Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
+10
The Great Aukster
geoff999rugby
Cyril
profitius
wayne
geoff998rugby
thebandwagonsociety
Brendan
AsLongAsBut100ofUs
Portnoy's Complaint
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: Club Rugby
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Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Following on from my other post about the fog of what's going to happen in Europe next year, I'd like to debate what I think is the worst aspect of the 'old' seedings system which in my view creates and/or fosters imbalanced pools in the HEC.
As stated many times, I'd prefer the EuroTable system based on the Uefa rankings calculations http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php
It relies on current form in both league and Europe.
But I'd tweak it to extend over a full twelve months. But I'd continue give more emphasis on recent matches than the older ones.
As stated many times, I'd prefer the EuroTable system based on the Uefa rankings calculations http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php
It relies on current form in both league and Europe.
But I'd tweak it to extend over a full twelve months. But I'd continue give more emphasis on recent matches than the older ones.
Last edited by Portnoy's Complaint on Thu 20 Mar 2014, 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 74
Location : Felixstowe
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
From what I've read, it sounds as tho a move of that type is being planned
AsLongAsBut100ofUs- Posts : 14129
Join date : 2011-03-26
Age : 112
Location : Devon/London
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
From what I've read, Asbo, I've learned not to believe what I've read.
Especially the unprinted stuff that isn't written between the lines.
Especially the unprinted stuff that isn't written between the lines.
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 74
Location : Felixstowe
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
I would like to have teams divided into two pots.
Top 10 in pot 1 and rest in pot 2
2 seeded teams in each group.
Cause lets be honest the if table stay as is you could have
Toulon, Toulouse, Munster & Sarries
And
Exeter, Scarlets/Edinburgh, Zebre and Castre
If we cribbed about groups before it will be much worse with open draw
Top 10 in pot 1 and rest in pot 2
2 seeded teams in each group.
Cause lets be honest the if table stay as is you could have
Toulon, Toulouse, Munster & Sarries
And
Exeter, Scarlets/Edinburgh, Zebre and Castre
If we cribbed about groups before it will be much worse with open draw
Brendan- Posts : 4253
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Looking through that list I'd agree with the Top 10 but not too sure about the ordering within it. Taking Pro12, Jeff and Top14 teams out of the list and comparing their order it makes sense, I just don't know about the Irish teams being up so far and then how the Top14 slot in at the level they do.
thebandwagonsociety- Posts : 2901
Join date : 2011-06-02
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
thebandwagonsociety wrote:Looking through that list I'd agree with the Top 10 but not too sure about the ordering within it. Taking Pro12, Jeff and Top14 teams out of the list and comparing their order it makes sense, I just don't know about the Irish teams being up so far and then how the Top14 slot in at the level they do.
It is only a snapshot of one week but recently it's a representative sample.
The leagues are not treated differently*.
It's just a results-based algorithm.
* Maybe they are - in respect that rewards
link from the same website as the OP.EuroTable wrote:Strength of the opponent (more points are awarded when playing against a top-ranked opponent as opposed to a weaker one).
France this season has a preponderance of home wins which has caused a clustering of the teams and therefore ranking points? I dunno.
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 74
Location : Felixstowe
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
thebandwagonsociety wrote:Looking through that list I'd agree with the Top 10 but not too sure about the ordering within it. Taking Pro12, Jeff and Top14 teams out of the list and comparing their order it makes sense, I just don't know about the Irish teams being up so far and then how the Top14 slot in at the level they do.
Taking my own club I would suggest you can only truly test that in head to head matches.
Ulster got the better of Saints the last time they were in the same group but we are behind them.
Saracens - we will find out in April - if we lose I suspect Saracens will go above us. Saracens lost 2 games in the groups, Ulster none.
In our last 4 games against Leicester we have won 3, in our last 4 games against Bath we have won 4.
Now Bath have improved but have yet to do it in Europe.
It seems like a fair balance to me
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
Join date : 2011-06-09
Age : 70
Location : Belfast/Ardglass
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
geoff998rugby wrote:thebandwagonsociety wrote:Looking through that list I'd agree with the Top 10 but not too sure about the ordering within it. Taking Pro12, Jeff and Top14 teams out of the list and comparing their order it makes sense, I just don't know about the Irish teams being up so far and then how the Top14 slot in at the level they do.
Taking my own club I would suggest you can only truly test that in head to head matches.
Ulster got the better of Saints the last time they were in the same group but we are behind them.
Saracens - we will find out in April - if we lose I suspect Saracens will go above us. Saracens lost 2 games in the groups, Ulster none.
In our last 4 games against Leicester we have won 3, in our last 4 games against Bath we have won 4.
Now Bath have improved but have yet to do it in Europe.
It seems like a fair balance to me
Hmm, didn't Sarries beat you in your last head-to-head?
AsLongAsBut100ofUs- Posts : 14129
Join date : 2011-03-26
Age : 112
Location : Devon/London
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Hmm indeed. The ET rankings don't count previous meetings between clubs played beyond the past thirty games.
What happened beyond that becomes irrelevant.
It's purely a measure of recent results both domestic and European.
As the business end of Europe and domestic competitions approaches, more credit will be given to the winners. So the best teams will benefit for their successes this year and previous historic influences will lost.
At the end of the season, a representative form book would be drawn from which imo would be a far sounder basis for 'fairer', 'balanced' pool draws.
There will still be groups of death and strollers, but it won't be the fault the crazed ERC which was built on results solely in Europe and from as much as four years ago.
What happened beyond that becomes irrelevant.
It's purely a measure of recent results both domestic and European.
As the business end of Europe and domestic competitions approaches, more credit will be given to the winners. So the best teams will benefit for their successes this year and previous historic influences will lost.
At the end of the season, a representative form book would be drawn from which imo would be a far sounder basis for 'fairer', 'balanced' pool draws.
There will still be groups of death and strollers, but it won't be the fault the crazed ERC which was built on results solely in Europe and from as much as four years ago.
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 74
Location : Felixstowe
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
I basically disagree with all above, you qualify for this competition through meritocracy of 3 Leagues, so therefore every pool MUST have one from each League with a second from one, and the seedings must be the top of each league, seeded joint first. The winner of the play off games should automatically be in one of the top seeded teams groups, although as is alluded to above it will be the ranking system used
wayne- Posts : 3183
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Wales
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
I think it was Gerry Thornley who said this week that the change in the seedings are damaging the competition. He gave the example of clubs who are now basically out of Europe and who are playing their second or third string teams. Theres no punishment for them doing that.
The old seedings were the best because they rewarded the teams who played best in European competition and not the teams who put out their B sides in Europe to concentrate on the league.
The old seedings were the best because they rewarded the teams who played best in European competition and not the teams who put out their B sides in Europe to concentrate on the league.
profitius- Posts : 4726
Join date : 2012-01-25
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
profitius wrote:I think it was Gerry Thornley who said
Stop!
Cyril- Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
On this Gerry is right
In the old competition you still had something to play for after losing 3 matches in the new system the games are pointless.
That doesn't help the competition
In the old competition you still had something to play for after losing 3 matches in the new system the games are pointless.
That doesn't help the competition
geoff999rugby- Posts : 5923
Join date : 2012-01-19
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
In your dreams sunshine.geoff999rugby wrote:On this Gerry is right
In the old competition you still had something to play for after losing 3 matches in the new system the games are pointless.
That doesn't help the competition
Cyril- Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
This has been discussed on the Saints thread recently - is Gerry a reader?
It seems that all the Celtic teams' predictions at the inception of the new competitions are unfortunately proving to be 100% accurate.
It seems that all the Celtic teams' predictions at the inception of the new competitions are unfortunately proving to be 100% accurate.
The Great Aukster- Posts : 5246
Join date : 2011-06-09
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Since this thread is live -
Fantastic gesture from Racing's supporters - they have supplied Munster's Supporters Club with a list of their fans who are willing to host Munster fans for the rescheduled game in Paris.
Fantastic gesture from Racing's supporters - they have supplied Munster's Supporters Club with a list of their fans who are willing to host Munster fans for the rescheduled game in Paris.
Sin é- Posts : 13725
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Cyril wrote:In your dreams sunshine.geoff999rugby wrote:On this Gerry is right
In the old competition you still had something to play for after losing 3 matches in the new system the games are pointless.
That doesn't help the competition
No fact - Exeter for example have nothing to play for.
Under the old system they could win 2 matches and finish 2nd, or at least 3rd, thereby improve their seeding next year.
In the new competition it does matter if they win the two games 50-0 or lose the two games 50-0 it is totally irrelevant to next years seedings.
This will inevitably led to a lot more dull games in rounds 5 and 6 as team use them as glorified training sessions
geoff999rugby- Posts : 5923
Join date : 2012-01-19
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Under the old rules they'd be doing the same concentrating on qualifying for the next year.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31381
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Yes they would but there would be some value in winning the later rounds.
If qualification was fairly secure for example they would have a real reason to try and win the matches.
Now those games are totally meaningless
If qualification was fairly secure for example they would have a real reason to try and win the matches.
Now those games are totally meaningless
geoff999rugby- Posts : 5923
Join date : 2012-01-19
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
I don't think the old rules were perfect, but I do think they give more teams something to play for, for longer.
Under the old way finishing 3rd made a difference to ranking points for next year,
Groups of 4 seam to work in football and WRC, I think though every 2nd place team needs to qualify to make it competitive.
Under the old way finishing 3rd made a difference to ranking points for next year,
Groups of 4 seam to work in football and WRC, I think though every 2nd place team needs to qualify to make it competitive.
Kingshu- Posts : 4127
Join date : 2011-05-30
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
They were meaningless before as well. You would more likely see clubs playing full strength in their leagues where it continued to matter than a comp that was done and dusted.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31381
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Nobody is saying that teams would give everything to finish 3rd rather than 4th in the group.
Neither situation is ideal but to make a less than perfect situation into a totally meaningless situation has to be regarded as a retrograde step.
For me the solution is a ranking based on a combination of the old European ranking alongside the league position.
Neither situation is ideal but to make a less than perfect situation into a totally meaningless situation has to be regarded as a retrograde step.
For me the solution is a ranking based on a combination of the old European ranking alongside the league position.
geoff999rugby- Posts : 5923
Join date : 2012-01-19
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Actually Exeter were in the position of having nothing to play for in the final round of 2013 and yet they went at it with Leinster, only losing 29-20. I haven't known many English teams to pack it in at the pool stage. Seems to be a recent phenomenon.
Engine#4- Posts : 579
Join date : 2013-09-27
Re: Euro club competition: Rankings and seedings
Engine#4 wrote:Actually Exeter were in the position of having nothing to play for in the final round of 2013 and yet they went at it with Leinster, only losing 29-20. I haven't known many English teams to pack it in at the pool stage. Seems to be a recent phenomenon.
Go and ask Geordie Falcon if that is true? His team doesn't even START the pool stages with anywhere near their first choice team, and haven't for YEARS.
wayne- Posts : 3183
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Wales
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