The "All-in" Junior world cup thread

[Taylorman]

First topic message reminder :

With 6 games on today didnt feel like jumping around the various u20 posts for each side...

On now is Scotland vs SA- Scots ahead after 16 mins 5-0, now SA 7-5 after 18.

Wales are leading Fiji 14-5 after scoring a try after 7 seconds! An average kick of to the left was left to bounce by the Fijians and Wales came through at full pace catching the ball after the bounce and scored in the corner. Other than the ball bouncing I don't think you can get a quicker try.

Aus thrashed Argie 36-17.

[DaveM]

I think this is the best group of young players we've ever produced. And I'm confident they will be bettered a couple of times over the next 5 years. The academies are doing fantastic job, as are the AP clubs in giving the players the academies produce game time. This is an incredibly exciting time for English rugby. The senior side is young and full of talent, and may mature into the best side in the world. But feeding in players with these skills should only improve the senior side further. I think there are around 15 players in this squad who can go onto the highest level.

[LeinsterFan4life]

England has always been dominant at this level and lucky for us it has never transfered to the senior game.

Ireland were missing at least 5-6 first team players so to reach the semis really was some achievement. I'm sure that a good few of these lads will go on to play fir their provinces.

The dominance hasn't but the players are starting to filter though.

Ever since the year with Ben Youngs it's been a conveyor belt of talent going straight into the AP then into the full side.

Over the last few years we've seen Marler, Brookes, Thomas, Launchbury, Lawes, Vuinipola x 2, Farrell, Tuilagi, Wade, Yarde, Burns, Ford, Nowell, May, Strettle, Kvesic and more come into the full set up and most making an impact. It's a shame the England football team can't mirror what the rugby is doing.

One thing is for sure, this tournament is the best thing to happen to underage rugby. It really is a great stepping stone for the players and the tournament gets more popular each year (great crowds in France last year!)

[DaveM]

Rob Andrew basking in a little glory:

England age group improvement

[Sgt_Pooly]

Good point Cumbrian.

Not trying to have a dig at the Irish boys, but surely you'd prefer money was invested on youth instead of the big bucks some of the provinces spend on "project players".

I can't imagine Aki, Payne etc were cheap.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Totally agree Leinster, it's a fantastic competition.

[quinsforever]

am watching the sky highlights of the semi-final games now. the skill on display ball in hand from england is actually breathtaking first hand. personal favourite so far is england number 1 danny hobbs-awoyemi who, after scoring a try, receives the ball in open play from an interception with his own winger outside him who calls for the prop to put in a grubber to the corner...which he proceeds to do...perfectly! sexton couldnt have done better...and the kiwi commentator says that if billie burns goes off at 10 they could move the prop into the position just fine. classic.

[lostinwales]

Kind of annoyed with the BBC that the only coverage I can see of the JWC is an article about Wales losing. I wonder if there will be any mention of England even if they win.

[quinsforever]

although i am very unimpressed with all the hairgel at 9-15 in white.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Good point Cumbrian.

Not trying to have a dig at the Irish boys, but surely you'd prefer money was invested on youth instead of the big bucks some of the provinces spend on "project players".

I can't imagine Aki, Payne etc were cheap.

Since when are we not investing in the youth?!?!?!...(the provinces have some of biggest academies in Europe) I think Bringing in SH talent is necessary for squad depth and competing against the French but Leinster have regularly fielded all Irish first XVs.

Irish players in general develope a little later but we always see players make the step up from u20 level to Provincial and this year should be no different. This team was missing 5-6 front line players (Including two of the captains SOB and Leavy) so to make the semi's was a great achievement imo.

[quinsforever]

the worry for irelands provincial setup presumably has to be how to get top level game time for their up and coming age group players when the incumbents occupy 90% of the starting slots across the 4 provinces?

if ireland does produce more top age-grade players it wouldnt surprise me to see many of them head straight to AP or top Championship sidesif they get the chance if it gets them gametime

[LeinsterFan4life]

the worry for irelands provincial setup presumably has to be how to get top level game time for their up and coming age group players when the incumbents occupy 90% of the starting slots across the 4 provinces?

if ireland does produce more top age-grade players it wouldnt surprise me to see many of them head straight to AP or top Championship sidesif they get the chance if it gets them gametime

It already is happening. The likes of James Hart was picked up straight out of youth rugby by Grenoble. Peter Lydon picked up by Stade Francis, etc...We are already seeing players that are being missed out by the academies getting picked up by top teams.

Players have been leaving for teams in the Championsip and Pro D2 for a while now.

[quinsforever]

i actually think thats very healthy for irish senior rugby if the juniors are prepared to move to get top flight game time. will mean there is a nice pyramid of talent from which to choose over time.

[quinsforever]

looking forwards to the Eng v SA final friday morning.

back to back irb jwc champs would be exciting for the future. especially if they can manage to beat these monster, not-so-baby boks!

[DaveM]

am watching the sky highlights of the semi-final games now. the skill on display ball in hand from england is actually breathtaking first hand. personal favourite so far is england number 1 danny hobbs-awoyemi who, after scoring a try, receives the ball in open play from an interception with his own winger outside him who calls for the prop to put in a grubber to the corner...which he proceeds to do...perfectly! sexton couldnt have done better...and the kiwi commentator says that if billie burns goes off at 10 they could move the prop into the position just fine. classic.

I thought the build up to the Hobbs-Awoyemi try was simply a sensational passage of play. England play rugby like the Baby Blacks were playing 5/6 years ago. Back then it wasn't clear how England would ever get to that level. Now they are there.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Good point Cumbrian.

Not trying to have a dig at the Irish boys, but surely you'd prefer money was invested on youth instead of the big bucks some of the provinces spend on "project players".

I can't imagine Aki, Payne etc were cheap.

Since when are we not investing in the youth?!?!?!...(the provinces have some of biggest academies in Europe) I think Bringing in SH talent is necessary for squad depth and competing against the French but Leinster have regularly fielded all Irish first XVs.

Irish players in general develope a little later but we always see players make the step up from u20 level to Provincial and this year should be no different. This team was missing 5-6 front line players (Including two of the captains SOB and Leavy) so to make the semi's was a great achievement imo.

I don't think I did say the Irish weren't investing in youth.

I suggested the money spent on project players could be used elsewhere. More alluding to the point raised earlier that England invest a lot more in youth than Ireland as we're buckled. Maybe because we don't bring in project players we can afford to invest elsewhere?

[MMaaxx]

Boks have beaten Eng each of the last two tournaments. Hopefully the final is the 3rd time in a row. Going to be very tough as England is looking really good. I think the two games against the Baby Blacks will be advantageous for SA. Today's match was really test match intensity.

[Taylorman]

From the start I thought the winner would be us, SA or England. We were pretty close to ripping that one off last night but a couple of the big boys just ripped through a couple of our guys at the end. At one breakdown our 10 got around behind the ruck, targeted the bok runner, went at him low and hard around the legs and the bok boy just went through him like a ferry through water.

Our side has got better with each match and with the final I'd like to think that we played the final last night but England do look impressive. Big boys as well.

Will go for the bok's (Ive given up calling them babies!) by a whisker. Hard to compare with neither SA nor us playing them this tournament. A kind of hulk versus gigantor final!

[Biltong]

If the Baby Boks want to win the final they will need to play more positive rugby, it was the most frustrating match I have watched in a long, long time.

[thebandwagonsociety]

Congrats to England, thoroughly deserved victory. They are developing some tasty talent for the future.

For Ireland, overall the competition must be seen as a success as we had never progressed this far before. Some good talent there in the squad and it will be interesting to see them come through to the provincial sides in the coming years.

Some talk on here about money and such. I think players can only develop at the rate that their environment allows. I would assume (and that is a terrible thing to do on this site) that the Irish kids are mostly 1 year removed from the schools cup competitions and therefore have 1 years exposure to academy/club rugby whereas the youth system in England would have players integrated into clubs at an earlier stage. Doesn't mean one way is wholy better than the other and doesn't mean money is the sole factor. A Wilkinson/Sexton will still come through either system every generation or so.

[quinsforever]

all this talk of money is missing a very important point. england's 20 yr olds winning the jwc last yr and maybe this year, show we are reaping the rewards of RWC victory in 2003. that would have been a huge inspiration to these then 8-10 year olds, and a huge help in recruiting kids, coaches and parents to clubs and academies.

[rodders]

From the start I thought the winner would be us, SA or England.

Yeah these 3 are on a different level - in fact they look like they'd dominate some senior sides too.

Disappointed for Ireland but given the size difference between the sides we've done ok and we just need to keep improving. There was 14 or 15 kg difference between the English captain and ours and that is very difficult to compete with when you multiply across the board.

We are getting the young guys in S&C programs earlier now so hopefully in future we can close the gap.

Liked the look or the Irish full back and outside centre. The sub half backs mad e a big difference too.

[thebandwagonsociety]

Ringrose and Kelleher? I'd like to see both of them given Pro12 time in the coming season.
In the forwards, will O'Donoghue get some time in the Munster team this coming year?

[rodders]

Yeah, really liked the look of ringrose - he reminds me of a young drico.....  

[thebandwagonsociety]

At least someone in the underage system reminds people of a young Drico, it certainly isn't something found in the senior set up.

[HammerofThunor]

From the start I thought the winner would be us, SA or England.

Yeah these 3 are on a different level - in fact they look like they'd dominate some senior sides too.

Disappointed for Ireland but given the size difference between the sides we've done ok and we just need to keep improving. There was 14 or 15 kg difference between the English captain and ours and that is very difficult to compete with when you multiply across the board.

We are getting the young guys in S&C programs earlier now so hopefully in future we can close the gap.

Liked the look or the Irish full back and outside centre. The sub half backs mad e a big difference too.

er...are you aware that the England captain was a lock and the Irish captain was an 8? There's a 10kg difference between the English captain and the English 8 so there's a 4-5kg difference between the Irish and English equivalent in one position.

[rodders]

5kg is still significant.

Yes I was aware the English captain was a lock and at 110kgs he's bigger than the Irish senior captain Paul O'Connell, let alone his U-20s counterpart.

[Taylorman]

From the start I thought the winner would be us, SA or England.

Yeah these 3 are on a different level - in fact they look like they'd dominate some senior sides too.

Disappointed for Ireland but given the size difference between the sides we've done ok and we just need to keep improving. There was 14 or 15 kg difference between the English captain and ours and that is very difficult to compete with when you multiply across the board.

We are getting the young guys in S&C programs earlier now so hopefully in future we can close the gap.

Liked the look or the Irish full back and outside centre. The sub half backs mad e a big difference too.

Yeah size at this level is huge. As our guys said tonight we seem to go for pace and skill then add the bulk later at AB level where the English and boks go for size first then try and add the skills. For some reason that gives me a sense of satisfaction when watching the ABs vs the two sides, with both sides presently still trying very hard to add the skill factor around the big guys and us getting regularly dominated up front...yet coping with it. A kind of beauty and the beast.

Ireland and Wales look to be the NH version of us. Between the three of us we just don't have the numbers playing to find large numbers of big boys so we rely on cunning...   ...some of those boys running on were clearly not track athletes.

[lostinwales]

5kg is still significant.

Yes I was aware the English captain was a lock and at 110kgs he's bigger than the Irish senior captain Paul O'Connell, let alone his U-20s counterpart.

110 kg isnt huge for a lock these days. And Itoje looks like he might turn in to something special

[rodders]

Ireland and Wales look to be the NH version of us.

Well we have stolen all your coaches.... but thanks I'll take the compliment...

[HammerofThunor]

If 5kg is significant then surely exaggerating it to 14-15kg is more significant?

Right, because I'm bored I've pulled the numbers of the IRB JWC website (at least they 'should' be consitent)

Means (all/fowards/backs)

England height (cm) (187/189/184)
England weight (kg) (98/106/88)

Ireland height (cm) (186/188/184)
Ireland weight (kg) (98/104/92)

General stuff

There are 6 English players heavier than the Irish equivalent (3, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 12). 4 of these are 5kg or more
There are two English players the same weight as the Irish equivalent (1 and 4).
There are 7 Irish players heavier than the Irish equivalent (2, 7, 10, 11, 13, 14 and 15). 4 of these are 5kg or more.

So it seems the Irish backs are generall bigger than the English equivalents and the England forwards are generally bigger than the Irish equivalents. At least in the starters.

Make of that what you will

[LeinsterFan4life]

Its much better to have the skill rather than the size at this level as bulk can always be added later when they go into the academies.

Very happy with the backs that are starting to come out of the Leinster setup although, Dooley apart there wasn't really a promising prop there.

[HammerofThunor]

5kg is still significant.

Yes I was aware the English captain was a lock and at 110kgs he's bigger than the Irish senior captain Paul O'Connell, let alone his U-20s counterpart.

Specifically to that Stephen Gardiner (Itoje's counterpart) is down as 110kg

[Sgt_Pooly]

So is it a myth that England are bigger than their Irish equivalent or are the English just more conditioned?

The only side who have looked "more skilled" than the English have been New Zealand imo

[lostinwales]

Maybe England just look bigger because they play in white?

I really dont want to stir things but this reminds me a little of the debate a few weeks back about funding for Irish regions (as in despite the poor celtic angle they are better funded than AP clubs, although of course there are just 4 vs 12).

[HammerofThunor]

New Zealand are overall a little bit lighter than England (1kg) but the English fowards are bigger (2kg) and backs smaller (3kg).

South Africa are pretty big (5kg per player on average) compared with England. But Wales have 4kg on the English on average.

[HammerofThunor]

So is it a myth that England are bigger than their Irish equivalent or are the English just more conditioned?

The only side who have looked "more skilled" than the English have been New Zealand imo

English forwards are generally bigger. Especially in the back 5, but not massively. Irish forwards are bigger (one off or usually I don't know)

[DaveM]

Hood pointed out that this isn't a particularly big England side. Our LH looks big, as do our locks (Itoje will fill out over the next couple of years, so I predict he'll start playing 6 for Sarries and then move to lock). Our backrow are reasonably large, but certainly not massive.

And our backs are not a big group. Tompkins, Earl, Packman and Morris will all be back next year (4 of the 7 starting backs against Ireland), and will presumably be bigger when they return. Paul Hill, the TH will also be back next year (unless like Sinkler last year and Wilson this he is given the summer off).

People always assume England u20 sides are massive, but they often aren't. It's not unusual for the Welsh side to be bigger for instance. This English sides' main strength is it's basic skills and game management. Size will come later.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I've always thought we looked a little more conditioned than our NH counterparts rather than bigger.

As mentioned earlier, it's more than likely the extra time spent in a professional environment.

[Cumbrian]

It feels a little sour to have to continually go back to this weight and size issue. Anybody who watched the game yesterday must have been able to see that the English players won because they had good skills that were superior to their opponents'.

[quinsforever]

i think the reason the english players looked bigger was their vastly superior power and conditioning. if a pudgy bloke and a superfit bloke weighing the same stand next to each other its pretty clear which looks more intimidating.

as mentioned above several times i am sure it is the involvment earlier in professional acadmy setups that accounts for this, plus the fact we have 5 times as many academies.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

If 5kg is significant then surely exaggerating it to 14-15kg is more significant?

Right, because I'm bored I've pulled the numbers of the IRB JWC website (at least they 'should' be consitent)

Means (all/fowards/backs)

England height (cm) (187/189/184)
England weight (kg) (98/106/88)

Ireland height (cm) (186/188/184)
Ireland weight (kg) (98/104/92)

General stuff

There are 6 English players heavier than the Irish equivalent (3, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 12). 4 of these are 5kg or more
There are two English players the same weight as the Irish equivalent (1 and 4).
There are 7 Irish players heavier than the Irish equivalent (2, 7, 10, 11, 13, 14 and 15). 4 of these are 5kg or more.

So it seems the Irish backs are generall bigger than the English equivalents and the England forwards are generally bigger than the Irish equivalents. At least in the starters.

Make of that what you will

Seldom do bullsh!t-busters like that find their way to these annals.

Mind you, I often suspect that the elements put forward by the coaches in the datasets declared for physical player dimensions are composed of tweaked bullsh!t.

Great work, HoT 

[rodders]

I think you have to take the official weights with a pinch of salt, anyone can see that England were a lot bigger than Ireland particularly in the pack - same with SA being bigger than NZ.

If the majority of your tight 5 are conceding 5kgs per man then it doesn't matter about the size of the backs as you aren't going to get much of a platform.

[lostinwales]

Maybe size isnt quite everything?

[DaveM]

I think you have to take the official weights with a pinch of salt, anyone can see that England were a lot bigger than Ireland particularly in the pack - same with SA being bigger than NZ.

If the majority of your tight 5 are conceding 5kgs per man then it doesn't matter about the size of the backs as you aren't going to get much of a platform.  

So England have virtually no chance against Wales many years then, as the Welsh pack is often bigger than the English one.

England smashed Ireland because we had the better players. We offloaded and moved the ball, and we picked angles, and Ireland couldn't handle it.

[rodders]

England smashed Ireland because we had the better players. We offloaded and moved the ball, and we picked angles, and Ireland couldn't handle it.

No England smashed Ireland because your players are on S&C programs earlier than ours so our pack weren't able to compete with the size and physicality. Most of our guys would only be a year into full time programmes at this level.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[No 7&1/2]

Isn't it a bit of both? There's some good players in Englands pack and they're big as well and probably going to get bigger as they get a bit older. Doesn't mean they lack skill and nous.

[quinsforever]

in that particular match ireland were also very significantly outskilled and outplayed. england clearly relaxed 2nd half with the final to come. what was it at half time 26-3? that wasnt JUST strength and conditioning, or england would have been more dominant in the 2nd half when conditioning counts for me...

[DaveM]

Absolutely. England are not running way with games at the end as the conditioning kicks in. England tore into Ireland using basic skills the Irish just don't have. If Rodders wants to reassure himself that the gap will narrow in a couple of years as the players get bigger he can, but for me players like Hobbs-Awoyemi, Hill and Itoje have a skillset which their Irish counterparts will never match.

[rodders]

I don't know if the gap will narrow - that wasn't a great Irish side.

What I do know is we won't threaten the likes of NZ and SA at this level until we get guys on S&C programs at schoolboy level, which is something the provincial branches are working to introduce.

If this is implemented we shouldn't see such physical disparities a few years down the line because right now its not an even playing field,

[rodders]

in that particular match ireland were also very significantly outskilled and outplayed. england clearly relaxed 2nd half with the final to come. what was it at half time 26-3? that wasnt JUST strength and conditioning, or england would have been more dominant in the 2nd half when conditioning counts for me...

I don't think the English players are fitter than ours. We just don't have the size and physicality across the forward pack.

The power deferential would be more pronounced in the first half where it was more structured - tailoring off in the second as the bigger guys tire and the game breaks up.

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