Euro club competition: Quarter and Semi finals

This is seemingly a forlorn OP as no-one seems to have any evidence of
a. what type of competition apart from that it will consist of 20 sides: Six Jeff, Six T14, 1 each Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Italian, Three more Celtalians plus One other.
b. Seedings - No information - although they affect the pools
c. Pools - No information (supposition of 5x4 pools) - although they affect the Quarters

So let's discuss the next stage: the 1/4 final qualifiers will there be any format changes?
If the PRL have been involved, with their record of indolent complacency, they wouldn't have even thought about them.

Will the same old home ties format be retained?
Will there be a home/away format?
Will the Semis continue to be dependent effectively/affected by pool results?

You kind of said it yourself PC- we don't really know yet.

Notch wrote:You kind of said it yourself PC- we don't really know yet.

+1

We can speculate on what we would like. Or what we think will happen but it's just speculation. If the rumours are true, wait a week and it'll all be revealled.

That is sort of the point.

There are so many layers to the cake.

All we'll get is a bite of the slice we're handed.

We and people like us are the consumers who pay in one way or another.

I and people like me are not happy to be bossed around by an almost homeopathic-strength concoction of interested parties.

Is/was anyone truly happy with the old HEC format as an ideal one?

I'm hoping that the Amlin parachute isn't carried through to the new tournament - I recognise its commercial value, but it seems to lessen the integrity of the competition and leads to more dead rubbers in the pool stages.

I also recognise that it's pretty daft to have the majority of top european teams sitting twiddling their thumbs in 3 prime weekends at the pointy end of the season. So I'd propose something like Plate, Bowl and Shield knockouts similar to 7's. It could be the next best 8 teams going into quarters, but, as a compromise, I'd go for best 8 into Cup quarters (both competitions), next 4 into Plate semis, similar for Bowl and Shield (may have to call them something different for Amlinv2 - Knife, Fork and Spoon, maybe.)

This would make the Euro season finale exclusive to the 2 Cup finals, but in the Cup semis weekend, there would be 4 Cup semis, and 6 underlying finals. It would also minimise dead rubbers in the pool stages.

dubya wrote:Knife, Fork and Spoon, maybe

If it were Knife, Fork and Cup.

I'm no marketing guru like, but I reckon that I'd identify a potential sponsor for all three.

Will they introduce a sympathy cap that garuntees at least one from each nation gets to the quarters?

Can someone remind me of the current semi-final rules if one or more home quarter-finalist loses?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Can someone remind me of the current semi-final rules if one or more home quarter-finalist loses?

That has no impact on the semi-final whatsoever. "Home advantage" for the semi-final is determined by a draw at the same time as the quarter-finals. The winner of one of two randomly selected quarter-finals will have a "home" draw. So it doesn't matter; the winner of Ulster vs Saracens and Toulon vs Leinster will be playing in their home country if they win.

Of course its not a home draw at all, because you can't play it in your home stadium. It's just played in your home country, which makes it slightly easier for your fans to travel but you don't necessarily get any preferential treatment with regards to tickets etc. I hope that this is retained. It makes sense.

There is a potential, but long enough shot, that both semi's are played in Ireland. If that was the case would both games be in Lansdowne Road or would stadium spec's allow one of the games to be played elsewhere.

It could also easily be possible that the semi's would be in London and Marsaille.

Both would be at the Aviva on different days - I am 99% certain

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:You kind of said it yourself PC- we don't really know yet.

+1

We can speculate on what we would like. Or what we think will happen but it's just speculation. If the rumours are true, wait a week and it'll all be revealled.

I speculate it's all going to fall through just before signing again.  Somebody somewhere is going to look for an extra line in the announcement which specifies who 'won' - they are all afterall sporting people, ain't they?  It was a game.  They'll all be out like strutting cocks in a henhousewhoreranch when the deal is done, saying it was them that 'won' and that they should be declared victors.

Last I heard was it hasn't been signed yet because the PRO12 unions haven't decided how the money will be split between them yet.

I think it was MunsterMansForum. Can't remember the source (or if there was one at all).

Yep the Welsh want it split by teams in the Pro12 - the others want it split by Union

The Welsh have a point. The league subsidises the Scottish and Italians as they bring a lot less to the table in terms of TV rights than the Welsh and Irish. But I still believe that giving them half the money the Irish and Welsh get is only going to create a situation where those Unions can never afford to develop their teams to a point where they can actually generate similar interest from broadcasters etc. It's in our interest to subsidise them, and to subsidise the Welsh from an Irish PoV, so that they can provide quality opposition and increase the competitiveness of the league. We can do so knowing that if the Unions fortunes are reversed we would benefit in the same way.

I'm glad the IRFU are siding with the Scots and Italians on this and hope they continue to do so.

geoff998rugby wrote:Yep the Welsh want it split by teams in the Pro12 - the others want it split by Union

Here we go again in other words. Welsh regions against Unions again?

Let me do the maths. Italian Union plus Scottish Union plus Irish Union v four Welsh regions and...is their Union with them? That's four teams against 8?

They lose.
Democracy wins.
Next

SecretFly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Yep the Welsh want it split by teams in the Pro12 - the others want it split by Union

Here we go again in other words.  Welsh regions against Unions again?

Let me do the maths.  Italian Union plus Scottish Union plus Irish Union v four Welsh regions and...is their Union with them?  That's four teams against 8?  

They lose.  
Democracy wins.
Next

How about splitting it between the teams that qualify. That should encourage the Welsh to get their act together in the Pro12 and provide some opposition.

apparently the "European Rugby Champion cup" would have 4 pool of 5 each. the 20th team wwould be the winner of the T14 7th vs AP 7th to be played on neutral ground on the 17-18 may weekend.

the Challenge cup would be 20 teams as well with 18 teams from the P12/T14/AP and 2 teams from a FIRA competition organised in september (8 teams from russia, georgia, spain, portugal , Romania etc).

sorry if am duplicating info already discussed in another european club rugby thread...

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Yep the Welsh want it split by teams in the Pro12 - the others want it split by Union

Here we go again in other words.  Welsh regions against Unions again?

Let me do the maths.  Italian Union plus Scottish Union plus Irish Union v four Welsh regions and...is their Union with them?  That's four teams against 8?  

They lose.  
Democracy wins.
Next

How about splitting it between the teams that qualify. That should encourage the Welsh to get their act together in the Pro12 and provide some opposition.

And cut the Italians down to (likely) a 7th of what the Pro12 collectively take? Same potentially for Scotland?

Notch, not my place but can't see the issue for splitting by the team. Each team takes home the same, then the FIR and SRU can use their Internationals money to top up two teams to the Irish/Welsh's four. The FIR and SRU get more international money relative to the number of teams they're supporting compared with everyone else. That's why they have fewer teams.

The ERCC?

Hmmmm........ that'll go down well in certain areas...

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Yep the Welsh want it split by teams in the Pro12 - the others want it split by Union

Here we go again in other words.  Welsh regions against Unions again?

Let me do the maths.  Italian Union plus Scottish Union plus Irish Union v four Welsh regions and...is their Union with them?  That's four teams against 8?  

They lose.  
Democracy wins.
Next

How about splitting it between the teams that qualify. That should encourage the Welsh to get their act together in the Pro12 and provide some opposition.

Yeah..that might work. But we all know what the Privately owned Welsh Regions want...they want to force the Union owned Provinces' to divide money out equally and hopefully dilute the strength of the top three... as in Privatising the Provinces. Welsh playing a "You do things our way" again with little in the way of quality at the coal face backing them up.

Everything but everything in any of this HEC debate eventually worked itself down to one common denominator - shackle the Irish as much as possible to stall the machine.

This new incarnation of European rugby just might do the trick this time. If it does, I think it should be Champagne all round for the AP, Top14 and Regions. They'll have finally killed the Beast.

I'll c&p that to the https://www.606v2.com/t52651p100-euro-club-competition-quick-updates#2586244 thread.

I've tried to separate the various competition layers - overall, pools and qualifying rounds.

Je vous remerci pour l'information.

talking about the ERC, it would be replaced at some point by something called the ERPC to be based in that bastion of rugby that is Neuchatel (Switzerland).

Thought the regions were leaving the Pro12 in order to join the Jeff/Championship?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'll c&p that to the https://www.606v2.com/t52651p100-euro-club-competition-quick-updates#2586244 thread.

I've tried to separate the various competition layers - overall, pools and qualifying rounds.

Je vous remerci pour l'information.

sorry Portnoy, didnt see the other thread...

Don't worry mate. There are three parallel threads.

The only thing that anyone seems to know is about base numbers and in fact I'm still not completely convinced by the base qualifiers. e.g. I reckon that LV= probably have a clause in their sponsorship contact to ensure that any English club that wins earns a EuroCup spot.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Yep the Welsh want it split by teams in the Pro12 - the others want it split by Union

Here we go again in other words.  Welsh regions against Unions again?

Let me do the maths.  Italian Union plus Scottish Union plus Irish Union v four Welsh regions and...is their Union with them?  That's four teams against 8?  

They lose.  
Democracy wins.
Next

How about splitting it between the teams that qualify. That should encourage the Welsh to get their act together in the Pro12 and provide some opposition.

And cut the Italians down to (likely) a 7th of what the Pro12 collectively take? Same potentially for Scotland?

Notch, not my place but can't see the issue for splitting by the team. Each team takes home the same, then the FIR and SRU can use their Internationals money to top up two teams to the Irish/Welsh's four. The FIR and SRU get more international money relative to the number of teams they're supporting compared with everyone else. That's why they have fewer teams.

And limiting it by the team will mean they are more likely to be trapped in that ghetto of only having two Teams permanently. The entire reason I was an am so directly opposed to the PRL and LNRs machinations is because we need a model which invests in the poor relations and therefore gives them the ability to expand. The strong should subsidise the weak.

Doing it by team means that the Scots and Italians can't eventually build up enough of a financially sound footing to start adding new teams because they will be getting half as much as the Irish and Welsh and god knows how much less than the English and French!!

For the record, I'd be happy with a x 4 country split - all boats rise philosophy.

What does annoy me is that the Welsh regions have no interest in the Pro12 and having to focus to qualify for the european cup to get the money might focus their attention on actually bothering to compete.

Sin é wrote:For the record, I'd be happy with a x 4 country split - all boats rise philosophy.

What does annoy me is that the Welsh regions have no interest in the Pro12 and having to focus to qualify for the european cup to get the money might focus their attention on actually bothering to compete.

sounds a bit harsh...I mean didnt the Ospreys win the pro12 2 seasons ago?

whocares wrote:

Sin é wrote:For the record, I'd be happy with a x 4 country split - all boats rise philosophy.

What does annoy me is that the Welsh regions have no interest in the Pro12 and having to focus to qualify for the european cup to get the money might focus their attention on actually bothering to compete.

sounds a bit harsh...I mean didnt the Ospreys win the pro12 2 seasons ago?

but they seem to be the only ones. We are looking this year that the second welsh team is fighting it out with the scottish second and irish fourth for 6th.

it is the fact they are going backwards while the 3 irish and Glasgow are pulling away with O's just holding on.

you would have to say connacht & Edinburgh will fancy their chances in the 2nd teir cup

A lot depends upon how seriously the english and, particularly, the french clubs, take the 2nd tier cup. The sole Pro12 representatives in the past couple of years have finished third in their pools, victories over the italians being fairly easy to come by.

Notch wrote:And limiting it by the team will mean they are more likely to be trapped in that ghetto of only having two Teams permanently. The entire reason I was an am so directly opposed to the PRL and LNRs machinations is because we need a model which invests in the poor relations and therefore gives them the ability to expand. The strong should subsidise the weak.

Doing it by team means that the Scots and Italians can't eventually build up enough of a financially sound footing to start adding new teams because they will be getting half as much as the Irish and Welsh and god knows how much less than the English and French!!

Surely it's the other way round. If it's based on union the amount will never change. If it's based on team and they get another in the pro12 then they can get more money.

Difference is the teams dropping down from the Rabo will believe they are better.

there will be no team in teir 2 Edinburgh would not feel are better than them. As top seeds you also face weaker sides. You would have to say that a poor blues team who finished second in their group would feel the others teams are stronger than them.

it is true Dragons haven't done well but Connacht lost to Toulon in a semi. Connacht, Edinburgh & Cardiff would expect 3 home wins and one away win regardless of who they get.

Dragons will do better next year

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:This is seemingly a forlorn OP as no-one seems to have any evidence of
a. what type of competition apart from that it will consist of 20 sides: Six Jeff, Six T14, 1 each Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Italian, Three more Celtalians plus One other.
b. Seedings - No information - although they affect the pools
c. Pools - No information (supposition of 5x4 pools) - although they affect the Quarters

So let's discuss the next stage: the 1/4 final qualifiers will there be any format changes?
If the PRL have been involved, with their record of indolent complacency, they wouldn't have even thought about them.

Will the same old home ties format be retained?
Will there be a home/away format?
Will the Semis continue to be dependent effectively/affected by pool results?

RaboDirect Pro12
1 Leinster 64
2 Munster 62
3 Ulster 59
4 Ospreys 51
5 Glasgow 47
6 Scarlets 36
7 Connacht 32
8 Edinburgh 29
9 NG Dragons 28
10 Cardiff Blues 24
11 Treviso 20
12 Zebre 18

So the current standings of the Pro12 have what has become the big 5 in the top 5 positions. There is already a gap from 5 to 6. So Leinster/Munster/Ulster/Ospreys/Glasgow have a hold to euro places. One Italian side must make it through, that makes 6 of the teams close to determined. Once you get to thatm it leaves one more place up for grabs, with the minimum allocation of per Union achieved meaning 6th place between Scarlets and Connacht is where the fight will happen. So concievably Connacht could qualify for next season euro's if a couple of things fall their way. And they, along with the Italian teams were the arguments against the status quo.

All good, true and worthy facts, band.

But not relevant to the OP per se.

Try the sister article at www.606v2.com/t52651-euro-club-competition-quick-updates

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:And limiting it by the team will mean they are more likely to be trapped in that ghetto of only having two Teams permanently. The entire reason I was an am so directly opposed to the PRL and LNRs machinations is because we need a model which invests in the poor relations and therefore gives them the ability to expand. The strong should subsidise the weak.

Doing it by team means that the Scots and Italians can't eventually build up enough of a financially sound footing to start adding new teams because they will be getting half as much as the Irish and Welsh and god knows how much less than the English and French!!

Surely it's the other way round. If it's based on union the amount will never change. If it's based on team and they get another in the pro12 then they can get more money.

If they could afford more teams they would have more teams- Scotland would certainly have three teams if they could finance it. Cutting their overall income makes them a lot less likely to be able to set up a new team, not more. It'd take a considerable amount of money to start a new team, and to fund it. The startup costs are daunting by themselves.

But if they had another team they would get more money. Split by union they wouldn't. So they would pay the start up costs and split the current money three ways instead of two. I'm not saying it's easy I just don't understand the logic that doing it based on teams makes it harder to get additional teams.

Because they get less money, less income. They are punished for having less teams.

They get the same for each team. A team is payed for taking part in the competition. That's not a punishment. Previous the were subsidised by getting more per team.

Why should the Scottish teams get more for taking part? Because Scottish people aren't that interested in rugby? International money is what that's for. If the Scottish teams are getting the same money as the regions and the union has the same money as the WRU for half as many teams...why can't they compete? Then if things pick up they can add another team and get a larger share of the pot.

HammerofThunor wrote:They get the same for each team. A team is payed for taking part in the competition. That's not a punishment. Previous the were subsidised by getting more per team.

Why should the Scottish teams get more for taking part? Because Scottish people aren't that interested in rugby? International money is what that's for. If the Scottish teams are getting the same money as the regions and the union has the same money as the WRU for half as many teams...why can't they compete? Then if things pick up they can add another team and get a larger share of the pot.

Firstly, the Scottish Union gets the money. This is still a Union run competition whatever you want to do in England and France. The Scottish Union should get the same amount of money because they are equal partners in the Pro12 with the Welsh, Irish and now the Italian Unions. If Scottish rugby gets stronger from that income we all benefit. If that 'subsidy' leads to Edinburgh and Glasgow being able to invest in their squads they'll be able to be better sides and attract more fans and their partners in Ireland, Wales and Italy will benefit. I certainly don't want to see us create a two-tier system where the Irish and the Welsh feel like they can bully the Scottish and Italians because we have more teams!

The bit I've highlighted is exactly the basic principle that underpins all my beliefs about European rugby, about professional sport in general in fact. If you don't agree with the idea that that state of affairs is productive, right and normal then you might as well not bother replying because it'll take something much more spectacular than a message board post to change my mind. If the more financially strong unions don't subsidise the weaker unions then you'll never have decent competition. The weaker unions will never get strong enough to challenge the stronger teams without the income being distributed evenly because there will be no scope for growth. We could have a situation where European Rugby is re-investing money downwards back into the game, instead any pay day looks to be blown on increased wages and making the strongest teams stronger still leading to some teams being more dominant and subsequently competition being less interesting, leading to less interest in weaker sides... those at the top stay healthy, those on the bottom die a slow death. The more even teams are in terms of finance, the more level the playing field, the more exciting the competition is.

The PRL recognise this on a national level in the way they distribute TV rights and enforce the salary cap. Within the national framework they recognise it's good for the league if they stop the big clubs breaking away from the chasing pack. Within the European framework, they really don't care.

The problem with agreeing this is the Welsh teams and the Welsh Union are not working together to reasonably finance their sides, so it has a knock-on impact on things like this. In terms of votes though, the Irish, Scots and Italians outvote them 3 to 4 so I imagine it will be settled by union, not by team.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Personally don't see a problem with Edinburgh getting the same amount as Tigers for Europe.

Thats because you're looking at it in terms of teams which isn't the case. It's only the case in your system.

The money will go to the SRU, not Edinburgh and Glasgow.

And the SRU will give all the money to Glasgow and Ediburgh. Along with a lot more raised from the international game. Sure they could take all that money and use it for 'fact finding missions' in New Zealand but all the unions give all the ERC money to the teams involved. The RFU just cut out the middle man and got it to go directly. Same with the league money.

And if you believe some of the dodgier Welsh forums (which is a risk) the main reason the WRU do this is so it appears in their turnover and makes them look better (and gets Roger a bonus).

And yes, all the problems in this have caused by the fact we have very different systems and ours POV are therefore very different.