal.

As for earning places at the top?  History speaks for itself.... or haven't you been watching European rugby for the past 6 or 7 years?

6 Guaranteed places for English and French rugby because of the number of TV set-top boxes their citizens have is not earning anything - as actual performance IN the contest has been telling us for a number of years now.  
Playing actual rugby that wins things is earning the right to be on the field, not the number of TV aerials

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

It's a club competition not somewhere to blood internationals.

Tell Wilkinson (Toulon) and Lancaster that.  Their opinions run counter to yours...as does mine...as does the RFU, who did so much work as 'neutrals' to get PRL back into Europe...... for their own very selfish reasons.

Well Lancaster can't think it's the be all and end all as he's given chances to players not among this elite. If we're really playing at fairness and not selfishness we should be weighting money and bias towards Scotland and Italy shouldn't we to help them catch up with the rest?

Erm, that's what the old system did!!

[SecretFly]

It seems the truth hurts!

I look forward to watching a long hard season in the Rabo, it will be interesting to see how some teams approach it knowing that failure will hit them in their pockets.

There's the point.  Competition hurts and you seem to hope you have less of it around when 'some teams' now come to Europe.  You hope the new 'efforts' of Pro12 will tire them out, injure some of them, and knock a good many of them out of form.

So your Auto Six will, hopefully for you, face a much more ragged and unsure Rabo Maybe side (as in maybe they'll have qualified and maybe they hopefully won't )  

But me?  I see 'some teams' in Pro12 still sending 3rd string outfits into Pro12 competition well into this decade.  

3rd strings.  There is something beautiful about them in terms of perpetual motion dynamics....and that's the truth.

[quinsforever]

It's a club competition not somewhere to blood internationals.

Tell Wilkinson (Toulon) and Lancaster that.  Their opinions run counter to yours...as does mine...as does the RFU, who did so much work as 'neutrals' to get PRL back into Europe...... for their own very selfish reasons.

Well Lancaster can't think it's the be all and end all as he's given chances to players not among this elite. If we're really playing at fairness and not selfishness we should be weighting money and bias towards Scotland and Italy shouldn't we to help them catch up with the rest?

Erm, that's what the old system did!!

yes, and that's one of the major reasons we are where we are.

if unions agree to subsidise other unions it should be done at the 6N level, not via the club level, off the back of two leagues whose clubs are run for profit.

if the RFU, IRFU and WRU are happy to reallocate some monies from 6N and other international competitions, fair play. i somehow suspect it will never happen though. much easier to do it from the evil greedy robber baron club owners   

[No 7&1/2]

Don't really follow a club side so not overly bothered however it turns out. Think it's a fair point though. If we agree this cup should be about helping the international sides we should have absolute equal representation so 2 each say? I would then say that Italy and Scotland should get a helping hand. Say they get to play at home whenever facing an Irish, French or English side. Would ensure that they get a helping hand, more chance to go through and will thus help their international prospects.

2 massive problems with this.

money

and money

the IRFU and WRU for example get EUR10m from their clubs playing so many fixtures in HC plus TV rights etc. out of total budgets of about EUR60m.

they cant afford a cut of the magnitude required to have so few matches as you suggest.

And from a personal perspective i cant agree with you that the cup should be about helping international sides. the club euro cup is about clubs for the two nations that bring in about 75% of the revenue in the tournament. i just cant accept that the tournament should be about supporting the international teams of the other four nations.

I don't think that was just trying to expand on the thought that if the cup is about international sides rather than a 'selfish' club comp it should really be changed to have an equal impact on everyone or a much firmer bias towards Scotland and Italy. My thoughts are that a lot of people saying that the PRL are selfish etc and ignore those others are saying it for their own country's gain rather than the 6 international sides jointly.

[quinsforever]

totally agree with that 7.5

i've said this 100 times on this site, but this dispute at club level was always inevitable and completely predictable once the game went professional and only some leagues did.

[SecretFly]

6 International sides jointly?  Fine.  When do we begin?

2 teams apiece?  Fine.  When do we start?

12 sides...a virtual mini League.  Fine - let's go.



We'd be waiting a long long time though, wouldn't we.  Two English and French sides wouldn't be enough 'interest' in those countries who would want more 'representation'.  And of course that means we'd be back to square one as that's the big issue - Fair representation by Nation.

Anyway, as has been said more than once by many people, we're never going to agree on this one.  We all have different measuring sticks of 'fairness' that we're bringing to it and the deciding factor will be observation of the competition at work.

If it begins to further weaken rugby in some nations (and that means weakening of performance and lack of winning rather than strengthening interest in or TV/sponsorship money from)  then in time they'll have to decide whether their National interests are truly being served by the new way and the plug will be pulled again for re-negotiation.

[Guest]

Hate to be the one to break it to you but you've still mentioned them

  

[No 7&1/2]

Well that's another thing I disagree on it should be per league not per nation. Brings us back to the fact that if there was truely a motive to help the international sides Ireland would be pushing to limit the amount of sides they are allowed each year. If they get to the point that 3 of their teams have qualified give that 3 rd place to a Scottish or Italian team who hasn't. That would surely benefit the NH international scene overall?

[quinsforever]

"fair representation by nation"

seems pretty fair to me in the new format. each nation will probably have half its top-tier sides in the new HC, with welsh and irish sides likely to have 5 out of 8 going through.

[Guest]

Since everyone is probably getting along so dandily an' all behind the scenes (WRU getting a back stab recently from Saracens.  Italy and France still not sure what the fine print says...)
.... I think the new European Rugby Deal should last a long time indeed so that it can settle down and nobody feels paranoia grow by the day or feels they're trapped into something they quickly see as a path to self-destruction.................


....hmmm, I think a year would be a nice length before we all get back to the negotiating table again.  Six months if possible.

I think the criticism the WRU has got from Edward Griffiths of Saracens is well warranted. I applaud him for it.   

I wouldn't call what Edward Griffiths said backstabbing. He was probably asked his opinion and answer in a frank and honest manner.

Of course you're right. The man is all class, as are a few of those PRL. All helps ensure the future success of the Super Duper Cup.   

[SecretFly]

"fair representation by nation"

seems pretty fair to me in the new format. each nation will probably have half its top-tier sides in the new HC, with welsh and irish sides likely to have 5 out of 8 going through.

quins...it might have passed you by yet again...but Welsh sides have absolutely no significance to me.

"5 from 8" has no meaning.  It means nothing.  

"Each Nation will probably have Half its top tier sides."

Only bit of interest in that to me is that you're saying Ireland will probably (and only probably! - not written into any contract) have Two whilst England will undoubtedly/certainly (regardless of seasonal form) have Six.
How many Wales have interests me less than indeed it perhaps interests you, as I seem to recall you saying you love Welsh/English clashes in whatever form (Club or International).

[No 7&1/2]

But I thought you were after helping the international sides Fly, or did you mean that you only want what's best for Ireland?

[Scrumpy]

Its good that we'll all be on the same level playing field for once, finally we have a Euro comp to be proud of.

All this talk of 3rd string sides just goes to prove how poor the fans have been treated in the Rabo.

[quinsforever]

"fair representation by nation"

seems pretty fair to me in the new format. each nation will probably have half its top-tier sides in the new HC, with welsh and irish sides likely to have 5 out of 8 going through.

quins...it might have passed you by yet again...but Welsh sides have absolutely no significance to me.

"5 from 8" has no meaning.  It means nothing.  

"Each Nation will probably have Half its top tier sides."

Only bit of interest in that to me is that you're saying Ireland will probably (and only probably! - not written into any contract) have Two whilst England will undoubtedly/certainly (regardless of seasonal form) have Six.
How many Wales have interests me less than indeed it perhaps interests you, as I seem to recall you saying you love Welsh/English clashes in whatever form (Club or International).

irfu will probably have 3 clubs in HC out of 3 and a half (Connacht's budget is half that of the other provinces as decreed by irfu). happy days for you then SF

[Guest]

Its good that we'll all be on the same level playing field for once, finally we have a Euro comp to be proud of.

All this talk of 3rd string sides just goes to prove how poor the fans have been treated in the Rabo.

Not just yet we don't. France and Italy might have put a spanner in the works   

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Its good that we'll all be on the same level playing field for once, finally we have a Euro comp to be proud of.

All this talk of 3rd string sides just goes to prove how poor the fans have been treated in the Rabo.

Scumpy, you're not getting any bites today - might want to fish in a different pool?

[Scrumpy]

But I thought you were after helping the international sides Fly, or did you mean that you only want what's best for Ireland?

That's it isn't it!

For Celtic fans its alright to only think of you Province/Region and your Country, but If English fans do the same we are called Greedy and  showing a disregard to the game from the very top to the Grassroots, oh and hanging our Celtic cousins out to dry.

Double standards!

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