Why doesn't Vitali get enough credit for his achievement?

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A Boxer technically undefeated if u consider the two matches he lost due to injuries not made by opponent and in both matches he was leading hands down on all referee cards. One of the biggest knockout ratios, this guy last all 12 rounds against any heavyweight pitted against if needed, one of the best chins I have seen in the history.

Unlike Wlad Vitali is more aggressor yet plans his punches in a much calculated way, he doesn't hug and thug like his brother Wlad does, Lewis certainly knew he had remote chance of a win on a rematch with Vitali at that time and hence timely saved his legacy, however Lewis knows very well he always has his chance against Wlad if he could get one of his right upper punch even if happened to be by accident.

Vitali in my view should easily make top 10 boxers of all time and could close in top 5, yes I would agree Boxers like Ali, Tyson, Robinson, Foreman, Frazier were there and could be above Vitali's accomplishments, but having seen Vitali fight and box I would certainly give him benefit of doubt to be along this great group.  

Watch Baer and Carnera fights and thats how the Klitschko fights would pan out, Louis was clever enough to dedicate some time to the body of the larger men and finally chopped them down, Vitali doesnt have the skills to deal with Louis and Wlad would implode soon as Joe was in punching distance.

Cheers Rodders

Vitali is both better and tougher than the pair so wouldn't pay too much attention to those fights. Hard to call because we don't know how the smaller heavies do against the big men who do have some ability.

World of difference between Carnera and Vitali..

Baer had already decked him eleven times as you well know Rod

Carnera is nothing like Vitali. Only size is similar. Next people will be comparing David Haye to Muhammad Ali or Audley to Lennox Lewis   

Only ever seen Vitali knocked out by a barefoot spinning kick at the hands of a kickboxing world champion, in fact its the only time his ever been recorded to have to have kissed the turf. Expert kicks hurt a lot more than gloved punches. I'm a huge Vitali fan (who's name isnt Az) so maybe Im biased, but predicting a KO... is rather brave...-

But while we're comparing cross-generational fighters, is it fair to claim Wlad would have had prime/peak/ultimate/omnipotent/Beast-mode/Titan-mode/God-mode Mike for breakfast, seeing as he beat the other Mike Tyson, Mormeck?

Odd thing with Louis, some peoples number one, most folks number two but he can barely beat any other half decent heavyweight apparently.

kingraf wrote:But while we're comparing cross-generational fighters, is it fair to claim Wlad would have had prime/peak/ultimate/omnipotent/Beast-mode/Titan-mode/God-mode Mike for breakfast, seeing as he beat the other Mike Tyson, Mormeck?

Think Tysons all wrong for Wlad to be honest. His chin would be tested. He wouldn't be able to grab and spoil Tyson for a full 10 or 12 rounds. Unlike David Haye, Tyson would go looking for that chin and have a feeling he would find it with his speed and punch angles. I know a good Jab is key to beating Mike but you will also need a good chin and use effective aggression. Definitely fancy a young Tyson to do a job on Wlad.

Vitali is a much tougher fight for Tyson because of his toughness and body movement/reflexes.

AdamT wrote:

kingraf wrote:But while we're comparing cross-generational fighters, is it fair to claim Wlad would have had prime/peak/ultimate/omnipotent/Beast-mode/Titan-mode/God-mode Mike for breakfast, seeing as he beat the other Mike Tyson, Mormeck?

Think Tysons all wrong for Wlad to be honest. His chin would be tested. He wouldn't be able to grab and spoil Tyson for a full 10  or 12 rounds. Unlike David Haye, Tyson would go looking for that chin and have a feeling he would find it with his speed and punch angles. I know a good Jab is key to beating Mike but you will also need a good chin and use effective aggression. Definitely fancy a young Tyson to do a job on Wlad.

Vitali is a much tougher fight for Tyson because of his toughness and body movement/reflexes.

I agree mate, it was typed in jest. I like Wlad, think he's done well for himself, and no matter what people say, has been a credit to boxing, as the alternate reality has Arreola, Adamek, Povetkin, Fury-types swapping the belts swapping the belts, making a bigger mockery of the sport than two brothers holding the titles simultaneously ever will. That said, tough to give him much of a chance against the truly elite greats, isnt it? His safety-first tactic works well enough to probably keep him a serious challenger in any era in history, but I do feel he gets switched off sharpish against most of the guys in and around his rating, and some below.

Rowley wrote:Odd thing with Louis, some peoples number one, most folks number two but he can barely beat any other half decent heavyweight apparently.

David Haye gets tipped to beat him a man whose best win at heavyweight is John Ruiz.

Cheers

Rodders

Wlads a great fighter no matter what people say. Styles make fights. Wlad would have a better chance of beating a pure boxer like Ali or Holmes, rather than fighting a fast power puncher like Tyson

Holmes Wlad would be an interesting fight. Think Ali-Wlad is a rather inspid fight, if I look at it, Ali never quite looked the part against guys who didnt engage, and Wlad never quite went at it against guys who posed a danger.

AdamT wrote:Wlads a great fighter no matter what people say. Styles make fights. Wlad would have a better chance of beating a pure boxer like Ali or Holmes, rather than fighting a fast power puncher like Tyson

He wouldnt beat any of them, a man who panics to death when a Samuel Peter or Lamon Brewster gets close isnt going to cut it with the higher echelons of the great heavyweights.

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:

AdamT wrote:Wlads a great fighter no matter what people say. Styles make fights. Wlad would have a better chance of beating a pure boxer like Ali or Holmes, rather than fighting a fast power puncher like Tyson

He wouldnt beat any of them, a man who panics to death when a Samuel Peter or Lamon Brewster gets close isnt going to cut it with the higher echelons of the great heavyweights.

Cheers Rodders

Of course he wouldn't. Just think he would make it a better match with a pure boxer. It was just a silly point to say that styles make fights and I believe that Tyson would be an absolute nightmare for Wlad.

I agree Adam regards Tyson couldn't see Wlad making it past round 3.

Cheers Rodders

Marciano beating Vitali is something I find pretty hard to square with, truthfully. Too small, too light, too easy to hit and not quick enough. Appreciate that Louis and Frazier are small compared to Vitali, mind you, but they also had quicker hands and could get inside without taking shots better than Rocky could.

Think Frazier, at his very best, would be a slight favourite to take a decision against Vitali based on styles. Vitali pulls back from shots at the waist a lot but against a fighter who could weave his way inside like Frazier was capable of doing and who could punch so quickly and sharply in close this would spell trouble. Don't think Vitali would do well against a guy who wouldn't let him dictate the range the way he's used to doing. No doubt that Vitali could take the slow-starting Frazier out early now and then, but don't forget that Frazier came seriously close to stopping Ali a couple of times in the FOC. Vitali's got a top class chin but Frazier could still test it.

Bit trickier with Louis. Fast-handed, fantastic power etc, but a bit more straight up than Frazier and probably more inclinced to struggle with Vitali's height and reach as a result. Can't catch Vitali off guard by closing the distance as quickly, either. But Vitali's never really been hit with more than one, maybe two big shots at a time in his career, and Louis would almost surely change that at some stage. Not sure which Baer fight Rodney was talking about, but the Max one is a great example of how good a combination hitter he was. Quick fighters with good legs (Conn, Walcott) tended to give Louis fits but Vitali doesn't really have speed in his locker....However, he hits hard enough to put Louis in dire straits.

I find it a tough one to call. Louis beat big guys but none of them were in Vitali's class. Bit of a pick 'em in my opinion but interested to hear what others have to say on it. Will give a small edge to Louis just to prevent Rodders from giving me a dressing down!

88Chris05 wrote:Marciano beating Vitali is something I find pretty hard to square with, truthfully. Too small, too light, too easy to hit and not quick enough. Appreciate that Louis and Frazier are small compared to Vitali, mind you, but they also had quicker hands and could get inside without taking shots better than Rocky could.

Think Frazier, at his very best, would be a slight favourite to take a decision against Vitali based on styles. Vitali pulls back from shots at the waist a lot but against a fighter who could weave his way inside like Frazier was capable of doing and who could punch so quickly and sharply in close this would spell trouble. Don't think Vitali would do well against a guy who wouldn't let him dictate the range the way he's used to doing. No doubt that Vitali could take the slow-starting Frazier out early now and then, but don't forget that Frazier came seriously close to stopping Ali a couple of times in the FOC. Vitali's got a top class chin but Frazier could still test it.

Bit trickier with Louis. Fast-handed, fantastic power etc, but a bit more straight up than Frazier and probably more inclinced to struggle with Vitali's height and reach as a result. Can't catch Vitali off guard by closing the distance as quickly, either. But Vitali's never really been hit with more than one, maybe two big shots at a time in his career, and Louis would almost surely change that at some stage. Not sure which Baer fight Rodney was talking about, but the Max one is a great example of how good a combination hitter he was. Quick fighters with good legs (Conn, Walcott) tended to give Louis fits but Vitali doesn't really have speed in his locker....However, he hits hard enough to put Louis in dire straits.

I find it a tough one to call. Louis beat big guys but none of them were in Vitali's class. Bit of a pick 'em in my opinion but interested to hear what others have to say on it. Will give a small edge to Louis just to prevent Rodders from giving me a dressing down!

You were almost crossed off my Christmas card list mate, don't like the small edge mind you.

Cheers Rodders

It's all subjective guys. Anyway I think we can all agree that no heavyweight would have an easy nights work with Vitali. He is good/awkward enough to at least provide a stern test for anyone.

It is all subjective. And in subjective matters, the Klitschkos never win.

kingraf wrote:It is all subjective. And in subjective matters, the Klitschkos never win.

I have a lot of respect for both brothers. They maybe aren't always in the most entertaining fights but they are good heavyweights. Maybe the era is weak but it is also down to how dominant the brothers are. A serious question for any of you gents. Has Vitali lost more than a handful of rounds in his entire career? Granted his opposition isn't the greatest, the fact that he is so dominant shows how great a fighter he really is.

AdamT wrote:

kingraf wrote:It is all subjective. And in subjective matters, the Klitschkos never win.

I have a lot of respect for both brothers. They maybe aren't always in the most entertaining fights but they are good heavyweights. Maybe the era is weak but it is also down to how dominant the brothers are. A serious question for any of you gents. Has Vitali lost more than a handful of rounds in his entire career? Granted his opposition isn't the greatest, the fact that he is so dominant shows how great a fighter he really is.

Tbh, Im really just a Vitali fan. I like Wlad, but he isnt much fun.

I also lean towards Vitali. He is a harder man and I think he would give anyone a tough fight. How many champions come back and win a world title easily on their first fight back after a long layoff?

Question is, where'd you rank the brothers relatively??

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question is, where'd you rank the brothers relatively??

I would rank both between 12 and 15. Vitali is the better fighter, tho Wlad has the better resume. Hard to seperate them.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question is, where'd you rank the brothers relatively??

I tend to rank Wlad higher. I think Vitali knocks him ten times out ten, a hundred out a hundred, and 999 times out a thousand, but I do believe that a fighter's body of work is of more importance when ranking them, than hypothetical match ups. Wlad's been champ for nigh on a decade, holds more gold than Mr. T. Only issue for me isnt that he has lost (happens, especially at HW), but more that he lost to, and went life and death with people his brother had for breakfast.

kingraf wrote:

AdamT wrote:

kingraf wrote:It is all subjective. And in subjective matters, the Klitschkos never win.

I have a lot of respect for both brothers. They maybe aren't always in the most entertaining fights but they are good heavyweights. Maybe the era is weak but it is also down to how dominant the brothers are. A serious question for any of you gents. Has Vitali lost more than a handful of rounds in his entire career? Granted his opposition isn't the greatest, the fact that he is so dominant shows how great a fighter he really is.

Tbh, Im really just a Vitali fan. I like Wlad, but he isnt much fun.

Agreed and more or less the same sentiment, I am huge Vitali fan but can't say the same thing about Wlad, I was utterly disappointed with Wlad on his matchup against Haye, Haye vs Vitali would have been a much more interesting fight.

Wlad is more of a smart boxer with time and not a real fighter, when ever he engaged in fighting he lost his stamina and ended up being pummeled by the opponent.

Vitali would have done very good in MMA as well which I don't see Wlad doing it, Vitali would have dominated MMA with his punch power and sharp kicking ability.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Louis ??....

Frazier had the best chance......bobbing and weaving.. big left hook..

Frazier Ko 2....

Louis a blown up cruiser...Who is too stand up..

You think Frazier KO's Vitali in two rounds? I see Frazier struggling with Vitali just like he did with Foreman. Vitali may not (?) have the punching power of Foreman but I'd gamble that at 250lbs, Vitali has just as much if not more strength than a 215lb Foreman had. If Frazier couldn't bully Foreman around, I don't see him doing it to Vitali. Vitali by points or late round TKO.

kingraf wrote:It is all subjective. And in subjective matters, the Klitschkos never win.

I know. It's amazing how two guys who've been HW champs for 10 years have no chance against even slightly talented midgets from 20+ years ago.

Atila wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Louis ??....

Frazier had the best chance......bobbing and weaving.. big left hook..

Frazier Ko 2....

Louis a blown up cruiser...Who is too stand up..

You think Frazier KO's Vitali in two rounds? I see Frazier struggling with Vitali just like he did with Foreman. Vitali may not (?) have the punching power of Foreman but I'd gamble that at 250lbs, Vitali has just as much if not more strength than a 215lb Foreman had. If Frazier couldn't bully Foreman around, I don't see him doing it to Vitali. Vitali by points or late round TKO.

It's a known fact that to beat the Klitschko's all you have to do is "bob and weave."

Just shut up........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Just shut up........

good come back

Klitschko to be KOed by the alcoholic fumes off Frazier. His bob and weave style was actually down to consuming a couple of bottles of whiskey before his fight and staggering all over the place swinging wildly like a p1sshead.

catchweight wrote:Klitschko to be KOed by the alcoholic fumes off Frazier. His bob and weave style was actually down to consuming a couple of bottles of whiskey before his fight and staggering all over the place swinging wildly like a p1sshead.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not seeing as Frazier was a long term alcoholic who died from Liver failure.

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

Atila wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Louis ??....

Frazier had the best chance......bobbing and weaving.. big left hook..

Frazier Ko 2....

Louis a blown up cruiser...Who is too stand up..

You think Frazier KO's Vitali in two rounds? I see Frazier struggling with Vitali just like he did with Foreman. Vitali may not (?) have the punching power of Foreman but I'd gamble that at 250lbs, Vitali has just as much if not more strength than a 215lb Foreman had. If Frazier couldn't bully Foreman around, I don't see him doing it to Vitali. Vitali by points or late round TKO.

It's a known fact that to beat the Klitschko's all you have to do is "bob and weave."

You must be joking right?   

Your quote might not even apply against Wlad most times let alone Vitali.

By the time you bob and weave Dr. Iron fist would have landed enough punch to knock you out in Round 4-5.

DirectView wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

Atila wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Louis ??....

Frazier had the best chance......bobbing and weaving.. big left hook..

Frazier Ko 2....

Louis a blown up cruiser...Who is too stand up..

You think Frazier KO's Vitali in two rounds? I see Frazier struggling with Vitali just like he did with Foreman. Vitali may not (?) have the punching power of Foreman but I'd gamble that at 250lbs, Vitali has just as much if not more strength than a 215lb Foreman had. If Frazier couldn't bully Foreman around, I don't see him doing it to Vitali. Vitali by points or late round TKO.

It's a known fact that to beat the Klitschko's all you have to do is "bob and weave."

You must be joking right?   

Your quote might not even apply against Wlad most times let alone Vitali.

By the time you bob and weave Dr. Iron fist would have landed enough punch to knock you out in Round 4-5.

By using the 'bob and weave' I'd have knocked dr Ironfist out by the 3rd.

Vitali doesn't offer any of the problems that Foreman presents and that's because he doesn't hit anywhere near as hard. Foremans strength was a problem because he was getting hammered to the floor straight after being shoved away.

Frazier beats both for the simple reason he's better than them and the difference in quality more than makes up for the difference in size especially with Wlad.

We've had this discussion before. No one ever agrees. Let's move on. Ken Norton vs David Haye?

Lewis' motivation had waned after besting tyson. He was at the end of his career and achieved everything he could. Undisputed. Reversed all losses. He was inactive for a year after beating tyson, and was preparing to fight a no mark. He was out of shape. In steps Vitali. I dont know if vitali had been in camp for another fight though? Either way he's always in supreme condition. He will have been extremely motivated... He was fighting the No1. He did extremely well....as well as, or better than, any fighter could have performed against that version of lewis.

Vitali would have been a test for any version of Lewis. I remember the Mavrovic fight. Lewis would have won though.

3fingers wrote:Lewis' motivation had waned after besting tyson. He was at the end of his career and achieved everything he could. Undisputed. Reversed all losses. He was inactive for a year after beating tyson, and was preparing to fight a no mark. He was out of shape. In steps Vitali. I dont know if vitali had been in camp for another fight though? Either way he's always in supreme condition. He will have been extremely motivated... He was fighting the No1. He did extremely well....as well as, or better than, any fighter could have performed against that version of lewis.

Vitali would have been a test for any version of Lewis. I remember the Mavrovic fight. Lewis would have won though.

In the same regards if we put in, he only bested a tomato Tyson and not a prime Tyson, this should not add anything to Lewis legacy at all.

Lewis' mindset in beating Tyson had nothing to do with legacy, he won and was the last one standing of the great 90's heavyweights. He was going to be able to get up for another fight fully after that, it's human nature.

Not sure even the biggest Lewis fan could say that he achieved everything he could. He lost to two average HW contenders and missed out on fighting all the other top HW's of the time at their peak. For such a talented HW it really was a career with few truely memorable nights.

He is not undefeated as Lewis bust his eye open. It wasn't a freak injury. Quality fighter who lacked any credible opposition and lost the one big fight he had. Sad, but true.

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Not sure even the biggest Lewis fan could say that he achieved everything he could. He lost to two average HW contenders and missed out on fighting all the other top HW's of the time at their peak. For such a talented HW it really was a career with few truely memorable nights.

Exactly, Rehman knocking him out so easy really spoiled any credibility he had for his career.

Seanusarrilius wrote:He is not undefeated as Lewis bust his eye open. It wasn't a freak injury. Quality fighter who lacked any credible opposition and lost the one big fight he had. Sad, but true.

I would say very unlucky to lose that one big fight.   

DirectView wrote:
Exactly, Rehman knocking him out so easy really spoiled any credibility he had for his career.

You might not like him but get real. Any credibility for one punch?

DirectView wrote:

Seanusarrilius wrote:He is not undefeated as Lewis bust his eye open. It wasn't a freak injury. Quality fighter who lacked any credible opposition and lost the one big fight he had. Sad, but true.

I would say very unlucky to lose that one big fight.   

So Lewis loses all credibility becase Rahman connected with one punch which ended the fight, but Vitali gets a pass for getting caught by one punch which also led to the fight being ended?

#twistedlogic

Seanusarrilius wrote:He is not undefeated as Lewis bust his eye open. It wasn't a freak injury. Quality fighter who lacked any credible opposition and lost the one big fight he had. Sad, but true.

Yeah because Lewis was aiming to catch his eye with his thumb, thats what Manny taught him. Not a freak injury, but give Lewis a 100 tries, and I doubt he replicates the punch that created the cut. The quality of opposition is a valid argument, but it isnt Vitali's fault. If Lewis this generation had come to the fore after Lewis-McCall, it would obviously hinder his overall all time ranking, but it certainly wouldnt affect how he would fare in fantasy fights.

Rahman was given a chance to replicate that hail mary and look what happened??

I also think the 'thumb' argument is spurious, thought I'd watched slow mo's showing it was a clear punch so all above board.

To be honest it looks like thumb to me

Tbh, that just shows that it wasn't a full blown punch with the 'knuckle' of the glove. Glancy blow, yes, but it was still a punch thrown with intention and not like he tried to use his actual thumb to scrape open a cut.