The legendary trainers.

First topic message reminder :

Not sure this has been done yet, so I thought it might be nice to have something new with which to kick off a new week.

Recent discussions concerning Rocky Marciano set me thinking about his trainer, the legendary Charlie Goldman, which precipitated a chain of events leading me to consider some of the greatest trainers who ever lived, and who helped to shape the sport we love. It occurred to me that it might be interesting to pick some of the greatest among them and see which of them everybody reckons to have been the best, and to that end I've chosen just eight of the most prominent and most influential, each of them a member of the Hall of Fame, for your deliberation :


Charlie Goldman

Considered by many to be the greatest trainer of the lot, Goldman had been a pro fighter who, allegedly, had been the veteran of over 300 fights. He retired in 1914, became a trainer and, under admittedly bizarre circumstances, produced his first world champion within a year in middleweight Al McCoy, who was also the first southpaw champion. Among the great champions Goldman trained were Lou Ambers, Marty Servo, Joey Archibald, Fritzie Zivic and Kid Gavilan, and while he would go on to work with Oscar Bonavena in a boxing career spanning six decades, his crowning glory was to turn Rocky Marciano into the heavyweight champion.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/goldman.html



Whitey Bimstein

Bimstein, a pro fighter with 70 fights to his name, formed a partnership with Ray Arcel in the mid twenties, ( and would later partner Freddie Brown, ) and at one time or another he was involved in the training of Dempsey, Tunney, Greb, Carpentier, Benny Leonard, Jack ' Kid ' Berg, Ambers, Barney Ross, Jimmy Braddock, Marciano, Rocky Graziano, Ingemar Johansson and George Chuvalo. According to his Wiki bio he, at one point during the '30s, was the trainer for every single reigning world champion.

His New York Times obituary read, simply, ' Second to champions. Second to none. '

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/bimstein.html



Ray Arcel

From Benny Leonard in the '20s to Roberto Duran and Larry Holmes in the '70s and '80s, Arcel saw them all and trained plenty, including Leonard, Ezzard Charles, Braddock, Ross, Tony Zale, Lou Brouillard, Freddie Steele, Jack ' Kid ' Berg, Frankie Genaro, Sixto Escobar, Duran, Holmes and four or five other champions.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/arcel.html



Jack Blackburn

This fine article from Cox's Corner does Blackburn far greater credit than I could :

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/blackburn.html



Cus D'Amato

An excerpt from the mini bio at the cyber boxing zone reads :

" This boxing genius shepherded the careers of light-heavyweight champion Jose Torres and heavyweight champs Floyd Patterson and Mike Tyson. He served as informal advisor to Muhammad Ali, Gerry Cooney, and countless others. D'Amato also developed several fabulous trainers: Teddy Atlas, Joey Fariello, Kevin Rooney. Cus D'Amato died in 1985 - just before his masterpiece, Mike Tyson, became the youngest man, at age 20, to win the heavyweight championship of the world. "

Criticisms have been levelled at D'Amato for having protected Patterson and for, possibly, having undermined his self confidence over the Liston issue but he, nonetheless, often figures in discussions concerning the legendary trainers and nobody, surely, would dispute his boxing nous.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/damato.html


Angelo Dundee


Sugar Ray Leonard, José Nápoles, George Foreman, Jimmy Ellis, Carmen Basilio, Luis Rodriguez, Willie Pastrano and a fella named Muhammad Ali are just a few of the great names with whom Dundee was associated. Some say that Dundee was not particularly influential, in the strictest boxing sense, in the careers of either Ali or Leonard but, as with D'Amato, his name frequently pops up in discussions concerning the great trainers and his legend is assured.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/dundeeangelo.html


Emanuel Steward

Steward hardly needs any introduction, but here are just some of the notable fighters whom he has either trained or been involved with in an advisory capacity : Dennis Andries, Wilfred Benítez, Julio Cesar Chavez, Miguel Cotto, Oscar De La Hoya, Naseem Hamed, Thomas Hearns, Evander Holyfield, Wladimir Klitschko, Lennox Lewis, Michael Moorer, Oliver McCall, Mike McCallum, Milton McCrory, Gerald McClellan, Jermaine Taylor and James Toney.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/steward.html

Nice interview with him, here :

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0403-di.html




Eddie Futch

Futch, again, requires no introduction, though it probably wouldn't hurt to remind ourselves that he was at the helm for, among others, Joe Frazier, Bob Foster, Mike McCallum, Alexis Arguello, Michael Spinks, Marlon Starling and Riddick Bowe.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/nonparticipant/futch.html

Some of his own thoughts here :

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/futch.htm




Will be interested to see how the vote plays out and to read your responses.

Over to you.

You think too highly of yourself Jeff, you were such a stalwart down at the bottom it caused Ralphy to quit, he could never replicate you

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You think too highly of yourself Jeff, you were such a stalwart down at the bottom it caused Ralphy to quit, he could never replicate you

If I thought for a split second I was even slightly responsible for Ralphy's departure I would know my time on earth had not been wasted.

Normally, round about now, I'd be thinking :

" This thread has gone off topic. Hopefully a mod will step in. Who are the boxing mods ? Hmm. Chap called Windmill - no good asking that senile old duffer. Here's one - oxring. No good - he's not logged in. Eureka ! azania. He's a mod, he's logged in and ................

he took the bloody thread off topic ! "

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Or how your possibly in the top 5 for worst ever 606 posters?

Oh dear Ghosty, something obviously tongue in cheek you personalise things.

Should I mention top 5 posters with a sense of humour bypass?

Clearly you don't have a sense humour Az

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Clearly you don't have a sense humour Az

If anyone is interested in the initial question then my answer is Eddy Futch
The decision he made to pull Frazier out agains Ali justifies that and then some
Dundee let Ali go against Holmes...best trainer ever ?No way... weak and selfish
Trainers have a duty to their fighters..Futch had it... Dundee didnt

skidd1 wrote:If anyone is interested in the initial question then my answer is Eddy Futch
The decision he made to pull Frazier out agains Ali justifies that and then some
Dundee let Ali go against Holmes...best trainer ever ?No way... weak and selfish
Trainers have a duty to their fighters..Futch had it... Dundee didnt

I agree with Futch. I went for Futch and Arcell. Dundee is over-rated imo. SRL and Ali made him and as I said, both would have been great if they had any trainer.

Manny Steward also falls into the Dundee selfishness category imo.

I was torn between Arcel and Dundee. I went for Arcel for no other reason than he trained Duran.

licence_007 wrote:I was torn between Arcel and Dundee. I went for Arcel for no other reason than he trained Duran.

Arcel and Futch trained fighters with different styles. Dundee was primarily a jab and move trainer. Ditto Steward.

Props should be given to the new generation such as Roach, Mayweathers and Buddy McGirt.

Still fairly new to boxing as a sport, I'm slowly learning. Didn't know much about Futch so couldn't really pick him. Steward I know of, but don't rate as highly as Arcel. Think Dundee being a possibility was mainly in my head due to Ali and Leonard.

licence_007 wrote:Still fairly new to boxing as a sport, I'm slowly learning. Didn't know much about Futch so couldn't really pick him. Steward I know of, but don't rate as highly as Arcel. Think Dundee being a possibility was mainly in my head due to Ali and Leonard.

No worries. Many here claim to know it all yet unsurprisingly they do! Others are charlatans. Stick woth us here mate.

Dundee undoubtedly got some of the most talented fighters and they would have been great regardless.He could manage them however.That doesnt make him a great trainer for me
I like Manny Steward but many Kronk fighters had obvious flaws(at the very top level).That might be the fighters tho rather than the trainers and I see him like Dundee

Where is Freddie Roach?

azania wrote:

licence_007 wrote:Still fairly new to boxing as a sport, I'm slowly learning. Didn't know much about Futch so couldn't really pick him. Steward I know of, but don't rate as highly as Arcel. Think Dundee being a possibility was mainly in my head due to Ali and Leonard.

No worries. Many here claim to know it all yet unsurprisingly they do! Others are charlatans. Stick woth us here mate.

Definitely will. Some of the articles usually inspire me to go googling some fighter that I didn't know of, then its an hour on youtube watching a fight or two!

D4thincarnation wrote:Where is Freddie Roach?

I mentioned him.

D4thincarnation wrote:Where is Freddie Roach?

He is Eddy Futch's protege and that is a compliment as you know

Roach has trained 27 boxing world champions and MMA champions.

GSP said he learned more in a 2 weeks training about boxing than he had done in his previous 20 something years.

How many did Futch train?

D4thincarnation wrote:Roach has trained 27 boxing world champions and MMA champions.

GSP said he learned more in a 2 weeks training about boxing than he had done in his previous 20 something years.

How many did Futch train?

And GSP is still useless when standing. He firte is getting the other guy down and dry humping for 5 rounds. Howard Davis is a better MMA boxing coach.

I'll add that Futch trained mainly when there was one champ per division not 4 per division.

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Roach has trained 27 boxing world champions and MMA champions.

GSP said he learned more in a 2 weeks training about boxing than he had done in his previous 20 something years.

How many did Futch train?

And GSP is still useless when standing. He firte is getting the other guy down and dry humping for 5 rounds. Howard Davis is a better MMA boxing coach.

I'll add that Futch trained mainly when there was one champ per division not 4 per division.

Roach 27-21 Futch.

How many time was Futch trainer fo the year?

D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Roach has trained 27 boxing world champions and MMA champions.

GSP said he learned more in a 2 weeks training about boxing than he had done in his previous 20 something years.

How many did Futch train?

And GSP is still useless when standing. He firte is getting the other guy down and dry humping for 5 rounds. Howard Davis is a better MMA boxing coach.

I'll add that Futch trained mainly when there was one champ per division not 4 per division.

Roach 27-21 Futch.

How many time was Futch trainer fo the year?

HOw many unified world champs has Roach trained?

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Roach has trained 27 boxing world champions and MMA champions.

GSP said he learned more in a 2 weeks training about boxing than he had done in his previous 20 something years.

How many did Futch train?

And GSP is still useless when standing. He firte is getting the other guy down and dry humping for 5 rounds. Howard Davis is a better MMA boxing coach.

I'll add that Futch trained mainly when there was one champ per division not 4 per division.

Roach 27-21 Futch.

How many time was Futch trainer fo the year?

HOw many unified world champs has Roach trained?

More than Futch.

Can number of champions really be used as an indicator given the different eras of boxing?

D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Roach has trained 27 boxing world champions and MMA champions.

GSP said he learned more in a 2 weeks training about boxing than he had done in his previous 20 something years.

How many did Futch train?

And GSP is still useless when standing. He firte is getting the other guy down and dry humping for 5 rounds. Howard Davis is a better MMA boxing coach.

I'll add that Futch trained mainly when there was one champ per division not 4 per division.

Roach 27-21 Futch.

How many time was Futch trainer fo the year?

HOw many unified world champs has Roach trained?

More than Futch.

In other words, no he hasnt.

licence_007 wrote:Can number of champions really be used as an indicator given the different eras of boxing?

What about trainer of the year awards?

D4thincarnation wrote:

licence_007 wrote:Can number of champions really be used as an indicator given the different eras of boxing?

What about trainer of the year awards?

Again, not relevant. Success cannot be measured by numbers.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

licence_007 wrote:Can number of champions really be used as an indicator given the different eras of boxing?

What about trainer of the year awards?

Again, not relevant. Success cannot be measured by numbers.

So how do you measure success?

Two idiots ruin a decent question.....fill in the banks
No.... Azania and D4 its you..blatant wind up merchants..

skidd1 wrote:Two idiots ruin a decent question.....fill in the banks
No.... Azania and D4 its you..blatant wind up merchants..

Because I think Roach should be on the poll?

IMO Roach is a legendary trainer.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

licence_007 wrote:Can number of champions really be used as an indicator given the different eras of boxing?

What about trainer of the year awards?

Again, not relevant. Success cannot be measured by numbers.

So how do you measure success?

Is Floyd a greater fighter than SRR, afterall he has won more titles in more weight divisions....

The fact Roach has won more trainer of the year awards (I am assuming that is the point you are making) than futch is irrelevant. It does not take into account the trainers of today, the quality of fighters and where they are located etc... I thought you would be able to figure stuff like this out.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

licence_007 wrote:Can number of champions really be used as an indicator given the different eras of boxing?

What about trainer of the year awards?

Again, not relevant. Success cannot be measured by numbers.

So how do you measure success?

Is Floyd a greater fighter than SRR, afterall he has won more titles in more weight divisions....

The fact Roach has won more trainer of the year awards (I am assuming that is the point you are making) than futch is irrelevant. It does not take into account the trainers of today, the quality of fighters and where they are located etc... I thought you would be able to figure stuff like this out.

Answer the question.

D4thincarnation wrote:

skidd1 wrote:Two idiots ruin a decent question.....fill in the banks
No.... Azania and D4 its you..blatant wind up merchants..

Because I think Roach should be on the poll?

IMO Roach is a legendary trainer.

He could well be, but anything can be proven (or disproven for that matter) with stats. Floyd has a 100% winning records, is he better than Manny in your opinion. Afterall, the numbers dont lie.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

licence_007 wrote:Can number of champions really be used as an indicator given the different eras of boxing?

What about trainer of the year awards?

Again, not relevant. Success cannot be measured by numbers.

So how do you measure success?

Is Floyd a greater fighter than SRR, afterall he has won more titles in more weight divisions....

The fact Roach has won more trainer of the year awards (I am assuming that is the point you are making) than futch is irrelevant. It does not take into account the trainers of today, the quality of fighters and where they are located etc... I thought you would be able to figure stuff like this out.

Answer the question.

Read between the lines.

I'm off to bed.

It not as if Windy has just decided to put retired traiiners in his poll. He has Steward but no Roach.

I just don't understand it.

D4thincarnation wrote:It not as if Windy has just decided to put retired traiiners in his poll. He has Steward but no Roach.

I just don't understand it.

I know you won't shut up until everyone bows down to you and says "Yes D4, Roach is the greatest trainer of all time, he must be because he trains the greatest fighter of all time Manny Pacquiao", but here's an idea for you. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, Windy (who selected this excellent list) doesn't consider Roach to be as great a trainer as Arcel, Futch, D'Amato, Dundee, Blackburn, Goldman, Bimstein or Steward? I know it's a difficult concept for you to grasp, but please give it a go all the same.

I would have liked to see Yank Durham considered, but as Windy said, trimming so many great trainers (and make no mistake, Roach isn't the only name who's unlucky to miss out) down to a list of eight is difficult.

D4thincarnation wrote:It not as if Windy has just decided to put retired traiiners in his poll. He has Steward but no Roach.

I just don't understand it.

No you dont but thats not new!

D4thincarnation wrote:

licence_007 wrote:Can number of champions really be used as an indicator given the different eras of boxing?

What about trainer of the year awards?

The Eddie Futch Award?

In Roachs own words Futch is the greatest trainer of them all and have to assume he would have won more trainer of the year awards had it existed in his hey day but you just got well and truly owned by Scott so don't expect a reply.

Fascinating subject to consider and incredibly difficult to say.

How does one begin to measure? Number or champions, quality of fighters, longetivity, individual fighters. So much to consider.

Arcels longetivity with working with top class fighters is astounding. His partnership with Whitey Bimstein was probably unrivaled in terms of success and quality fighters produced and his connection to the sport throughout the decades is hard to match.

However I believe that perhaps the single biggest success story and acheivement would be what Jack Blackburn acheived with Joe Louis. He really developed Louis from just a bag of raw materials into what I believe is the greatest ever heavyweight. The transformation of Loius from essentially just a puncher to a fantastically well rounded fighter who was defensively very astute and a lethal finisher is a remarkeable acheivement.

Some have cited Goldmans work with Marciano to steer him to the heavyweight title as righfully a fantastic acheivement. But for me, there is now comparison with what Blackburn di with Louis. Marciano was developed to fight to his strengths and to hone in on what he did best. Louis though was almost created from scratch and transformed completely.

However I think the consistency and acheivements of Arcel over half a century would be sufficient for me to acknowledge him as the greatest of the trainers.

Great subject.

D4thincarnation wrote:It not as if Windy has just decided to put retired traiiners in his poll. He has Steward but no Roach.

I just don't understand it.

Well, we don't understand half of your threads, either, but we do endeavour to pay you the courtesy of staying on topic. Your turn to reciprocate. For the record, the men I listed trained a stream of HOFers and, in general, fighters of consistently higher quality.