England v New Zealand - Test 2 (14 Jun 2014)

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NEW ZEALAND v ENGLAND
Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
Saturday 14th June, KO 19:35 local, 08:35 BST

TEAMS
New Zealand
1: Woodcock, 2: Coles, 3: O Franks, 4: Retallick, 5: Whitelock, 6: Messam, 7: McCaw (c), 8: Kaino, 9: A Smith, 10: Cruden, 11: Savea, 12: Nonu, 13: C Smith, 14: Jane, 15: B Smith
Bench: 16: Mealamu, 17: Crockett, 18: Faumuina, 19: Tuipulotu, 20: Vito, 21: Perenara, 22: Barrett, 23: Fekitoa
England
1: Marler, 2: Webber, 3: Wilson, 4: Launchbury, 5: Parling, 6: Wood, 7: Robshaw (c), 8: Morgan, 9: Care, 10: Farrell, 11: Yarde, 12: Twelvetrees, 13: Burrell, 14: Tuilagi (what was he thinking?), 15: Brown
Bench: 16: Hartley, 17: Mullan, 18: Brookes, 19: Lawes, 20: Vunipola, 21: Youngs, 22: Burns, 23: Ashton

OFFICIALS
Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
ARs: Nigel Owens (WRU) & Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
TMO: George Ayoub (ARU)

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Manu on the wing? now theres a thought.

Presumably left?

Given his big right fend and tendency to crash over in the left corner I'd guess so yes. Yarde showing up well on the right when he's usually an 11 makes it seem more likely as well.

The press seem to be pretty convinced that Twelvetrees is in line for a recall:

1.Marler
2.Webber or Hartley
3.Wilson
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Vunipola or Morgan

9.Care
10.Farrell

11.Tuilagi
12.Twelvetrees
13.Burrell
14.Yarde
15.Brown

16.Webber or Hartley
17.Mullan or Waller
18.Thomas
19.Parling
20.Morgan or Vunipola - Whoever doesn't start will likely bench. Harsh on Haskell but one of 4 back rows could consider themselves unlucky
21.Youngs
22.Burns
23.May or Eastmond - Given the lack of FB cover without May we may see Eastmond drop out all together which would be very harsh!

Not what I'd go for exactly but from press reports it sounds like the above may be what Lancaster is edging towards.

Would be harsh call for Eastmond and Haskell to drop out but I can see it happening at the moment.

Have to admit with the excellence of the first effort by England how Lancaster handles this little conundrum will be a very amusing little exercise to watch. In a way if they'd been beaten easily chopping and changing wouldn't be a problem.

But how he assesses the value of a player who has risen to the occasion and played well over an incumbant coming off club rugby will be interesting.

How he selects the side yet maintains high morale is fascinating. Its something Hansen does well these days but winning regardless of the selection certainly helps.

In a way he cant win if they lose- if he selects the same side he'll get accused of not starting his best, if he puts all his best on paper on the field, he'll get accused of not rewarding those who stepped up, or not learning from the fact that they havnt played a test, where others have.

A fun week ahead it seems...

I will be dismayed if we see Tuilagi on the wing this week.  He is a centre, and that's where you play him.  Whilst I appreciate Lancaster has real selection headaches after the back up guys putting in a credible showing last week, the answer is not sticking round pegs in square holes just to ensure that you get certain guys on the pitch.

Manu has to start at 13.  You only had to watch the game on Saturday to see that he is England's biggest attacking threat.  To move him to another position would be misguided.

For me, Twelvetrees is the one to miss out and not make the 23.  Tough call maybe, but one that has to be made.  Burrell is the form 12 in England and did enough for England in the 6 Nations to deserve to come straight back in.  Also, and I know some will scoff at this, we need to bring Ashton back.  He tracks the play better than any of the England wingers, and if we make breaks as we did last week, he is most likely to be there to finish them off.

Up front, I'd only make 1 change in the pack, and that is Lawes coming in for Parling.  Tough on the Tigers man, who ran an exceptional lineout at the weekend, but he does not offer what Lawes does around the park, and I think we need that this time out.

15. Mike Brown
14. Chris Ashton
13. Manu Tuilagi
12. Luther Burrell
11. Marland Yarde
10. Freddie Burns
9. Danny Care

1. Joe Marler
2. Rob Webber
3. Dave Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Courtney Lawes
6. James Haskell
7. Chris Robshaw (c)
8. Ben Morgan

16. Dylan Hartley 17. Alex Waller 18. Henry Thomas 19. Dave Attwood 20. Tom Wood 21. Ben Youngs 22. Owen Farrell 23. Kyle Eastmond

That's my 23 for this week.  I suspect the one that people will pick out is no Billy V.  For me, he has looked exhausted in his last 2 games for Saracens, and Morgan did more than enough to keep the shirt.  Likewise Haskell as excellent and deserves to stay in.  Billy will have to wait for his next shot, and to be honest looks as if he could do with the rest anyway.

With the team extras just getting of the plane I expect many who played well for England
to start.They at least deserve a chance,NZ prior to this Test had lost Cane,Romano,Piautau,
Savea,and Read to injury.
According to reports Barrett,Woodcock and Dagg were doubtful due to knocks etc.
England had nothing to lose full of players wanting to prove a point in short a very dangerous
one.
NZ hadn't played together for 7 months and some old hands had departed notably Andrew
Hore.
The ALI SHUFFLEof Hore /Mealamu would have been preferable to rather inexperienced
Hooker.A weak spot plus experienced Locks in NZ at present Ben Franks who was one of
the form Props deserves at least a bench place.
Dagg is now doubtful and his big boot will be missed Savae may start,Read is a maybe
BUT.
NZ will manage him right even if he sits out the rest of 2014 instead of treating him
as Hape writes " a lump of meat"
Cruden is number 2 in the pecking order behind a fit Carter BUT he is not yet match fit
Slade at least on the bench next week with possibly Crotty too, journeymen that do the
basics right but never let you down.
Nonu traditionally has a poor Super season and turns it on in Black last week he didn't
but next week ?
Messam I have never been convinced of and Kaino at 6 is better option Vito is a bit iffy
but barring any thing better.
No specialist 7 cover but McCaw is doing the grunt stuff now rather than the traditional 7 role
would like to see Todd get a bench spot at some point.
On Saturdays performances 4 Ns looks wide open but AB`s like England will improve

Ozzy3213 wrote:I will be dismayed if we see Tuilagi on the wing this week.  He is a centre, and that's where you play him.  Whilst I appreciate Lancaster has real selection headaches after the back up guys putting in a credible showing last week, the answer is not sticking round pegs in square holes just to ensure that you get certain guys on the pitch.

Manu has to start at 13.  You only had to watch the game on Saturday to see that he is England's biggest attacking threat.  To move him to another position would be misguided.

For me, Twelvetrees is the one to miss out and not make the 23.  Tough call maybe, but one that has to be made.  Burrell is the form 12 in England and did enough for England in the 6 Nations to deserve to come straight back in.  Also, and I know some will scoff at this, we need to bring Ashton back.  He tracks the play better than any of the England wingers, and if we make breaks as we did last week, he is most likely to be there to finish them off.

Up front, I'd only make 1 change in the pack, and that is Lawes coming in for Parling.  Tough on the Tigers man, who ran an exceptional lineout at the weekend, but he does not offer what Lawes does around the park, and I think we need that this time out.

15. Mike Brown
14. Chris Ashton
13. Manu Tuilagi
12. Luther Burrell
11. Marland Yarde
10. Freddie Burns
9. Danny Care

1. Joe Marler
2. Rob Webber
3. Dave Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Courtney Lawes
6. James Haskell
7. Chris Robshaw (c)
8. Ben Morgan

16. Dylan Hartley 17. Alex Waller 18. Henry Thomas 19. Dave Attwood 20. Tom Wood 21. Ben Youngs 22. Owen Farrell 23. Kyle Eastmond

That's my 23 for this week.  I suspect the one that people will pick out is no Billy V.  For me, he has looked exhausted in his last 2 games for Saracens, and Morgan did more than enough to keep the shirt.  Likewise Haskell as excellent and deserves to stay in.  Billy will have to wait for his next shot, and to be honest looks as if he could do with the rest anyway.

It is no Tom Wood that sticks out for me. Haskell played well but I think Wood is one the most effective England players. Haskell, like Attwood, is the sort of player who is great off the bench.

I would try Tuilagi on the wing. Potentially we could still reap the rewards of his attacking running but with a more effective ball player at thirteen.
15. Mike Brown
14. Chris Ashton
13. Luther Burrell
12. Billy Twelvetrees (would be happy with Eastmond)
11. Manu Tuilagi
10. Owen Farrell
9. Danny Care

1. Joe Marler
2. Rob Webber
3. Dave Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Courtney Lawes
6. Tom Wood
7. Chris Robshaw (c)
8. Ben Morgan

16. Dylan Hartley 17. Alex Waller 18. Henry Thomas 19. Dave Attwood 20. James Haskell 21. Ben Youngs 22. Freddie Burns 23. Ben Foden

I would be worried about Manu at wing
Kicks behind him etc
Big risk to play him there

I think NZ will be:

1 Woodcock
2 Coles
3 O Franks
4 Retallick
5 Whitelocck
6 Messam
7 McCaw
8 Read
9 A Smith
10 Cruden
11 Savea
12 Nonu
13 C Smith
14 B Smith
15 Dagg

16 Mealamu
17 Crockett
18 Faumoina
19 Bird
20 Kaino
21 Tawera Barlow
22 Fekitoa
23 Barrett

I think Lancaster has a few tough choices. Although it was a decent performance there were a lot of mistakes in there too. You'd imagine Wood, Lawes and Care at the least come back into the team. Does he bring Ashton in or switch Tuilagi to the wing in place or Burrell. Eastmond looked promising and I'd like to see him again with Tuilagi to be honest. Hard choice for Lancaster as we should be looking to push NZ harder in this 2nd test and stand a realistic chance of winning it.

Bc I certainly think Hansen won't panic and will plump for a similar team and tell them they just have to play a lot better at a higher intensity.

I hope he doesn't play Read. In Cruden he can see the danger of playing somebody is not match fit. By all means play Savea if he can but I'd keep the same back three and bring off Messam if he's not effective and put Vito at 8.

Dagg's injury needs to be looked at and if not fit then Smith goes to fullback and Jane to the right wing. The rest just need fire in their belly after a bumbling effort. No need to panic though which was certainly my initial reaction. The panic comes if the same team in their second match are equally poor!

I think Lancaster should be careful how he goes with this selection.
I apprecaite he has his ideal 1st 15, but many of these young lads came in and did great in the first test.

Does he want to send a signal that despite putting in a great performance you could still be dropped.
ie Eastmond did very well...he should keep his place, and make Twelvetrees fight to take it off him.

Thats what creates competition.

I also wouldnt like to see Manu out on the wing.

You get the feeling that with all his first choice centres fit, and no wingers really demanding inclusion that Lancaster has been itching to give tuilagi a go on the wing. Is the second test in New Zealand the time to try it? Who's to say. Personally I'm not generally a fan of squeezing players in out of position just to get your best players on the park, but it does depend on the set up and the flexibility of the players involved.

It must look good in training, but guess we won't know til we try it.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Bc I certainly think  Hansen won't panic and will plump for a similar team and tell them they just have to play a lot better at a higher intensity.

I hope he doesn't play Read. In Cruden he can see the danger of playing somebody is not match fit. By all means play Savea if he can but I'd keep the same back three and bring off Messam if he's not effective and put Vito at 8.

Dagg's injury needs to be looked at and if not fit then Smith goes to fullback and Jane to the right wing. The rest just need fire in their belly after a bumbling effort. No need to panic though which was certainly my initial reaction. The panic comes if the same team in their second match are equally poor!

I take your point. I think Savea's all but fit. He comes in. It depends on Dagg's fitness. By all accounts he's had problems. I'm guessing they would. have rested him already if they were going to. I still think Janes the weak link if there's a choice.

I know what you mean about Cruden. My guess is he'll play. My reason is he's more familiar with the players around him and Hansen will be hoping he plays himself into form. I'm guessing half the issues related to limited preparation time following a big game at the end of a fair amount of travel for the team as a whole (i.e. mental). I'm thinking Barrett comes on at 1st 5 if the games going well and Fekitoa might come on at wing.

I agree about the intensity. I think they'll lift it this week. I think they'll still look to the kicking game (primarily because England's only likely to have two genuine kickers in the side). Our kicking and kick chase wasn't always up to scratch. Additionally, I thought England benefited from some lax refereeing here, I'm picking it wont be the same with Peyper. Add a bit more intensity, and holding onto the ball for a few more phases and it could be interesting.

We'll have to see what England bring to the table. Looking forward to the weekend.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I will be dismayed if we see Tuilagi on the wing this week.  He is a centre, and that's where you play him.  Whilst I appreciate Lancaster has real selection headaches after the back up guys putting in a credible showing last week, the answer is not sticking round pegs in square holes just to ensure that you get certain guys on the pitch.

Manu has to start at 13.  You only had to watch the game on Saturday to see that he is England's biggest attacking threat.  To move him to another position would be misguided.

For me, Twelvetrees is the one to miss out and not make the 23.  Tough call maybe, but one that has to be made.  Burrell is the form 12 in England and did enough for England in the 6 Nations to deserve to come straight back in.  Also, and I know some will scoff at this, we need to bring Ashton back.  He tracks the play better than any of the England wingers, and if we make breaks as we did last week, he is most likely to be there to finish them off.

Up front, I'd only make 1 change in the pack, and that is Lawes coming in for Parling.  Tough on the Tigers man, who ran an exceptional lineout at the weekend, but he does not offer what Lawes does around the park, and I think we need that this time out.

15. Mike Brown
14. Chris Ashton
13. Manu Tuilagi
12. Luther Burrell
11. Marland Yarde
10. Freddie Burns
9. Danny Care

1. Joe Marler
2. Rob Webber
3. Dave Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Courtney Lawes
6. James Haskell
7. Chris Robshaw (c)
8. Ben Morgan

16. Dylan Hartley 17. Alex Waller 18. Henry Thomas 19. Dave Attwood 20. Tom Wood 21. Ben Youngs 22. Owen Farrell 23. Kyle Eastmond

That's my 23 for this week.  I suspect the one that people will pick out is no Billy V.  For me, he has looked exhausted in his last 2 games for Saracens, and Morgan did more than enough to keep the shirt.  Likewise Haskell as excellent and deserves to stay in.  Billy will have to wait for his next shot, and to be honest looks as if he could do with the rest anyway.

I agree with all of that Ozzy. My only change would be to keep Eastmond at 12 and have Burrell on the bench.

I'm also a little concerned about Farrel, he looked really uncomfortable in the final two games of the season, played well below his usual standards and apparently hurt himself before the HC final. If he is carrying an injury I'd much prefer he was rested completely then brought in. Cips on the bench also covers fullback for Goode's absence as well.

yes no need to play Farrell (or anyone) unless they are fully fit.

Tuilagi on the wing could I am sure catch kicks and track back but as far as I am aware he has no kicking game as such, and would be dependent on having the FH or FB tracking back to take a pass and make the kick to touch. Much too risky to do against the AB's.

Nice to see that as I suspected the AB's are actually mortal afterall, and nice to feel dissapointed that we did not win.

Exiledinborders wrote:
It is no Tom Wood that sticks out for me. Haskell played well but I think Wood is one the most effective England players. Haskell, like Attwood, is the sort of player who is great off the bench.

I would try Tuilagi on the wing. Potentially we could still reap the rewards of his attacking running but with a more effective ball player at thirteen.
15. Mike Brown
14. Chris Ashton
13. Luther Burrell
12. Billy Twelvetrees (would be happy with Eastmond)
11. Manu Tuilagi
10. Owen Farrell
9. Danny Care

1. Joe Marler
2. Rob Webber
3. Dave Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Courtney Lawes
6. Tom Wood
7. Chris Robshaw (c)
8. Ben Morgan

16. Dylan Hartley 17. Alex Waller 18. Henry Thomas 19. Dave Attwood 20. James Haskell 21. Ben Youngs 22. Freddie Burns 23. Ben Foden

I'd quite like to see that side, and would also be happy with Eastmond keeping his place if that's the way SL wants to go.

Tuilagi is well equipped to be a top class wing - he's quick and powerful, often scores in the corner and will be more likely to find himself one-on-one out there. He'll also have licence to track the ball, Ashton style. I read somewhere he only passed once on Saturday, which would be consistent with how I tend to view him. I have a theory that it will always be hard work for our wingers if Tuilagi is at 13. Burrell is a nice distributor - nothing flash and not good enough to play 12 in the set-up SL wants, but when he's at 13 the wings and fullback will see plenty of ball.

It would be very Harsh to simply drop Eastmond, or Haskell etc because others are back.

Tom Wood is one of Englands most important players....BUT Haskell played exceptionally well. He deserves another chance.

Dropping players who played very well sends out a bad signal.

For me, Eastmond has earned the right to start this week, the main questions were about his size and he looks to have answered those. In attack, when was the last time we saw an England player slicing through a defence like he did in the second half? Twelvetrees is unlucky, but he is returning from injury and his competition just set a marker.

I would also start Care, Wood and Lawes, think Haskell is the most unlucky of the guys to be replaced by these three.

I would not start Manu on the wing, he made so much ground from the centre position despite the ABs generally not falling off him in the tackle. I would like to see Burrell and Manu given a go at some point as a partnership though

My team

Marler, Webber, Wilson
Lawes, Launchbury
Wood, Robshaw, Morgan
Care, Burns
Eastmond, Tuilagi
Yarde, Ashton, Brown

Bench - Hartley, Waller, Thomas/Sinckler, Attwood, B Vunipola, Youngs, Farrell, May

Really impressed with England here. Its not often you see the ABs dominated physically but that's a few times now this England side have taken it to them.

Fair play to the ABs though they just have that class and experience to score when they need to.

However I think the way things are going the ABs will have struggle on their hands to hang on as top dogs and retain the RWC. England will be serious challengers.

A few thoughts:
- The AP finalists have been in the country since last Weds and will be able to train fully all this week. That gives them a good run-up to be ready
- Lancaster will pick a side based on how it goes in training and he won't make any bones about making changes. The squad know that a) there is now a big pool of players who've shown they can play at the highest level; b) the coaches are not afraid to give people a chance when the opportunity presents itself; but c) selection will be based on performance over a period, performance in training and finding the right combos.
- I would hope that if Manu does go to the wing, Yarde stays on the other wing. I think Manu and Ashton might be too much of a change for one game and could leave Brown exposed trying to cover for both. Yarde went very well defensively on Sat
- The rationale for bringing both Burrell and Twelvetrees back in would be to get the two sided attack we had at the end of the 6N going. In that scenario, I have no problem with Manu being on the wing. A setup where from any given ruck the ball you could see Morgan, Robshaw or Care attacking round the fringes and, say, Farrell feeding Burrell and Manu or Twelvetrees feeding Brown and Yarde would give any side something to think about.

Just because he has the ability to play wing doesn't mean he should, play there up against the NZ wingers which TBH with Savea and smith are the best in the world which would in defence prob lead to him being out of position too much, an underrated part of his game is his breakdown work sometimes I think he gets to involved in the breakdown but he makes an affect, 

 I'm still not 100% convinced with Twelevetrees against the likes of NZ, SA or Aus.

 and Burrell is certainly good enough to play 12 in international rugby considering he IS the form 12 in the league for the team that won the League, Burrell has play more times at 12 than he has 13.

Manu made on Saturday made 3 passes, 14 runs for 84 meters.2 offloads
Manu in 2012 against NZ @ home in 2012 made 6 passes 12 runs for 96 Meters  3 offloads

Twelevetrees against NZ @ home in 2013 made 4 passes, 13 Runs for 55 Meters 1 offload
Twelevetrees against Aus @ home in 2013 made 1 pass, 3 runs for 11 Meters 0 offloads
 
 Why put someone with a proven track record against NZ @ 13 on the wing?
 
 I mean Twelevetrees against the SH top 3 hasn't looked great, and I think Burrell offers just as much at 12 and should be put there.
 
 If your going to try Manu on the wing it should be for 40 mins against a mid week team or against someone like Italy etc, why because what's the point in potentially knocking a players confidence against the best in the world just for some experiment that may or may not work.

I really hope Stewie has got this ‘universal rugby player’ shoite out of his system – I think he’s learnt that, particularly at test level, Wood is flanker not a no 8, Lawes is a lock and not a flanker, Brown is a FB not a winger, and T Youngs is a centre not a hooker (ok, only joking with the last one). Nor is it a case of simply finding a place on the field for what he thinks are his 15 best rugby players. But it is about good competition for places and selection of the right combinations.

I can see the virtue of a 12T/Burrell midfield – but in this case Manu would have to come off the bench as an impact player, not start on the wing where he’ll be twiddling his thumbs and then get caught out of position (we’ve already got May to fulfil that role). I’m a bit wary of using a NZ tour to work out who the 1st choice XV is though – I think SL has been a bit slow in sorting this out in the past, particularly in the midfield.

SL now has the dilemma of sticking with the side that played well (his usual strategy) or re-assembling his original 1st choice based primarily on the last 6N. Personally I’d bring in Lawes, Wood and Care – as players you’d really expect to improve the current team, and strengthen the bench (but keep Cips). For the 3rd test I might also be looking at swopping May for Ashton.

I really hope Webber retains his place. I thought his work rate around the field and solidity at the set pace was superb. He is such a throw back to the amateur era of rugby- with his head band, rough look, and slightly middle-heavy build. His work at the breakdown and in contact was tireless. I'd bring Hartley onto the bench, but let him know that he isn't just a shoe-in now he's back, by starting Webber again.

Marler was simply sublime. What a player he's developing into. The scrums were owned by him, Webber, and Wilson. I think he's first choice now. I don't care what sort of carrying power Mako brings, Marler for me is the real deal. Corbisiero's obviously up there, but he needs transporting in cotton wool.

Poor Davey Wilson. If he'd remembered to wipe the vaseline off his hands after smothering his ears, he'd have had a terrific game. As it stands, his poor handling was offset by his superb scrummaging.

Parling was very good. Launchbury had a poor game by his own standards, but god damn, Cruden's restarts were brilliant. England need to look at that this week in training, and try to nullify Retallick's influence in that regard.

Youngs was decent, but that mistake leading to Yarde's yellow overshadows his game. Care in for me.

Burns to start with Faz on the bench. Burns had an excellent game. Kicking from hand and tee was spot on, and I can only remember his putting it out once on the full. His tackling was as courageous as I've seen from a fly half. He shackled larger players and most importantly, got them to ground. Farrell is physical but goes way too high on large guys. I like the way Burns just focused on felling them and letting the support compete for the ball.

Contrary to what I'm reading, I thought May was good. A nervous start but grew into the game and single handedly earned us 3 points (should have been 3 points and a yellow card for NZ). I'd keep him. He thrives on confidence and really looked like he was getting comfortable in the second half.

Wood to start at 6, and Haskell on the bench covering backrow. I think Vunipola just needs a longer rest after a demoralising end of season. Haskell's performance warrants another cap this saturday.

Agree Webber was very good and with hartley just returning from injury it makes sense to have him on the bench, although to me he is clearly first choice with Webber fighting it out with Youngs. I think even when/if Corbisiero comes back Marler would be first choice for me.

A couple of big questions for Lancaster to answer for me is Parling and Haskell despite having very good games are going to make way for Lawes and Wood, do they offer as much coming from the bench as Attwood and Vunipola/Morgan? For me they don't so harsh as it is I would drop them out of the squad. I have full faith in whatever Lancaster goes with though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Agree Webber was very good and with hartley just returning from injury it makes sense to have him on the bench, although to me he is clearly first choice with Webber fighting it out with Youngs. I think even when/if Corbisiero comes back Marler would be first choice for me.

A couple of big questions for Lancaster to answer for me is Parling and Haskell despite having very good games are going to make way for Lawes and Wood, do they offer as much coming from the bench as Attwood and Vunipola/Morgan? For me they don't so harsh as it is I would drop them out of the squad. I have full faith in whatever Lancaster goes with though.

I agree with you a lot here. Wales 2013 seems as long time ago now, and that was the last time my confidence in him was shaken. Since then it has been exponential. I love the way the players now play when they're in the England shirt, and the way they conduct themselves off the field. It's finally restored some honour in the red rose again.

Lancaster and his coaching staff have really got a selection headache now. Wood and Lawes returning are probably the two biggest, since Parling and Lawes both played very well. But I do love Attwood off the bench. I'm glad i'm not SL this week!

Think NZ really missed Savea last weekend. Jane didn't go looking for it and the back three were strangely off colour under the high ball. Savea's got four tries from two tests against the English and his go forward and X factor will make a big difference if he plays. He looks for work and takes a lot of pressure off the forwards if they're struggling to make the gain line.

Hansen referred to the ABs minds as being cluttered. It's a credit to England's defence that he was maybe trying to overthink and overcomplicate things. Of course the direct route involves the least thought but against a team as physical as England it'd be digging your own grave to go into battle with them. NZ aren't as strong as England. They're more skilful and aerobically fitter-you can see that they do start to get on top of England in the last 15 minutes. So you can see why people are having a pop at England taking their time before set pieces.

Hansen has to be proactive with Cruden. Barrett's the form 10 in NZ and if Cruden is misfiring I say pull him at halftime.

Messam is under the microscope as if Read is fit Kaino should start. Kaino kept us in the game physically. Vito made an impact on the bench but I'm still unsure if he's got the presence to ruffle the men in white.

For England-to put Tuilagi on the wing would be folly IMO. More action close up and more involvement. He demands scrutiny and it was testament to Conrad Smith's defence that he didn't create havoc. Conrad cleaned an unbelievable amount of crap from NZ. Burns played and kicked bloody well but didn't really offer a running threat-think Farrell runs a bit more so would have Burns on the bench. Lawes is a bit loose sometimes but I love his style of play and Parling should be on the bench-hard done by I know but you need someone with Lawes' athleticism to combat NZ. I dunno about May-I got the feeling he could well be made into a liability.

Love that both sides have so much room for improvement. NZ's passing and catching was rubbish for their standards and I think a lot of chances failed to come about due to this. Hansen will drill them with handling stuff this week I reckon and I think it will be much better and bring NZ's multidimensional attack into the game. We all know how England is going to get better-it's up to the NZ forwards to cope with it. I didn't think the NZ scrum was that bad on Sat-but they still need work.

Rather then move Tuilagi to the wing, why doesn't Eastmond go there? He played wing against Argentina, has the step and pace to cut it up with the added space he may find.

That means we could go with:

9. Care
10. Burns
11. Eastmond
12. Burrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton/Yarde
15. Brown

On the Ashton/Yarde front; i'd be tempted if Savea is coming back to play Yarde for his added power, if not i'd perhaps give Ashton a go.

Burns would I'm sure enjoy having the two big power players outside him to support him, especially with Burrell's soft hands and Tuilagi's good running lines.

I just hope we dont bring back all the 'A' teamer and then get humped...

I do expect to see:

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Wilson
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Billy / Morgan

9 Care
10 Farrell

11 Yarde
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

I think the "Manu to wing" idea is a red herring, or at least sort of. SL is very short of experienced wings/FBs in the squad, so once the game is 50 mins old expect Ashton/May/Yarde whichever is playing to go off, Burrell/Eastmond to come on and Manu to be switched to the wing.

Whilst a number of the players who came in played very well, it is worth noting they weren't replacing the others due to a lack of form. So whilst a good performance should retain the shirt, those that have proven on perhaps more occasions that they are capable of playing for England should not be overlooked due to administrative processes. As the 2nd test is a must win I fully expect SL to revert to norm and put out a side that very closely mirrors the Italy game. For me he'll go with:
Marler, Webber, Wilson, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola, Care, Farrell, May, 36, Tuilagi, Yarde and Brown with Hartley (fitness grounds stopping a start), Mullan, Thomas, Attwood, Morgan, Youngs, Burns and Foden on the bench.

Of course it depends who is fit aswell

Is Twelvetrees and Hartley definately going to have recoevered? If not then they dont play.

Billy has put his body through the mill in the two finals, Farrell looks drained...if they're not showing intraining then they dont start.

Training will tell everything Stuart needs to know.

As far as the selection of the AP players goes I think it's about moving the philosophy and the expectation forwards in the group as a whole.

Yes the performance was excellent in parts in T1, particularly given the fact some players were well down the pecking order. Nonetheless it's a game we should've won.

Selecting the AP players for T2 sends two messages. Firstly, that there's a bit of loyalty going around which is no bad thing sometimes. Secondly, that however great the task we can put ourselves in a position to win the game. If that's the case we need to deliver that win as a group. Second best gets no prizes.

Now i'd make a case for severall players retaining their shirt but I can understand if some of them don't do so.

As far as moving Tuilagi to the wing I think it's a mistake. He has more impact at centre and needs to develop a partnership there. Bearing in mind he's yet to play with 36!

If he does go to wing I expect it'll be Yarde that misses out. Like it or not I don't think you can have an 11/13/14 combination that can't kick. Yarde is not a good kicker of the ball and May is the only decent option at wing in that regard.

Don't like the Tuilagi move to the wing. You blunt what he can offer as a player able to bust tackles inside. A player on the wing is easier to bring out of play than in the centre of the park. The problem with Saturday is that Tuilagi made the bust and didn't have players shadowing him to continue the line break. Ok sure he's powerful and can bust a tackle close to the line to finish but without his presence in midfield you don't have as much go forward in Burrell.
Sure Tuilagi can track inside and create havoc in open play but how many opportunities did Yarde or May get like that and how familiar is he playing at wing? NZ will love to isolate him out on the wing and negate a huge midfield threat. I like Burrell as a player but he's nowhere near the handful Manu is and I think it's a gamble that doesn't need to be made. so naturally I'm hoping SL makes the switch...

can someone explain to me why Haskell seems to be dropped by all the media, when he made nearly twice as many tackles as the second highest tackler for England, (13 Robshaw 2nd with 7) and made the 2nd most turnovers.

 If NZ have a back row of Kaino, Mccaw and Read then I would want Englands top tackler there to try and stop Kaino and Read at source.

Because Wood is the better player and first choice 6.

I thought Read was out for the foreseeable future because of repeated concussions?

Surely the ABs aren't recalling him?

The team went really well on Saturday with some strong individual performances, and (as shown by all the posts on here) it puts Lancaster in a really tricky position re: selection, which is no bad thing.

For my money I would make the following changes:

1. Bring Hartley onto the bench.
2. Switch Parling for Lawes in the starting XV.
3. Bring Billy V onto the bench in place of Johnson.
4. Switch Youngs with Care in the XV, moving Youngs onto the bench.
5. Switch Farrell and Burns (provided SL is satisfied that Farrell is 100% fit). Leaving Cipriani on the bench though.
6. Switch May and Ashton in the XV.
7. Put Burrell on the bench.

I think that strikes the right balance between continuity and bringing in fresh players. You can make a strong cases for other changes though, but I just think players like Haskell and Eastmond played so well, that it would be wrong to immediately replace them.

bluestonevedder wrote:I thought Read was out for the foreseeable future because of repeated concussions?

Surely the ABs aren't recalling him?

From what has been said I would be surprised to see him back for now. Even if he was playing he would surely be very rusty.

As opposed to the well oiled performance of the rest of the All Blacks?

disneychilly wrote:As opposed to the well oiled performance of the rest of the All Blacks?

Maybe they werent allowed to play like a well oiled team

lostinwales wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I thought Read was out for the foreseeable future because of repeated concussions?

Surely the ABs aren't recalling him?

From what has been said I would be surprised to see him back for now. Even if he was playing he would surely be very rusty.

My impression was that NZ are quite worried about Reid's recent concussions, and he'd be lucky to return for any of the tests. Maybe I just got that wrong.

They do miss him though- so many of our kicks landed in areas he would usually occupy. I don't think Kaino is a natural 8. He's a brilliant 6, but not an 8. When Reid returns, Messam should be worried as Kaino will be breathing down his neck for that shirt!

From what I heard about Read from some NZers is that he is about 25/75 to come back for the 2nd test, but should be likely to play in the 3rd test.

 Also sounds like many want Vito to be given a go at 8 and Kaino at 6 is Read is out.

 Makes sense as Vito is a extremely good ball carrier and fills the Read role more. in the attacking terms

Poorfour wrote:Yarde didn't get much chance in attack, but I thought his defence was very strong. Even the yellow was a necessary evil.

Really?

I think he defends far too narrow - NZ just didn't exploit it - they wont make the same mistake a second time.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Yarde didn't get much chance in attack, but I thought his defence was very strong. Even the yellow was a necessary evil.

Really?

I think he defends far too narrow - NZ just didn't exploit it - they wont make the same mistake a second time.

Its entirely possible they will, or at least try to, as they are a smart team. However I do believe England will continue to apply a great deal of pressure and the AB's wont have many chances to force the result of the game.

Welly wrote:From what I heard about Read from some NZers is that he is about 25/75 to come back for the 2nd test, but should be likely to play in the 3rd test.

 Also sounds like many want Vito to be given a go at 8 and Kaino at 6 is Read is out.

 Makes sense as Vito is a extremely good ball carrier and fills the Read role more. in the attacking terms

Ah thanks Welly, I didn't realise he was projected to be back.

I was impressed with Vito's appearance off the bench. He hit the ball at pace every time and made good, hard ground.

lostinwales wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Yarde didn't get much chance in attack, but I thought his defence was very strong. Even the yellow was a necessary evil.

Really?

I think he defends far too narrow - NZ just didn't exploit it - they wont make the same mistake a second time.

Its entirely possible they will, or at least try to, as they are a smart team. However I do believe England will continue to apply a great deal of pressure and the AB's wont have many chances to force the result of the game.

England defend narrow. That is Farrell senior's defensive setup. They defend narrow and the outside backs push up to try and cut off attacks. It has risks but overall it works.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Welly wrote:From what I heard about Read from some NZers is that he is about 25/75 to come back for the 2nd test, but should be likely to play in the 3rd test.

 Also sounds like many want Vito to be given a go at 8 and Kaino at 6 is Read is out.

 Makes sense as Vito is a extremely good ball carrier and fills the Read role more. in the attacking terms

Ah thanks Welly, I didn't realise he was projected to be back.

I was impressed with Vito's appearance off the bench. He hit the ball at pace every time and made good, hard ground.

 That's what I heard from NZ way.

Vito is an out and out 8 and Kaino is a WC 6 would make sense to play them there esp after an average game from Messam.

 Doubt Morgan could run the blindside often with Kaino there.

Exiledinborders wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Yarde didn't get much chance in attack, but I thought his defence was very strong. Even the yellow was a necessary evil.

Really?

I think he defends far too narrow - NZ just didn't exploit it - they wont make the same mistake a second time.

Its entirely possible they will, or at least try to, as they are a smart team. However I do believe England will continue to apply a great deal of pressure and the AB's wont have many chances to force the result of the game.

England defend narrow. That is Farrell senior's defensive setup. They defend narrow and the outside backs push up to try and cut off attacks. It has risks but overall it works.

Not arguing, just wanted to point out that whatever the AB's try to do, there will be another team out there aiming and able to stop them. I know there is a history with the AB's just making a couple of tweaks and then turning close games into slaughter but it is not a given by any means.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

disneychilly wrote:As opposed to the well oiled performance of the rest of the All Blacks?

Maybe they werent allowed to play like a well oiled team

They were well stifled, but the amount of unforced errors NZ committed indicated that they were guilty of shooting themselves in the foot as much as England were of pulling the trigger.

Same with England; both sides are likely to get better.