Groves: Audley-type delusion?

"I totally dominated the first fight and I felt like I was in control of the second fight. That's down to people's opinions and interpretations, but no one thought I was on the verge of getting stopped.

"It's just one of those punches. It's a shame it happened now - I've spent my whole career where this could've happened and hasn't, and it's happened to me at the worst possible time."

Sounds to me like he is trying to spin this as some kind of lucky punch. In control of the fight? It was even at best. Truth is that Froch boxed a smart fight this time around, and improved from their first encounter. Groves needs to acknowledge that before he moves on.

Thoughts?

While Froch isa good pressure fighter and has stopped a few peopleon the way...generally he aint a one punch knockout kinda boxer. Groves needs to realise that his chin is pretty poor. The Anderson fight showed that. He needs to to work on this or before he makes a comeback. Personally I pick DeGale to stop him if they have a rematch

Getting knocked out by a big puncher means you have a bad chin? He took enough punishment over the last two fights to suggest he has got a decent set of whiskers, not a granite chin but certainly not poor either.

I wouldn't say it is poor, it was a humdinger of a punch, but not the greatest either. I think there will always be a fag paper between Groves and Degale.

He did not dominate the first fight, he dominated the first 6 rounds ...  and was stopped in the 9th.

In this fight it was a much closer afair that Froch was shading up until the KO.

I felt in rnd 7 Groves had started to give Froch problems and I was thinking, ok is Groves going to end the fight like he started the other one, or is he going to end up getting tired again and allow Froch to close the show again. While it was a KO and he was boxing relatively well around the time, I think ultimately he was getting tired again and having to force the fight a bit more, which lead to him leaving him self open to that bomb.

He is still a very good boxer and will more than likely win a world title at some stage being only 26, as he has the speed and power to trouble anyone. I just think the way he boxes makes it hard for him to keep up with the pace of 12 rounds when up against people who make him work.

Be interesting where he goes from here.. Will he try and jump back into some big fights or will be start slow again..

Groves VS Degale 2 would be good, but Degale is well placed for a title shot, so not the best option for him at the moment..

hampo171 wrote:Getting knocked out by a big puncher means you have a bad chin? He took enough punishment over the last two fights to suggest he has got a decent set of whiskers, not a granite chin but certainly not poor either.

He actually has quite a good defense but can you point out a time where he has taken a clean powerful shot and taken it well? I cant, he as allways looked hurt. So I have not seen enough to tell me he has a good chin. But also not enough to say its glass. I think its certainly not one of his assets put it that way. I think he has huge heart, no doubt there.

tunes666 wrote:

hampo171 wrote:Getting knocked out by a big puncher means you have a bad chin? He took enough punishment over the last two fights to suggest he has got a decent set of whiskers, not a granite chin but certainly not poor either.

He actually has quite a good defense but can you point out a time where he has taken a clean powerful shot and taken it well?  I cant, he as allways looked hurt.  So I have not seen enough to tell me he has a good chin. But also not enough to say its glass. I think its certainly not one of his assets put it that way.  I think he has huge heart, no doubt there.

Take a look at his face in the first fight, he took numerous shots and came through them and didn't go down, if is chin is as bad as Steffan is trying to make out he'd have been flattened. People are now saying Degale would stop him as well, if he didn't do it in the first fight he won't do it now.

I would say that if you think Groves has Audley Harrisons level of delusion then its probably you who has a touch of the Audlies.

Groves has an element of fragility about him for me. The punch that knocked him out was a humdinger but pretty much anytime he gets caught flush he seems to go a little ragged. As other people closer to him have said he appears to have good powers of recovery though. But I dont think he takes a good shot. I wouldnt call him chinny.

catchweight wrote:I would say that if you think Groves has Audley Harrisons level of delusion then its probably you who has a touch of the Audlies.

Groves has an element of fragility about him for me. The punch that knocked him out was a humdinger but pretty much anytime he gets caught flush he seems to go a little ragged. As other people closer to him have said he appears to have good powers of recovery though. But I dont think he takes a good shot. I wouldnt call him chinny.

The reason I say it is that he is basically saying that but for that punch he would have won. And if my aunt was a man she'd be my uncle.

Come on are you seriously comparing that excerpt of Groves there to Audley "Im 40 and just got beat by a taxi driver but will rule the heavyweights" Harrison?

I think Groves is liberal with the truth regards controlling the fight but I think there is a fair argument he could have been edging it based on how one scored the first two very even rounds.

I think, what he is saying, is that he got wiped out by a punch from nowhere. "Thats boxing" as they say. The punch came at a time when groves was probably having his best spell in the fight. To be honest I dont think anyone other than Froch saw that punch coming when it did. It wasnt like Groves was being dominated and worn down. He looked in better nick in the 8th round of this fight than he did in the 8th of the first fight. I think this is what Groves is getting at. I dont think he alluded at all to it being a lucky punch. It was a peach of a shot. In fact I think Groves might have even said it was a great shot and that he made a mistake himself allowing it to connect.

catchweight wrote:Come on are you seriously comparing that excerpt of Groves there to Audley "Im 40 and just got beat by a taxi driver but will rule the heavyweights" Harrison?

I think Groves is liberal with the truth regards controlling the fight but I think there is a fair argument he could have been edging it based on how one scored the first two very even rounds.

I think, what he is saying, is that he got wiped out by a punch from nowhere. "Thats boxing" as they say. The punch came at a time when groves was probably having his best spell in the fight. To be honest I dont think anyone other than Froch saw that punch coming when it did. It wasnt like Groves was being dominated and worn down. He looked in better nick in the 8th round of this fight than he did in the 8th of the first fight. I think this is what Groves is getting at. I dont think he alluded at all to it being a lucky punch. It was a peach of a shot. In fact I think Groves might have even said it was a great shot and that he made a mistake himself allowing it to connect.

He didn't make a mistake, that's just a neutralization tactic. He was beaten by the better man. I'm convinced Froch would beat Groves 10 times out of 10.
It doesn't matter what happened before the KO, even if Froch had lost every previous round (which he didn't), a KO is as legitimate a way of winning a fight as it is on points.

Groves also said he was in full control, it was one-way traffic and there was no concussion. Audley-esque if you ask me.

I'm with catchweight on this, personally I had groves slightly ahead, but looking in the ascendency at the time, so I can see his point entirely.

However, there's no doubt he's part convincing himself... That's what fighters do. If he allows himself to believe he's just not quite good enough, where does that leave his confidence going forward. I think most fighters have a slightly delusional element to them. Carl froch thinks he's an international superstar... And is on record as saying some fighters are just tough and others are super talented like him.

milkyboy wrote:I'm with catchweight on this, personally I had groves slightly ahead, but looking in the ascendency at the time, so I can see his point entirely.

However, there's no doubt he's part convincing himself... That's what fighters do. If he allows himself to believe he's just not quite good enough, where does that leave his confidence going forward. I think most fighters have a slightly delusional element to them. Carl froch thinks he's an international superstar... And is on record as saying some fighters are just tough and others are super talented like him.

I had Froch ahead slightly. I guess we'll have to disagree on that. There is taking positives, and there is lying to yourself, he is doing the latter.

Apparently Carl Froch has asked his long time girlfriend Rachel to marry him according to SKY SPORTS.....

A microphone overheard the current champion say...

"Rachel I'd like to ask you to marry me..I AM A 4-TIME WORLD CHAMPION WITH 13 CONSECUTIVE TITLE FIGHTS AND BONAFIDE GREAT" !!

I also just heard him say in the Sky interview that he "won the first fight". Seems that blow has affected his memory too.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Apparently Carl Froch has asked his long time girlfriend Rachel to marry him according to SKY SPORTS.....

A microphone overheard the current champion say...

"Rachel I'd like to ask you to marry me..I AM A 4-TIME WORLD CHAMPION WITH 13 CONSECUTIVE TITLE FIGHTS AND BONAFIDE GREAT" !!

Ha-ha Well it is possible it isn't his looks she is into...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Apparently Carl Froch has asked his long time girlfriend Rachel to marry him according to SKY SPORTS.....

A microphone overheard the current champion say...

"Rachel I'd like to ask you to marry me..I AM A 4-TIME WORLD CHAMPION WITH 13 CONSECUTIVE TITLE FIGHTS AND BONAFIDE GREAT" !!

And she said. 'I know carl, but u 'm with you for your good looks and personality.'

I thought Groves was a little deluded after first fight, to say that he had won and was robbed and not to even recognise he had 3 rounds to complete and was fading. But I thought that was just him hyping his chances for second fight, which were high. But now, to hear him say it's just one big shot, when to me, he was clearly fading again, might be a bit delusional. Like David Price, he has chin and stamina issues. Has to work on both or he will get starched again in future. Froch really didn't land all that many clean punches and Groves was fading out a bit before the equalizer came

Degale is the big winner..............They'll be a vacant belt available soon because let's face it ...Froch rightly will want to end his career in Vegas.......Coupled with the fact that Groves will have aged a little and will have mental battle scars..

Degale beats Groves for me now..

I wondered after the first fight who was indeed the better fighter but Froch proved that he at his worst (in the first fight) was still good enough to beat Groves at his best.

milkyboy wrote:I'm with catchweight on this, personally I had groves slightly ahead, but looking in the ascendency at the time, so I can see his point entirely.

However, there's no doubt he's part convincing himself... That's what fighters do. If he allows himself to believe he's just not quite good enough, where does that leave his confidence going forward. I think most fighters have a slightly delusional element to them. Carl froch thinks he's an international superstar... And is on record as saying some fighters are just tough and others are super talented like him.

Froch haters really do try their best. How can you say he has claimed he is an international super star when in his latest press conference when someone called him as such, he corrected them while laughing saying"national Star" but not so sure about "international star" ... Seems it does not really matter what he says..

SugarRayBray wrote:

milkyboy wrote:I'm with catchweight on this, personally I had groves slightly ahead, but looking in the ascendency at the time, so I can see his point entirely.

However, there's no doubt he's part convincing himself... That's what fighters do. If he allows himself to believe he's just not quite good enough, where does that leave his confidence going forward. I think most fighters have a slightly delusional element to them. Carl froch thinks he's an international superstar... And is on record as saying some fighters are just tough and others are super talented like him.

I had Froch ahead slightly. I guess we'll have to disagree on that. There is taking positives, and there is lying to yourself, he is doing the latter.

Wide split in the cards on this one... One of those fights. My point was, there is some merit in what he says but its part trying to convince himself. Most fighters think they lost because of injury/prep errors. Froch had a list of excuses as long as his arm when he lost to ward. And he erased the Kessler loss from his memory when he won the second!

Groves is simply saying that to keep his confidence up, like Audley. But, to put him in the same league as Audley is a bit much. Audley was totally outclassed by anybody even close to decent. Groves wasn't outclassed.

His claims weren't to ridiculous either, as the punch stats show:

Punches thrown: 349 Froch 314 Groves
Punches landed: 96 Froch 126 Groves

Groves hasn't the best punch resistant but he is far from "chinny". It was a great punch and remember, he got up and beat Anderson. Its like saying Froch is chinny just because Groves put him down in the first fight.

I actually thought Groves tactics in the first fight were better. Dominate the middle of the ring so you can get more power into your punches etc., especially the over hand right, which Froch just couldn't avoid.

But, it did look like Groves was starting to execute that plan in the second half, then the KO happened. If Froch hadn't landed that uncharacteristically heavy shot it would have made for a very interesting second half.

Seanusarrilius wrote:I thought Groves was a little deluded after first fight, to say that he had won and was robbed and not to even recognise he had 3 rounds to complete and was fading. But I thought that was just him hyping his chances for second fight, which were high. But now, to hear him say it's just one big shot, when to me, he was clearly fading again, might be a bit delusional. Like David Price, he has chin and stamina issues. Has to work on both or he will get starched again in future. Froch really didn't land all that many clean punches and Groves was fading out a bit before the equalizer came

The 7th and 8th were Groves best rounds of the fight up until the KO. He wasnt clearly fading at all. It was actually Froch started to look more ragged when he found the KO punch. Even Jim "Ive just bet my house on Froch" Watt was forced to concede that Groves was started to look the more comfortable.

tunes666 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:I'm with catchweight on this, personally I had groves slightly ahead, but looking in the ascendency at the time, so I can see his point entirely.

However, there's no doubt he's part convincing himself... That's what fighters do. If he allows himself to believe he's just not quite good enough, where does that leave his confidence going forward. I think most fighters have a slightly delusional element to them. Carl froch thinks he's an international superstar... And is on record as saying some fighters are just tough and others are super talented like him.

Froch haters really do try their best. How can you say he has claimed he is an international super star when in his latest press conference when someone called him as such, he corrected them while laughing saying"national Star" but not so sure about "international star" ... Seems it does not really matter what he says..

Yeh right tunes, coming from the beacon of objectivity on all things froch. Why was the question asked? Because froch had said it before. He was ridiculed for it, so now he's backing down from it.

He will be back to international superstar if he beats Chavez in Vegas though, dont worry.

I don't know why everyone is obsessing over what happened prior to the knockout, it really doesn't matter. He lost in the most conclusive fashion possible. For what it is worth, I think Groves only had minimal success this time around. Despite having a decent last two rounds, he looked tired to me.

People are talking about what happened prior to the knockout because its relevant to the quote regarding Groves.

Although obviously the intention of the thread is to simply bash Groves so probably best to ignore everything esle about the fight and lets all say together:

"Groves got KTFO"

LOL

[quote="catchweight"]People are talking about what happened prior to the knockout because its relevant to the quote regarding Groves.

Although obviously the intention of the thread is to simply bash Groves so probably best to ignore everything esle about the fight and lets all say together:

"Groves got KTFO"

LOL[/quote

That wasn't the intention at all. I just think he needs to be pulled up on certain things he said. He is a good fighter, but he needs to be honest with himself - as all fighters do. And, yes, I include Froch in that and his excuses regarding the Ward loss etc.

Also, Groves made bold predictions about what he was going to do. I just think he should give Froch credit not only for the win, but how he was able to change (something Groves insisted he couldn't do).

You have compared Groves to Audley Harrison for pete sake on the basis of a pretty innocuos statement above as boxing goes.You will be a busy man if you think the above level of statement needs to be called up and compared to Audley Harrison. You could have filled a library by now of stuff Froch has come up with us under the heading of delusion or not being honest with himself.

The fight was pretty close up until the knockout and the knockout came at a point when Groves was actually boxing better. Groves has obviously been generous to himself saying he felt in control of the fight (whilst qualifying the statement by explaining it was open to interpretation). And I dont see any indication that he says alludes the punch was lucky. A close fight that was ended when Froch hit Groves full force with a howitzer. I think the gist of what Groves was saying was that he felt comfortable in there and thought he was winning the fight up until he got sparked out. Obviously Froch fans will feel Froch was having the better of the fight but its a million miles from the crap Audley Harrison comes out with.

Also from Groves post fight:

“I’m obviously gutted. I felt I was boxing well but I got caught with a shot and that’s boxing. Fair play to Carl Froch because he got the job done and he was the better man on the night. I’m sure I’ll have a long and successful career ahead of me. Thanks to everyone for putting this fight together and I think the event surpassed everyone’s expectations. I plan to be world champion and I’m sure with the help of these two guys (trainer Paddy Fitzpatrick and promoter Kalle Sauerland) I will be. I got complacent tonight and let myself down.”

"It is boxing, the fights are hyped. I don't like or dislike any of my opponents. I'd love tocome again. I felt I was ahead on the scorecards until that point and I'll be pushing hard to get my world title shot and if Carl is still boxing maybe that will be against him.
"Yes (it's a learning experience). I'm young enough. I will learn and improve. I made a silly mistake. I left my chin open. All the imperfections need to be corrected. We'll come back stronger. It's back to the drawing board. We've got no excuses. Tonight is all about Carl, it's his night now."

catchweight wrote:You have compared Groves to Audley Harrison for pete sake on the basis of a pretty innocuos statement above as boxing goes.You will be a busy man if you think the above level of statement needs to be called up and compared to Audley Harrison. You could have filled a library by now of stuff Froch has come up with us under the heading of delusion or not being honest with himself.

The fight was pretty close up until the knockout and the knockout came at a point when Groves was actually boxing better. Groves has obviously been generous to himself saying he felt in control of the fight (whilst qualifying the statement by explaining it was open to interpretation). And I dont see any indication that he says alludes the punch was lucky. A close fight that was ended when Froch hit Groves full force with a howitzer. I think the gist of what Groves was saying was that he felt comfortable in there and thought he was winning the fight up until he got sparked out. Obviously Froch fans will feel Froch was having the better of the fight but its a million miles from the crap Audley Harrison comes out with.

I am reading between the lines and I think he is kidding to himself. He said he was in full control of last night's fight, and that he won the first fight.
The reality is he got stopped in both, rendered unconscious momentarily in the return. Sorry, but it is coming over a bit deluded in my eyes.

Also, if it had been Froch that was knocked out, would anyone have really cared how he had boxed until that point?

The only deluded one here is you Sugar, both put their heart and soul into both fights so let's give them both a bit of credit here instead of doing the usual of belittling anyone who loses.

"The only deluded one here is you Sugar, both put their heart and soul into both fights so let's give them both a bit of credit here instead of doing the usual of belittling anyone who loses."

Look, Groves is a good fighter and fought briliiantly in the first fight, but he needs to face facts, as do you.

How am I deluded?

The facts are this, were it not for a poor stoppage in the first and a humdinger of a right out of nowhere in the second he could have won both fights.

Drivel. Why can you not also say that about all fights in history? He won, but if he hadn't the other bloke would have.

Also, Harrier, are you Groves?

That is all Groves has said, were it not for that right hand he might have won and a controversial stoppage is quite an important part of a fight.

SugarRayBray wrote:Also, Harrier, are you Groves?

No i'm the biggest Froch fanboy on this site.

But it is a bit of a pointless argument. Kevin Kelley could gave beaten Naz, Herol Graham could have beaten Jackson. I could go on. If I had ovaries I'd be a woman etc.

The big difference is you've decided to pick two of the big punchers in history where there was always a chance of it ending in a split second. Lets be honest Naz was starting to beat Kelley up anyway dropping him at will as for Graham, we all talk about what might have been had that punch not landed.

As I watching yesterday I wasn't thinking about the possibility of it ending at any point, I assumed like many Froch was going to grind him down bit by bit, not in a million years did I see that right hand coming.

Me neither, but it makes no difference. He lined it up and executed perfectly.

What part of what George has said is deluded then?

Before last night Froch hadn't ended a single title fight with one punch that's a fact, what is also a fact is that opinion is very split on the scoring of the fight and it certainly looked like Groves was in the ascendancy.

What matters is the judges' scores at the time, not ours. By focusing on the lack of one-punch finishes you are implying the winning punch was lucky, as was Groves. Froch was much improved, Groves wasn't as good. He'd had a couple of decent rounds, so what?

Deluded comments include "I was in full control of the fight", and "I won the first fight".

It wasn't lucky but it was unexpected, why are you struggling to grasp that concept?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It wasn't lucky but it was unexpected, why are you struggling to grasp that concept?

So it was unexpected, does that invalidate it? Does that mean Froch isn't the better man (which he is)?

I would have won, had I not lost!

kingraf wrote:I would have won, had I not lost!

Precisely!