What went wrong with England?

First topic message reminder :

How has our WC turned into such a nightmare?

I believe not having Ashley Cole in the squad left us with no alternatives to Baines who has looked poor all tournament.

The central defence looked very poor. Jagielka is just not good enough at this level and also he was coming back from injury. I believe JT should have been in the squad.

Tactical decisions cost us. At half-time when we were 1-1 with Italy why not substitute Rooney for Milner who offers more protection on the flank? It was so obvious Italy if they did score, and they did would make it happen down rooney's wing as he just was not protecting Baines.

Why did steven gerrard play the full 90mins in both games?? he hasn't got the legs to do that and we really could have used someone like OX or Wilshire coming on.

I also think it was a horrible decision to play sterling on the wing in the 2nd game so that we could accomodate rooney in the middle. Sterling was the best layer on the pitch in the first game behind the striker so why move him? It cost us against Uruguay as Sterling looked poor on the wing.

Things do not look good for the England national team for Euro 2016 as we look to have gone backwards.

A loss to Costa Rica would mean 3 defeats in 3 games and would signal just how bad we are.

How did we just go from England not being good enough because their players are too happy to get paid to sit on the bench, to England not being good enough because they aren't willing enough to go to big clubs and sit on the bench?

Remember that Stella and West when your wondering why our players can't compete with the big boys.

SR summed it up nicely too but the other thing is that there would have been nothing stopping Ince jetting off to Italy to learn a bit more of the game for a season or 2 and then coming back, a club like Hull would still be waiting and would still take him.

Shock Horror though, he could have gone to Inter, learnt a hell of a lot, become a better player for it and maybe one of the big boys would come knocking.

The lack of ambition in some of our players is embarassing.

@Lowland Brit
Tom Ince has a big opportunity to go and ply his trade in a country where football is played a little bit differently. Even if he sits on the bench he's going to learn to read the game a bit differently etc. He'll be expected by Inter and their fans to pull his socks up and do his best which will ultimately make him a better player.

Our players only know the English way of playing, look at some of the other national teams and they've got players that have played all over the world.

You can learn by playing to.
 
Anyaway all different opinions.
He made his choice fair play to him and good luck.
 
Like I say as along as he doesn't score against us, then i will have hoped he had gone to Italy.

Derbymanc wrote:Remember that Stella and West when your wondering why our players can't compete with the big boys.

SR summed it up nicely too but the other thing is that there would have been nothing stopping Ince jetting off to Italy to learn a bit more of the game for a season or 2 and then coming back, a club like Hull would still be waiting and would still take him.

Shock Horror though, he could have gone to Inter, learnt a hell of a lot, become a better player for it and maybe one of the big boys would come knocking.

The lack of ambition in some of our players is embarassing.

@Lowland Brit
Tom Ince has a big opportunity to go and ply his trade in a country where football is played a little bit differently. Even if he sits on the bench he's going to learn to read the game a bit differently etc. He'll be expected by Inter and their fans to pull his socks up and do his best which will ultimately make him a better player.

Our players only know the English way of playing, look at some of the other national teams and they've got players that have played all over the world.

 
Sorry derby mate.
 
I'm not an England fan.
 
Support Ireland.
I can see where you are coming from.
Anyway thats that.

No player should ever move to a bigger club again then and risk a spell on the bench.

Ince could have looked no further than Paul Lambert.
Lambert was an ordinary player at Motherwell, probably could have signed for another Scottish team like Aberdeen or Hearts but got an offer from Borussia Dortmund of all teams, spent a season there, broke into the first team and won the Champions League,
returned a much better player, with different technique and different experience.

Ince is 22, he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by at least giving it a shot, instead he opts for "journeyman" status.

Ha ha, fair enough West, that's why you want him to go to at hull

GSC, I'd prefer some of our younger players to stop moving over the show just to warm a premier league bench that says you probably won't end up first team anyway (Lascalles should stay with Forest for that very reason)

I'd just like our younger players to show a bit more ambition and drive to play in other places. You look at the Premier League and see or young talent being scooped up and left in the reserves or stagnating away. Go over to Italy/Spain/Germany/France etc etc, show your skills over there and maybe flourish into a better player. Look at someone like Owen Hargreaves.

If Arsenal came in for Lascelles then I'd want him to go and challenge (albeit he isn't ready yet and would likely be loaned back to us). No point him going to QPR which is a minor step up and has resembled a car crash recently.

Derbymanc wrote:Remember that Stella and West when your wondering why our players can't compete with the big boys.

SR summed it up nicely too but the other thing is that there would have been nothing stopping Ince jetting off to Italy to learn a bit more of the game for a season or 2 and then coming back, a club like Hull would still be waiting and would still take him.

Shock Horror though, he could have gone to Inter, learnt a hell of a lot, become a better player for it and maybe one of the big boys would come knocking.

The lack of ambition in some of our players is embarassing.

@Lowland Brit
Tom Ince has a big opportunity to go and ply his trade in a country where football is played a little bit differently. Even if he sits on the bench he's going to learn to read the game a bit differently etc. He'll be expected by Inter and their fans to pull his socks up and do his best which will ultimately make him a better player.

Our players only know the English way of playing, look at some of the other national teams and they've got players that have played all over the world.

I said I would have gone. I agree with SR regarding moving abroad. I was just stating the fact that moving to Inter isn't as big a deal as it would have been 10 years ago.

btw

Where's the proof he would have become a better player. Remember Des Walker? Came back from Italy a worse player.

GSC wrote:No player should ever move to a bigger club again then and risk a spell on the bench.

Of course they should, the potential that eevry space is up for grabs, and that you have to work hard to gain and retain that spot should be incentive enough to work hard and continue improving. Where is the incentive if your name is already on the team sheet.

Hull City, a team that finished 4 points off relegation versus the opportunity to try and break into a team that finished 5th in Serie A.

Ince is also only 22, he's no right to expect first team football, and to do so is arrogant and embarrassing and symptomatic of a complete lack of ambition. When he finishes his career do you think he'll be happy he spent his career at no-mark teams or do you think he will regret at least not even trying to see if he was good enough for a team like Inter.

They always say footballers have no brains, easy to see why.

Stella, no one is saying he's guaranteed to come back a better player, but at 22 when a team like Inter come in for you, surely you owe it to yourself as a professional sports person to see if you can and take a risk?

What has he got to lose?

Madrid didn't work for Owen or Woodgate really, although McManaman did well, but at least these guys tried.

@GSC

I'd see QPR as a sideways step, unless they get their debts sorted I can see them 'doing a portsmouth' in the not too distant future.

@Stella
There's no guarantee he'd become better but as I said it would be nice to see the ambition there (Plus it's always good to see a Home Grown player do well in a different league).

For the life of me I cannot see why anyone would pick Hull over Inter unless he's a rabid Hull fan. If it was Chievlo or someone like that I could understand it.

Has anyone ever been to Hull? It's a toilet, granted, Milan is not exactly Copenhagen or Florence, but can you imagine playing Burnley at Hull on a wet January evening instead of the Milan derby in the San Siro.

What's the matter with him?

"Here Tom, I've got an offer for you, I've got two women here, Vanessa Feltz and Charlize Theron, you can shag Vanessa Feltz every night, but unless you're really good and are willing to work hard and improve you only get to shag Theron once a week"

"Right gaffer, sounds like Feltz is the one for me"

super_realist wrote:

GSC wrote:No player should ever move to a bigger club again then and risk a spell on the bench.

Of course they should, the potential that eevry space is up for grabs, and that you have to work hard to gain and retain that spot should be incentive enough to work hard and continue improving. Where is the incentive if your name is already on the team sheet.

Hull City, a team that finished 4 points off relegation versus the opportunity to try and break into  a team that finished 5th  in Serie A.

Ince is also only 22, he's no right to expect first team football, and to do so is arrogant and embarrassing and symptomatic of a complete lack of ambition. When he finishes his career do you think he'll be happy he spent his career at no-mark teams or do you think he will regret at least not even trying to see if he was good enough for a team like Inter.

They always say footballers have no brains, easy to see why.

I think GSC was being sarcastic.

super_realist wrote:Has anyone ever been to Hull? It's a toilet, granted, Milan is not exactly Copenhagen or Florence, but can you imagine playing Burnley at Hull on a wet January evening instead of the Milan derby in the San Siro.

What's the matter with him?

 
Proper footballers
 
Not that pansy stuff, we dont like to play in the rain 

I can only imagine that Inter either pulled the plug or he failed a medical, I can't imagine anyone, even someone as thick as a stereotypical footballer turning down an opportunity like that.

Derbymanc wrote:@Lowland Brit
Tom Ince has a big opportunity to go and ply his trade in a country where football is played a little bit differently. Even if he sits on the bench he's going to learn to read the game a bit differently etc. He'll be expected by Inter and their fans to pull his socks up and do his best which will ultimately make him a better player.

Our players only know the English way of playing, look at some of the other national teams and they've got players that have played all over the world.

I'm not saying the Ince decision isn't strange, but either the general problem is young players not playing enough, or not being willing to move to big clubs and sit on the bench. You can't have it both ways.

Yes you can,

If he goes abroad to a top Italian team like Inter who can attract good Italian players and a decent manager that knows the Italian game then he can learn a different type of football. (From memory the Italian league is a lot more defensively minded than the PL.) He's also putting himself in the shop window for a bigger club in other leagues because if he does well it shows he can adapt well.

If he sits on the bench at say Man Utd, he's going to continue to learn a type of football he'll already be familiar with and therefore won't be learning as much.

There's also the shock horror revelation that could be he excels at the Italian way of playing and starts to morph into a World Class player (I know we're not used to English World Class

It's a massive opportunity for him that might not come up again whereas the opportunity to play for Hull would still be there in 2 years time.

Of course we don't know anything about what goes on behind the scenes - Perhaps Ince was unhappy at the setup at Inter, or felt that at this stage of his career it was not a good fit for what he wanted. At least by moving to Hull he's moved up a level and is likely to be seen as a key player for them rather than a peripheral figure. Two good seasons and he could still look to develop further by moving abroad.

Bigger criticism should go to the likes of Micah Richards, who has been happy to just sit on Man City's bench for the last couple of years and cash the pay check. A guy that should have been challenging for the England right back slot, but hasn't done anything to improve himself as a player for several years.

There are several issues that have been touched on, regarding the EPL and development of English players:
1 - Many club owners would rather buy a 26 year old foreigner who will do a decent job 'out of the box' rather than risk developing a 20 year old out of their academy.
2 - Those young players who do make the EPL grade often do seem to rest on their laurels once they are on decent money.
3 - Our style of play is based on athleticism and some individual brilliance, and we don't have many teams that are better than the sum of their parts. Something that carries over to the international level - England's first choice XI is better on a player for player basis than many of the teams that made the last 16 or last 8 of the WC, but does not play as a good team (can also argue about balance and tactical awareness). The likes of Costa Rica or Chile (and even Germany at a much higher level) show how important it is that the players have fully bought into the team ethos, and that the strength of the team is greater than the strength of the individuals.

Lowlandbrit wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:@Lowland Brit
Tom Ince has a big opportunity to go and ply his trade in a country where football is played a little bit differently. Even if he sits on the bench he's going to learn to read the game a bit differently etc. He'll be expected by Inter and their fans to pull his socks up and do his best which will ultimately make him a better player.

Our players only know the English way of playing, look at some of the other national teams and they've got players that have played all over the world.

I'm not saying the Ince decision isn't strange, but either the general problem is young players not playing enough, or not being willing to move to big clubs and sit on the bench. You can't have it both ways.

Not playing would only be part of the issue, he would most likely be learning a lot more in training, from coaches and managers and in making the effort to get into the team, playing in reserves etc than simply playing for a team as uninspiring and unsuited to making the International Football transition as Hull "Tigers"

I'm not saying Ince could be or is the future of English International Football, probably he isn't, but one things for sure, if he sticks to making decisions like joining Hull he's unlikely to be, and it says a lot about the lack of confidence, lack of humbleness, lack of flexibility and sheer complacency of English players to cultivate a journeyman career instead of taking what is only a temporary risk and going somewhere that just might make him a better player.
Has anyone really become a better technical/tactical player once they've signed for Hull?

I'm not sure I buy into English teams focussing on Atheticism either, as I don't see anything which has English/British teams as being any better in that department than any other. It seems to me in terms of skill, technique, fitness, tactics etc British teams are simply 10-15% less good than other nations.
Another argument that irks is that players are "better, player for player" completely irrelevant. Football is a team game. You see it in other sports, specifically Ryder Cup where the American's are almost always better on paper, but how often do they win.
Sports are not played on paper

super_realist wrote: I'm not sure I buy into English teams focussing on Atheticism either, as I don't see anything which has English/British teams as being any better in that department than any other. It seems to me in terms of skill, technique, fitness, tactics etc British teams are simply 10-15% less good than other nations.

Athleticism isn't quite the right term. Rather, our game is more physical/ all-action. Players who aren't tough enough, or aren't able to play at a high tempo, struggle in the EPL.

At a club level, I don't think British teams are 10-15% less skillful than other nations. However, we do rely on imported players to dictate play, because British players lack the skill/ tactical discipline to do so. It's why Lampard and Gerrard could never play together.

The main problem with England's national team is that all their players are English.

I'll say it until I'm blue in the face but the main reason for England's continued poor international record is down to how kids at the very basic levels are taught.

Go to Holland, Germany or Spain and as soon as a 6 year old turns up for training he's given a ball to himself at his feet. He learns how different parts of his feet move the ball differently, how to move with the ball, how to protect it, how to anticipate the movement of others and being aware of threats.

A six year old in England turns up for training and plays 20 minutes of Bulldog, then lines up with the rest of the kids to take shots for another 20 minutes before a 20 minute game that's usually just split into two teams of whoevers there, often resulting in 8 or 9 a side where the ball pings about pinball style amongst a scrum before the most powerful kid escapes and scores a goal.

It cost 10x as much to train to Grade A coaching in England as it does in Spain.
There are 10x as many decent coaches in Germany/Spain as there are in England.

Until the FA fully address the way children learn the game and invest heavily in both coaching and all weather pitches then we shall always be light years behind.

Exactly what Hero says.

My lil lad and girl do football training on a saturday. There's 3 or 4 kids that are clearly above everyone else and can walk through the other players, They're learning nothing (other than one of them can cry the loudest when he doesn't score/get man of the match). While the other kids are learning not to worry about playing cause there's always one player that's brilliant and can do it all   

Tbh I think its a mixture of many things, Heros point included. You aren't going to convince me Costa Rica is packed with quality youth coaches.

The usual mantra of England is that they go out to the first top team they play, in there group they had 2 top teams and a minnow having a worldy, doesn't it stand to reason things played out the way it should

Hero wrote:I'll say it until I'm blue in the face but the main reason for England's continued poor international record is down to how kids at the very basic levels are taught.

Go to Holland, Germany or Spain and as soon as a 6 year old turns up for training he's given a ball to himself at his feet. He learns how different parts of his feet move the ball differently, how to move with the ball, how to protect it, how to anticipate the movement of others and being aware of threats.

A six year old in England turns up for training and plays 20 minutes of Bulldog, then lines up with the rest of the kids to take shots for another 20 minutes before a 20 minute game that's usually just split into two teams of whoevers there, often resulting in 8 or 9 a side where the ball pings about pinball style amongst a scrum before the most powerful kid escapes and scores a goal.

It cost 10x as much to train to Grade A coaching in England as it does in Spain.
There are 10x as many decent coaches in Germany/Spain as there are in England.

Until the FA fully address the way children learn the game and invest heavily in both coaching and all weather pitches then we shall always be light years behind.

Agree with all of that. I believe it's starting to change now, but looking back on when I played as a kid, we definitely should have been playing with smaller balls, on smaller pitches, with fewer players per side. Using inappropriate equipment ensures that football becomes a contest of physical attributes, rather than skill. It's no surprise that children born in the first few months of the school year are massively over-represented among EPL footballers.

Basic coaching.

Make the A and Pro licences cheaper and more accessible Whats the cost? 5K? Ok for an ex pro but for the average Joe off the street? Also, stop the old boys network for current and ex players at these courses. Story was that Dean Saunders turned up at a Pro course with his notes in a carrier bag but flew through it by knowing the instructor!
It seems during the WC, Roy told the players the formation, a pep talk and thats it. Players still need coaching, even at this level. There's a great clip on Youtube of Pep Guardiola training his Bayern team. Speaking perfect German and taking the players through a routine, where they should be, what runs to make etc but also how to control the ball and the body angles and such. All to seasoned international pros!
Living in Swansea, Ive seen the Swans go from lower league cloggers to a superb possession passing team with the same players going from league two and one. All through proper basic coaching. How hard can it be?

Breadvan wrote:It seems during the WC, Roy told the players the formation, a pep talk and thats it. Players still need coaching, even at this level. There's a great clip on Youtube of Pep Guardiola training his Bayern team. Speaking perfect German and taking the players through a routine, where they should be, what runs to make etc but also how to control the ball and the body angles and such. All to seasoned international pros!

I agree coaching needs to be taken more seriously at every level, but I'm not sure using Roy Hodgson, a man who's coached in more than half a dozen countries, as the example of English isolationism is the best place to start.

Got to be some middle ground here.

Many a class player and great team over the years without elite coaching from 6 years old.

You can as easily coach the ability out of a child that age, but if you wait until they are 10 or 11 they won't listen and will just want to play games/shoot.

A lot of the times it's not the coaches but the parents that are a problem.

We had some start a whole new team to shoehorn their kids into games after being told that the children weren't mature enough.

Our Coach was worried about coming to see us as he wasn't recommending my 2 for the under 8's squad yet. He thought we were going to go mad but his reasoning was sound.

We need to implement more training and teaching at a younger age before moving up to proper games (non-competitive or otherwise.)

The question posed at the beginning is "What went wrong with England?"

In reality, nothing, it's not like they were going to do well and they just failed to turn up, it's not like anyone got an injury or they had bad luck or weren't good enough when it came to penalties, the simple answer which is the same for every other team that went out at that stage is not that something went wrong, but that they simply aren't good enough.

Getting out of the group was never a given, and finishing bottom was always a possibility, especially in a South American tournament, so although there is plenty wrong with English/British football, nothing specific went wrong at all.

The question probably should not be "what went wrong with England?" but "What could they do next time to make an acceptable level of progress"

what went wrong for England? not much, really. Hodgson got his tactics/selections wrong in the Uruguay game, it was a tough group, a couple of moments didn't go England's way in the first couple of games (which were pretty even really).

Ultimately though England have neither the quality throughout their team like Germany or even France say, do, nor the one stand-out player who can drag his team through tough moments like Suarez, Robben or Messi have done at times.

What can be done to improve this? I see people bringing out the "England players don't play abroad enough", and this does have some merit. However, it could also be aimed at Italy and, to a lesser extent, Spain (though not so much over the last few years maybe) and Germany. Of course, the thing about those teams is that their top clubs are mostly made up of home-grown talent, with maybe the odd foreigner. Top clubs in England aren't: Liverpool (who've only had one good year) have 5 English players in their first choice XI; and that's easily the most of any top club: Chelsea have two with another two in and around the squad, Man City have Hart, United have three or four, Arsenal have one or two. And so on it goes. You don't have that in Italy, Germany or Spain (Real being maybe the exception).

So for me rather than just being a question of players not going abroad, it's a question of English players not having/creating enough opportunities to play in a really high quality environment (top club), be that at home or abroad.

Bayern are a pretty cosmopolitan mix of nationalities.

As above, nothing went wrong for England, they switched off against Italy at the start of the second half, got caught and then some poor finishing did for them at the other end.

Re Gerrard, personally, I think he's expecting the Uruguay player to get that punt forward from the goalie and makes a half hearted jump. If he commits himself, he heads the ball clear, if he doesn't bother jumping the ball goes over his head but not through to Suarez.

Bad idea from Hodgson to pander to Rooney and move Sterling out wide to accommodate him. My only hope is that the English media and fans finally understand that Rooney is not a big game player on the international stage and stop pinning their hopes on him. Hopefully he'll retire in two years when Van Gaal starts him on the bench and no-one is interested in signing a 31 year old who expects to be paid £200k a week.

Nothing went wrong for England. I didnt think they played that bad at all. Just the other teams defended better and took they're chances. England are way behind the likes of Germany, Holland and Argentina anyway so exiting the world cup at the group stages was always on the cards are they are simply just not good enough. Least you dont support Brazil though every cloud and that

48 years since England last won their only WC trophy, so far. A lot of time has passed and England have nothing to show for it but certain failure. People say it's down to the foreigners, if so then lets see the fa do something about it, which they probably won't!

Will the fa change their rigid training structure for a more fluid continental style, maybe or maybe not, it depends on the people behind the scenes. Will the old men retire for a younger generation of men and their, hopefully, better ideas? We can hope but don't hold your breath.

What will the fa do in terms of club policy of the youth in England? I doubt the England based clubs/EPL will bend over backwards for the sake of the countries youth.

The EPL portrays a care of business over others so unless a different model is brought in I doubt any swift change of direction.

These things speak volumes about a country. If they only care about business then England's screwed. I hear many say that the EPL is a product.............I agree with them.

Of course it's a product, but so is Serie A, Bundeliga and La Liga.

There's a chasm between also-ran British teams and actual, genuine tournament challengers, and there's a lot more than the league structure causing it.

British teams weren't exactly challengers prior to the Premier League.

DAVE667 wrote:As above, nothing went wrong for England, they switched off against Italy at the start of the second half, got caught and then some poor finishing did for them at the other end.

Re Gerrard, personally, I think he's expecting the Uruguay player to get that punt forward from the goalie and makes a half hearted jump. If he commits himself, he heads the ball clear, if he doesn't bother jumping the ball goes over his head but not through to Suarez.

Bad idea from Hodgson to pander to Rooney and move Sterling out wide to accommodate him. My only hope is that the English media and fans finally understand that Rooney is not a big game player on the international stage and stop pinning their hopes on him. Hopefully he'll retire in two years when Van Gaal starts him on the bench and no-one is interested in signing a 31 year old who expects to be paid £200k a week.

The problem is though, who else is there? Sturridge proved he wasn't ready for the big stage, Sterling is even less experienced and then there's Rickie Lambert. This year Rooney was the man to put our hopes on to score goals or at least show some kind of leadership to the younger players. But yes, I hope he isn't involved in 2016. We should have more options by then.

Riggs wrote:48 years since England last won their only WC trophy, so far. A lot of time has passed and England have nothing to show for it but certain failure. People say it's down to the foreigners, if so then lets see the fa do something about it, which they probably won't!

Will the fa change their rigid training structure for a more fluid continental style, maybe or maybe not, it depends on the people behind the scenes. Will the old men retire for a younger generation of men and their, hopefully, better ideas? We can hope but don't hold your breath.

What will the fa do in terms of club policy of the youth in England? I doubt the England based clubs/EPL will bend over backwards for the sake of the countries youth.  

The EPL portrays a care of business over others so unless a different model is brought in I doubt any swift change of direction.

These things speak volumes about a country. If they only care about business then England's screwed. I hear many say that the EPL is a product.............I agree with them.

Sadly, I think the FA can do "sweet FA" about it.

The Premier League is controlled independently and run by the boards of its member teams.

As long as our top clubs remain free to do as they please and buy in talent from overseas, our national team will continue to suffer.

Thats one thing you can't really criticise the FA for, as they have virtually no control over the PL. Plenty of other things we can hammer them about though...financial support and coaching for the lower pro leagues and amateur / grass-roots level football.

I don't even think something like excluding PL teams from the FA Cup would have that much of an impact, as SKY/BTs money is so much more important.

Maybe its about time we started picking future England squads from Championship teams?

Of course, before that, we'd need to implement an entirely different coaching ethos, which places emphasis on skill, intelligence, communication and situational awareness, instead of the "kick and rush" headless chicken stuff we see so often.

One of my favourite WC jokes is this:

Q. What's the difference between England and a tea bag?
A. The tea bag stays in the cup for longer.

Can someone give me or tell me what Greg Dyke is doing in terms of progressive football at the FA?

We're too slow and predicatable.

I like one of my wingers to be direct and have pace...Andros Townsend showed that players are scared of that. Arjan Robben for all i despise his diving theatrics is similar...he gets the ball and hes away like a rocket. Our guys sit and ponder which defender they're going to pass back to.

Our defenders are woeful....wheres the new Terry Butcher, Tony Adams, Martin Keown.

Rooney is not world class but is still a decent player. Move him away from being the playmaker...just the goal scorer....and get players to supply rooney and we might get a better return in the tournaments.

We need to play at more pace. Our league is the quickest in the world (apparently) so lets play at that pace.

dummy_half wrote:1 - Many club owners would rather buy a 26 year old foreigner who will do a decent job 'out of the box' rather than risk developing a 20 year old out of their academy.

I think this is a fallacy. The reason is because the 20 year old is not good enough. If they were Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Butt, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Rooney, Barkley, Rodwell, Hart, Sturridge, Michael Johnson, Gibbs, Cole, Wilshere, Walcott, Bale, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Shaw, Clyne, Ward-Prowse, Paul Robinson, Aaron Lennon, Alan Smith, Gary Kelly, Rio Ferndiand, Michael Carrick, Joe Cole, Frank Lampard, Defoe... they will get into squads and 1st teams.

Why would any owner want to pay millions for players if they can develop them for nothing? If we developed better players on a grander scale the number of foreigners would fall. (Would be helped by getting rid of quotas/ homegrown rules and reducing the value of English players). You are always going to have marquee signings

dummy_half wrote:2 - Those young players who do make the EPL grade often do seem to rest on their laurels once they are on decent money.

This is why I don't understand people calling for 6+5 quotas etc? We already guarantee these young players places on squads with the homegrown rule meaning they can site on the bench and count their money. If we guarantee them staring places why would they have to develop anymore? They will play anyway.

As I said on the other thread, let's stop mollycoddling these players. Let's reduce squad sizes, let's reduce the number of players any club can have signed on, let's scrap homegrown rules. Let's make English players realise that if they want success they are going to have to work for it.

dummy_half wrote:3 - Our style of play is based on athleticism and some individual brilliance, and we don't have many teams that are better than the sum of their parts. Something that carries over to the international level - England's first choice XI is better on a player for player basis than many of the teams that made the last 16 or last 8 of the WC, but does not play as a good team (can also argue about balance and tactical awareness). The likes of Costa Rica or Chile (and even Germany at a much higher level) show how important it is that the players have fully bought into the team ethos, and that the strength of the team is greater than the strength of the individuals.

Much of this comes from youth development and grassroots. We need more qualified coaches, especially in schools and we need to look at what and how we coach and develop kids. If the Netherlands, kids learn to play in different positions and different formations, in this country we pick whatever formation is in vogue usually 442 and pigeon hole kids in positions straight away.

We also need a chance is philosophy from kick and run to pass and move. When Spain domination possession football become the thing to do. The trouble is our coaches got kids passing in static squares and between cones. No movement. I used to watch my younger brothers train with qualified coaches and they did a few nice drills around cones but as soon as the game started it was hoof it up the the big guy upfront while the parents shout at everyone and all the kids play within 20 yards of each other.

How about the fact the players just are not good enough?

Too many people (in recent years) have mistaken success in Europe at club level as some sort of hallmark of strength of English football. It is NOT as the majority of those European successes were from clubs awash with a teamfull of largely foreign players.

Also we (everywhere in UK) keep getting fed how the EPL is so superb and hints dropped at being 'best league in the world' but lets remember that breeds satisfaction that everything is hunky dory in the English game which it clearly isn't.

There is not team ethic/spirit in the England squad to rival other international teams. Too many join up with the international squad with inflated egos massaged by the media and that does not make for either good spirit in the team or hampers that player to be able to integrate into a team ethic a la Germany.

Back to the original point and I really do not see quality in the England squad apart from one or two individuals which many many international teams can boast. Until clubs begin investing more in home-grown players I do not see this changing any time soon.

Are the beeb right in this article or just producing the usual bs again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28295153

I think Phil Neville is right. We need to keep the top flight foreigners...but get rid of all the lower standard journeymen foreigners.

These should be replaced by young English lads.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Phil Neville is right. We need to keep the top flight foreigners[b]...but get rid of all the lower standard journeymen foreigners. These should be replaced by young English lads

 
 
Bang on there.

But they are clearly better or cheaper than the young English lads...

CaledonianCraig wrote:How about the fact the players just are not good enough?

Too many people (in recent years) have mistaken success in Europe at club level as some sort of hallmark of strength of English football. It is NOT as the majority of those European successes were from clubs awash with a teamfull of largely foreign players.

Also we (everywhere in UK) keep getting fed how the EPL is so superb and hints dropped at being 'best league in the world' but lets remember that breeds satisfaction that everything is hunky dory in the English game which it clearly isn't

Most sensible post so far   

England still go into tournaments with the mentality that 'This is our year' and 'It's gonna be 1966 all over' just because Chelski won the Champions League, or Roooney is playing well for Man Utd or the Premiership is now richer than ever etc. when the grassroots level is suffering and England just do not have good enough players to keep up with the big boys

It's the same in Wales. While we havn't qualified since 1958 at least we have fallen short on many occasions and produced quite a few world class players. Now we don't even get a look in at the group stages and apart from the odd Giggs and Bale produce little world class players.

Scotland are the same. Here and there they would make the odd finals tournament or fall short of qualification at the last. Now like Wales they don't even get a look in anymore and produce even less players than us infact

The truth is British (and Irish) football is rubbish at the moment and England are just the best of a bad bunch and no excuses of where it went wrong are going to hide the fact that they just weren't good enough