Irish Provinces - state of play.

So Leinster and Ulster are out of the HEC for another year and Munster go through - where now does this leave Irish rugby and the provinces?

I personally think in a good place. Off the back of winning the 6N, including some brutal and heroic defensive efforts, it was always going to be difficult for the Irish teams with the limited playing pool and some aging players to find the performances they needed so soon.

Before the games I did feel Munster were the team best placed to progress, given the relative freshness of their side and upward trajectory of their form.

Leinster were always going to find it tough down in Toulon and although they'll disappointed given their high standards they gave a good account of themselves
and could well have won against the odds.

Ulster were favourites but for me Saracens were a team well able to get the away win and far and away the strongest English side. As it panned out a 14 man Ulster put in by far their best performance of the season and can count themselves very unlucky to be out.

Moving forward Munster have a very tough SF ahead but are a hungry team with momentum and probably the quickest backline in the competition. The experience they gained last season will stand them in good stead so for me have every chance of lifting the trophy. I'm going to predict a Munster v Saracens final and Munster to win.

Ulster and Leinster have a period of rebuilding now with great players like Drico, Muller, Cullen, Afoa, Court leaving but have shown again they aren't far off. A home win against Saints for Leinster and a different colour of card for Payne and things could have been very different for both.

Ulster have their new facailities in place, Stevie Ferris back, some decent recruits coming and quite a few players like Gilroy, Olding who've been dogged with injuries to bolster the side next year.  

All 3 are in pro 12 contention so there is a huge amount to be positive about despite the disappointments of last weekend.

The era of the Anglo-French super club is here but Irish rugby is doing a phenomenal job with the structures and there will be plenty of success ahead for the Irish teams going forward I believe.  

I think you're flogging a dead horse here rodders!

Ulster fans - too depressed to comment (or on the "was it a red" thread)

Leinster fans - too annoyed that they might have to say something nice about Munster

Munster fans - is there anything outside Munster?

Connacht fans - well you didn't even mention their team!

As a Leinster fan I'm not annoyed really. Im most annoyed about Ulster losing. Thought Bowe was out of this world.

Leinster didnt deserve to progress. Ulster were robbed IMO and Munster had the easiest group and the easiest quarter of all the Irish sides when you take into account Ulster having to play with 14 men.

That said if Munster win the Heino it will have been a superb year for Irish rugby. Can't really complain.

Didnt take you long to start whinging about Munster Guns...   

Give it a rest Guns.

Leinster had those giants of European rugby The Ospreys and Castres in their group and Munster are old hands at confronting Northampton.

And it's not Munster's fault that Leinster couldn't beat Northampton at home to gain a home Q/F.

ME-109 wrote:Didnt take you long to start whinging about Munster Guns...   

Where is the whinging?

MunsterMac wrote:Give it a rest Guns.

???? Did I say something you disagree with?

To put things in perspective i don't think Ulster were going to be a threat given their injury list but yeah they were pretty much robbed.

I didn't really recognise that Leinster team on sunday, very disapointing and for what its worth i thought they got the tactics wrong in the 1st half (why Madigan didn't start is a mystery to me) where they needed to move that Toulon team around, they lacked that killer instinct illustrated by a broken play in the 1st half were they knocked it on and would have scored as the Toulon defense was all over the place.

It was a typical Munster performance exactly what you would expect from them in the competition.

Guns, anyone who scores 40 points against Toulouse obviously deserves credit for it.

Although I do think Toulouse were the easiest opponents in the quarter-finals this year- but I would qualify that by saying it was a very competitive draw this year with eight really top class sides. The fact you could say that about Toulouse just shows how strong the line-up is. Toulouse are not the force they once were, they have their weaknesses- I always thought Munster would win, but I never thought they would go out there and score six tries which is a tremendous achievement.

Notch wrote:Guns, anyone who scores 40 points against Toulouse obviously deserves credit for it.

Ironically, I do think Toulouse were the easiest opponents in the quarter-finals this year but I would qualify that by saying it was a very competitive draw this year with eight really top class sides- the fact you could say that about Toulouse just shows how strong the line-up is.

I always thought Munster would win, but I never thought they would go out there and score six tries which is a tremendous achievement.

Who says I'm not giving them credit for it? Just saying they had the easiest group and quarter. Do you disagree with that?

Guns before this weekend you were saying that Toulouse were going to beat Munster and that there was nothing to suggest otherwise. Now that you have been proved wrong you just dismiss them.

Everybody can see threw your snipey comments.

BlueMuff wrote:Guns before this weekend you were saying that Toulouse were going to beat Munster and that there was nothing to suggest otherwise. Now that you have been proved wrong you just dismiss them.

Everybody can see threw your snipey comments.

Whats your point? Yes I predicted a Toulouse win but that was because Munster had lost their two previous matches against Leinster and Treviso*. Their form was poor so it was a fair call.



*effectively. Neither of Munsters tries were legitimate v Treviso.

So what you are trying to say is we were shiite but Toulouse were shiiter     

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Guns before this weekend you were saying that Toulouse were going to beat Munster and that there was nothing to suggest otherwise. Now that you have been proved wrong you just dismiss them.

Everybody can see threw your snipey comments.

Whats your point? Yes I predicted a Toulouse win but that was because Munster had lost their two previous matches against Leinster and Treviso*. Their form was poor so it was a fair call.



*effectively. Neither of Munsters tries were legitimate v Treviso.

Well that shows what a complete novice you are to HC rugby. I bet you dont even realise whats wrong with this post - clearly seeing as you posted it. Somebody else who cares might enlighten you.

Munster have been very lucky alright. What is it now, 2 home semi finals out of 11??

ME-109 wrote:So what you are trying to say is we were shiite but Toulouse were shiiter     

No you said that. You also said prior to the game that Toulouse's form was better than Munster's which I agreed with. Toulouse also have the greater European pedigree so a Toulouse prediction was fair albeit a home tie is always a help.

I thought Munster were outstanding. Say what you like about Toulouse on the day but you really can only play what's in front of you and Munster executed the game plan so well and I am 100% behind the men in red for the Heiny win.
Don't let me down Munsty folk.

Speaking of Munsty where is he and Staggy? Did they leave these forums?

BlueMuff wrote:
Well that shows what a complete novice you are to HC rugby. I bet you dont even realise whats wrong with this post - clearly seeing as you posted it. Somebody else who cares might enlighten you.

Stop being a diva Muff. If you dont feel like debating then dont bother.

Problem is its not a debate with you Guns its more a game of wordplay.

ME-109 wrote:Problem is its not a debate with you Guns its more a game of wordplay.

"Thats the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong"*.


- "Thank you for not smoking"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427944/quotes

Stop being a diva Muff. If you dont feel like debating then dont bother.

Rich coming the amn who brought us

Whats your point? Yes I predicted a Toulouse win but that was because Munster had lost their two previous matches against Leinster and Treviso*. Their form was poor so it was a fair call.

*effectively. Neither of Munsters tries were legitimate v Treviso.

The very definition of facetious.

How is that being a diva? Thats all true!!

Never mind Rodders nice try trying to get a debate going on a interesting issue

better luck next time   

MunsterMac wrote:

Stop being a diva Muff. If you dont feel like debating then dont bother.

Rich coming the amn who brought us

Whats your point? Yes I predicted a Toulouse win but that was because Munster had lost their two previous matches against Leinster and Treviso*. Their form was poor so it was a fair call.

*effectively. Neither of Munsters tries were legitimate v Treviso.

The very definition of facetious.

Would some please point out to our learned Clowngowers that Munster never play well before HC. Shipped 50 points last year against Glasgow prior to beating Quinns away. I could give you 30 examples if you really wanted.

BlueMuff wrote:

Would some please point out to our learned Clowngowers that Munster never play well before HC. Shipped 50 points last year against Glasgow prior to beating Quinns away. I could give you 30 examples if you really wanted.

Are you getting a little wound up again Muff? Very defensive.

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

Would some please point out to our learned Clowngowers that Munster never play well before HC. Shipped 50 points last year against Glasgow prior to beating Quinns away. I could give you 30 examples if you really wanted.

Are you getting a little wound up again Muff? Very defensive.

I thought we were debating but its just too easy with you   

It reads like a bit like a victim impact statement though Muff?

Yes Munster raise their game for the HC but so do Toulouse (most of the time) so all things being equal Munster's form, squad and pedigree wasn't as impressive as Toulouse's. Well done on the convincing win.

GunsGerms wrote: Munster played brilliantly last Saturday against a very good Toulouse team. I was mostly impressed with Simon Zebo, TOD and Kilcoyne who were hard done by JS during the 6ns.

Well done on the convincing win.

Thanks Guns...am going to frame this

geoff998rugby wrote:Never mind Rodders nice try trying to get a debate going on a interesting issue

better luck next time   

Ha! forgot I'd posted this came back on to see 27 replies none of which in reference to the OP!

As you were lads!   

To bring it back on topic this is how i see irish rugby

International we now have nearly a second 15 that are well able for the highest level, something we have struggled with before.

Leinster
On a downward cycle if you can call it that. Made the last 8 and lost to the current champions. Poor enough on the day but this year they have had few so they will be more upset at their errors.
They must change up some players but will be one of the last 8 next year.
Top of a very compeditive Pro 12 and are the only irish side to play a starting irish 15 at the highest level.

Munster
Semi final again in the HC and battered a team who had made Sarries look like boys
They are going from strenght to strenght as their youger players are getting more experience. Have a few areas where they have little cover but are moving forward to a more expasive game.
Second in the Pro 12 so have improved on last year

Ulster
If they had beaten sarries this last game we would be saying what great team they are. Won all 6 HC games against strong english and french teams.
Ladt year i think we were disappointed by how they failed against Sarries but this year they were unlucky and did it with people missing.
They are stil on the up as their youger players grow. They should be ok even though losing muller and afoa
Pro 12 while not as good as last year still in the break away group

Connacht
with the group they had in the HC 3 win and one loss by less than seven says it was a good year though their collapse was unacceptable. I think next year they will look at a 2teir Quarter/semi
The Pro 12 started badly and got worse but to finish 7th would be great.
Also Connacht for the first fime have good numbers of quailty players that are homegrown coming through. They are on the up (though wonder how important Parks is) and I think will be seen as a good team to play with rather than a Gap year like in the past.

Winning in France playing good rugby against a strong enough french team shows what Connacht can and will do in the future

Allow me to try and post on-topic again then.

My dream final now that Ulster are gone is Clermont Auvergne versus Munster with the trophy coming back to Ireland. But I think the final will be a repeat of last years sadly. I think it will be an epic semi-final, I just fancy Toulon to get over the line- just. I think if Munster can't stop Toulon from getting into their rhythm they will have too much power- away in Marseillie I really think the guy they need is O'Mahony and his injury couldn't come at a worse time for Munster. I hope ASM win the competition if Munster don't. ASM fans are brilliant.

Massive injury blows to Ulster this week and a non-showing against Cardiff leave us with a hell of a lot to do. The uninjured players need to recover quickly and deliver a big performance and a big win on Friday night. Connacht might well think they smell blood in the water. They've been on a good run. It's the first of three interprovincial clashes in the run-in for Ulster, fierce rivals who will fight for everything against us- doesn't get any easier. An amazing effort with a man down against Saracens shows that we have the character to pick up some key wins in the run-in, wins in Montpellier and Leicester show we have the skill. But how will we react to the disappointment? How will the broken bodies recover? The hard work has just begun. It could really go either way.

I predict Munster will win the Pro12. Leinster and Ulster will also be thereabouts, but Munster look freshest. Ulsters lack of squad depth and injuries will take a toll, and Leinsters international contingent will also struggle to stay fresh. I don't think Glasgow and Ospreys have the beating of Munster or Leinster away (I expect them to be 1st and 2nd, not sure which order)

We have marathon seasons now, and Munster might just have the most left in their legs as we come up to the final straight.

Well compare things to where they were a few years back.

- We had no props a few years back. Theres a stream of them now.
- Squads are much stronger now.
- Theres less need for NIQs.
- Academies are bigger now so the future looks bright.
- More players are moving abroad.
- Ulster and Connacht are much stronger.
- Munster have completed their transition period.

Only downside is Leinster are now going into a rebuilding period. BOD, D'Arcy, Cullen, Jennings, Reddan, Boss and Ross are all a year or so from retiring.

Not sure on that Notch. You have to think Leinster will win the league. Don't get me wrong I would be delighted if we win on Friday and Glasgow/Ospreys do us a favour but I can't see it. We need to make sure are in the hunt first and foremost but a home semi is within our grasp albeit a lot of rugby to be played

Despite the injury list if he keeps improving Ferris could be a key figure in the run in.

For Leinster to improve MOC must go, Madigan has to be no.1, they need a new 13.

On paper their pack is a lot better than last year but aren't firing, which I believe is MOC's fault, although they were good vs Northampton away and Munster.

MOCs 10 selections have annoyed me. Flyhalf is the one position you have to pick your general and let him know he's your number 1. Deccie made the same mistake; mixing up his 10 selection constantly, and neither performing to their best as a result.

Madigan was sublime last year but his career has been set back a year by the new coach. Gopperth has been good, but he should be here to back up Madigan in my opinion. To select Gopperth after him not playing for so long was madness. And he had probably his worst game in a blue jersey. Why wasn't he selected against Munster if he was going to start in the HC after so little rugby?

Our Leicester Tiger-ish attacking doesn't please me much either. It's funny, I'd happily watch Ireland win playing the ugliest rugby ever seen. But with Leinster I kind of expect to be entertained with the slick stuff. That's our thing.

That said it's probably unfair to be calling for his head before his first season ends. If we win the Rabo then he's equalled Scmidt's last league finish and gone one step further in the HC. Give him a chance. One more year before we should decide if he's the right man. I reserve the right to whinge constantly for that year though.

gleesonisgod wrote:For Leinster to improve MOC must go, Madigan has to be no.1, they need a new 13.

On paper their pack is a lot better than last year but aren't firing, which I believe is MOC's fault, although they were good vs Northampton away and Munster.

Leinster remind me of Munster around 2009-2010 - kind of stuttering between great and poor. The home loss to Northampton reminded me of Munster away to USAP (and blew them away down there), then Leinster blew Munster away in the semi-final in Croke Park (having nilled Leinster in the pro12 a few weeks earlier).

The major issue I think Leinster has is a lack of leadership and its going to get worse next season with no Cullen and no BOD, and Jennings is getting on. Heaslip isn't good enough. Ruddock looks to have the greatest potential here. I think Gilsenan might also be good in a year or so.

There has been a lot of talk about Leinster sneaking in the back enterance against Toulon. What were they thinking of?

In alphabetical order:

Connacht: always the bridesmaid but ... the thing I think Lam has brought to Connacht is genuine belief that they could compete at the top table, hence their win against Toulouse and our collective disappointment when they were annihilated by Saracens. However, 7th in the Rabo is a good position. With the new qualification regime for the Euro Cup (whatever it's called) they are knocking at the door to gain qualification in their own right. I doubt many of us would have predicted that at the beginning of the season. As mentioned above they need to find a strong replacement for Parks. Also, looking at the number of young players coming through their own system, I think that, having given credit to Pat Lam, we must not forget the work Eric Elwood did.

Leinster: Definitely the most disappointing of the three Irish QFists. Not a Leinster fan, I was very disappointed how poorly they accounted for themselves; thery were quite frankly embarrassingly bad. Yes, they have an ageing team and there are many who need replacing. But that was not, in my opinion the REAL problem on Sunday. I found it astonishinjg the change around that occurred when Leo Cullen came onto the field. Suddenly Leinster had direction, structure and the appearance of a team that knew what they were supposed to be doing. What I am saying is that before Leo came on the one thing they were missing above all else was Leadership. There was none in evidence amongst the other players. And, given that Leo is now the wrong side of "playing age" (whatever you consider that to be for his position), Leinster's biggest problem is a lack of real leadership amongst the 23 players who were there on Sunday, or apparently the rest of their playing squad. They should have it, but it ain't there at the moment, and until they find it, they are going to struggle. It was not the first time this was in evidence - they had the same problem when the lost to SAints in December - no on-field leadership. Contrast this with Toulon who lost their captain and playmaker in the first quarter of the game and surely had to do a re-positioning of their game plan as a result; or with Ulster who lost their FB and one of their main strike runners at 4 mins and then their hooker and one of their on-field leaders Best at 13 mins. How much reorganisation did Ulster have to do? And yet they lost by only two points?
In the meantime, Leinster have a big re-building exercise to undertake. There seems to be some good younger players coming through but whether they are in a position to replace all those too old or simply past it I am in no postion to comment (I do not see enough Irish rugby to make that judgment). After Sunday, some fans were calling for MOC's head - well I think he should be given some time to do some rebuilding or the next coach will be faced with the same problem and Leinster might find themselves back in the position they were in before Cheika arrived where they seemed to change coaches more often than footie teams.

Munster: Well yet another HEC SF. Alone they stand, as they did last year and many years previously. The question is can they go one round further this year? I don't know. But then I went to Thomond on Saturday not convinced they could win that one. But the OP question was "where is the province now?" I think Munster are in a very good place. Rob Penney has brought a huge amount to the province and it is a real tragedy that he is going. He said he wanted 3 years, he has had 2 and I hope Axel has learned enough to maintain the good stuff that RP did. RP has built a squad - a genuine squad. The evidence for this was seen on Saturday when Kilcoyne was sin-binned. John Ryan as callow a youth in propping terms as you could get came on and Munster got a penalty from his first scrum (I agree that BJ won the penalty, but the point is Ryan did not let his side down). There are at least two players for most positions and three for many - and by that I mean players who have played at least Rabo level. There have been injury problems - e.g. Cathal Sheridan (SH), Mike Sherry (Hooker) Stephen Archer (Prop) - resulting in fans worrying about the replacements RP has been forced to field. Duncan Casey (hooker) played his first game for Munster in Dec 2013 (5 mins against Perpignan); he is not the real deal yet, but having been forced into a more responsible role due to injuries (Varley and Sherry) he held his own on Saturday. But, for all of Penney's good work, the trophy cabinet is still bare. That needs to be rectified. The current crop of players are aware that they are following in the footsteps of generatons of red-shirted legends. This means that they must add their story to that history. If they don't they will be forgotten and they won't want that.
If ...
Hopes and expectations are two different things. I hope Munster go on to win the HEC this year; I hope they at least get to the final of the Rabo.
If Penney were staying on, I would have expected the silverware to start rolling in next year i.e. in his third year in charge.

Ulster: lost their way for a bit and then Brian Mclaughlin restored their pride in the jersey and their traditions. In the past few years they have made it out of their HEC pool. Having lost a final and a QF in the last two years there were those who thought this was their year. Last Saturday's red card cannot be undone and there is little point in arguing about it at this stage. However, as I mentioned above, the way Ulster performed in the face of that adversity shows that the team has real character. They are losing a few of their senior players (Court, Afoa, Muller amongst others) and I wonder to what extent Afoa and Muller, in particular, will be missed in terms of leadership. I will leave that for the Ulster fans to answer. However, like Munster, they do not have any silverware to display in what is now a bare trophy cabinet, but from the position of outside observer, I would say that Ulster are in a good place; their plaeyrs are used to playing at the highest level and they frequemtly win individual games even if not the trophy at the end - it is surely only a matter of time before they do that.

From my perspective (and this is with more knowledge of Ulster)

Leinster - need a few well placed NIQs for my money. With O'Driscoll and Cullen going and the likes of Jennings and Ross getting older there will be a slight vacuum in experience but a centre and possibly a lock and they will be grand. Embarrassment of riches in the front row and back row. A nine might be a priority too.

Munster- moving rightly but they are going to lose O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Botha soon enough. Still a well placed recruitment and there is plenty of talent. Back row looks enough, foley coming through is well timed. Centre again might be an issue with Downey and Laulala off ski. Tight head will be tricky enough if they aren't allowed an NIQ but it's hard to see them fading away with Foley taking over. If anything it will make them more bloody minded.

Connacht- I don't agree that 7th was a great achievement given how we were led to believe the signing of Clarke and Heenan and the emergence of Griffin, Henshaw and Marmion this was their best chance to do some damage. As it is it wouldn't be a bad season but their pre Christmas form was shocking. With no HEC next season and the nature of the European game changing I worry for them.

Ulster- early days. Rumour is we have signings secured but we can't judge until we know who they are. Some think we haven't kicked on from last season. I disagree personally. I think we had learned our European lessons and were in prime shape for a crack at a home semi until..............

As things stand we will severely miss Mullers leadership if not his general play. Afoa can lock out the scrum but if Herbst can do likewise and train with us day in day out I'm unconvinced we are downgrading. Court was on the wane and in fairness I think Black looked the better option. Will Murphy come into the equation? I don't know. Depth is the issue and age profile. Fully fit the back five of the pack (with an NIQ to come) is in rude health. Similarly our backline is littered with talent but we need to be better at integrating our younger guys. O'Connor, Dow, Nelson, Scholes will all have a significant role to play next season if we are to challenge on two fronts. Depending on the props our first 23 is a match for anyone.

Muller will be missed in terms of leadership, massively. He's irreplaceable in that sense. Afoa? Not so committed.

Just on Axel & Munster - according to Murray Kinsella (thescore.ie) & Trevor Hogan (Newstalk), Axel is credited with the breakdown skills coaching as well as the Munster & Ireland maul.

Maybe Penney reckoned he wasn't needed anymore in Munster!

That maul on saturday looked much better than the irish maul. I would love to knoe how many meters they made in the match from it. I think Munster will do fine against Toulon if they smash the breakdown with the same fire.

Quick overview...

Connacht - More consistent than previously, some good backs and others coming through the academy. If they hold on to Lam they might string more wins together. Next year could see a big improvement. Dont think they have it to make the top 6 this year.

Ulster - Losing some very important players and leaders on the field. Pluses - Fez is back. He stays fit it will make a big difference. Lots of young players coming through in the backs..but (and this is a little criticism) have seen lots of discussions from Ulster posters on the certainty of X or Y being the next big thing for Ireland when anyone has barely seen them in the Pro12 not to mind the HC. Will be very curious to see how they react to last weekend. You would expect positively but with the disastrous injuries it could be interesting.

Leinster - Last year I suspected they had crested in 2012 and were on the way downhill in 2013. Lots of very senior and important players coming to the end now who were integral to their success. Sexton gone is a big loss, Nacewa is as big a loss, SOB out has been very hard. The Toulon game for me was an eye opener in that they just did not get any control which is what you expect from them. MOC might still turn them around but the jury is clearly out from the comments from Leinster fans. Home Semi in the Rabo...still favourites for the title for me (see below re munster)

Munster - Getting there andnot far from the finished article but could come back to earth with a bump after the HC SF. Squad is looking good and was going to say plenty of options in all areas. However IC/OC next year will be completely new (no idea who is in the mix). All other areas are stacked with adequate backup which is great however Archer has a bulging disc problem (a la Dan Cole) so could be an issue which is a pity as he was starting to flourish big time under Botha's tutelage. So that could be a problem area next year.....for the rest of the season...HC - who knows to be honest. POM out is a problem and we dont need any more injuries. RABO will depend on the HC..if we manage to get a home SF I think we will make the final..if we get knocked out of the HC I would say we will win the Rabo, if we get to the HC final we wont...(would be nice to do both but I think its impossible).

KiaRose I've heard Foley being interviewed after the announcement he got the job. I strongly got the impression he won't be picking up where Penney left off in terms of style of play. I think he'll go with whatever he thinks will win them games; which will be the traditional Munster style. Many weren't happy with the side to side stuff produced a lot under Penney anyway. I know Keith Wood has said a lot in the media that he doesn't think it's a way of playing that suits them. I don' think Penney's revolution will be carried through by Foley.

Feckless Rogue wrote:KiaRose I've heard Foley being interviewed after the announcement he got the job. I strongly got the impression he won't be picking up where Penney left off in terms of style of play. I think he'll go with whatever he thinks will win them games; which will be the traditional Munster style. Many weren't happy with the side to side stuff produced a lot under Penney anyway. I know Keith Wood has said a lot in the media that he doesn't think it's a way of playing that suits them. I don' think Penney's revolution will be carried through by Foley.

By revolution which way do you mean...the side to side aimlessness of the Rabo as per the game against Leinster or the rucking, fast ball as per the HC?

Post 1999 it is hard to figure out what is the traditional Munster style....is it the one that out Touloused Toulouse in Bordeaux in 2000, or what...can you explain it? It has been said by a number of New Zealand players (Sin E I am sure can provide the facts) that the Munster way of playing is closest to the New Zealand way which is possibly why Tipoki, Cullen and Douglas liked playing here.

On the other hand Leinster who pre Cheika had the L'Boys tag have become a more forward oriented team (and impressively so under Schmidt). You dont see them scoring the type of tries they did against Toulouse in 06 for example.  Just doesnt happen anymore.

I know its a kind of Leinster = scintillating backs (hasnt been for some time) and Munster are all about the forwards (not really). The reason Leinster have beaten Munster over the last few years continuously is because of their forwards. Its just baffling.

EDIT- Forgot to say that I think Foley between DK, McGahan and Penney has now had a more than useful apprenticeship. I believe with the squad he has at his disposal and his undoubted rugby brain will bring us along a little further as Sin É mentioned maybe Penney saw he wasnt needed any more.

ME, Munster have won in lots of ways since 1999. They've added things and lost things over 15 years of course. They currently have an incredibly exciting back three, I know. But you know what the "traditional Munster style" is as well as everyone else.

I wasn't having a go at Foley. Just saying that I got the impression his tenure won't at all be about a great project to evolve a playing style to something "better". Which is kind of what Penney was trying to do. I think Foley will be a pragmatist. Kind of like Schmidt was with Ireland this year.

Some Munster fans will be glad to hear that, some would be more excited by what Penney was trying. None will give a toss really as long as Foley's Munster win.

What the hell?:

1. Leinster - had a bad day at the office against the richest club franchise in the world. Disappointing, but only relatively. You are looking at a home playoff berth. So it's happy days.

2. Munster - still in the Heiney after a wonderful QF. You are looking at a home playoff berth in your league. So it's happy days.

3. Ulster - were effectively robbed from a Heiney SF through a poor refereeing decision and injuries to key players at a crucial moment. A freak result. You are looking at a home playoff berth. So it's happy days.

4. Connacht - you are having your best ever season. So it's happy days.

Nationally, you had a large number of participants on the most recent Lions tour and you've just won the 6 Nations.
So it's happy days.

Am I missing something? I realise that you can't judge success by Scottish standards, or otherwise you'd be high fiving everyone for lacing up your boots correctly and not soiling yourself with your nice, clean game kit on - but perhaps if you're Irish the glass should be regarded as not merely half full, but half full with a new pint settling nicely next to it?

McGahanball and Penneyball was hearlded as the way forward to compete in rugby - its not.

Look at Munsters big performances under Penney, Quinns, Clermont and Toulouse. All won up front and none of the stuff we see in the Rabo running sideways across the pitch. It might not be pretty but its effective.

If anything our back play has gone backwards under Penney and Simon Mannix. Given the back 3 that we have our moves and attacks are very predictable I think mainly coming from the centres who just dont seem to know what to do or where to go. LuaLua for all his huff and puff just seems to run in any direction where he sees a bit of space even if its on the other side of the pitch.

George Carlin wrote:What the hell?:

1. Leinster - had a bad day at the office against the richest club franchise in the world. Disappointing, but only relatively. You are looking at a home playoff berth. So it's happy days.

2. Munster - still in the Heiney after a wonderful QF. You are looking at a home playoff berth in your league. So it's happy days.

3. Ulster - were effectively robbed from a Heiney SF through a poor refereeing decision and injuries to key players at a crucial moment. A freak result. You are looking at a home playoff berth. So it's happy days.

4. Connacht - you are having your best ever season. So it's happy days.

Nationally, you had a large number of participants on the most recent Lions tour and you've just won the 6 Nations.
So it's happy days.

Am I missing something? I realise that you can't judge success by Scottish standards, or otherwise you'd be high fiving everyone for lacing up your boots correctly and not soiling yourself with your nice, clean game kit on - but perhaps if you're Irish the glass should be regarded as not merely half full, but half full with a new pint settling nicely next to it?

For ulster this is now three big years we have had and (more than likely) not a trophy in any. The HEC final against Leinster was a terrific bonus and I wasn't too disheartened when we were soundly beaten as that Leinster side was the best I have seen in Europe. Last year we had a rake of injuries and that led to us being soundly beaten by sarries. Again fairly easy to take. Less so was the pro12 final where we were within a Robbie Diack bellyflop of beating Leinster but again we came away empty handed.

That was less easy to come to terms with but I can't say I have experienced disappointment like last Saturday. Maybe clerc scoring against ireland in 2007 comes close. It has not only (unjustly) knocked us out of Europe but looks to have completely ballsed up any chance we had in the league.