Irish Provinces - state of play.

First topic message reminder :

So Leinster and Ulster are out of the HEC for another year and Munster go through - where now does this leave Irish rugby and the provinces?

I personally think in a good place. Off the back of winning the 6N, including some brutal and heroic defensive efforts, it was always going to be difficult for the Irish teams with the limited playing pool and some aging players to find the performances they needed so soon.

Before the games I did feel Munster were the team best placed to progress, given the relative freshness of their side and upward trajectory of their form.

Leinster were always going to find it tough down in Toulon and although they'll disappointed given their high standards they gave a good account of themselves
and could well have won against the odds.

Ulster were favourites but for me Saracens were a team well able to get the away win and far and away the strongest English side. As it panned out a 14 man Ulster put in by far their best performance of the season and can count themselves very unlucky to be out.

Moving forward Munster have a very tough SF ahead but are a hungry team with momentum and probably the quickest backline in the competition. The experience they gained last season will stand them in good stead so for me have every chance of lifting the trophy. I'm going to predict a Munster v Saracens final and Munster to win.

Ulster and Leinster have a period of rebuilding now with great players like Drico, Muller, Cullen, Afoa, Court leaving but have shown again they aren't far off. A home win against Saints for Leinster and a different colour of card for Payne and things could have been very different for both.

Ulster have their new facailities in place, Stevie Ferris back, some decent recruits coming and quite a few players like Gilroy, Olding who've been dogged with injuries to bolster the side next year.  

All 3 are in pro 12 contention so there is a huge amount to be positive about despite the disappointments of last weekend.

The era of the Anglo-French super club is here but Irish rugby is doing a phenomenal job with the structures and there will be plenty of success ahead for the Irish teams going forward I believe.  

I see the Ulster age profile mentioned

In one sense mistifyied - next year we will only have 2 players over 30 - Best and Wilson (both 32)

Now it true we have whole bunch of them around the 29/30 mark, and that will be a big issue in 2/3 years, but for a couple of years we will be ok.
This is where the dearth of players coming trough under 29 in most positions (something I have touched on elsewhere) will come back and bit us with a vengance

Just to clarify - I didn't forget Connacht, just focused the thread on the 3 teams in the HEC QF with the backdrop of the 6N for context.

On first glance 2 teams getting eliminated is disappointing but when you take a step back I think there are still more positives and negatives in the bigger scheme.

Connacht is difficult to judge because the changes to the European qualification could be a game changer for them -good or bad is hard to say at this stage.

Munster for me a clearly on the up with the age profile of their side and the likes of Copeland coming in next year. Penney leaving early is a blow though.

Leinster have gone backwards but that was inevitable. Some key players are not what they were and loosing Sexton and O'Brien was always going to be a big blow. There academy is strong, although there are question marks over O'Connor.

Ulster I'm not sure - Muller, Afoa, Court will be hard to replace. But that is offset by returning players, new signings and the benefits of the improved stadium and facilities.

The overriding challenge for all of the above is competing with the super rich French clubs.

Munster winning this year would not just be significant for Irish rugby, and Munster, but European rugby as a whole.

Anyone else winning will confirm a power shift in the game - maybe an inevitable one - towards the richest teams.

I think the IRFU and provinces are doing a great job to combat this - everyone should get behind Munster in the Heino, its all to play for in the Pro12 and then feel positive individually about each provinces capacity to compete in Europe next season.

Again I see reference to Munster positive age profile but there are some old hands in there
POC, DOC, Coughlan and BJ are all older than anyone at Ulster next year.
Ryan is also older than anyone at Ulster next year bar Best and Wilson.

That is a fair chunk of the forwards and especially the 2nd row

Standulstermen wrote:For ulster this is now three big years we have had and (more than likely) not a trophy in any. The HEC final against Leinster was a terrific bonus and I wasn't too disheartened when we were soundly beaten as that Leinster side was the best I have seen in Europe. Last year we had a rake of injuries and that led to us being soundly beaten by sarries. Again fairly easy to take. Less so was the pro12 final where we were within a Robbie Diack bellyflop of beating Leinster but again we came away empty handed.

That was less easy to come to terms with but I can't say I have experienced disappointment like last Saturday. Maybe clerc scoring against ireland in 2007 comes close. It has not only (unjustly) knocked us out of Europe but looks to have completely ballsed up any chance we had in the league.

Yes Stand but that has to be taken in context. In 2007/2008 (or was it the season before?) we struggled to qualify for the Heino based on league position and hadn't reached the KO stages in Europe since 1999. We couldn't buy an away win and our interpro record was awful. We had very little Irish representation.

For 4 seasons in a row now we've reached at least the QF in Europe - we've had numerous wins in England, Wales and France - have played in 2 finals. The ticket sales are through the roof.

Not having a trophy is really disappointing but I think you have to look at the positives and believe that if you keep knocking on the door that eventually it will open - the way it did for Leinster and Munster. At this stage its about the long term as much as short term success - the facilities, the academy, the grassroots.

In the short term we are still in contention in the pro12 and until we get knocked out we have a chance of silverware this year.

BELIEVE!

A lot is made of Muller, Afoa and Court leaving.

Personally, I don't think Court is going to be a big loss. I've high hopes for Murphy and Herbst to be his equal.

Muller - Some have implied he may have taken a year more than he should have. He's just not the same player as he was previously. The impact of his leaving will be mostly felt in leadership rather than on pitch ability.

Afoa - His form this season has not been what it has been. Many have suggested he is already not 100% mentally still here. (I think he stepped up at the weekend), but on the whole, he has not been a 'force' for us this season.

We have Ferris back and getting up to speed (kind of like a new signing), we have Olding back (kind of like a new signing) and a fairly handy lock to be signed by all reports.

My only worry is not the talent Ulster will have next year, but what impact another QF exit in the Heino will have mentally combined with the loss of their heroic talisman Muller.

I agree with all that Rodders and I'm not as down on the loss of Afoa, court and to a lesser extent muller as some but I'm just struggling to be positive this week

geoff998rugby wrote:Again I see reference to Munster positive age profile but there are some old hands in there
POC, DOC, Coughlan and BJ are all older than anyone at Ulster next year.
Ryan is also older than anyone at Ulster next year bar Best and Wilson.

That is a fair chunk of the forwards and especially the 2nd row

Geoff you don't need to take a positive reference to Munster age profile as a negative reference to Ulaters! I didn't mention ours because other than Muller I don't think its relevant.

That said the spine of Munsters side, without researching, is pretty young -  POM, Stander, O'Donnell, Murray, Keatley, JJ, Earls, Jones, Zebo, Kilcoyne - now Copeland probably to replace the underrated Coughlan.  

By contrast Ulster have a lot of key men in their late 20s/early 30s - Trimble, Bowe, Pienaar, Best, Wilson, Williams, Henry, Payne. The age profile is fine but its still the experienced players providing the leadership to a large degree. There's plenty of exciting young players but some of them need to step next year - I believe they will so I'm not worried.

Standulstermen wrote:I agree with all that Rodders and I'm not as down on the loss of Afoa, court and to a lesser extent muller as some but I'm just struggling to be positive this week

Stand - why do you think you won't win the league? Just how bad are the injuries at the moment?

Pienaar Best Wilson and Tuohy all likely to miss the remainder of the season. Shorter term injuries to Trimble and Afoa. Payne likely to miss a few games after citing.

That said, I havn't given up all hope yet. I still think wee P will actually now step up when he sees Pienaar is out.

Herring has been great bar the last two games. Wilson and Tuohy have plenty of quality cover in those positions.

George Carlin wrote:What the hell?:

1. Leinster - had a bad day at the office against the richest club franchise in the world. Disappointing, but only relatively. You are looking at a home playoff berth. So it's happy days.

2. Munster - still in the Heiney after a wonderful QF. You are looking at a home playoff berth in your league. So it's happy days.

3. Ulster - were effectively robbed from a Heiney SF through a poor refereeing decision and injuries to key players at a crucial moment. A freak result. You are looking at a home playoff berth. So it's happy days.

4. Connacht - you are having your best ever season. So it's happy days.

Nationally, you had a large number of participants on the most recent Lions tour and you've just won the 6 Nations.
So it's happy days.

Am I missing something? I realise that you can't judge success by Scottish standards, or otherwise you'd be high fiving everyone for lacing up your boots correctly and not soiling yourself with your nice, clean game kit on - but perhaps if you're Irish the glass should be regarded as not merely half full, but half full with a new pint settling nicely next to it?

More of less as I see it too.

clivemcl wrote:Pienaar Best Wilson and Tuohy all likely to miss the remainder of the season. Shorter term injuries to Trimble and Afoa. Payne likely to miss a few games after citing.

That said, I havn't given up all hope yet. I still think wee P will actually now step up when he sees Pienaar is out.

Herring has been great bar the last two games. Wilson and Tuohy have plenty of quality cover in those positions.

We desperately need Paul Marshall and Craig Gilroy to find their A games because they just haven't delivered for most of this season. Time for Williams too to earn his crust.

If we show the resilience that we did against Saracens then we are still in with a shout. We can't afford to capitulate because of the HEC disappointment.

George Carlin wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I agree with all that Rodders and I'm not as down on the loss of Afoa, court and to a lesser extent muller as some but I'm just struggling to be positive this week

Stand - why do you think you won't win the league? Just how bad are the injuries at the moment?

Best, Pienaar (the key one), Wilson, Tuohy, probably Payne banned after today and three top 5 teams to play and three interpros.

Rodders outside of Henderson and Jackson, and ignoring the threes, who are the exciting players coming through next year for Ulster to challange the old hands - I dont see it.

We do have some prospects but they are more 2/3/4 years down the line.
Cant see Donnan, O'Connor,Dow, Taggart, Joyce, Warwick, McCall, Nelson do anything other than progress next year - they will not be knocking on the door for first team places imo.

Maybe the year after some will be serious contenders but not next.

One think I would say is Marshall (p) played his best game in a long time and Herring threw much better than he did in the previous 3 games - good to see.

They don't have to be first teasers next season Geoff as you mentioned. Getting them some Pro12 game time with the first team is vital though.

McCall (depending on where we play him), Nelson, Joyce, Warwick and O'Connor already have game time but it definitely needs to be ramped up a little next year. McCloskey also. It's about how we integrate them to help them maximise their potential

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders outside of Henderson and Jackson, and ignoring the threes, who are the exciting players coming through next year for Ulster to challange the old hands - I dont see it.

We do have some prospects but they are more 2/3/4 years down the line.
Cant see Donnan, O'Connor,Dow, Taggart, Joyce, Warwick, McCall, Nelson do anything other than progress next year - they will not be knocking on the door for first team places imo.

Maybe the year after some will be serious contenders but not next.

One think I would say is Marshall (p) played his best game in a long time and Herring threw much better than he did in the previous 3 games - good to see.

In fairness Geoff, if you produce a Chris Henry for example who is international standard, why is there a need to produce another international standard in that position until he is on the wind down of his career. I just don't think its a huge disaster. To be a top team, you need solid if not spectacular squad players to step up during international windows and injuries. Too many spectacular players will mean one will leave for first team gametime.

Standulstermen wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I agree with all that Rodders and I'm not as down on the loss of Afoa, court and to a lesser extent muller as some but I'm just struggling to be positive this week

Stand - why do you think you won't win the league? Just how bad are the injuries at the moment?

Best, Pienaar (the key one), Wilson, Tuohy, probably Payne banned after today and three top 5 teams to play and three interpros.

So you aren't madly confident about playing us (Warriors) on 18 April in Glasgow, then?

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders outside of Henderson and Jackson, and ignoring the threes, who are the exciting players coming through next year for Ulster to challange the old hands - I dont see it.

No I agree Geoff I was referring more to the fact that the go to guys are the experienced heads compared to Munster.

Luke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Rob Herring, Henderson, Gilroy even Diack - young players need to step up and become leaders as the likes of Muller leave and Trimble and Best are away on national duty.

Michael Allen is an exciting prospect - Olding obviously. There's Farrell and ...that black haired inside centre(?! doh)...

Heaney, Nelson, Andrew and McKinney etc. have not delivered but there's still time. Forwards is a bit bleaker but we discussed that on the other thread.

George Carlin wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I agree with all that Rodders and I'm not as down on the loss of Afoa, court and to a lesser extent muller as some but I'm just struggling to be positive this week

Stand - why do you think you won't win the league? Just how bad are the injuries at the moment?

Best, Pienaar (the key one), Wilson, Tuohy, probably Payne banned after today and three top 5 teams to play and three interpros.

So you aren't madly confident about playing us (Warriors) on 18 April in Glasgow, then?

Not wildly. If we get Payne and Afoa it will help.

clivemcl wrote:To be a top team, you need solid if not spectacular squad players to step up during international windows and injuries. Too many spectacular players will mean one will leave for first team gametime.

Well not really clive to be a top team you need 2nd/3rd choice players who are international standard these days.

Leinster can bring in players like McLaughlin, Jennings, Murphy to replace O'Brien, Heaslip, Ruddock.

The French teams are a different level altogether,

Clive I'd settle for adequate in some positions we dont have that.

take lock - Tuohy, Henderson, Stevenson and then you fall off a cliff.
take hooker - best, Herring then you fall off a cliff

Munster and Leinster seem much better at having ok replacement

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders outside of Henderson and Jackson, and ignoring the threes, who are the exciting players coming through next year for Ulster to challange the old hands - I dont see it.

No I agree Geoff I was referring more to the fact that the go to guys are the experienced heads compared to Munster.

Luke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Rob Herring, Henderson, Gilroy even Diack - young players need to step up and become leaders as the likes of Muller leave and Trimble and Best are away on national duty.

Michael Allen is an exciting prospect - Olding obviously. There's Farrell and ...that black haired inside centre(?! doh)...

Heaney, Nelson, Andrew and McKinney etc. have not delivered but there's still time. Forwards is a bit bleaker but we discussed that on the other thread.

Is Michael Allen an exciting prospect ? - wholehearted certaintly but no more than a decent spud and a good squad player to me
Farrell is away - lost out to McCloskey
McKinney is away and if rumours are true Heaney will be as well
Andrew - same as Allen

Jackson and Diack are already stepping up to the mark re leadership
Jackson calls the back plays now not Pienaer
Diack has been the best captain this year other than Muller of course

geoff998rugby wrote:Clive I'd settle for adequate in some positions we dont have that.

take lock - Tuohy, Henderson, Stevenson and then you fall off a cliff.
take hooker - best, Herring then you fall off a cliff

Munster and Leinster seem much better at having ok replacement

But Geoff, how many games did we suffer this year or lose becuase of having to go that far 'deep' in the squad.

Muller is being replaced. And after those locks we have Diack. When did we need more this season? Hooker is light, I’ll give you that. Annett had to sub a lot. Did he start any? Can’t believe we aren’t replacing him and also shifting McCall to prop. seriously odd.

McCall is a prop being shifted to hooker not the other way round.
Our third hooker is key and we dont really have one - what with injuries and Best playing for Ireland.

We had to use McComb in a fair few games - sorry but the guy is useless.
Big step up for O'Connor next year.
We will get by but my point is Leinster and Munster are better at this depth than us

I see Ulster have signed John Ryan (former Munster) from Zebre...

Dave Ryan (former Munster)- John Ryan is currently with Munster! He came off the bench against Toulouse. Hard to keep all these Ryans straight I know

We have massive problems with our depth. For me, our first team is good enough but we are miles off having a squad that can challenge. There's talk of McCall playing hooker which leaves us with only two specialist hookers in the squad, one a front-line international with a chequered injury history. So there will be a lot of league games where we only have one hooker and a converted prop in our squad- worrying. Annett let go and not replaced yet is a massive blow to our front row depth.

If we let Heaney leave we only have two specialist scrum-halves and no cover. Again, Pienaar will miss games etc. We simply can't afford to let Porter AND Heaney go but Porter is rumoured to be signing for Connacht and Heaney is now a doubt to stay? Is Shanahan ready to step up... not sure about that.

It makes you wonder whether our coaches are making the squad players you need to have around feel appreciated enough. Our fringe players leave in the droves every year. While a lot of our fringe players aren't good enough and the Academy isn't producing enough quality players, we can't get by with this few players. The players who are leaving are not going to be replaced by Academy products.

In an ideal world I'd like to see another hooker, lock, scrum-half and two out halves sign on. If Humphreys and O'Hagan are done deals, then thats the 10s sorted. New Irish hooker and scrum-half please... talented NIQ lock.

Feckless Rogue wrote:ME, Munster have won in lots of ways since 1999. They've added things and lost things over 15 years of course. They currently have an incredibly exciting back three, I know. But you know what the "traditional Munster style" is as well as everyone else.

I wasn't having a go at Foley. Just saying that I got the impression his tenure won't at all be about a great project to evolve a playing style to something "better". Which is kind of what Penney was trying to do. I think Foley will be a pragmatist. Kind of like Schmidt was with Ireland this year.

Some Munster fans will be glad to hear that, some would be more excited by what Penney was trying. None will give a toss really as long as Foley's Munster win.

Yeah your right am being a bit precious. But I would give Foley more credit he was the "thinking mans rugby player" and I think if you look at the game last weekend the detail in terms of the forward play had Foley stamped all over it. Also Ian Costelloe (skills coach) has a great reputation who will be on the ticket - Sin É knows a lot more about him.

Bluemuff....to be honest I give Penney a lot of credit for the progress, last year the Rabo was used primarily to get the players comfortable with ball in hand. The side to side stuff was frustrating to watch but there was clear method to the madness to get the "canterbury" approach. When it came to the bigger games in HC there was not so much a complete change of game plan but the forwards were more direct and dynamic going forward and he was pragmatic enough to use his big guns like ROG in the right way (play the corners when required and he had someone in ROG who could do that). This year he continued this to a certain extent with the RABO and the team has evolved to being more comfortable playing this style which is why we have done well. The HC has seen us go up in intensity as per last year and a more dynamic game around the forwards. He has developed the players (which is what he was brought in to do) and we are in a good place. In terms of how Munster supporters view him..he walked the perimeter of the pitch before the game last Sat and was given an ovation by the fans....its a pity he is going but he leaves us in a lot better place than two years ago.

Notch wrote:We have massive problems with our depth. For me, our first team is good enough but we are miles off having a squad that can challenge. There's talk of McCall playing hooker which leaves us with only two specialist hookers in the squad, one a front-line international with a chequered injury history. So there will be a lot of league games where we only have one hooker and a converted prop in our squad- worrying. Annett let go and not replaced yet is a massive blow to our front row depth.

If we let Heaney leave we only have two specialist scrum-halves and no cover. Again, Pienaar will miss games etc. We simply can't afford to let Porter AND Heaney go but Porter is rumoured to be signing for Connacht and Heaney is now a doubt to stay? Is Shanahan ready to step up... not sure about that.

It makes you wonder whether our coaches are making the squad players you need to have around feel appreciated enough. Our fringe players leave in the droves every year. While a lot of our fringe players aren't good enough and the Academy isn't producing enough quality players, we can't get by with this few players. The players who are leaving are not going to be replaced by Academy products.

In an ideal world I'd like to see another hooker, lock, scrum-half and two out halves sign on. If Humphreys and O'Hagan are done deals, then thats the 10s sorted. New Irish hooker and scrum-half please... talented NIQ lock.

If we are making a wish list - might I suggest another squad 15. Olding and Gilroy could cover maybe, but still not too sure about andrew/nelson (which one is staying again?)

On Penney/Foley. Penney doesn't get half enough credit. People talk about the breakdown against Toulouse but forget that Penney is a specialist in that area. And is the scrum coach too. The old saying "Be careful what you wish for" applies here. No doubt that Foley is very smart and a very good coach but he could still effect the balance of the squad.


On Munsters age. There are a few well into their 30s and another crop in their mid twenties. The gap between those two groups show that for a period of time - about the mid noughties - Munster produced nothing. The future looks good now with the exception of tighthead and centers. I'm hopeful there are a few tightheads in the pipeline.


On Leinster's age. Leinster are now where Munster were 3 or 4 years ago. A lot of old players either retiring or on the verge of retiring. Luckily they have the best academy system in Europe so it is then a matter of bringing young players up to speed.


On Ulster. Ulster fans seem very downbeat this week. I think you have a lot to look forward to. Court and Afoa will be no loss IMO. Court is getting on now and Afoa could't be bothered putting in the effort this season. The new players will be equally as good. As for retirements, the players in their late 20s have a few years yet at the top and thats long enough to plan for replacements.


On Connacht. They're building nicely. Every season they seem to get stronger and if they can keep it up and keep their star players they've a bright future. I would like to see more fringe players from the other squads move there. They are playing a nice brand of rugby now, under Lam but their pack is still a little lightweight.

To clarify Heaney will only be going if we sign an IQ 9 otherwise he will stay
As far as I am aware both Andrew and Nelson will be staying

In Annetts case it is not a case of us letting him go - it is him leaving as he doesn't see himself getting a chance

Penney hasn't brought a lot of new things to Munster, it's a style they employed under Gaffney and Kidney a bit. Nice interplay between backs and forwards and then use some of your speed out wide. McGahan used it to a degree but was less successful with a poor enough pack.


We've had mixed success with it. When it works it works incredibly well as seen by some stellar HC performances, if you can't get dominance in the pack well you're flahed.


I'd like to see Foley pick up where Penney left off, but Penney's style from a player management and coaching perspective seems quite unique. Axel deserves a lot of credit for how Munster's and Ireland's pack are doing. I wouldn't be against going to a more traditional Kidney pack mentality seen a bit in 2006 (Perpignan in particular, or a bit in 2008 in some of the group games). I wonder is a our lineout strong enough to dso it, seems quite inconsistent.

Penney has done a lot of great things but Axel seems well suited to it.

Thomond wrote:Penney hasn't brought a lot of new things to Munster, it's a style they employed under Gaffney and Kidney a bit. Nice interplay between backs and forwards and then use some of your speed out wide. McGahan used it to a degree but was less successful with a poor enough pack.


We've had mixed success with it. When it works it works incredibly well as seen by some stellar HC performances, if you can't get dominance in the pack well you're flahed.

Munster are playing a better brand of rugby now than they ever were. They're a threat out wide and can play the tight game. Theres a misconception that Penney is all about the wide wide game. In fact when he first signed we heard that his Canterbury team had different ways of playing and he was very open minded about it. Credit where its due.

I think we're doing it better then we were Prof but to say it was an alien concept or anything like that is wrong in my opinion. That's what people seem to think. We've been able to play it, but Penney has brought more consistency. We still experience some issues with it.

profitius wrote:

Thomond wrote:Penney hasn't brought a lot of new things to Munster, it's a style they employed under Gaffney and Kidney a bit. Nice interplay between backs and forwards and then use some of your speed out wide. McGahan used it to a degree but was less successful with a poor enough pack.


We've had mixed success with it. When it works it works incredibly well as seen by some stellar HC performances, if you can't get dominance in the pack well you're flahed.

Munster are playing a better brand of rugby now than they ever were. They're a threat out wide and can play the tight game. Theres a misconception that Penney is all about the wide wide game. In fact when he first signed we heard that his Canterbury team had different ways of playing and he was very open minded about it. Credit where its due.

Im not so sure we are - the game against Toulouse reminded me of how we beat the Ospreys in the QF in 09. Both then and now it was all about winning up front - we ran in a bag full of tries that day as well if I remember correctly. I think what Penney has brought more than anything is the development of a fully functioning squad with back up in most positions that do not weaken the team if called upon.

Pete330v2 wrote:I thought Munster were outstanding. Say what you like about Toulouse on the day but you really can only play what's in front of you and Munster executed the game plan so well and I am 100% behind the men in red for the Heiny win.
Don't let me down Munsty folk.

Speaking of Munsty where is he and Staggy? Did they leave these forums?

Stag is on v3, Scotty

Haven't heard from Munsty for donkies

Standulstermen wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I agree with all that Rodders and I'm not as down on the loss of Afoa, court and to a lesser extent muller as some but I'm just struggling to be positive this week

Stand - why do you think you won't win the league? Just how bad are the injuries at the moment?

Best, Pienaar (the key one), Wilson, Tuohy, probably Payne banned after today and three top 5 teams to play and three interpros.

So you aren't madly confident about playing us (Warriors) on 18 April in Glasgow, then?

Not wildly. If we get Payne and Afoa it will help.

Just Afoa available then, it would seem.

If even GC.
We can still put out a back three of Bowe, Gilroy and Trimble for the next two games with Payne to come back in for Leinster

Quite. It's not as through you are struggling for a quality back 3.

Now Conor Gilsenan is off to London Irish. They are putting together a big enough cohort of Irish. Finally living up to the name again.

The have:

O'Leary
Sheridan
Mulchorne
Hagan
Humphreys (off to Ulster)

They have brought in for next season

Tom Court
Griffin
Gilsenan

Standulstermen wrote:If even GC.
We can still put out a back three of Bowe, Gilroy and Trimble for the next two games with Payne to come back in for Leinster

I'd be surprise if Trimble plays against Connaught.

Either Scholes or Allen on the wing or Andrew at 15, I would suggest

I would be very surprised if Trimble plays in the next two weeks. He was concussed and I hope we've learnt our lesson about that with what happened to Luke Marshall last season. Return to play protocols should be observed, not fudged.

Hell- Best, Afoa, Tuohy, Wilson, Pienaar, Payne and possibly Trimble all out from Saturdays game. That's a hell of a high price to pay, half our first team. Lately you feel like if Ulster didn't have bad luck we'd have no luck at all!

The following is a bit self-indulgent but in the last few days I’ve been struck by the similarities between the current Leinster situation and Munster’s post 2008 and it does kinda fit in with the OP.

Going into the 2008/09 season Munster were the top seeded team in Europe, on the crest of a wave, their coach was appointed to the Ireland job and won the 6N in his first season and a new coach took over.

Then we lost our best and most influential back, Rua Topoki to a career ending injury and in a relatively short period we also lost Jerry Flannery, Denis Leamy, David Wallace, Ian Dowling and Barry Murphy to premature retirement, Alan Quinlan and John Hayes retired, Paul Warwick moved on and Paul O’Connell and Marcus Horan suffered career threatening injuries / illnesses and were absent for long periods.

It also became apparent that the new coach was struggling to build on the work of his predecessor.

Change the names and date and you have almost a mirror image with the current Leinster situation.

Going into the 2013/14 season Leinster are the top seeded team in Europe, on the crest of a wave, their coach was appointed to the Ireland job and won the 6N in his first season and a new coach took over.

Leinster have lost one of the finest backs to ever play rugby in this country in Isa Nacewa on top of already losing influential players like Brad Thorn, Rocky Elsom, Shane Horgan and Girvan Dempsey, BOD and Cullen will shortly retire to be closely followed in all probability by Jennings, Ross and D’Arcy, Sexton has moved on and SOB, Luke Fitzgerald and Richard Strauss have been badly affected by serious injuries / illnesses.

And it seems that some supporters / media are beginning to wonder if Matt O’Connor is capable of building on Schmidt’s work.

However I do think that Leinster should be in a far better position to deal with the turmoil than Munster were.

Firstly most of the retirements / departures have been well flagged and could be planned for.

Secondly as far as I can remember Leinster haven’t been hit with any premature retirements to critical players like Flannery, Wallace etc.

Thirdly Leinster still have a core group of quality players upon which to build a new team e.g. Rob Kearney, Madigan, SOB, Ruddock, Moore etc.

Combine that with an excellent academy and a few astute signings and Leinster should be right for road again in no time.

Players are replacable. Not one bit concerned with losing Nacewa, BOD etc. We have decent players coming through all the time. Every past hero we have had so far has been replaced by an able deputy.

More concerning for me is the management and coaching doesnt seem to be getting the most out of the current crop. In the past under Schmidt and Cheika Leinster tactically outsmarted opposition. That is not happening under Matt O'Connor.

Its a fair comparison. However the majority of players Munster lost through retirement or injury were in the pack. In Leinsters case its only really Cullen that needs replacing. Jennings isnt first choice and Ross has a couple of years left in him while his replacement is already biting at his heels. For Leinster the worrying positions in the first team are 9 12 and 13 and we need a few more 2nd string players in the back 3.

You can win games with a poor backline as long as you have a good pack, Munster proved that  for years . Buts its a lot harder to win games with a poor pack. That is where Munster had to rebuild over the last few years. Horan, Flannery, Sheehan, Hayes, Buckley, O'Driscoll, Wally and Leamy all went in a short time.

I think Leinster still have a good pack. We mightnt be able to play the most expansive rugby but we should still be there or there abouts at the end of the year. Plus our academy seems to produce more players then Munsters has done. For those reasons I dont see Leinsters rebuilding taking as long as Munsters.

However as has been said in the wake of the Toulon game, we need to develop a few more leaders in the squad.

Leinster are seriously lacking leadership, game managers. Ruddock could be a future leader, but they need to install him now. Kearney is good, if a bit far back from the action, but he can organise the backs at least. Sexton is a big loss from that point of view and its going to be even worse when BOD retires.

I think Ulster could have a similar problem as well with retirement of Muller. Rory Best is a by deed leader, but I think you need to have a leader with a bit of attitude as well. Cullen & BOD are going to be seriously missed. Munster are very, very lucky to have POM. I think Stander could be one who could also step up in a leadership role. He is very young and seems to be up for a challenge (by actually coming to Munster in the first place at a very young age).

Yes, Rory Best is a good leader but he's in and out of the squad with his Ireland commitments. Muller is the heartbeat of this team, but he's retiring at the right time- his body has taken enough punishment. If only he was 10 years younger! Chris Henry will likely be our next Captain. A good enough leader, but not the same presence as Muller by a long way. No-one in the squad has that aura. On field leadership is one of my big concerns for Ulster next season.

GunsGerms wrote:Players are replacable. Not one bit concerned with losing Nacewa, BOD etc. We have decent players coming through all the time. Every past hero we have had so far has been replaced by an able deputy.

More concerning for me is the management and coaching doesnt seem to be getting the most out of the current crop. In the past under Schmidt and Cheika Leinster tactically outsmarted opposition. That is not happening under Matt O'Connor.

This is a concern,the part that worries me most is in the early stage of the season when our attack was looking weak we were given the line that this was because the team were focusing on the defense.Well our defense hasn't really been that good,we have looked soft around the fringe of the ruck all season with the Scarlets in particular and Glasgow really showing us up there.Castres and Toulon in Europe both made a massive amount of linebreaks against us,so if MoC can't even get the part he's focusing on right then I worry about where he can take us.

We might just have to ride out his contract and hope that we can bring through someone who learned under Schmidt,it's a pity Gibbes wasn't given the job.

Notch wrote:I would be very surprised if Trimble plays in the next two weeks. He was concussed and I hope we've learnt our lesson about that with what happened to Luke Marshall last season. Return to play protocols should be observed, not fudged.

Hell- Best, Afoa, Tuohy, Wilson, Pienaar, Payne and possibly Trimble all out from Saturdays game. That's a hell of a high price to pay, half our first team. Lately you feel like if Ulster didn't have bad luck we'd have no luck at all!

Can I take this moment to applaude trimble, who whilst being assessed my medical staff for concussion, pulled away from them, to join his defensive line and along with Cave held ap a try. WHAT A MACHINE. And a very very proud ulsterman.     

Chris Henry captain, Diack vice is my guess for next year

Nice video from Leinster on the domestic game.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152306143365240