The legendary trainers.

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 10:28 am

Not sure this has been done yet, so I thought it might be nice to have something new with which to kick off a new week.

Recent discussions concerning Rocky Marciano set me thinking about his trainer, the legendary Charlie Goldman, which precipitated a chain of events leading me to consider some of the greatest trainers who ever lived, and who helped to shape the sport we love. It occurred to me that it might be interesting to pick some of the greatest among them and see which of them everybody reckons to have been the best, and to that end I've chosen just eight of the most prominent and most influential, each of them a member of the Hall of Fame, for your deliberation :

Charlie Goldman

Considered by many to be the greatest trainer of the lot, Goldman had been a pro fighter who, allegedly, had been the veteran of over 300 fights. He retired in 1914, became a trainer and, under admittedly bizarre circumstances, produced his first world champion within a year in middleweight Al McCoy, who was also the first southpaw champion. Among the great champions Goldman trained were Lou Ambers, Marty Servo, Joey Archibald, Fritzie Zivic and Kid Gavilan, and while he would go on to work with Oscar Bonavena in a boxing career spanning six decades, his crowning glory was to turn Rocky Marciano into the heavyweight champion.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/goldman.html

Whitey Bimstein

Bimstein, a pro fighter with 70 fights to his name, formed a partnership with Ray Arcel in the mid twenties, ( and would later partner Freddie Brown, ) and at one time or another he was involved in the training of Dempsey, Tunney, Greb, Carpentier, Benny Leonard, Jack ' Kid ' Berg, Ambers, Barney Ross, Jimmy Braddock, Marciano, Rocky Graziano, Ingemar Johansson and George Chuvalo. According to his Wiki bio he, at one point during the '30s, was the trainer for every single reigning world champion.

His New York Times obituary read, simply, ' Second to champions. Second to none. '

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/bimstein.html

Ray Arcel

From Benny Leonard in the '20s to Roberto Duran and Larry Holmes in the '70s and '80s, Arcel saw them all and trained plenty, including Leonard, Ezzard Charles, Braddock, Ross, Tony Zale, Lou Brouillard, Freddie Steele, Jack ' Kid ' Berg, Frankie Genaro, Sixto Escobar, Duran, Holmes and four or five other champions.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/arcel.html

Jack Blackburn

This fine article from Cox's Corner does Blackburn far greater credit than I could :

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/blackburn.html

Cus D'Amato

An excerpt from the mini bio at the cyber boxing zone reads :

" This boxing genius shepherded the careers of light-heavyweight champion Jose Torres and heavyweight champs Floyd Patterson and Mike Tyson. He served as informal advisor to Muhammad Ali, Gerry Cooney, and countless others. D'Amato also developed several fabulous trainers: Teddy Atlas, Joey Fariello, Kevin Rooney. Cus D'Amato died in 1985 - just before his masterpiece, Mike Tyson, became the youngest man, at age 20, to win the heavyweight championship of the world. "

Criticisms have been levelled at D'Amato for having protected Patterson and for, possibly, having undermined his self confidence over the Liston issue but he, nonetheless, often figures in discussions concerning the legendary trainers and nobody, surely, would dispute his boxing nous.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/damato.html

Angelo Dundee

Sugar Ray Leonard, José Nápoles, George Foreman, Jimmy Ellis, Carmen Basilio, Luis Rodriguez, Willie Pastrano and a fella named Muhammad Ali are just a few of the great names with whom Dundee was associated. Some say that Dundee was not particularly influential, in the strictest boxing sense, in the careers of either Ali or Leonard but, as with D'Amato, his name frequently pops up in discussions concerning the great trainers and his legend is assured.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/dundeeangelo.html

Emanuel Steward

Steward hardly needs any introduction, but here are just some of the notable fighters whom he has either trained or been involved with in an advisory capacity : Dennis Andries, Wilfred Benítez, Julio Cesar Chavez, Miguel Cotto, Oscar De La Hoya, Naseem Hamed, Thomas Hearns, Evander Holyfield, Wladimir Klitschko, Lennox Lewis, Michael Moorer, Oliver McCall, Mike McCallum, Milton McCrory, Gerald McClellan, Jermaine Taylor and James Toney.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/steward.html

Nice interview with him, here :

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0403-di.html

Eddie Futch

Futch, again, requires no introduction, though it probably wouldn't hurt to remind ourselves that he was at the helm for, among others, Joe Frazier, Bob Foster, Mike McCallum, Alexis Arguello, Michael Spinks, Marlon Starling and Riddick Bowe.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/futch.html

Some of his own thoughts here :

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/futch.htm

Will be interested to see how the vote plays out and to read your responses.

Over to you.

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 10:35 am

So, so tough Windy could make a case for virtually any of them as you have listed some belters. However at the risk of sending Az into an apoplexy of rage have had to go with Goldman. Think we can and have debated Rocky's relative merits to death but for me it is is relative crudeness that is the true indicator of Goldman's greatness.

He did not try to make Rocky into something he wasn't. He did what a great trainer should do and worked with what he had and utilised Marcinao's strengths to get the absolute maximum out of what he had at his disposal. As the old cliche goes when life gives you lemons make lemonade, when t comes to Goldman few could have made finer lemonade than he did with the Rock.

by Daz Mon May 23, 2011 10:36 am

I can't decide Windy, I hold most of them in very high esteem and I havent heard of a couple of them in all honesty.

Based on that I have cast my vote on the ones that I know, but I am still torn over two of them.

Can I have another vote? Smile

by **88Chris05** Mon May 23, 2011 10:41 am

Jesus Windy, not exactly fair that we can only pick one, chap!

I tend to cast my vote with Arcel more often than not, but have a lot of moments where I'm caught between two or three other names as well.

D'Amato, looking back, was perhaps a little too set in his ways and over-reliant on a fighter being able to use the 'peek-a-boo' technique to warrant consideration for top spot, at least in my eyes. Wrote an article not long ago outlining why I don't think he's one of the very elite trainers, although it's a testament to him that he established himself so well while not doing business with the dreaded IBC, for which he deserves massive credit.

I'll plump for Arcel (who likewise, did what he could to cut the mob's influence on the sport) closely followed by Goldman and Blimstein. Seriously hard choice to make, mind you.

I think the list you've come up with is excellent, Windy. Just out of curiosity, though, was Yank Durham considered?

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 10:43 am

Good case for Goldman there, jeff, and I hadn't heard the ' lemonade ' adage, before.

Only one vote Daz, I'm afraid, but by all means toss into the ring for debate the names of the two others whom you are considering.

by manos de piedra Mon May 23, 2011 10:45 am

Difficult to say really.

From the outside it can be be tricky to determine what the trainers overall impact on a fighter is.

Would it has mattered if it was Dundee/Arcel/Futch/Steward etc training Ali for instance?

Going to have to sit on the fence for this one.

by Mind the windows Tino. Mon May 23, 2011 10:45 am

Windy, cracking article and I feel ashamed that my knowledge of legendary trainers is so poor. I know very little about Bimsteim and Goldman but will consider myself educated now and will read up on them.

With this in mind, I am going to have to apply my limited knowledge to those that I know a little about and go for Manny Steward. Real who's who of boxers that I grew up watching and enjoying and generally had the right gameplan for the right circumstance. I was hugely impressed by the way he ironed out Lennox Lewis's faults and enabled him to fufil his potential as a heavyweight. Same with Wlad to a lesser extent, he is obviously acutely aware of Wlad's limitations and weakness, but has helped him develop into a dominant champion, albeit in a weak era.

Obviously had a great career with the Hitman, and was really impressed with the way he plotted Holyfields victory in the second Bowe fight. Likewise, the way he inspired and trained McCall to slot that right hand straight down the pipe to KO Lennox.

Was it a deliberate ommission of Freddie Roach?

Also, what about Pepe Correa? Who can forget his advice before round 2 of Lewis v McCall - something along the lines of "forget everything I have taught you, just go out and knock this guy out". Great words Pepe!

Great thread.

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 10:46 am

Chris, there were a few other very worthy names I toyed with and, though I didn't specifically think of Durham, he would also be a worthy contender, as would many of the Philly trainers.

Paring them down to eight was tough and, while I wouldn't insist that these are the definitive choices, I figured that most would agree that they belong among the elite.

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 10:47 am

Thanks, Tino.

The attached links to the IBHOF mini bios might be a good place to start in reading up about Bimstein et al.

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 10:49 am

Would it has mattered if it was Dundee/Arcel/Futch/Steward etc training Ali for instance?
_____________________________________________________

Think that is why I plumped for Goldman, whilst I would never dismiss the influence of a trainer think given Ali or Leonard to work with most trainers would have success because the raw materials you are working with are so good you would have to be a blithering idiot to make a mess. However think in the case of Marciano this is not the case as all goldman had to work with was a young guy with a lot of strength, power and will. To create a great heavyweight from that is by no means a formality

by coxy0001 Mon May 23, 2011 10:51 am

No room for Adam Booth?! Wink

A side note - but the guy appears to have a serious boxing brain. Will never be a Cus Tomato in terms of technical aspects, but boy does he know how to negate his fighters oppo and make them look bad.

Angelo Dundee gets my vote, real tough one to call. Rewatched Foreman vs Moorer as it was naturally on the mind after BHops triumph... "you're behind baby"... brilliant.

by ONETWOFOREVER Mon May 23, 2011 10:56 am

Absolutley not coxy please dont be silly. He has 1 fighter of note in Haye who will NOT be an ATG. The best trainer ever is between Arcel, Goldman, Futch and Duindee

by Daz Mon May 23, 2011 10:58 am

I couldnt decide between Cus and Dundee Windy. I eventually went for Dundee, as like Chris said Cus was over reliant on the Peek a Boo style. Dundee seemed like a great tactician utilising different skillsets.

Actually I think i just convinced myself! Haha!

Dundee it is!

by Daz Mon May 23, 2011 10:59 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Absolutley not coxy please dont be silly. He has 1 fighter of note in Haye who will NOT be an ATG. The best trainer ever is between Arcel, Goldman, Futch and Duindee

I dont think he was being serious! laughing

by coxy0001 Mon May 23, 2011 11:01 am

ONETWO

Just saying he has a boxing brain, you can't deny that. And he's different to the above as he's manager and runs Hayemaker promotions to boot - isn't just a trainer.

Not being silly, he has 2 fighters of note as well. 2 times ABA champ and now British/Commonwealth champ. So stop being silly yourself sunshine.

I'm not going into it anymore, as i said it was a side note and if you feel Groves' transformation wasn't down to him then go for it. Just don't bother relpying if you feel like that and we'll do it on a different thread.

by captain carrantuohil Mon May 23, 2011 11:01 am

I've cast my vote for Arcel, though found it nearly impossible to pick between him and Futch. I'm amazed that at the time of writing, Futch has no votes - I regard him as ten times the trainer that Steward has been, for example.

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 11:02 am

captain carrantuohil wrote:I've cast my vote for Arcel, though found it nearly impossible to pick between him and Futch. I'm amazed that at the time of writing, Futch has no votes - I regard him as ten times the trainer that Steward has been, for example.

Surprised you are on today Captain, thought you would be spending your winnings, a Nostradamus like prediction from you over the weekend

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 11:05 am

rowley wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:I've cast my vote for Arcel, though found it nearly impossible to pick between him and Futch. I'm amazed that at the time of writing, Futch has no votes - I regard him as ten times the trainer that Steward has been, for example.

Surprised you are on today Captain, thought you would be spending your winnings, a Nostradamus like prediction from you over the weekend

I'll second that, captain.

The only detail you failed to predict would appear to have been the colour of socks worn by the chap sitting one place left of centre when the ring was viewed with Groves' corner being hard left of picture.

by **Fists of Fury** Mon May 23, 2011 11:06 am

rowley wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:I've cast my vote for Arcel, though found it nearly impossible to pick between him and Futch. I'm amazed that at the time of writing, Futch has no votes - I regard him as ten times the trainer that Steward has been, for example.

Surprised you are on today Captain, thought you would be spending your winnings, a Nostradamus like prediction from you over the weekend

It certainly was, I was busy spending my winnings yesterday, can only assume captain did the same!

by captain carrantuohil Mon May 23, 2011 11:06 am

It so happens, that we're off to the Cornish "Riviera" on Friday, Jeff, so I imagine that the winnings will get spanked there. As I said to Fists of Fury, re. that prediction, every dog has his day!

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 11:07 am

I actually won a couple of quid on it myself. Couple of mates said Groves would not go six rounds and as they were confident enough to back that I got a bit lucky. Is more a case of drunken good fortune than anything else, however when coupled to Birmingham's relegation did make for a nice weekend

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 11:10 am

rowley wrote:however when coupled to Birmingham's relegation did make for a nice weekend

You're all heart, jeff.

by **Fists of Fury** Mon May 23, 2011 11:11 am

rowley wrote:I actually won a couple of quid on it myself. Couple of mates said Groves would not go six rounds and as they were confident enough to back that I got a bit lucky. Is more a case of drunken good fortune than anything else, however when coupled to Birmingham's relegation did make for a nice weekend

Was rather satisying their relegation, wasn't it, and as you say, when added to a surprise win for the Villa boys, and an excellent win for St George, all in all it was a top weekend.

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 2:00 pm

Bumped, now that we have a few more logged in.

by Imperial Ghosty Mon May 23, 2011 5:10 pm

A tricky one but would have to go for Jack Blackburn primarily for what he did with Louis, an honourable mention to Archie Moore to who masterminded Foremans comeback.

Having just watched Hopkins fights against Pavlik and Pascal it had me thinking what a great trainer he could become, his post fight analysis of his fights is generally spot on and his ability to pick up on the smallest of things would be invaluable to either one.

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:12 pm

rowley wrote:So, so tough Windy could make a case for virtually any of them as you have listed some belters. However at the risk of sending Az into an apoplexy of rage have had to go with Goldman. Think we can and have debated Rocky's relative merits to death but for me it is is relative crudeness that is the true indicator of Goldman's greatness.

He did not try to make Rocky into something he wasn't. He did what a great trainer should do and worked with what he had and utilised Marcinao's strengths to get the absolute maximum out of what he had at his disposal. As the old cliche goes when life gives you lemons make lemonade, when t comes to Goldman few could have made finer lemonade than he did with the Rock.

I won the bet over the weekend so I will comment. But not yet!!! Very Happy

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:14 pm

I would dgo with Futch and Arcel. They both had fighters with various styles and he taught them well. Manny Steward's fighters all fight in a similar manner and Dundee was lucky in that his legacy was enhanced by Ali and laterly Leonard. Those two probably would have been greats even if Rocky's trainer trained them.

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 5:15 pm

azania wrote:
rowley wrote:So, so tough Windy could make a case for virtually any of them as you have listed some belters. However at the risk of sending Az into an apoplexy of rage have had to go with Goldman. Think we can and have debated Rocky's relative merits to death but for me it is is relative crudeness that is the true indicator of Goldman's greatness.

He did not try to make Rocky into something he wasn't. He did what a great trainer should do and worked with what he had and utilised Marcinao's strengths to get the absolute maximum out of what he had at his disposal. As the old cliche goes when life gives you lemons make lemonade, when t comes to Goldman few could have made finer lemonade than he did with the Rock.

I won the bet over the weekend so I will comment. But not yet!!!

Good. Better to wait till you have something sensible to add.

See you in a year or two.

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:16 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:So, so tough Windy could make a case for virtually any of them as you have listed some belters. However at the risk of sending Az into an apoplexy of rage have had to go with Goldman. Think we can and have debated Rocky's relative merits to death but for me it is is relative crudeness that is the true indicator of Goldman's greatness.

He did not try to make Rocky into something he wasn't. He did what a great trainer should do and worked with what he had and utilised Marcinao's strengths to get the absolute maximum out of what he had at his disposal. As the old cliche goes when life gives you lemons make lemonade, when t comes to Goldman few could have made finer lemonade than he did with the Rock.

I won the bet over the weekend so I will comment. But not yet!!!

Good. Better to wait till you have something sensible to add.

See you in a year or two.

As soon as that. Cheers mate thumbsup

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 5:17 pm

You're welcome, mate. Only kidding. Whistle

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:21 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:You're welcome, mate. Only kidding.

I bet

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 5:24 pm

Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:25 pm

rowley wrote:Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

Yep I agree. Credit must also go to Valuev's trainer.

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 5:28 pm

azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

Yep I agree. Credit must also go to Valuev's trainer.

Think his matchmaker deserves a damned sight more credit. Getting that lump to 40 odd fights unbeaten puts him in a class of his own

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 5:28 pm

azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

Yep I agree. Credit must also go to Valuev's trainer.

Thought that was modern nutrition and creosote ?

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:29 pm

rowley wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

Yep I agree. Credit must also go to Valuev's trainer.

Think his matchmaker deserves a damned sight more credit. Getting that lump to 40 odd fights unbeaten puts him in a class of his own

More excuses for Rocky.

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:29 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

Yep I agree. Credit must also go to Valuev's trainer.

Thought that was modern nutrition and creosote ?

Given the size of him, do you think he heeded it?

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 5:31 pm

azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

Yep I agree. Credit must also go to Valuev's trainer.

Thought that was modern nutrition and creosote ?

Given the size of him, do you think he heeded it?

He was a welter until he discovered radical thingummies and creosote. Could have fought Manny if he'd only been old enough.

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 5:32 pm

Rocky fought the best of his era, Valuev didn't. Pretty simple difference.

by **88Chris05** Mon May 23, 2011 5:33 pm

azania wrote:
rowley wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

Yep I agree. Credit must also go to Valuev's trainer.

Think his matchmaker deserves a damned sight more credit. Getting that lump to 40 odd fights unbeaten puts him in a class of his own

More excuses for Rocky.

Not sure how Rowley pointing out that Valuev conned the title away (shocking decision) from a relatively poor champion in Ruiz, on the back of careful match-making and purely being linked to Don King constitutes an "excuse for Rocky", but oh well, guess I'm missing the point.

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 5:33 pm

rowley wrote:Rocky fought the best of his era, Valuev didn't. Pretty simple difference.

If this goes off, I know who to blame, GEOFREY ROLEY.

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 5:34 pm

The cage could well be beckoning Windy

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 5:35 pm

rowley wrote:The cage could well be beckoning Windy

Think yourself lucky that Adad isn't here.

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:36 pm

rowley wrote:Rocky fought the best of his era, Valuev didn't. Pretty simple difference.

Exceptionally weak era(error). But that is not the point. The point is credit must go to his trainer for getting a man of such limited talent to become a world belt holder.

Your argument mate. And please dont sivert the thread because you are keen to hear my wonderful arguments as to why Rocky was possibly the top 5 worse HW champion in history.

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:37 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Az surely given how little you rate Marciano you would have to concede that to get a guy of such limited skill set to world title level is no mean feat?

Yep I agree. Credit must also go to Valuev's trainer.

Think his matchmaker deserves a damned sight more credit. Getting that lump to 40 odd fights unbeaten puts him in a class of his own

More excuses for Rocky.

Not sure how Rowley pointing out that Valuev conned the title away (shocking decision) from a relatively poor champion in Ruiz, on the back of careful match-making and purely being linked to Don King constitutes an "excuse for Rocky", but oh well, guess I'm missing the point.

This is about the trainers in taking limited fighters to the top.

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 5:37 pm

azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Rocky fought the best of his era, Valuev didn't. Pretty simple difference.

Exceptionally weak era(error). But that is not the point. The point is credit must go to his trainer for getting a man of such limited talent to become a world belt holder.

Your argument mate. And please dont sivert the thread because you are keen to hear my wonderful arguments as to why Rocky was possibly the top 5 worse HW champion in history.

I look forward to it with a similar level of anticipation that precedes a D4 thread explaining why Manny has the nicest haircut in boxing history

by Imperial Ghosty Mon May 23, 2011 5:38 pm

Or how your possibly in the top 5 for worst ever 606 posters?

by azania Mon May 23, 2011 5:39 pm

rowley wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Rocky fought the best of his era, Valuev didn't. Pretty simple difference.

Exceptionally weak era(error). But that is not the point. The point is credit must go to his trainer for getting a man of such limited talent to become a world belt holder.

Your argument mate. And please dont sivert the thread because you are keen to hear my wonderful arguments as to why Rocky was possibly the top 5 worse HW champion in history.

I look forward to it with a similar level of anticipation that precedes a D4 thread explaining why Manny has the nicest haircut in boxing history

I know you're a secret Manny/D4 fanbot (and a lemonade drinker).

by Rowley Mon May 23, 2011 5:40 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Or how your possibly in the top 5 for worst ever 606 posters?

Cheers Ghosty, have worked hard to get there, is something of an empty victory though because am only really there by default because Ralphy stopped posting

by **HumanWindmill** Mon May 23, 2011 5:41 pm

rowley wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Or how your possibly in the top 5 for worst ever 606 posters?

Cheers Ghosty, have worked hard to get there, is something of an empty victory though because am only really there by default because Ralphy stopped posting

I believe he meant Azda, jeff.

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The legendary trainers - who gets your vote ?