England v New Zealand - Test 2 (14 Jun 2014)

NEW ZEALAND v ENGLAND
Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
Saturday 14th June, KO 19:35 local, 08:35 BST

TEAMS
New Zealand
1: Woodcock, 2: Coles, 3: O Franks, 4: Retallick, 5: Whitelock, 6: Messam, 7: McCaw (c), 8: Kaino, 9: A Smith, 10: Cruden, 11: Savea, 12: Nonu, 13: C Smith, 14: Jane, 15: B Smith
Bench: 16: Mealamu, 17: Crockett, 18: Faumuina, 19: Tuipulotu, 20: Vito, 21: Perenara, 22: Barrett, 23: Fekitoa
England
1: Marler, 2: Webber, 3: Wilson, 4: Launchbury, 5: Parling, 6: Wood, 7: Robshaw (c), 8: Morgan, 9: Care, 10: Farrell, 11: Yarde, 12: Twelvetrees, 13: Burrell, 14: Tuilagi (what was he thinking?), 15: Brown
Bench: 16: Hartley, 17: Mullan, 18: Brookes, 19: Lawes, 20: Vunipola, 21: Youngs, 22: Burns, 23: Ashton

OFFICIALS
Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
ARs: Nigel Owens (WRU) & Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
TMO: George Ayoub (ARU)

Let's see what kingelderfield thinks, and then hope Lancaster does the opposite. I think Bomber has earned a lot of credit as a selector today.

Is Yarde really the best option at 11?

Is Ashton really the best option at 14?

What about burns at 10 and Farrell at 12?

Biltong wrote:Is Yarde really the best option at 11?

I think so. I don't see who else we have; he's a lot better than May.

blackcanelion wrote:Is Ashton really the best option at 14?

What about burns at 10 and Farrell at 12?

Again, I think he's had a good season and is better than May. When Wade's back he walks into the 14 shirt.

Burns at 10 and Farrell at 12 could be interesting. It would allow Eastmond or Burrell to wear the 22 shirt and be used for impact (rather than needing a replacement fly half).

Hartley,Lawes,Wood,Vunipola,Farrell,Burrell and Ashton in for me

for me it has to be Manu and Eastmond in the centres providing we have burns or cip at flyhalf. Farrell's a great player but i think today showed how our backs are being hampered by him.

You can't drop parling out the squad
Bench him with Haskell webber and Morgan and we have some serious power for the last 20
Can't see sinkler making the bench,Brooke's and Waller maybe
Will care be fit
The midfield will be interesting
Does eastmond keep his place or is he the perfect 23
May is growing into test rugby still making mistakes but improving
Does he offer enough though at the moment
Would Ashton flourish under our new style

May played really well wouldn't drop him.

 Sinckler although I would love it prob wont make the team.

 Think Eastmond and Tuilagi has so much potential as the match went on they worked so well together.

 Farrell doesn't have the speed for 12, NZ will just mark Manu and the winger, Eastmond speed and footwork will draw in more players.

 Harsh on Hskell he had a great game.

 But vunipola will be on the bench.

The positive for NZ is that they are guaranteed a dry deck in a nice closed roof stadium. There were benign conditions today and the handling and accuracy were abject but now they are guaranteed the chance of perfect conditions to show their attacking game and place some pressure on the outside of England who were let off too often today by pointless and repeated kicking. Keep that ball in possession and string some phases together and stretch this bunched up England defence. Far too much kicking today which allowed England to slow the game down to their comfort level.

nathan wrote:for me it has to be Manu and Eastmond in the centres providing we have burns or cip at flyhalf. Farrell's a great player but i think today showed how our backs are being hampered by him.

Really? We didn't score a try today? Our attack from line breaks was good but after them we had no real cohesion and lost a lot of momentum. That's down to Burns for me. If I'm honest it didnt seem like a shift in our attacking play but more of a continuation from the 6n. Granted Burns was great today but Farrell still holds up well in comparison.

For me I thought Eastmond stood out as the real difference pace and handling ability gave Manu much more space.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

nathan wrote:for me it has to be Manu and Eastmond in the centres providing we have burns or cip at flyhalf. Farrell's a great player but i think today showed how our backs are being hampered by him.

Really? We didn't score a try today? Our attack from line breaks was good but after them we had no real cohesion and lost a lot of momentum. That's down to Burns for me. If I'm honest it didnt seem like a shift in our attacking play but more of a continuation from the 6n. Granted Burns was great today but Farrell still holds up well in comparison.

For me I thought Eastmond stood out as the real difference pace and handling ability gave Manu much more space.

 Also the two try scoring chances we did have we hampered by NZ killing or giving away professional fowls.

It's mid-winter so we gave away some prize-winning turkeys for a mid-winter Christmas.

Those who stuck their hand up for a Test/Bench spot:

2. R Webber - His throwing was excllent, handled extremely well around the park and looked willing to carry. Strong clear-outs and solid tackling.

- I'd take Webber to start over Harltey who's very short of match fitness.

5. G Parling - Wouldn't have been my selection but he ran the line-out faultlessly, cleared out well and nicked one. I like Attwood on the bench if Lawes starts but I can see him losing out if Lawes is selected.

6. J Haskell - Was top of the tackling charts again and put in a very physical shift. Carried fairly well when he had the chance and tried to be as industrious as Wood. Likely he'll lose out altogether next weekend but harsh.

8. B Morgan - Some super handling and ball skills from Morgan with a couple of excellent carries. Tackled extremely well, which was a 'work-on' for him. He'd be my starter next week with Billy on the bench.

10. F Burns - A superb display in almost every facet of the game, took the ball to the line, kicked well from hand and tee. Defended well, if not as aggressively as Farrell. He deserves the bench spot.

12. K Eastmond - Has a tendency to come in and out of games but stood up very well in defence and offered something we have yet to see in attack from 12. Certainly assisted Tuilagi and given some more time could evolve a superb partnership. Certainly a starter for me next week.

There were some other good performances from the likes of Launchbury and Robshaw was excellent. May did well most of the time. Yarde didn't look particularly effective out there and there'll be calls for Ashton to start ahead of him at 14.

I'd love to see Eastmond start next week, he wasn't exposed defensively which was always a worry and is undoubtedly our most talented option in that position.

England suddenly have strength in depth all over the place. I wouldn't make many changes to the starting line up. I'd bring Farrell, Wood, Lawes and Waller, Care and Hartley onto the bench, and I think Burrell is a handy bench option too.

Yarde didn't get much chance in attack, but I thought his defence was very strong. Even the yellow was a necessary evil.

DaveM wrote:England suddenly have strength in depth all over the place.

I wouldn't describe this as sudden. Lancaster has been working towards this since his appointment and now has choices in every position and those choices can slot into the gameplan. Its why I have them( as well as home advantage) as favourites for the WC

Not a bad performance from England who as we all know were missing a lot of players.

DaveM wrote:England suddenly have strength in depth all over the place. I wouldn't make many changes to the starting line up. I'd bring Farrell, Wood, Lawes and Waller, Care and Hartley onto the bench, and I think Burrell is a handy bench option too.

Got to say I think Farrell and Wood will definitely start. Lawes possibly on the bench and how does one leave out Billy Vunipola?

I think it's got to be tactical. If we'd had the sort of impact from the bench we did in the 6N then we could've won that Test. I'd like to see a bench of:

16. D Hartley 17. A Waller 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Vunipola 21. B Youngs 22. F Burns 23. B Foden

That's got some really good impact to it I think. If Attwood misses out it'll be a poor call. At 60 to 65 brining on Hartley, Attwood and Vunipola is a real step change. Add that to Burns and Foden to the wing and it's complimentary I think.

I thought Youngs was poor - too many mistakes, a little slow to the ruck at times and kicking inconsistent.

May was a little bit more roadrunner than test wing and got caught position-wise a bit.

We missed a playmaker at centre - maybe Eastmond could come off the bench if 12T is fit to start.

Wilson, bless him, should reverse the experiment where he's had his hands replace with his feet - it's not working.

Burns was ok, altho his real contribution was kicking at goal tbh.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I thought Youngs was poor - too many mistakes, a little slow to the ruck at times and kicking inconsistent.

May was a little bit more roadrunner than test wing and got caught position-wise a bit.

We missed a playmaker at centre - maybe Eastmond could come off the bench if 12T is fit to start.

Wilson, bless him, should reverse the experiment where he's had his hands replace with his feet - it's not working.

Burns was ok, altho his real contribution was kicking at goal tbh.

Even though I am a Gloucester fan I think May has had a few chances and has not convinced at test level. Jury is still out on Yarde. Now that Ashton is back to form he must play. The man is a complete tool but unfortunately a talented one.

OMc wrote:So with that last-minute loss, who does SL go for next week?

For me:
1: Marler
2: Webber
3: Wilson
4: Launchbury
5: Lawes Attwood
6: Wood Haskell
7: Robshaw
8: Morgan
9: Care
10: Farrell Burns
11: Yarde
12: Eastmond
13: Tuilagi
14: Ashton
15: Brown

16: Hartley, 17: Thomas, 18: Collier, 19: Lawes, 20: Vunipola, 21: Youngs, 22: Farrell, 23: Cips

My changes would be Attwood in to add physicality to the front five carrying. Hask keeping his place after a really strong performance, thought he offered a lot more around the park then Wood and worked well on the deck. Care in for Youngs if fit. Burns keeps his place after a strong game, Farrell has had a niggle in the last two games, looked out of sorts and generally been playing far below himself. Ashton comes in for the disappointing May.

The bench has a lot more experience with Hartley, Thomas, Lawes and Vunipola on there. That's some real impact to add to the pack when NZ begin to go through the gears later in the game. Youngs and Farrell (if fit) add a lot of control when they come on and Cips can cover f/b well.

I'd like to see:

1.Marler
2.Webber
3.Wilson
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Wood or Haskell - Would be happy with either
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Care
10.Farrell

11.Yarde
12.Eastmond - Give him another go
13.Tuilagi
14.May or Ashton - Would take either
15.Brown

16.Hartley - Wouldn't start him short of match fitness and after Webber played so strongly
17.Mullan
18.Thomas
19.Parling
20.Vuinipola
21.Youngs
22.Burns
23.Burrell

Marler once again putting in a big performance and making up for the absence of Corbs. I just hope the lack of Mako on the bench doesn't lead to him falling to injury as well due to the pressure of playing close to 80 mins each game. Both Wilson and Marler looked to be tiring on the 60 minute mark and with the likes of Corbs, Mako or Cole on the bench would have been subbed.

Also hope Brown can shine in the next game. His first average performance since moving to FB for England.

Maybe drop a back from the bench to accommodate wood/Haskell and vunipola/Morgan
If Farrell and care start have youngs and burns as replacements
We can cover injuries
Farrell can play centre
Eastmond wing
NZ will be better next week for sure

blackcanelion wrote:Is Ashton really the best option at 14?

What about burns at 10 and Farrell at 12?

Should Farrell come straight back in to the side?

majesticimperialman wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:Is Ashton really the best option at 14?

What about burns at 10 and Farrell at 12?

Should Farrell come straight back in to the side?

Yes definitely for me, but at 10 not 12. Burns had an excellent game and showed some good touches especially kicking from hand and tee. However almost every time we had opportunities in their 22 to stretch the defence and score we lost all our shape attacking and ended up going backwards. Whilst the sin-bin 'inconsistencies' were frustrating looking back on the game (after calming down a bit!) this loss of direction in their 22 was where we threw away our chance to win. Farrell should give us that bit more shape commanding the game from 10 with some more experience.

Lots of tough decisions. The easy one is Care back for Youngs. Burns was good on the whole but didn't take a lead in the opposition 22. Farrell back, I think, but Burns might deserve a bench slot.

In practically every other case today's starter could feasibly hold on to their place, although I think Morgan and Eastmond are the two that stand out as deserving another run at it. Haskell and Parling likely to be unlucky losers.

How likely do think it is that Lancaster will bring Foden in on one wing. It would give England another kicking option. Given their potential edge at the set piece I think it's a chance to dominate field position. Especially if Owen plays 1st V.

Very unlikely, given that he has 3 decent wings to pick from, and I can't recall Foden ever playing brilliantly there.

My main hope for wing is that Wade will finally get a go next season. From what I've seen he looks a cut above the rest and potentially something very special.

Any injury news out of the camp?

Wi11 wrote:Very unlikely, given that he has 3 decent wings to pick from, and I can't recall Foden ever playing brilliantly there.

My main hope for wing is that Wade will finally get a go next season. From what I've seen he looks a cut above the rest and potentially something very special.

I think England have a lot of depth coming through. Especially in terms of size and/or pace. Our cupboard seems a bit bare in comparison.

bc It's been highlighted we need back up for Savea. Piutau out reinforces that but otherwise the squad we have is fine: they just need to lift their intensity.

Cruden has to be dropped. It's not his fault but he's not at his best and this England side is too good to have passengers. His goalkicking was thankfully good but he's not match fit and has no running game at present. I'd have Barrett playing in his specialist position at 10 and have Slade on the reserves and tell Cruden, don't worry, your position is safe but just get yourself back up to speed.

I'd send a message to Messam that his performance wasn't good enough. Put Vito in at 8, who looked hungry and sharp, and Kaino at 6. Put Messam on the bench and cage that aggression and then unleash him in the final quarter.

I'd give Woodcock no more than 50 minutes and even look to change him at half time. The whole pack needs a rark up and I want them to come out with controlled fury as their pride has hopefully been stung by that limp performance.

In the backthree it's tempting to make changes but with injuries I wouldn't know who to put in instead. I imagine Savea is out for the whole series like Read but for me having three fullbacks as wings is defensively minded and the only plus is Fekitoa is allowed as an impact player. There's no balance in that back three and it lacks the power that Savea and his forward partner in crime Savea provides. But we're thin on the ground in wing replacements as Halai didn't make his opportunities so even though it'd be tempting to replace Dagg with Smith at the back (is his raking punt a double edged sword? Maybe keeping possession sometimes is better than kicking for territory) but who would come on the right or left wing in his place?

They need to look at this kicking game and reassess. I'm not just talking about kicking for territory. That I can see the point of at least provided that it's done properly. Take Aaron Smith. England string some phases together and McCaw gets the turnover. Smith kicks it straight back down the middle and a pointless, inaccurate kick gives England back possession straight away. But it's also on attack. NZ chose the short side a lot of times and these speculating dab kicks gave possession away. Cruden on the counterattack and his two outside men were marked but he had no one in front of him and he chooses to put in a nothing kick to Brown. I've never seen so much kicking on attack. It was like watching SA in Dunedin a few years ago. Stop kicking the rucking ball away and relieving pressure on England.

I don't think Hansen will make any of my changes and he knows a lot more about rugby than me. But England's performance aside and the pressure they placed on us, that was the worst performance against England - even worse than 2012 (obviously England was much better that day than they were yesterday but even NZ did positive things in 2012 which were glaringly absent yesterday, bar the last try and the phases leading up to the first penalty) - from a NZ perspective. I get why we're kicking so much, why we're standing off from the rucks but it's getting thought out and it's time for a different approach. These ugly wins feel like losses and that makes France, England Ireland and England in a row where we could've easily lost and dare I say it, deserved to lose. All credit to those sides but a good performance like Ellis Park (which had its fair share of negatives as well) is well overdue and I question these tactics are the best means of getting that result.

The academies structure in England is around a decade old now, and it's now producing large numbers of layers in basically every position. For instance, this years u20 side has 3 extremely promising locks, 3 excellent centres, 4 very good backrows, more good SHs than could be fitted into the squad etc. There' no end in sight in terms of talent production - it looks like we are finally going to make use of our large player base.

I'm not sure why people wanting to drop Yarde. I think he'll be on the wing until after the WC at least - he's got a really well rounded game. I can't see how you drop Parling after that either. The bench will be very strong, the only problem the replacement props are unlikely to be high impact. If Waller and Sinkler are training well then I'd try them.

Have said before for me May is your weak link in that back 3.

Yea May was rubbish again. He just looks rushed and panicked all game, makes poor decisions and gives no reliability. Some players take to Int rugby, May isn't one of those unfortunately.

I imagine it'll be Yarde and Ashton on the wings, which'll be a good thing. Going forward it'll then be up to Wade/Nowell/Watson to break into that triumvirate.

Only concern with a Yarde/Brown/Ashton back three is a lack of pace, yes Yarde is quick but Ashton isn't for a winger and Brown isn't for a full back. They'll be dangerous but I don't think we'll ever see them scoring long range tries as the opposition will always have players that can track them down.

The issue with scoring long range tries is less the pace of the back three, it's the drag caused by opposition hands on jerseys...

 Or the taking out of players at the rucks that leads to surges up the middle.

Ashton might lack in certain areas but pace isn't one of them!!

Not sure I agree with people on Yarde or May being dropped. Ashton is rapid, and picks better support lines so could be a great impact sub. But his tackling is far poorer than those two. I thought May was fine aside from some slightly poor defensive positioning. I wouldn't be too displeased if Ashton comes in, but I will be watching his tackling from between my fingers.

When in form, Ashton does get on the end of other people's breaks. No-one was near Eastmond, and only Haskell ran a line which might have helped Robshaw's break. There's no way of knowing if Ashton would have spotted either but it's the kind of thing he does best.

I expect wholesale changes because he'll want to see how his 'first choice' side fronts up. Depending on the he result he might be more flexible for the third test.

Its harsh on the guys who played yesterday but some have already put down their markers.

The single most important player to bring back is care, and I think care and Farrell at 9 and 10 are a shoe-in for the second test.

Given how well we competed up front with them included, I personally would be tempted to stick with parling and webber. Obviously Lawes is one of our standout players and has the club combination with Hartley, but it was great to see us so rock solid at the lineout.

I guess Lancaster will think lawes/Hartley can replicate that success and be more beneficial in other areas, but parling/webber can count themselves unlucky.

milkyboy wrote:I expect wholesale changes because he'll want to see how his 'first choice' side fronts up. Depending on the he result he might be more flexible for the third test.

Its harsh on the guys who played yesterday but some have already put down their markers.

The single most important player to bring back is care, and I think care and Farrell at 9 and 10 are a shoe-in for the second test.

Given how well we competed up front with them included, I personally would be tempted to stick with parling and webber. Obviously Lawes is one of our standout players and has the club combination with Hartley, but it was great to see us so rock solid at the lineout.

I guess Lancaster will think lawes/Hartley can replicate that success and be more beneficial in other areas, but parling/webber can count themselves unlucky.

Got to say that I think Parling will stay. He's one of Lancaster's trusted leuitenants and I can't see him making way just yet. Lawes will be on the bench I think with Attwood missing out. It wouldn't be my choice.

Hartley will also get the bench I think with Webber having an excellent game and Hartley short on fitness. Otherwise it's going to be business as usual with possibly Waller coming on to the bench instead of Mullan. Care, Farrell, 36, Wood and Vunipola will all return I think. Morgs to the bench Eastmond might get a bench spot and Lancaster will def select Goode somewhere!

I'm not sure 36 will come straight back in - he hasn't played at-all for about a month. It will be an interesting test of SL's philosophy as to how many of the starters from the weekend who played well are dropped.

Would love eastmond to stay involved
He adds something different as will wade when fit

sickofwendy wrote:Would love eastmond to stay involved
He adds something different as will wade when fit

I think you're right. Full credit to Lancaster and the squad. They really looked to play 15 man rugby. They're only going to get better. We know England can play 10 man rugby, playing 15 man rugby under pressure is going to make them a much more formidable team in the future.

But it looks like I'm wrong. It seems 36 and Burrell could be reunited, with Tuilagi moving to the wing (SL has been toying with this for ages, and I for one would love to see it given a go).

Tuilagi to thw wing?

Presumably this would leave Eastmond on the bench. This would be harsh, but he'd be an excellent bench option as he can play almost anywhere across the backline.

Alex Goode isn't training which will put him out of contention for a bench spot.

I'm quite willing to get sucked up in the self-belief that we won't be on the end of a hiding but I'd like to know where we see our main try-scoring threats. We won in 2012 because we finished off three good chances in quick succession. We lost at the weekend because we didn't have the composure to take any of our chances.

Manu on the wing? now theres a thought.

Presumably left?

Manu is definitely the go to man wherever he is. Relishes playing the AB's. Can tell by that cheeky Samoan grin...saw that many a time in my club days... he loves it alright.