The state of Irish rugby:

European:
Leinster look like and play like a great side clearly capable of winning back-to-back HECs and an absolute delight to watch. You can't deny that they are head and shoulders above anyone else in the competition.
Munster are the Tigers of Ireland - Loads of dog and grit and some flair - but showing signs of slowly fading from the scene.
Ulster is the upcoming Province pushing to replace Munster as second side. But reliant on a large Saffer contingent (my favourite :wink:)

International:

Poor recently in terms of results.

The side is not equal to the sum of its parts:
And the popular opinion is that the current incumbent (whose contract was extended 12 months ago for an additional two years prior to RWC) needs replacing.

But Declan replaced EOS.
And the popular opinion was that Dec was better than a the then current incumbent (whose contract was extended for an additional four years 12 months prior to the 2007RWC) needed replacing.

But Eddy replaced Warren Gatland because he wasn't good enough ...

I think the Irish are over achieveing in the european Cup and under achieveing in international rugby.

Looking at their provinces players they should not be doing so well in the european cup, but they are.

It looks good for the Rabo Direct league though that nearly all the recent Heinake Cup, Grand slams and triple crowns have been won by nations competing in that league.

AlynDavd adies wrote:'I think the Irish are over achieveing in the european Cup and under achieveing in international rugby.

Looking at their provinces players they should not be doing so well in the european cup, but they are.

It looks good for the Rabo Direct league though that nearly all the recent Heinake Cup, Grand slams and triple crowns have been won by nations competing in that league.

I agree entirely Alyn. The Rabo teams/nations have collectively produced some impressive results from side and nations.

But this Article is not about the Rabo collectively, but about the Irish conundrum.

So I'd adjudge your post as a deliberate knock-on.
Penalty and YC warning.

The Irish provinces seen ahead of the game and the Irish team behind the game

The provinces are helped by the fact that they aren't really clubbed but centrally funded off-shoots of the national set up with the added ability to buy top class talent to fill key and weak positions.

The Irish team further handicaps itself by its selection policies and the restricted club set up from which it recruits.

So as AWJ says the provinces are stronger than they should be and the National side weaker

Overall though Irish rugby is in a much healthier state than in say the nineties and is a good position to move forwards with a good crop of talent coming through

I've been scratching my head a while now why provincial form hasn't translated into better performances for Ireland - blaming the coach is perhaps a bit simplified so here is some of my thinking:

1. Players not good enough - this doesn't wash with me - we have a handful of worldclass players and tighthead aside have reasonable depth.
2. Luck - Ok good teams should make their own luck, but when Ireland won the slam we had a few narrow wins and luck was on our side. This year we had very little go our way. That saying luck has little to do with performances....
3. Variety - Ireland have felt very predictable to me over the last 3 seasons and teams are finding them out. Lack of variation in gameplans is a big factor in my opinion
4. Small backline - size shouldn't matter but there have been times the lads have been Muppet...
5. Sexton - brilliant for Leinster but yet to really bring that to Ireland - i'm not sure if this is linked to tactics he has to run with or whether he just can't bring it to international level
6. No true openside - SOB looked better this year in the breakdown area but he's way off the pocock/mcaw/warburton levels - this role is key is helping with continuity and the all important counter attacks from turnover ball
7. Scrumhalf quality - we have decent scrumhalves but all have weaknesses and none of the current crop have stringers accuracy
8. Tighthead - Ross aside we are doomed here and need more depth
9. Coaching/Tactics - Ireland's gameplans focus on getting a small lead and then defending for the rest of the game - while i'm sure not deliberate this is the result of how the lads are coached but something needs changing here. We also need to vary patterns of play more during games, its all too obvious!
10. Passion - when ireland are truely fired up (eg v australia or v england at home) very few teams can live with us - i have no idea why they can't do this more regularly

No real conclusion here, i'm just trying to point out that while coaching is a factor (points 3, 5, 9) there are many other reasons why Ireland are not performing.

Little John, I don't think not having a true 7 is a problem. These days all players pilfer the ruck. If you have a balanced back row, all skilled I don't see the necessity for a specialist 7.

We don't need a 7, but as we saw with Munster yesterday, you need guys to secrure the ball for the scrumhalf before you start running off the 10 or from the scrum half, Murray was killed because of it.

Yeah, but that speaks more of the collectvie effort of the pack as a whole to secure breakdown ball. The other thing is getting the necessary numbers at the ruck.

Yes I know, 7 isn't a problem, we have a very high rate of creating turnovers equal to that of the other countries.

I agree Ireland have a decent turnover rate, my point on the natural 7 is linked to first phase ball and the ability to help create fast continuity. granted its probably not a major factor with ireland's performance but i always consider it, especially when the 3 most attractive playing international teams all have class no 7s

Well we have a topclass fetcher and it doesn't help us to play attractive rugby.

The gameplan these days require quick ball at every breakdown and often it will be a prop, centre or even wing that will "fetch" the ball.

Is it the marquee imports that explain more fully the performance difference between the Provinces and the national sides?

Before I saw this I had just written an article which gives my answer for the gulf in class between the provinces and the Irish team (and gulf in class is not an exaggeration). It's the same players. But rugby philosophy from the man in charge of the Irish team is completely unsuited to the players Ireland have.

https://www.606v2.com/t27433-joe-schmidt-s-rugby-philosophy-is-more-suited-to-ireland-than-kidney-s

Portnoy, the imports obviously help the provinces. Especially at tighthead. And no coach could have saved Ireland in Twickenham. But the Welsh sides have more foreigners than us. And they can still field a Grand Slam winning side. We're waaay off the standard of play we should be at.

Deccie is Ireland's problem. It's obvious. It's glaringly obvious.

I would say the conservative nature of the coaching staff in the international set up is the main issue.

The state of the game in Ireland is better than fine. If things keep progressing the way they are I could see rugby really dominating Irish sport in a decade or two.
Grass roots the game seems fine, I know playing numbers were down slightly, but that was before the RWC so things should be OK, looking at the trend anyway.
The provinces are doing grand. With Ulster reaching the Semis and with a new stadium on the way, Leinster being their normal brilliant selfs and Connaguht apparently getting better each season the only real weakness is Munster, really just because they are ageing so badly now.
And of course there appears to be plenty of money in the game with good decent crowds.

So that leaves the coaching staff at the international level. I like Kidney but why Paddy Wallace, Leo Cullen, Ronan O'Gara, Gordon Darcy and the likes were doing near that squad is anyone's guess.
So many pundits are now pointing towards Donnacha Ryan as the next big Irish prospect, the man is 28!! We wouldn't have even found him if it wasn't for injury. Where is the likes of Tuohy and Gilroy??

Just think we need a fresh up, whole backroom staff as well. Let's be radical and bring through some lads. Not a complete clear out of players but we should be looking to find someone to replace King Brian, because obviously Earls isn't up to the job.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Before I saw this I had just written an article which gives my answer for the gulf in class between the provinces and the Irish team (and gulf in class is not an exaggeration). It's the same players. But rugby philosophy from the man in charge of the Irish team is completely unsuited to the players Ireland have.

https://www.606v2.com/t27433-joe-schmidt-s-rugby-philosophy-is-more-suited-to-ireland-than-kidney-s

Portnoy, the imports obviously help the provinces. Especially at tighthead. And no coach could have saved Ireland in Twickenham. But the Welsh sides have more foreigners than us. And they can still field a Grand Slam winning side. We're waaay off the standard of play we should be at.

Deccie is Ireland's problem. It's obvious. It's glaringly obvious.

As was Gatland a couple of coaches back Fecless?

It's not as if Ireland are constantly changing coaches Portnoy. We've changed twice in 14 years. We give our coaches time. Both Gatland and EOS did good things for Ireland. Both eventually lost their jobs because they both eventually lost the plot. Most coaching setups tend to start to go stale after four years or so anyway. We saw it with Cheika at Leinster. Again, he did a great job, but things were really going stale and he moved on at the right time. Kidney has had plenty of time and Ireland are getting progressively worse under him. Every year has been worse than the one before it.

I think there's a lot of logic in my arguments for replacing Kidney. I don't think I'm just scapegoating him because I think Ireland are better than they are. There's a lot of evidence to back up what I'm saying about how wrong Kidney's overall rugby philosophy is for Ireland. There's also many clearly poor selections, poor use of the bench, as well as obvious tactical mistakes.

As far as the Irish team go it's not the style of play that annoys me it's the inability to change it when it's not working. This I put down to the players more than the coaches. The match against Wales in the World Cup was crazy from that point of view. Where is the plan B? Or C or D? If there is one why does no one cop on and try it?

I also agree that when the team play with passion they are phenomenal. But I don't think that it's possible to play like this is the most important game of your life every week. I don't think that I could anyway.

I think that the IRFU has the right idea in mind with there limiting on the number of foreign players in each position in Ireland. I don't think that the way that they're going about it is smart but it needs to be done.

What bothers me most about the future of rugby in this country is the continuing hemorrhage of players from the sport after they leave school. There are relatively few clubs in Ireland compared to our player numbers and these have no obvious connection with the schools. This is bad for the club game and the sport in general. The way things are now is just crazy. Plenty of players improve after the age of eighteen but if they never play again they will never know what they're capable of and the club game will contribute less and less over time to the national side. This make the academy by eighteen or give up the sport mentality is terrible.

Intotouch wrote:This make the academy by eighteen or give up the sport mentality is terrible.

It's true. The strong schools game should be an asset. But players are giving up forever after school. Others often compliment us on our rugby setup. It's true that the provincial sides are great, but the club game is not the healthiest.

Portnoy wrote:Is it the marquee imports that explain more fully the performance difference between the Provinces and the national sides?

I fully agree with that statement. Although, I must say it is not necessary a bad thing. What I can see is where Ireland are weak, they have filled the void with top quality NIQ signings. As a result the provinces are very strong but the national team suffers. It just goes to show that the IRFU are very good at spotting talent, but are not as good at producing it, I did not say they were not good, just not as good. The foreign imports at the Irish provinces really do make a difference which ever way you look at it, and if it were not for them they would not be half as successful, perhaps they should sacrifice immediate glory and blood strength in the weaker positions for long term provincial and national glory in the future.

p.s I have also heard that Mick O'Driscoll is retiring at the end of the season and Munster are looking at a NIQ player to replace him.

Sorry LordDowlais but that is utter rubbish. Leinster for example could easily field an entirely irish 15 and lose very little in doing so. Leinster are definitely a better team than Ireland as well. Where do Ireland as a whole have NIQ players in the provinces to replace our "weak" spots? Other than at tight-head (where Leinster start Ross) what weak spots do the NIQs apparently fill?

The provinces perform better because they actually play an expansive game that suits its players. Simple as that. Kidney doesn't play an effective game plan, and as a result the players look half as good in the green. You play to your strengths.

LordDowlais wrote:p.s I have also heard that Mick O'Driscoll is retiring at the end of the season and Munster are looking at a NIQ player to replace him.

He is definitely retiring. I'm surprised we are looking for a foriegn second row. Makes no sense to me though we have a spare place at Munster already.

Wian du Preez, BJ Botha, Casey Laulala and Doug Howlett. Thats 4 so we can have 1 more.

I think we're fine at second row. I'd be looking for a backrow guaranteed to get us over the gain line or a creative #10 who can cover at 12.

Mick O'Driscoll isn't a first team player. Ryan, O'Callaghan and O'Connell are all ahead of him, so an NIQ would be there as cover. As for Ireland not producing talent as well as they can scout it? You are living in cuckoo land mate. You talk some nonsense.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Mick O'Driscoll isn't a first team player. Ryan, O'Callaghan and O'Connell are all ahead of him, so an NIQ would be there as cover. As for Ireland not producing talent as well as they can scout it? You are living in cuckoo land mate. You talk some nonsense.

Believe! (?)

LordDowlias point isn't totally true, but it isn't utter rubbish either. Neither Munster or Ulster would be as good without their foreign tightheads. It's a pivotal position, and we have zero depth there as a nation, as our English neighbours kindly reminded us recently.

However tighthead is really the only position where you can honestly say the Irish provincial rugby would be far weaker without foreigners. You're right, that Leinster could win the Heineken Cup with 15 Irish men. They really could...... as long as Ross didn't get injured.

Munster won the HC with an Irish pack. I didn't follow rugby back in '99 but I presume Ulsters HC winning team were nearly all from Ulster.

Tighthead is Ireland's achilles heel. But look what Australia have achieved without ever having the strongest scrum. They overcome that weakness by playing to their strengths. They're still vulnerable to getting scrummaged off the field like England did to us recently, and England did to them in the 2007 RWC. But they're also Tri-nations holders and have two RWC's.

Irish rugby is held back by internal political issues which other countries don't have.

I'm not just talking about North- South but East- West too.

Other International teams are concerned only with getting the best players on the pitch whereas the Irish national selectors are trying to maintain a provincial balance and create a team which is all things to all people.

Ultimately what we then have is a disjointed team made up of quality, but in some cases underperforming, players which lacks cohesion on the field and a gameplan which all the players selected with are comfortable with and capable of performing.

If Wales pick 12 Ospreys then no one would bat an eyelid as long as Wales are winning but if an Irish coach selected 12 Leinster players the place would go bananas, regardless of how well the team performed.

Unfortunately until Irish fans and media can see past their provincial and political loyalties then we will not be on an even footing with everyone else.

LordDowlais,

Its actually a very good point. We do scout excellently and we generally buy good players.

However we have also signed some horrible clangers - Chrisitan Cullen, Chris Wyatt, CJ van der Linde, Owen Finnegan, Brian Lima are some high profile flops where as some of our best signings have been relatively low key.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sorry LordDowlais but that is utter rubbish. Leinster for example could easily field an entirely irish 15 and lose very little in doing so. Leinster are definitely a better team than Ireland as well. Where do Ireland as a whole have NIQ players in the provinces to replace our "weak" spots? Other than at tight-head (where Leinster start Ross) what weak spots do the NIQs apparently fill?

The provinces perform better because they actually play an expansive game that suits its players. Simple as that. Kidney doesn't play an effective game plan, and as a result the players look half as good in the green. You play to your strengths.

O. k then, when O'Gara retires from international rugby you will have Sexton then who ? When O'Driscoll and D'Arcy retire you who will you have behind Earls and Mcfadden, when Paul O'Connell and Donnacha O'Callagan retire then who ? I could go on but lets be honest about it you do not have the quality,yet, coming through as the quality you will be loosing. I know Leinster would still be good with they're all Irish players, but players like Mafi are quality players who have done wonders for them. I am not knocking it I am just giving my opinion, there is no need to get so defensive about it, as I am entitled to my opinion.

It wouldn't be completely stupid for Munster to sign an NIQ lock. The way they are going to view it, they will be without O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Ryan for large chunks of the season.

The problem is if they start this lock in the Heineken Cup, you'd assume that Munster could- and really should- have 3 Irish locks in their matchday squad in the Heineken Cup next year. But the fact is O'Connell will play maybe 4/5 Pro12 games next year, and Ryan and O'Callaghan maybe between 8 and 12 each? That leaves a lot of games.

I'm personally disappointed that they won't be putting more faith in Ian Nagle, but I understand Billy Holland and Dave O'Callaghan have developed into more backrow players. It may well just be a numbers game. What other prospects are there at lock?

roddersm wrote:Irish rugby is held back by internal political issues which other countries don't have.

I'm not just talking about North- South but East- West too.

Other International teams are concerned only with getting the best players on the pitch whereas the Irish national selectors are trying to maintain a provincial balance and create a team which is all things to all people.

Ultimately what we then have is a disjointed team made up of quality, but in some cases underperforming, players which lacks cohesion on the field and a gameplan which all the players selected with are comfortable with and capable of performing.

If Wales pick 12 Ospreys then no one would bat an eyelid as long as Wales are winning but if an Irish coach selected 12 Leinster players the place would go bananas, regardless of how well the team performed.

Unfortunately until Irish fans and media can see past their provincial and political loyalties then we will not be on an even footing with everyone else.

Jeez Rodders! I never thought of Ireland as being a mini-Lions. Could that be true?
Presumably Connacht have frequently been unrepresented - but what about the other Provinces?

Dowlais, isn't talking utter rubbish. He;s not necessarily right either but feck it we have done well recruiting why not celebrate it.

Jim Williams, Isa Nacewa, Rocky Elsom, Trevor Halstead, John Langford, Johann Muller, Ruan Pienaar, Felipe Contempomi have been superb over last 10 years.

LordDowlais wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sorry LordDowlais but that is utter rubbish. Leinster for example could easily field an entirely irish 15 and lose very little in doing so. Leinster are definitely a better team than Ireland as well. Where do Ireland as a whole have NIQ players in the provinces to replace our "weak" spots? Other than at tight-head (where Leinster start Ross) what weak spots do the NIQs apparently fill?

The provinces perform better because they actually play an expansive game that suits its players. Simple as that. Kidney doesn't play an effective game plan, and as a result the players look half as good in the green. You play to your strengths.

O. k then, when O'Gara retires from international rugby you will have Sexton then who ? When O'Driscoll and D'Arcy retire you who will you have behind Earls and Mcfadden, when Paul O'Connell and Donnacha O'Callagan retire then who ? I could go on but lets be honest about it you do not have the quality,yet, coming through as the quality you will be loosing. I know Leinster would still be good with they're all Irish players, but players like Mafi are quality players who have done wonders for them. I am not knocking it I am just giving my opinion, there is no need to get so defensive about it, as I am entitled to my opinion.

So you haven't heard of Madigan? The young talent at Leinster who everything thinks could be better than Sexton? Cave, Hanrahan, Spence, O'Malley, Marshall in the centres? Ryan (who is starting over DOC anyway!), Tuohy, Toner in the second row. You could go on, but I will just continue to list you the young talent we have available to us. Just because you don't know anything about the young talent at irish rugby, doesn't mean there isn't any.

Portnoy wrote:

roddersm wrote:Irish rugby is held back by internal political issues which other countries don't have.

I'm not just talking about North- South but East- West too.

Other International teams are concerned only with getting the best players on the pitch whereas the Irish national selectors are trying to maintain a provincial balance and create a team which is all things to all people.

Ultimately what we then have is a disjointed team made up of quality, but in some cases underperforming, players which lacks cohesion on the field and a gameplan which all the players selected with are comfortable with and capable of performing.

If Wales pick 12 Ospreys then no one would bat an eyelid as long as Wales are winning but if an Irish coach selected 12 Leinster players the place would go bananas, regardless of how well the team performed.

Unfortunately until Irish fans and media can see past their provincial and political loyalties then we will not be on an even footing with everyone else.

Jeez Rodders! I never thought of Ireland as being a mini-Lions. Could that be true?
Presumably Connacht have frequently been unrepresented - but what about the other Provinces?

Completely true and a great analogy that I have long felt. There is far more unity for provinces than for Ireland.

WAY WAY WAY more

Plus how has Mafi added quality to Leinster?? He plays for Munster! I don't think you actually know much about irish rugby.

LordDowlais wrote:
O. k then, when O'Gara retires from international rugby you will have Sexton then who ? When O'Driscoll and D'Arcy retire you who will you have behind Earls and Mcfadden, when Paul O'Connell and Donnacha O'Callagan retire then who ? I could go on but lets be honest about it you do not have the quality,yet, coming through as the quality you will be loosing. I know Leinster would still be good with they're all Irish players, but players like Mafi are quality players who have done wonders for them. I am not knocking it I am just giving my opinion, there is no need to get so defensive about it, as I am entitled to my opinion.

a) Ian Madigan, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanaran, Ian Keatley
b) Darren Cave, Nevin Spence, Eoin O'Malley, JJ Hanaran, Luke Marshall
c) Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner
d) Mafi plays for Munster and is leaving at the end of the season

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sorry LordDowlais but that is utter rubbish. Leinster for example could easily field an entirely irish 15 and lose very little in doing so. Leinster are definitely a better team than Ireland as well. Where do Ireland as a whole have NIQ players in the provinces to replace our "weak" spots? Other than at tight-head (where Leinster start Ross) what weak spots do the NIQs apparently fill?

The provinces perform better because they actually play an expansive game that suits its players. Simple as that. Kidney doesn't play an effective game plan, and as a result the players look half as good in the green. You play to your strengths.

O. k then, when O'Gara retires from international rugby you will have Sexton then who ? When O'Driscoll and D'Arcy retire you who will you have behind Earls and Mcfadden, when Paul O'Connell and Donnacha O'Callagan retire then who ? I could go on but lets be honest about it you do not have the quality,yet, coming through as the quality you will be loosing. I know Leinster would still be good with they're all Irish players, but players like Mafi are quality players who have done wonders for them. I am not knocking it I am just giving my opinion, there is no need to get so defensive about it, as I am entitled to my opinion.

So you haven't heard of Madigan? The young talent at Leinster who everything thinks could be better than Sexton? Cave, Hanrahan, Spence, O'Malley, Marshall in the centres? Ryan (who is starting over DOC anyway!), Tuohy, Toner in the second row. You could go on, but I will just continue to list you the young talent we have available to us. Just because you don't know anything about the young talent at irish rugby, doesn't mean there isn't any.

Of course I have heard of all those players, it's not as if I have been living in a cave for the last two years. Look, all those players have the ability to become true greats, but they are not as good as the players coming to the twilight of their careers are they ? So, please do not patronise me, as I do actually watch rugby, and to blame it all on Declan Kidney is a little unfair as he is not actually controlling the players and telling them to make the wrong decisions on the pitch, or to give away silly penalty's or knock the ball on in vital positions is he.

Portnoy wrote:
Jeez Rodders! I never thought of Ireland as being a mini-Lions. Could that be true?
Presumably Connacht have frequently been unrepresented - but what about the other Provinces?

Its definitely true and its becoming more and more apparant the stronger the provinces become.

It wasn't so much an issue a few seasons ago because we has less depth. Munster had great forwards and Leinster had great backs... Ulster had er David Humphreys and Connacht was a nice place to go on Holiday....

Now everyone wants a piece of the action and the cracks are forming.

The watershed came when Leinster won the HEC I think, KOing Munster on the way.

No amount of National pride seems to be able to suppress the provincial rivalries within the country, particulary but not exclusively between Munster and Leinster. As Ulster get stronger the problems will get worse.

That is just like my opinion man

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Plus how has Mafi added quality to Leinster?? He plays for Munster! I don't think you actually know much about irish rugby.

Sorry I meant Nacewa, I always get them pair mixed up.

Dowlais,

The likes of Paul O'Connell, Ronan O'Gara and Brian O'Driscoll are seriously amazing players. Their achievements are incredible.

Reserve guys stepping up won't automatically be as good. But we now need Rob Kearney and Stephen Ferris to step up and be those talismanic figures.

I presume it was the coaching teams orders to kick the ball straight down the middle rather than into touch. They handed the ball on a plate to Wales strength. The big backs. They declined employ a kicking game that would attack Wales major weakness. The lineout.

I'm sure it was the coaching team that decided to employ a drift defence against Wales. A crazy tactic. When you have backs that big you rush up and cut them down quickly before they build up speed. Not stand off them and let them reach full speed. Mind boggling coaching decision.

Two clear tactical errors that handed the initiative a very good and very confident Welsh team. Given that we lost by a last minute penalty, I think it really is totally reasonable to blame the coaches for that defeat.

LordDowlais wrote:
Of course I have heard of all those players, it's not as if I have been living in a cave for the last two years. Look, all those players have the ability to become true greats, but they are not as good as the players coming to the twilight of their careers are they ? So, please do not patronise me, as I do actually watch rugby, and to blame it all on Declan Kidney is a little unfair as he is not actually controlling the players and telling them to make the wrong decisions on the pitch, or to give away silly penalty's or knock the ball on in vital positions is he.

So you acknowledge the fact that there are plenty of brilliant options Ireland have to choose from in nearly all positions except for tight-head, and you have acknowledged that these players have a lot of potential and could become great, so why did you ask who Ireland would replace ROG/BOD/POC with, when you already know the answers yourself? Obviously they aren't as good yet, because they lack experience at the top level unlike the players you mention. As you have already pointed out however, they have the potential to become great, like ROG/BOD/POC etc. So I don't get your point.

red_stag wrote:Dowlais,

The likes of Paul O'Connell, Ronan O'Gara and Brian O'Driscoll are seriously amazing players. Their achievements are incredible.

Reserve guys stepping up won't automatically be as good. But we now need Rob Kearney and Stephen Ferris to step up and be those talismanic figures.

Stag, I am not saying they wont either But you seriuosly need this to happen sooner rather than later. I do not want to compare your Irish system with our Welsh one as that is not what this post is about, and it will open a hornets nest . But we seem to have ready made replacements here. Even though our regions are not well supported, they are actually working. We will not see the best of our regions until all the bickering stops either, but I honestly feel we will get there. Also, I am not trying to take anything away from Irish rugby here, as what the Irish provinces have achieved should be the bar that everyone sets their heights to they really are the pinacle of European rugby, but to just dismiss the quality that the NIQ players have brought to your provinces could sound a little arrogant.

Who has dismissed the quality of the NIQ players though? Your statement that Ireland are better at buying talent than producing it, is what is being dismissed.

roddersm wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
O. k then, when O'Gara retires from international rugby you will have Sexton then who ? When O'Driscoll and D'Arcy retire you who will you have behind Earls and Mcfadden, when Paul O'Connell and Donnacha O'Callagan retire then who ? I could go on but lets be honest about it you do not have the quality,yet, coming through as the quality you will be loosing. I know Leinster would still be good with they're all Irish players, but players like Mafi are quality players who have done wonders for them. I am not knocking it I am just giving my opinion, there is no need to get so defensive about it, as I am entitled to my opinion.

a) Ian Madigan, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanaran, Ian Keatley
b) Darren Cave, Nevin Spence, Eoin O'Malley, JJ Hanaran, Luke Marshall
c) Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner
d) Mafi plays for Munster and is leaving at the end of the season

Yeh, to be replaced by Casey Lau Lua.

Nope, Mafi plays 12, and is being replaced by another irish 12. Laulala is a 13.

Jeebs Rodders, I feel a new post coming on likening the Rabo to Gondwanaland with its tectonic plate shifts, mountainous upthrusts, shattering earthquakes, aftershocks and warning tremors along with the associated aftermaths of decimation.

For another time maybe. I've already started a post about the Titanic and Ulster peace that has grown many gruesome heads...

Its OK, Dowlais I understand where you are coming from although I dont agree with all of it.

roddersm wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
O. k then, when O'Gara retires from international rugby you will have Sexton then who ? When O'Driscoll and D'Arcy retire you who will you have behind Earls and Mcfadden, when Paul O'Connell and Donnacha O'Callagan retire then who ? I could go on but lets be honest about it you do not have the quality,yet, coming through as the quality you will be loosing. I know Leinster would still be good with they're all Irish players, but players like Mafi are quality players who have done wonders for them. I am not knocking it I am just giving my opinion, there is no need to get so defensive about it, as I am entitled to my opinion.

a) Ian Madigan, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanaran, Ian Keatley
b) Darren Cave, Nevin Spence, Eoin O'Malley, JJ Hanaran, Luke Marshall
c) Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner
d) Mafi plays for Munster and is leaving at the end of the season

How many caps for Ireland have any of those got ?

red_stag wrote:Its OK, Dowlais I understand where you are coming from although I dont agree with all of it.

Fair enough stag, but lets be honest, it's only my opinion, and my opinion always counts for nothing.

LordDowlais wrote:but to just dismiss the quality that the NIQ players have brought to your provinces could sound a little arrogant.

Yes and to attribute the disproportianate success that the provinces have had and continue to have compared to the National side to a limited and relatively small number of NIQ players strikes of complete ignorance.

Leinster are reigning HEC champions and probably the best team in Europe. They have 3 NIQs in their starting line up. Do you seriously think that there is not the quality players available from the other teams to plug the gap left by Nacewa and Thorn?

If you take the Irish qualified Leinster players and add the likes of Paul O'Connell, Stephen Ferris, Tommy Bowe, Donnacha Ryan, Peter O'Mahoney, Rory Best, keith Earls, Conor Murray, Dan Tuohy, Darren Cave, Andrew Trimble, Ronan O'Gara etc. into the mix then the sum of the parts should be much better, not worse than the Leinster 1st XV.

Lack off players is certainly not Irelands problem.