Ian Ritchie, saviour of the European club rugby competition

First topic message reminder :

Interesting article on main bbc sport page, can't paste link from mobile site...but I thought our Celtic cousins would particularly enjoy this quote from Ian Ritchie towards the end of the article...

"We spent a lot of time with Mark McCafferty and Bruce Craig at Premiership Rugby, and there was a lot of imagination and creativity coming out of them to try and secure this deal as well. So you have to look at this as a team approach.

"I think it's been well worth the effort. We have a very exciting competition ahead, and a great future for the game in Europe."

quinsforever wrote:"No they are not. PRL turnover 30 June, 2003 = 28m. PRL turnover 30 June 2013 = 41m (10 years).
30 June 2013. Cash: 163K. Net worth -104.2k GBP. Liabilities 12.8m."

think you'll find that it was you who mentioned june 2013 hence why i wanted the link.

i was not referring to ERC withheld payments. I was referring to PRL's liabilities. a full annual report would have notes indicating what these refer to.

The 80K audit fee didn't help their balance sheet (compared to the ERC's costing 25K euro).

Some old pal of McCaff's doing well then  

So can we both agree now that the ERC outperformed the PRL please?  

dont be absurd. the only conclusion from your extremely selectively chosen numbers is that erc's reported income grew more than prl's reported income according to your as yet unpublished accounts of each. excludes revenues from AP playoffs and final. ignores the very low starting point of ERC's income in early years whereas the AP was more established. so many flaws to your comparisons its not even worth discussing.

completely and utterly irrelevant.

i notice that you have completely failed to castigate the ERC for failing to outperform the top14's increase of 400% in tv rights over the same comparable period.

the only thing that is relevant is whether ERC should have done better than they did. and their handling of this whole affair, cloak-and-dagger, with secret handshakes, and complete failures to either negotiate or understand the strength of feeling arraigned against them, shows that THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE BETTER. either in keeping the thing together, or in meeting the demands of those who bring the financial clout. The only thing ERC succeeded in recently is bringing about their own dissolution.   

Quins, I'm using the audited accounts that they have been lodged in the companies' office.

Why would it exclude income earned from the playoffs?

What is the point of claiming that the PRL were better off 20 years ago than the ERC. It just shows that the ERC grew the competition that they are outperforming the PRL now and is the reason why the PRL wanted to get its hands on its revenues.

I'll repeat again, we can't compare the FFR & ERC tv deals because when the French tv deal kicks in, the ERC will not exist.

Did the period of rapid growth in the ERC correspond to the mythical period that McCafferty was chairman of the commercial committee?

No point arguing with you. Your ability to marshal irrelevancies and masquerade them as evidence for your arguments is astonishing.

If your cherished ERC had been any good whatsoever, then their "success" and "outperformance" should have ensured their continued role atop the Heineken cup. To argue anything else is clearly pointless as reality has overtaken the irrelevant conjecture which has characterised much of this debate.

quinsforever wrote:No point arguing with you. Your ability to marshal irrelevancies and masquerade them as evidence for your arguments is astonishing.

If your cherished ERC had been any good whatsoever, then their "success" and "outperformance" should have ensured their continued role atop the Heineken cup. To argue anything else is clearly pointless as reality has overtaken the irrelevant conjecture which has characterised much of this debate.

G'wan Quins, produce a set of audited accounts that proves the ERC didn't outperform the PRL over the last 10 years.   

the clue is the word "outperform". PRL will still be here next year so they have clearly outperformed ERC.

QED

HammerofThunor wrote:Did the period of rapid growth in the ERC correspond to the mythical period that McCafferty was chairman of the commercial committee?

You hardly think that McCafferty ever had the best interests of the ERC at heart when he was chairman of the commerical committee. All he ever wanted to do was to sink it.

quinsforever wrote:the clue is the word "outperform". PRL will still be here next year so they have clearly outperformed ERC.

QED

The rate the PRL clubs are losing money, I wouldn't count on them being around for much longer in their present format.

not to worry. even ignoring the fact that you are incorrect, and are confusing investment (in sarries stadium) with operating losses, with the extra money from the improved rugby champions cup, plus extra from the RFU for EPS players, i think we can look forwards finally to an era of profitability for all clubs on an operating basis within the PRL. And top14 too for that matter.

so much as they are the pantomime villain, in this respect, once again, one has to say that the PRL has outperformed ERC in delivering value to English clubs.

quinsforever wrote:not to worry. even ignoring the fact that you are incorrect, and are confusing investment (in sarries stadium) with operating losses, with the extra money from the improved rugby champions cup, plus extra from the RFU for EPS players, i think we can look forwards finally to an era of profitability for all clubs on an operating basis within the PRL. And top14 too for that matter.

so much as they are the pantomime villain, in this respect, once again, one has to say that the PRL has outperformed ERC in delivering value to English clubs.

Saracens are in debt to the tune of 35m. Their ground redevelopment was 24m.

operating loss vs debt? didnt i mention that might be more relevant? no-one ever valued a business based on its static amount of debt. no-one. apart from you...

quinsforever wrote:operating loss vs debt? didnt i mention that might be more relevant? no-one ever valued a business based on its static amount of debt. no-one. apart from you...

   Saracens Operating profit:

30 June 2013: -5.9m. Turnover 9.7m.
30 June 2012: -5.8m. Turnover 7.7m.
30 June 2011: -5.5m
30 June 2010: -6.4m
30 June 2009: -3.9m. Turnover 6.5m.
30 June 2008: -2.8m

The guts of 30m in losses over the last 6 years. Its getting worse as well, not better.   

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Did the period of rapid growth in the ERC correspond to the mythical period that McCafferty was chairman of the commercial committee?

You hardly think that McCafferty ever had the best interests of the ERC at heart when he was chairman of the commerical committee. All he ever wanted to do was to sink it.

So McCafferty was part of the commercial committee of the ERC so why is he whinging? But none of the improvements in the commercial aspects of the ERC are down to the chairman?   

When was McCafferty on the commercial committee anyway?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Did the period of rapid growth in the ERC correspond to the mythical period that McCafferty was chairman of the commercial committee?

You hardly think that McCafferty ever had the best interests of the ERC at heart when he was chairman of the commerical committee. All he ever wanted to do was to sink it.

So McCafferty was part of the commercial committee of the ERC so why is he whinging? But none of the improvements in the commercial aspects of the ERC are down to the chairman?   

When was McCafferty on the commercial committee anyway?

I don't know. All references to the period he was in office seems to have been wiped except on ESPN which doesn't give the dates. Presumably he had to resign when he started discussions with BT which was around in 2012. His position was taken over by the Chairman of Toulouse.

http://www.espn.co.uk/premiership-2011-12/rugby/story/154140.html

This doesn't mention him as being on it. Instead it has an IFRU guy on the committee (doesn't say chairman). I've struggled to find anything official that suggests he was ever chairman (which I'm sure he was) and nothing about when

It says here that:

McCafferty also serves as commercial chairman of the ERC, the body that governs the Heineken Cup and European Challenge Cup.

http://www.espn.co.uk/premiership/rugby/player/79580.html

But that's wrong isn't it because he's not. So it's at least 2 years out of date.

The top bit says "2009/2010" so maybe it was then. Were any deal renewed under his chairmanship? TV was already done. I think Heineken was done in 2008 so that was maybe before him. Who knows.

HammerofThunor wrote:But that's wrong isn't it because he's not. So it's at least 2 years out of date.

The top bit says "2009/2010" so maybe it was then. Were any deal renewed under his chairmanship? TV was already done. I think Heineken was done in 2008 so that was maybe before him. Who knows.

I know he is not chair now and it hasn't been updated with that information. We just know that he was chair and that he did resign at some stage.

Why didn't he pull in the BT deal to the ERC then instead of going behind everyone's back (with the backing of BT) and stealing the competition in an effort to prop up his own competition.

Survival of the fittest is his mantra (then we have to listen to this Poopie about him wanting to develop rugby in other nations). All cowpat. He is very happy to destroy it in Scotland, Wales & Italy (and if he could Ireland as well).

listening to you bleat on and on almost makes me wish mccafferty all the luck in his endeavour. almost.

your attitude and consistent denial of reality are a pretty decent approximation of the reason the french and english clubs and unions had had enough of the cosy ERC club catering to the interests of the minority.

anyway. i'm done with this thread. it's going nowhere, and as the OP makes clear, mccafferty and the PRL won. IRFU, WRU and ERC were outmatched and thought they had better cards than they did.

quinsforever wrote:listening to you bleat on and on almost makes me wish mccafferty all the luck in his endeavour. almost.

your attitude and consistent denial of reality are a pretty decent approximation of the reason the french and english clubs and unions had had enough of the cosy ERC club catering to the interests of the minority.

anyway. i'm done with this thread. it's going nowhere, and as the OP makes clear, mccafferty and the PRL won. IRFU, WRU and ERC were outmatched and thought they had better cards than they did.

You may have won this battle, but you have lost the war (with the French). You will never be able to compete with them.

U don't get it. I couldn't care less how much money is in french club rugby. I want a competition with fair qualification - no chance of that to the degree I would prefer as the rabo will never have relegation - and fair distribution of money.

I abhor subsidies. They create dependence, laziness and a really ugly sense of entitlement. And I dislike the HC being viewed as a dry run or test squad players in club colours. I love seeing ASM and Toulons star studded players run out. It's not about nationality. That is the key point that the celts are all missing. Thinking small and missing the bigger picture.

quinsforever wrote:U don't get it. I couldn't care less how much money is in french club rugby. I want a competition with fair qualification - no chance of that to the degree I would prefer as the rabo will never have relegation - and fair distribution of money.

I abhor subsidies. They create dependence, laziness and a really ugly sense of entitlement. And I dislike the HC being viewed as a dry run or test squad players in club colours. I love seeing ASM and Toulons star studded players run out. It's not about nationality. That is the key point that the celts are all missing. Thinking small and missing the bigger picture.

Is that why the Quins fans flogged their tickets to Munster supporters for last year QF - no super stars on view in the Munster team ?   


So far Clermont and Toulon have 1 Heineken Cup between them. The small minded Irish with few superstars have 6 between 3 clubs.
I don't think we are missing the big picture.

Interesting quote from

Fernandez Lobbe said that Toulon came of age in the Heineken Cup when they played Munster three seasons ago, with the home side coming out on top in the two games.

“It was the first time Toulon starting loving this Heineken Cup, because it was a great atmosphere and a great game.”

“Of course there’s going to be a lot of Munster people because maybe they’re the best travelling supporters. But the important thing is what happens on the pitch.”

No we all flogged our tickets because we were stuck at home washing the fake blood from our shirts

The bigger picture is that u can't hold back the tide. Growth in game is driven at club and grassroots levels.

Viz eng, Fra, SA.

Irfu and provinces have done well out of their HC subsidy. But now it's gone.

Days are numbered for top-down rugby. That is the big picture. ARU near bankrupt. NZRFU close to calling time on central contracts....irfu must be worried about the future.

Sine still at it huh, dig as much poo up and throw it at the english and hope some of it sticks! Those nasty PRL pantomime villains!

quinsforever wrote:The bigger picture is that u can't hold back the tide. Growth in game is driven at club and grassroots levels.

Viz eng, Fra, SA.

Irfu and provinces have done well out of their HC subsidy. But now it's gone.

Days are numbered for top-down rugby. That is the big picture. ARU near bankrupt. NZRFU close to calling time on central contracts....irfu must be worried about the future.

What HC Subsidy? Just because Irish teams have made more knock-out games than everyone else suggests that they have earned most of their money and in they have provided a heck of a lot more air time than the likes of Quins or Gloucester, which is what Sky & BT will be paying for.

Bearing in mind that Munster has played the most games in the history of the Heineken Cup (139 European games which can't be surpassed now as Toulouse is out of the comp.), I'd say they are the ones who earned every penny they got.

IRFU are always worried about the future, but hopefully we won't try and destroy professional rugby in other countries like the PRL so that they can try and compete with the LNR.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:The bigger picture is that u can't hold back the tide. Growth in game is driven at club and grassroots levels.

Viz eng, Fra, SA.

Irfu and provinces have done well out of their HC subsidy. But now it's gone.

Days are numbered for top-down rugby. That is the big picture. ARU near bankrupt. NZRFU close to calling time on central contracts....irfu must be worried about the future.

What HC Subsidy? Just because Irish teams have made more knock-out games than everyone else suggests that they have earned most of their money and in they have provided a heck of a lot more air time than the likes of Quins or Gloucester, which is what Sky & BT will be paying for.

Bearing in mind that Munster has played the most games in the history of the Heineken Cup (139 European games which can't be surpassed now as Toulouse is out of the comp.), I'd say they are the ones who earned every penny they got.

IRFU are always worried about the future, but hopefully we won't try and destroy professional rugby in other countries like the PRL so that they can try and compete with the LNR.

He clearly has now clue about rugby here. Schools rugby is massive here in Ireland and especially here in Leinster. there was nearly 10k at Ravenhill for the Ulster schools final. The provinces also have probably the biggest academies in Europe. Ireland are producing more players than ever before. Schools rugby is even shown on Setanta from time to time.

There is always some excuse as to why the provinces have performed well in the HC. It just simply can't be that we have great systems in place.

quinsforever wrote:The bigger picture is that u can't hold back the tide. Growth in game is driven at club and grassroots levels.

Viz eng, Fra, SA.

Irfu and provinces have done well out of their HC subsidy. But now it's gone.

Days are numbered for top-down rugby. That is the big picture. ARU near bankrupt. NZRFU close to calling time on central contracts....irfu must be worried about the future.

What subsidy ?? - Don't believe everything the English press tell you

Historically only 1 WC won by a club as opposed to Union based system

does anyone other than me think that munsters 139 appearances has something to do with the fact that they have always automatically qualified every year? small advantage over the french and english sides that have to have eyes on two competitions every year.

bully for you in Leinster. i am very happy that you find your game in rude health at grassroots level.

your so-called great systems have consistently failed to produce any meaningful success at international level so i would question how great they really are. yes you won the 6N this year, but honestly, had England not been playing Sco on a disgraceful Muddyfield, they would have stuck 40+ past them rather than 20 unanswered. So Irelands win, while great, is not a ringing endorsement of the provincial model. nor is their performance in any of the last 3 rugby world cups.

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:The bigger picture is that u can't hold back the tide. Growth in game is driven at club and grassroots levels.

Viz eng, Fra, SA.

Irfu and provinces have done well out of their HC subsidy. But now it's gone.

Days are numbered for top-down rugby. That is the big picture. ARU near bankrupt. NZRFU close to calling time on central contracts....irfu must be worried about the future.

What subsidy ?? - Don't believe everything the English press tell you

Historically only 1 WC won by a club as opposed to Union based system

100% of NH RWC wins and finalists (5 in total) in club-based systems.

Jackman was saying on IT Podcast that the money in French rugby is unreal. Not only have they their new tv deal, the FFR are giving them 2m per club as well. Interestingly, he thought the IRFU would be ok as we produce our own players who all want to play for their home province. He said England are feiced - they haven't a hope in competing with the French wallet.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:The bigger picture is that u can't hold back the tide. Growth in game is driven at club and grassroots levels.

Viz eng, Fra, SA.

Irfu and provinces have done well out of their HC subsidy. But now it's gone.

Days are numbered for top-down rugby. That is the big picture. ARU near bankrupt. NZRFU close to calling time on central contracts....irfu must be worried about the future.

What subsidy ?? - Don't believe everything the English press tell you

Historically only 1 WC won by a club as opposed to Union based system

100% of NH RWC wins and finalists (5 in total) in club-based systems.

'Quins have provided 68 games for airtime - about half of what Munster have provided over the years  

Yawn. As many English sides as Irish in the semis. And I bet sarries odds are a lot better than munsters to make it to the final.

Jackman is about as neutral as u are sin e. God u pick the people you quote well. Thornley, Neil Francis, jackman. You couldn't undermine your own points better if you tried.

quinsforever wrote:does anyone other than me think that munsters 139 appearances has something to do with the fact that they have always automatically qualified every year? small advantage over the french and english sides that have to have eyes on two competitions every year.

bully for you in Leinster. i am very happy that you find your game in rude health at grassroots level.

your so-called great systems have consistently failed to produce any meaningful success at international level so i would question how great they really are. yes you won the 6N this year, but honestly, had England not been playing Sco on a disgraceful Muddyfield, they would have stuck 40+ past them rather than 20 unanswered. So Irelands win, while great, is not a ringing endorsement of the provincial model. nor is their performance in any of the last 3 rugby world cups.

Our systems were different in the past though...The IRFU has really only got its act together recently as the provinces are now stacked with Irish players instead of NIQs. We also finally have a coach who can get the best out of the players. Kidney really wasted a great generation of players.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:The bigger picture is that u can't hold back the tide. Growth in game is driven at club and grassroots levels.

Viz eng, Fra, SA.

Irfu and provinces have done well out of their HC subsidy. But now it's gone.

Days are numbered for top-down rugby. That is the big picture. ARU near bankrupt. NZRFU close to calling time on central contracts....irfu must be worried about the future.

What subsidy ?? - Don't believe everything the English press tell you

Historically only 1 WC won by a club as opposed to Union based system

100% of NH RWC wins and finalists (5 in total) in club-based systems.

'Quins have provided 68 games for airtime - about half of what Munster have provided over the years  

Munster also provided half of the crowd for the quins-Munster QF at the stoop last year   

I don't expect quins to qualify for Europe every year.

Would love to see how that hat fits provincial fans. Ohmygod the whining will be deafening.

quinsforever wrote:does anyone other than me think that munsters 139 appearances has something to do with the fact that they have always automatically qualified every year? small advantage over the french and english sides that have to have eyes on two competitions every year.

Munster were not automatically qualified every year. Ireland had 3 spots with 4 teams and if going on the PRL's qualifying critieria (Top 6), they would have qualified every year anyway from the Rabo.

your so-called great systems have consistently failed to produce any meaningful success at international level so i would question how great they really are. yes you won the 6N this year, but honestly, had England not been playing Sco on a disgraceful Muddyfield, they would have stuck 40+ past them rather than 20 unanswered. So Irelands win, while great, is not a ringing endorsement of the provincial model. nor is their performance in any of the last 3 rugby world cups.

Remind me again - when was the last time England won a 6Ns Grand Slam?


T

quinsforever wrote:I don't expect quins to qualify for Europe every year.

Would love to see how that hat fits provincial fans. Ohmygod the whining will be deafening.

Ah, it will be much easier to qualify now that PRL have made it easier to qualify with the top 2 teams from each group making the knock-outs. Sadly, we won't see the likes of Connacht pulling off big wins down in Toulouse again.

Anyway, don't you think that since Munster have provided about double the airtime over the years, Munster should get double what Quins is getting ?   That would be fair.

Well Quins did bring us bloodgate which was like Eastenders on the rugby pitch. Having said that it seems that the new system is more nefarious than that was.

Such cr4p. Connacht are explicitly funded by irfu half the amount of the other 3 provinces. So do t give me the
Munster have to qualify every year.

As for 6n, notsomany slams for England, but the most consistent performance over the last 15 years of all nations. By quite some margin.

But honestly I don't care about English or Irish club or national team superiority within a European club tournament. I want to be entertained. And that does not mean watching excessively rested Celtic players goin hell for leather in the only tournament they compete in that means anything to the players themselves or selectors watching.

See the mike blair thread for independent view on that.

quinsforever wrote:Such cr4p. Connacht are explicitly funded by irfu half the amount of the other 3 provinces. So do t give me the
Munster have to qualify every year.

As for 6n, notsomany slams for England, but the most consistent performance over the last 15 years of all nations. By quite some margin.

But honestly I don't care about English or Irish club or national team superiority within a European club tournament. I want to be entertained. And that does not mean watching excessively rested Celtic players goin hell for leather in the only tournament they compete in that means anything to the players themselves or selectors watching.

See the mike blair thread for independent view on that.

  

Do the maths yourself. Not hard to find. Tally points since whenever u like and tell me who has the most consistent record.

quinsforever wrote:Such cr4p. Connacht are explicitly funded by irfu half the amount of the other 3 provinces. So do t give me the
Munster have to qualify every year.

As for 6n, notsomany slams for England, but the most consistent performance over the last 15 years of all nations. By quite some margin.

But honestly I don't care about English or Irish club or national team superiority within a European club tournament. I want to be entertained. And that does not mean watching excessively rested Celtic players goin hell for leather in the only tournament they compete in that means anything to the players themselves or selectors watching.

See the mike blair thread for independent view on that.

I think what Mike Blair's interview shows is why Edinburgh have been performing so bad recently. Glasgow, Ospreys and the provinces all care about the league and their results show this. Leinster's average attendance in the rabo has been over 20k this season. More than most teams around Europe.

You said... England were the most consistent team By quite some margin

The survey said...


Pld W D L PF PA PD T Pts Wins GS TC WS
England 75 51 1 23 2061 1157 + 904 214 103 4 1 3 0
France 75 50 2 23 1899 1324 + 575 184 102 5 3 N/A 1
Ireland 75 49 2 24 1833 1393 + 440 188 100 2 1 4 0

hmm seems a lot closer than first thought...

If only u could think about anything beyond Leinster.

U might understand why the rabo is in the vulnerable state it is.

Best win ratio. And significantly best net points difference. Over 15 yrs I would say that is quite some margin. And if u reduce the timescale the English relative performance looks better and better actually.

The Rabo has been very good this year and is getting down to some interesting playoffs.

Probably jealous at the support teams like Leinster have I guess. I think the punters get entertained interestingly enough.

Italy are the most consistent team, followed by Scotland. I think Italy have been either 5th or 6th for all but two years in the last 15 years. Similar for Scotland. That's pretty darn consistent.

quinsforever wrote:If only u could think about anything beyond Leinster.

U might understand why the rabo is in the vulnerable state it is.

Leinster are my team why would I speak for anyone elses?I don't what what kind of crowds etc. they are getting... Don't ignore the point I made.