Scotland and the summer tour!

by Majestic83 Mon 17 Mar 2014, 6:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

Games:

Saturday 7 June:
United States of America v Scotland
BBVA Compass Stadium, Houston, Texas

Saturday 14 June:
Canada v Scotland
BMO Field, Toronto, Ontario

Saturday 21 June:
Argentina v Scotland
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba

Saturday 28 June:
South Africa v Scotland
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth

***
Now the 6 nations are over there will be major changes for Scotland between now and the next international.
Vern Cotter will be the head coach for the next test with scott Johnson moving to director of rugby. Unclear yet if Cotter will bring in his own coaching team or whether he will inherit the current crop.

The 6 nations has been a disaster for Scotland but I still believe Scotland has some very good players and a lot of the problems in the 6 nations stem from poor coaching, tactics, very bad selection and man management. Glasgow regularly beat the top Rambo teams, Edinburgh can as well and a lot of the exile players are playing at the very top teams in England and France and winning week in week out but for some reason when they pull on the blue jersey something just isn't there.
This will all change when Cotter arrives. Speaking to Chris Paterson and al kellock a few weeks ago they can't wait for cotter to arrive as they say his coaching style and manner is that of a modern day Jim Telfer and they believe exactly what this squad need.

From a playing point of view there are a few players that should be dropped and not selected for the summer tour. For me they are Ryan Wilson, Tim Swinson, Greig Laidlaw.
Wilson is good at number 8 for Glasgow but is not a 6 at international level. We have 3 far better 6's available yet none were picked. Would Wilson get in the team at 8? For me, nope. Denton, Beattie are far better options and I would say Ali Hogg is also far better than wilson. Why was he picked? Because Johnson thought he was a good "kid". It's not wilson a fault he was picked out of position but there are far better options.
Tim Swinson was very poor compared to his form on last years summer tour. He didn't seem to have the same grunt or energy and was ver ineffective. Again there are other options at lock like Gilchrist who has improved a lot this season and has a harder edge about him now and also johnnycake gray.
Greig Laidlaw was put in the autumn tests and even worse in the 6 nations. His decision making was poor, his service was extremely slow. He offers no break or snipe at all and his main attribute his goal kicking has been poor. Custer looks far sharper, when he has played and deserves a shot. He also has very good leadership qualities. Grayson Hart is also in top form and deserves a chance on recent form. Quick pass, physical and knows the way to the line.

The Backrow was the biggest concern during the 6 nations, it was unbalanced and very off pace. The back row needs balance and a good back row will have 3 players with different qualities, a scavenger who makes a nuisance of himself and tackles his heart out. A hard worker who will do the unseen stuff at the breakdown and then a big athletic ball carrier who will run all day making the hard yards. Scotland have these options but went for three players who were all very similar. It didn't work and must be changed.

The summer tour we play Canada, USA, Argentina and South Africa. The first two teams we "should" beat comfortably the other two will be tough and physical. They will probably take a squad of between 32 and 35.
I'd go with 6 props
Ryan grant
Ali Dickinson
Jon welsh but has to move back to loose head where he is far more destructive.
Euan murray
Geoff cross
Moray low not great during 6 nations but would like to see what difference cotter can make.

Squad

North America

LH - Allan, Reid, Traynor
H - Bryce, Lawson, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Hamilton, Low
6/8 - Beattie, Brown, Strokosh
7 - Cowan

SH - Hart, Laidlaw
SO - Heathcoat, Russell
IC - Taylor
OC -Bennett
W - Evans, Lamont, Maitland, Visser
FB - Hogg

Argentina / SA

LH - Dickinson, Reid
H - Bryce, Ford, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low, Welsh
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Swinson
6/8 - Denton, Harley,
7 - Fusaro

SH - Hart, Pyrgos
SO - Jackson, Weir
IC - Horne
OC - ?
W - Fife, Maitland, Seymour
FB - Hogg, Murchie

by Nematode Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:47 pm

Don't know if anyone caught this try by Max Evans for Castres vs Toulon. Interesting he was being picked to start for Castres in the Top 14 final - they must regard him pretty highly:

If he's on form with Castres, and we're weak in the backline, could it be worth giving him a shot starting?

by **George Carlin** Tue 03 Jun 2014, 8:12 am

justified sinner wrote:Hoi, I'll have you know I'm old enough to be your father and if I was from Glasgow your grandfather.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 03 Jun 2014, 8:57 am

Heathcote and Jackson have swapped tour legs now - Jackon will be in US/Can party, Heathcote in SH squad

by **RDW** Tue 03 Jun 2014, 9:07 am

Old news Asbo! Hug

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:04 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Old news Asbo!

You know how my senility requires me to repeat things to you several times minimum!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:31 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Old news Asbo!

As you know, my senility requires me to repeat things to you interminably!

by GLove39 Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:34 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Old news Asbo!

As you know, my senility requires me to repeat things to you interminably!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 03 Jun 2014, 5:02 pm

I'm hearing on the grape vine that Rhubarb and young Tom Heathcote may swap legs of the tour - probs as a result of their relative club moves over the summer

by **RDW** Tue 03 Jun 2014, 5:06 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'm hearing on the grape vine that Rhubarb and young Tom Heathcote may swap legs of the tour - probs as a result of their relative club moves over the summer

Well this changes everything!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 03 Jun 2014, 5:57 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'm hearing on the grape vine that Rhubarb and young Tom Heathcote may swap legs of the tour - probs as a result of their relative club moves over the summer

Well this changes everything!

Had you heard that too, RDW?

by **RDW** Tue 03 Jun 2014, 6:02 pm

No, was a bit of a surprise!

by **George Carlin** Tue 03 Jun 2014, 6:03 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'm hearing on the grape vine that Rhubarb and young Tom Heathcote may swap legs of the tour - probs as a result of their relative club moves over the summer

Well this changes everything!

Had you heard that too, RDW?

No. Thank god you're here, Asbo.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 03 Jun 2014, 6:05 pm

I reckon that a number of players in this North American touring party will be deemed to require a rest this coming weekend (Gray Snr, Brown, Maitland, Evans, poss Russell)

LH - Allan, Reid, Traynor
H - Bryce, Lawson, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low
SR - Gilchrist, Gray Snr, Hamilton, Low
6/8 - Beattie, Brown, Strokosh
7 - Cowan

SH - Hart, Laidlaw
SO - Jackson, Russell
IC - Taylor
OC -Bennett
W - Evans, Lamont, Maitland, Visser
FB - Hogg

So I'd be expecting a team something like this:

15 Hogg
14 Lamont
13 Bennett
12 Taylor
11 Visser
10 Jackson or Russell
9 Laidlaw (c)
1 Reid
2 Lawson
3 Cross
4 Gilchrist
5 Hamilton
6 Strokosch
7 Cowan
8 Beattie

with a bench of Allan, MacArthur, Low, Gray Snr, Low, Hart, Heathcote or Russell, Maitland

Braveheart

by **George Carlin** Tue 03 Jun 2014, 6:17 pm

You have to figure that team would be good enough to beat the Eagles.

Mind you, let's think about whom the USA could put out there. From the European clubs alone, off the top of my head you could have Lamositele, Smith and Wyles (Sarries), Manoa and Dolan (Saints), Niua and Isles (Glasgow), Suniula (Waps), Ngwenya (Biarritz) and Scully (Tigers). It's not rubbish. Erm

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 03 Jun 2014, 8:17 pm

Has Manoa made himself available?

by reallybored Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:43 pm

Despite the ridiculousness of the whole tour, I'm very excited to finally see us under Cotter. I know he's only had a couple days with the squad but felt rudderless since Robinson left.

Hoggy on a dry track is always great value and will be good to see Visser back too.

by **RDW** Wed 04 Jun 2014, 7:37 am

Reading in the Scotsman that Cotter's first training session was a bit of a beasting, with him really setting out his stall in terms of coaching philosophy.

It is good to hear, but I do hope he gets the balance right because he's going to have to consider player welfare in his time as coach, and international Windows can't always be used as beasting sessions if the players have arrived straight from a tough run of games with their clubs.

In other news, Johnnie Beattie has been fit for 6 weeks but just hasn't had any games to play.

Sounds like a lot of the squad - very much lacking match practice.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 04 Jun 2014, 9:02 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Reading in the Scotsman that Cotter's first training session was a bit of a beasting, with him really setting out his stall in terms of coaching philosophy.

Good to know. For too long now Scotland have been getting bullied. Just a couple of seasons ago our pack was capable of matching anyone, nowadays we are getting nilled at home and trounced by Wales in the 6N was one of the lowest points of Scottish rugby I can ever recall.

Getting hammered at training serves it's purpose in giving some of the premadonna's a wakeup call. Sure you don't want that sort of session every time but I think we can all agree that what happened in the 6N was unacceptable and clearly the team is much better than the perfomances they produced.

I hope Cotter is the key to unlock our potential. A Backline of Russel, Scott, Dunbar, Visser, Maitland and Hogg will score tries if you give them enough ball. It's up to our forwards to rediscover their killer instinct. When they do we'll be a fine rugby team I think.

by **George Carlin** Wed 04 Jun 2014, 9:06 am

Radge - you've been very quiet lately.

Cotter is not stupid and he knows that a lot of players have come off the back of long seasons. Nathan Hines has said in interviews a number of times that Cotter was a hard bar steward but was almost always right, which annoyed Wagga a lot. It is of course also true that whilst some players will be held together with masking tape, a lot of others (Beattie being a great example) really need to push themselves in training as they will be lacking in match sharpness.

Anyone know when the USA team will be announced?

And do people want specific threads for each tour match or are we happy just filling up this thread?

by **RDW** Wed 04 Jun 2014, 9:10 am

It does sound like he is a tough son of a gun and can't see anyone messing with him, which I agree is something we desperately need.

Denton, Hogg (rumoured) and to a lesser extent the likes of Beattie and Visser will get a real reality check unless they buckle down and work bloody hard for the team - there will be no room for prima donnas in Cotter's setup.

by Captain_Sensible Wed 04 Jun 2014, 11:46 am

Team to be announced tomorrow evening (GMT)

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 04 Jun 2014, 2:26 pm

George Carlin wrote:Radge - you've been very quiet lately.

Cotter is not stupid and he knows that a lot of players have come off the back of long seasons. Nathan Hines has said in interviews a number of times that Cotter was a hard bar steward but was almost always right, which annoyed Wagga a lot. It is of course also true that whilst some players will be held together with masking tape, a lot of others (Beattie being a great example) really need to push themselves in training as they will be lacking in match sharpness.

Anyone know when the USA team will be announced?

And do people want specific threads for each tour match or are we happy just filling up this thread?

Real work + Moving house = not much free time. Hopefully my contribution will be on an upward trend.

by tigertattie Wed 04 Jun 2014, 2:48 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:It does sound like he is a tough son of a gun and can't see anyone messing with him, which I agree is something we desperately need.

Denton, Hogg (rumoured) and to a lesser extent the likes of Beattie and Visser will get a real reality check unless they buckle down and work bloody hard for the team - there will be no room for prima donnas in Cotter's setup.

Visser yes, but Beattie has always been one to push himself hard in training.

I think Cotter jsut wanted to stamp his authourityyyyyyyy on the players so he could establish himself as the top dog. Nowt wrong with that. I don't think every session will involve players spewing their breakfasts up!

Also. According to ASBO, the Scotland Squad my be getting split into two teams for the summer tour! Anyone else heard this?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 04 Jun 2014, 2:58 pm

tigertattie wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:It does sound like he is a tough son of a gun and can't see anyone messing with him, which I agree is something we desperately need.

Denton, Hogg (rumoured) and to a lesser extent the likes of Beattie and Visser will get a real reality check unless they buckle down and work bloody hard for the team - there will be no room for prima donnas in Cotter's setup.

Visser yes, but Beattie has always been one to push himself hard in training.

I think Cotter jsut wanted to stamp his authourityyyyyyyy on the players so he could establish himself as the top dog. Nowt wrong with that. I don't think every session will involve players spewing their breakfasts up!

Also. According to ASBO, the Scotland Squad my be getting split into two teams for the summer tour! Anyone else heard this?

Good man, always secure outside confirmation of my insider titbits.

On a slight aside, I'm also hearing that Rhubbrd Jackson and Tom Heathcote may swap south4north tours

by **George Carlin** Wed 04 Jun 2014, 3:01 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:It does sound like he is a tough son of a gun and can't see anyone messing with him, which I agree is something we desperately need.

Denton, Hogg (rumoured) and to a lesser extent the likes of Beattie and Visser will get a real reality check unless they buckle down and work bloody hard for the team - there will be no room for prima donnas in Cotter's setup.

Visser yes, but Beattie has always been one to push himself hard in training.

I think Cotter jsut wanted to stamp his authourityyyyyyyy on the players so he could establish himself as the top dog. Nowt wrong with that. I don't think every session will involve players spewing their breakfasts up!

Also. According to ASBO, the Scotland Squad my be getting split into two teams for the summer tour! Anyone else heard this?

Good man, always secure outside confirmation of my insider titbits.

On a slight aside, I'm also hearing that Rhubbrd Jackson and Tom Heathcote may swap south4north tours

Well, I'll believe that when I see it.
Scotland and the summer tour! - Page 11 Dougal10

by tigertattie Wed 04 Jun 2014, 4:19 pm

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh go on............................

by reallybored Wed 04 Jun 2014, 6:56 pm

Saw a quote from Joe Schmidt, saying the Scottish players are in for a shock when they realise their coach is more intimidating than the opposition.

by **RDW** Wed 04 Jun 2014, 6:58 pm

Trying to figure out what makes that a good thing.....I'm sure it is though!

by reallybored Wed 04 Jun 2014, 7:14 pm

Pretty sure Telfer had a similar effect.

It's what we need desperately in my opinion, we can all tolerate a defeat (plenty of practise). But we won't tolerate another limp display like the Calcutta Cup match this year.

Minimum requirement is 100% commitment.

by **RDW** Wed 04 Jun 2014, 7:48 pm

D-day for Rennie tonight - although he's still injured.

Playing in a monsoon won't help them rack up the tries though!

by **RDW** Wed 04 Jun 2014, 9:32 pm

Looks like Rennie will be playing in the championship next season.

Baws.

by GLove39 Wed 04 Jun 2014, 10:02 pm

Bass indeed, hope he's got a get out clause in his contract?
Also Nicky Robinson, missing 13 points from the tee picard

by **RDW** Wed 04 Jun 2014, 10:06 pm

I'd be very surprised if he did.

Maybe they could 'loan' him somewhere else for a season?

What struck me most was how poor both teams were - there really is a gulf in quality from the top level to the championship. In my mind it well and truly answers the question of whether a championship player should be realistically considered for Scotland.

by Majestic83 Wed 04 Jun 2014, 10:43 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Looks like Rennie will be playing in the championship next season.

Baws.

Yep not the best news from a scottish point of view. Think he might stay loyal to Bristol and stick with them. A couple others scots there too, Kyle traynor who has had a cracking season and Mitch eadie the number 8.

by alive555 Thu 05 Jun 2014, 5:12 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'd be very surprised if he did.

Maybe they could 'loan' him somewhere else for a season?

What struck me most was how poor both teams were - there really is a gulf in quality from the top level to the championship. In my mind it well and truly answers the question of whether a championship player should be realistically considered for Scotland.

why a surprise ? its pretty standard clause for a player joining a lower league club. If he didnt have a get out clause or buy out clause he was ridiculously poorly advised., even in that scenario he could negotiate one now at his cost, depends on how ambitious he is. Even the SRU could step in but unlikely given he just left a scottish club in need of a quality flanker. well done edinburgh and sru Doh

Also at 28 this is his best and prob last time to make money and further his career - so to do that he needs to be playing for a top club. end of Hug

I personally would be very surprised and disappointed if hes there next year.

by **George Carlin** Thu 05 Jun 2014, 7:39 am

It is a bummer for Rennie (mind you, this was always a possibility and he would have known that) but can we also take a moment to applaud another Scots evergreen, Gordon Ross, who at 36 has been absolutely instrumental to Welsh getting back into the Premiership. Well done, feller. I hope that he's given one more season to enjoy playing at the top flight.

by **RDW** Thu 05 Jun 2014, 8:31 am

alive555 wrote:
why a surprise ? its pretty standard clause for a player joining a lower league club. If he didnt have a get out clause or buy out clause he was ridiculously poorly advised., even in that scenario he could negotiate one now at his cost, depends on how ambitious he is. Even the SRU could step in but unlikely given he just left a scottish club in need of a quality flanker. well done edinburgh and sru

It may be a standard thing, but I'd be surprised if Rennie suddenly turns his back on Bristol given how he has been treated by them so far and the comments he made when signing - saying how he loved his time at Bristol and was looking forward to spending his future with them.

It is a massive moral dilemma for sure!

by alive555 Thu 05 Jun 2014, 8:40 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
alive555 wrote:
why a surprise ? its pretty standard clause for a player joining a lower league club. If he didnt have a get out clause or buy out clause he was ridiculously poorly advised., even in that scenario he could negotiate one now at his cost, depends on how ambitious he is. Even the SRU could step in but unlikely given he just left a scottish club in need of a quality flanker. well done edinburgh and sru

It may be a standard thing, but I'd be surprised if Rennie suddenly turns his back on Bristol given how he has been treated by them so far and the comments he made when signing - saying how he loved his time at Bristol and was looking forward to spending his future with them.

It is a massive moral dilemma for sure!

in life love for ones club traditionally has been markedly less than ones love for ones wallet. raspberry

by Dorothy_Mantooth Thu 05 Jun 2014, 8:57 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
What struck me most was how poor both teams were - there really is a gulf in quality from the top level to the championship. In my mind it well and truly answers the question of whether a championship player should be realistically considered for Scotland.

Not according to one poster on the championship thread. He says that the two legs was a better standard than any game he had seen in the Rabo this season. Shocked

I would think a totally established international could in theory drop into the Championship and maintain his Scotland place. However I don't know how someone on the edges of the squad can push themsleves into the team on the basis of performances at that level.

by **George Carlin** Thu 05 Jun 2014, 10:20 am

https://www.606v2.com/t54151-scotland-summer-tour-game-1-usa-v-scotland-7-june

by **RDW** Mon 09 Jun 2014, 8:19 am

Well we've only had one game and the injury list is mounting, most worryingly in positions of relative weakness.

Geoff Cross - his father died, plus he has rib damage
Jim Hamilton - ankle
Duncan Taylor - calf

So looking at the squad left we have:

North America

LH - Allan, Reid, Traynor
H - Bryce, Lawson, McArthur
TH - Low
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Low
6/8 - Beattie, Brown, Strokosh
7 - Cowan

SH - Hart, Laidlaw
SO - Heathcoat, Russell
IC -
OC -Bennett
W - Evans, Lamont, Maitland, Visser
FB - Hogg

Leaving us light at tighthead and centre.

Suspect we will see Lamont moved to 12 and Bennett to 13, as I think a Jackson-Russell-Bennett combo is a bight lightweight and green for my liking.

I am also assuming Welsh will be called up, as we can't really rely on Alex Allan to cover tighthead.

Anyway the squad I'd like to see:

Reid
McArthur
Low
Gray
Gilchrist
Brown (please please please please please play him at 6!!!)
Cowan (needs another chance)
Beattie

Laidlaw
Jackson
Visser
Lamont
Bennett
Maitland
Hogg

Subs - Traynor, Bryce, Welsh, Low, Strokosh, Hart, Russell, Evans

by funnyExiledScot Mon 09 Jun 2014, 11:54 am

I'd switch Russell and Lamont. The Glasgow fans have assured me that both Russell and Bennett are capable of channelling Brian Lima in defence, and frankly if we are concerned with their defence then international rugby isn't going to be for them. This is the time in my opinion to see what these guys are made of, and for Scotland to remove blunt instruments from the midfield. Sure, I probably wouldn't use that combination against South Africa or the All Blacks, but with all due respect this is Canada. Bennett needs a game, and sticking Lamont at 12 just chokes off quality ball for the outside backs. Yes, there are ways around it using mispasses etc. and bring Hogg in as a second receiver from the back, but long term Scotland needs to proper distributor at 12 if we are going to develop, and now is the time to build for that.

Otherwise I agree with your squad.

by tigertattie Mon 09 Jun 2014, 12:21 pm

Its a bloomin tough one!

I'd not want to stick Russell in at 12 as I dont want him to end up with Paterson syndrome!

He is a 10, and currently the form 10 that we have. Let him develop at 10!

However, we have simply run out of 12s and Russell has played 12 before!

You've also got to think about the Arg and SA games! Lamont at 12 with Bennett at 13 should (should) be enough to see off Canada. Do you rish injuring Russell ar 12 against Canada or would you want to "rest" him for the Arg and SA games???

I'm really worried that come the Bokkes our backline could be laidlaw-Weir-Lamont-Evans. I shudder at that prospect!

by **RDW** Mon 09 Jun 2014, 12:24 pm

Well Laidlaw and evans will have left the tour by that point so we won't!

by tigertattie Mon 09 Jun 2014, 12:28 pm

Ah well, lets go hammer and tong then

We could really run out of 12s in the series though! Shlong may well end up playing in the centre for us agsint the two tougher teams!

I know Horne is in the 2nd squad for the 2nd half of the tour, but is he fully fit? He came off in the Rabo final injured did he not?

by funnyExiledScot Mon 09 Jun 2014, 12:37 pm

Horne should come straight in to the side at 12 and play against both Argentina and South Africa. If he isn't fit then he shouldn't be touring.

I hear what you say about Russell being moved to 12 rather than sticking at 10, but it's a case of needs must against Canada. I appreciate completely that it isn't ideal.

by Captain_Sensible Mon 09 Jun 2014, 12:38 pm

tigertattie wrote: Ah well, lets go hammer and tong then

We could really run out of 12s in the series though! Shlong may well end up playing in the centre for us agsint the two tougher teams!

I know Horne is in the 2nd squad for the 2nd half of the tour, but is he fully fit? He came off in the Rabo final injured did he not?

Twas a blood injury. He should be fine fitness-wise.

by Captain_Sensible Mon 09 Jun 2014, 1:23 pm

Horne and Swinson join the squad for Canada - http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/14/06/09/horne-and-swinson-join-scotland-summer-tour

by cakeordeath Mon 09 Jun 2014, 1:32 pm

Saracens must love us just now.

by **BigGee** Mon 09 Jun 2014, 1:41 pm

Captain_Sensible wrote:Horne and Swinson join the squad for Canada - http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/14/06/09/horne-and-swinson-join-scotland-summer-tour

No further cover for TH, I guess they must feel that one of the others can cover it. has Allen played at TH as well, I don't think the others have?

Hopefully this puts the lamont to 12 theory to bed once and for all. Still not completely clear what the team might be though. It would be hard to see either of them starting as they will be getting there late, jet lag etc. Guess we just have to wait and see

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