Archie Moore vs RJJ

First topic message reminder :

Simple question.

Who wins when both fighters were at their peaks (whenever Moore's peak was).

I'd go for RJJ via close but decisive UD. His footwork would do it.

Some fine looking specimens in that video. I haven't forgotten.

HumanWindmill wrote:Rob, I hate to be a spoilsport, mate, but we aren't allowed to embed video or pictures. Could you edit your post to just include the link, please ?

Thanks.

Done and my apologises. Lucky i checked back here as was about to post an Archie Moore tribute.

Anyway, in the Roy video I posted he raps "People say I never fought nobody; I just make them look like nobody".

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That's your opinion that he would beat Hopkins again and it would be a close fight that the superior boxer in Hopkins would win

I bang on about his opposition because there's no precedent for him beating a great fighter at Light Heavyweight and Moore proved on many occassions he could deal with skill whereas did Jones ever prove he could deal with a hard punching, thinking fighter at the peak of his powers?

Of course its my opinion. Its your opinion you're fiven also. No version of Hop would get close to beating the best of RJJ. Even the washed version gave Hop a decent argument. And to say Hop is the superior boxer is simply laughable.

RJJ made his opposition look poor. More double standards again. I could drag up the plodding, crude HW champ and use your argument. No consistency.

WelshDevilRob wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Rob, I hate to be a spoilsport, mate, but we aren't allowed to embed video or pictures. Could you edit your post to just include the link, please ?

Thanks.

Done and my apologises. Lucky i checked back here as was about to post an Archie Moore tribute.

Anyway, in the Roy video I posted he raps "People say I never fought nobody; I just make them look like nobody".

Thanks, Rob, and no apology necessary, mate.

Y'all Musta Forgot!

You do provide me with some with laughs trying to take the moral high ground and failing badly each and every time

Hopkins proved himself to be the better boxer by beating each and every contender there was to beat at Middleweight which was something Jones failed to do and he arguably beat better fighters at Light Heavyweight albeit without the longevity. Then you have the cheek to suggest its laughable to rate Hopkins as the superior boxer, in my eyes speed isn't the be all and end all.

Jones fought generally poor opposition much in the same way Calzaghe did at Super Middleweight, didn't face any of his closest rivals during his peak years yet we have to assume he's some kind of superman. At least Marciano fought the best available, are you aware of what double standards are?

Bernard Hopkins reign at Middleweight has been criticised by many. It is not a stellar list of contenders and intruth on a par with Joe's reign at Super Middle minus Kessler.

If you put Jones opposition down then I can't see how you can elevate Hopkins when Bhops opposition was mainly substandard.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You do provide me with some with laughs trying to take the moral high ground and failing badly each and every time

Hopkins proved himself to be the better boxer by beating each and every contender there was to beat at Middleweight which was something Jones failed to do and he arguably beat better fighters at Light Heavyweight albeit without the longevity. Then you have the cheek to suggest its laughable to rate Hopkins as the superior boxer, in my eyes speed isn't the be all and end all.

Jones fought generally poor opposition much in the same way Calzaghe did at Super Middleweight, didn't face any of his closest rivals during his peak years yet we have to assume he's some kind of superman. At least Marciano fought the best available, are you aware of what double standards are?

What moral high ground?

Yes Hopkins proved himself by beating all comers for the MW title after RJJ had moved on and after RJJ had schooled him. With the exception of Darius M, RJJ beat the best LJHW available. Darius wouldn't fight out of germany and after the Olympic debacle, I wouldn't blame RJJ for not wanting to fight in a country where you have to KO the home fighter to get a draw.

RJJ made the opposition look poor. In 5 years who would have heard of Pascal or whoever Cloud/Dawson? Hop is great. Terrific fighter, but no patch on RJJ.

WelshDevilRob wrote:Bernard Hopkins reign at Middleweight has been criticised by many. It is not a stellar list of contenders and intruth on a par with Joe's reign at Super Middle minus Kessler.

If you put Jones opposition down then I can't see how you can elevate Hopkins when Bhops opposition was mainly substandard.

Agreed. But different rules for different fighters it seems.

I think he fought better fighters at Middleweight than Jones did at Light Heavyweight, it is also far better than Calzaghes reign at Super Middleweight and no matter how much I like Joe his opposition was dire.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I think he fought better fighters at Middleweight than Jones did at Light Heavyweight, it is also far better than Calzaghes reign at Super Middleweight and no matter how much I like Joe his opposition was dire.

And Jones outclassed Hop.

I'll leave the double standards to you Az it's what your good at it appears, the exception of DM is a pretty damm big exception though, a fighter who was deemed to be the lineal unified champion before he was bizarrely stripped of all his titles. Thats what people forget Jones didn't win his titles at Light Heavyweight on merit but was rather the beneficiary of boxing politics. The lineal light heavyweight championship was won by Virgil Hill when he beat Henry Maske he then subsequently lost it to Dariusz Michalczewski along with the IBF and WBA titles.

Hopkins was the first boxer to be the holder of each of the five belts at the same time and beat better fighters than Jones to do it in my opinion.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I think he fought better fighters at Middleweight than Jones did at Light Heavyweight, it is also far better than Calzaghes reign at Super Middleweight and no matter how much I like Joe his opposition was dire.

And Jones outclassed Hop.

What had Hopkins done at that point Az? Being an old school fighter his style relies on experience which at the point he did not have

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I think he fought better fighters at Middleweight than Jones did at Light Heavyweight, it is also far better than Calzaghes reign at Super Middleweight and no matter how much I like Joe his opposition was dire.

And Jones outclassed Hop.

What had Hopkins done at that point Az? Being an old school fighter his style relies on experience which at the point he did not have

He was a belt holder and fought a unification match with Jones and got outclassed. Interesting that he wasn't interesting in moving up when Roy left the MW division. I believed he called Roy out and wanted a re-match at MW.

A holder of which belt?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'll leave the double standards to you Az it's what your good at it appears, the exception of DM is a pretty damm big exception though, a fighter who was deemed to be the lineal unified champion before he was bizarrely stripped of all his titles. Thats what people forget Jones didn't win his titles at Light Heavyweight on merit but was rather the beneficiary of boxing politics. The lineal light heavyweight championship was won by Virgil Hill when he beat Henry Maske he then subsequently lost it to Dariusz Michalczewski along with the IBF and WBA titles.

Hopkins was the first boxer to be the holder of each of the five belts at the same time and beat better fighters than Jones to do it in my opinion.

Everyone recognised RJJ as the better fighter. I doubt anyone recognised Spinks as the real HW chanp prior to the fight with Tyson. DM wouldn't leave Germany to fight RJJ who was the money man then. Moreover their mutual opponents. Look at how each fared against RJJ in comparison to DM.

RJJ cannot be blamed for boxing politics. He didn't ask for DM to be stripped. If that's what you have to hold against RJJ being the best at LHW then its pretty flimsy.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A holder of which belt?

I believe he beat some brazilian guy for a vacant title. Edilson something.

A holder of which belt?

I believe hopkins bought the belt from Marks and Spencer for a pretty good price

Apologies it was for ther IBF belt against Mercado (brazilian).

Ooops wrong again. He was the USBA champ and not a belt holder.

Got a controversial draw having been knocked down twice fighting at altitude

But good try Az you werent to know that happened after the Jones fight despite me telling you 2/3 times before

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'll leave the double standards to you Az it's what your good at it appears, the exception of DM is a pretty damm big exception though, a fighter who was deemed to be the lineal unified champion before he was bizarrely stripped of all his titles. Thats what people forget Jones didn't win his titles at Light Heavyweight on merit but was rather the beneficiary of boxing politics. The lineal light heavyweight championship was won by Virgil Hill when he beat Henry Maske he then subsequently lost it to Dariusz Michalczewski along with the IBF and WBA titles.

Hopkins was the first boxer to be the holder of each of the five belts at the same time and beat better fighters than Jones to do it in my opinion.

Everyone recognised RJJ as the better fighter. I doubt anyone recognised Spinks as the real HW chanp prior to the fight with Tyson. DM wouldn't leave Germany to fight RJJ who was the money man then. Moreover their mutual opponents. Look at how each fared against RJJ in comparison to DM.

RJJ cannot be blamed for boxing politics. He didn't ask for DM to be stripped. If that's what you have to hold against RJJ being the best at LHW then its pretty flimsy.

In America he was considered the best although in Europe Dariusz was considered the best, to be the man you have to beat the man something which DM had done against Hill but Jones even to this day has never done at any weight

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Got a controversial draw having been knocked down twice fighting at altitude

But good try Az you werent to know that happened after the Jones fight despite me telling you 2/3 times before

They both fought at altitude. But Hop put the record straight in the rematch. Well thanks for telling me. It shows what attention I pay to your posts.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'll leave the double standards to you Az it's what your good at it appears, the exception of DM is a pretty damm big exception though, a fighter who was deemed to be the lineal unified champion before he was bizarrely stripped of all his titles. Thats what people forget Jones didn't win his titles at Light Heavyweight on merit but was rather the beneficiary of boxing politics. The lineal light heavyweight championship was won by Virgil Hill when he beat Henry Maske he then subsequently lost it to Dariusz Michalczewski along with the IBF and WBA titles.

Hopkins was the first boxer to be the holder of each of the five belts at the same time and beat better fighters than Jones to do it in my opinion.

Everyone recognised RJJ as the better fighter. I doubt anyone recognised Spinks as the real HW chanp prior to the fight with Tyson. DM wouldn't leave Germany to fight RJJ who was the money man then. Moreover their mutual opponents. Look at how each fared against RJJ in comparison to DM.

RJJ cannot be blamed for boxing politics. He didn't ask for DM to be stripped. If that's what you have to hold against RJJ being the best at LHW then its pretty flimsy.

In America he was considered the best although in Europe Dariusz was considered the best, to be the man you have to beat the man something which DM had done against Hill but Jones even to this day has never done at any weight

Where in Europe was DM considered better that RJJ? I even doubt if DM's mother and father thought he was the best. You seriously are stretching credibility here.

Ouch that cut me really deep and to think you have so much more to learn from me as well, there's a difference between a fighter fighting at altitude in a one off fight than someone conditioned to it. Look at how Ecuador perform at home in the football

The whole of mainland europe thought Dariusz was the better fighter much in the same way they always thought Ottke was something special. To be the man you have to beat the man it can't just be assumed.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Ouch that cut me really deep and to think you have so much more to learn from me as well, there's a difference between a fighter fighting at altitude in a one off fight than someone conditioned to it. Look at how Ecuador perform at home in the football

Altitude would have an effect in the latter paart of the fight. Hop got KD in the early part of the fight and came back to earn the draw. Altitude must have affected Medando as opposed to Hop. If you look at Equador's football team, they score more goals in the second half.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The whole of mainland europe thought Dariusz was the better fighter much in the same way they always thought Ottke was something special. To be the man you have to beat the man it can't just be assumed.

You would go so far as lying to try and win a debate. That is simply bs.

It's such a lie it's actually the truth and the laughing smilies are a clear sign of a moron, I suppose DM had the misfortune of genetics otherwise you may not be quite so dismissive

Imperial Ghosty wrote:It's such a lie it's actually the truth and the laughing smilies are a clear sign of a moron, I suppose DM had the misfortune of genetics otherwise you may not be quite so dismissive

Here we go again. Insults whenever you disagree with someone. And please say out load what you mean by the genetics issue.

Say what's on your mind. Be a man.

If you look through you'll find you started the insults but ignore that if you wish

You know what I mean Az best we keep the real issue with regards to some your opinions between us

He's a racist because he thought that the P4P number one was better than a stay at home Euro fighter?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:If you look through you'll find you started the insults but ignore that if you wish

You know what I mean Az best we keep the real issue with regards to some your opinions between us

As I figured. Lacking grapefruits and holding grapes instead. So sad.

I didn't say that did I Scott but do jump to assumptions

Was Jones not a stay at home American fighter?

Scottrf wrote:He's a racist because he thought that the P4P number one was better than a stay at home Euro fighter?

Thats about the level of his argument.

Absolutely shocking.

About as shocking as calling Floyd Patterson an Uncle Tom would you not agree?

'Jump to assumptions'. It's what you meant but you wont state it, just imply it. Why even imply something like that if you aren't willing to back up what you say?

Staying at home in the US and Germany aren't the same.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:About as shocking as calling Floyd Patterson an Uncle Tom would you not agree?

So what? What has the fact that I believe Patterson to have been an Uncle Tom got to do with RJJ not fighting DM?

Goodness me.

Staying at home in the US and Germany are exactly the same, financially the Klitschkos earn more there than they would in Germany

I didn't imply racism at all actually Scott, were dariusz michalczewski american he would be rated far higher

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:About as shocking as calling Floyd Patterson an Uncle Tom would you not agree?

So what? What has the fact that I believe Patterson to have been an Uncle Tom got to do with RJJ not fighting DM?

Goodness me.

Don't accuse me of shocking statements then, it screams of double standards

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Staying at home in the US and Germany are exactly the same, financially the Klitschkos earn more there than they would in Germany

I didn't imply racism at all actually Scott, were dariusz michalczewski american he would be rated far higher

What was the genetics thing about? Are you saying that the genetics thing which you raised is about his nationality? Backing away now are you? Thanks.

America has always been the place where you go to prove yourself. Noone considered Ottke genuine through his career, nor was Darius but for the lineal obsessed historians.

I'll take your word for that because I can't be bothered to argue otherwise.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:About as shocking as calling Floyd Patterson an Uncle Tom would you not agree?

So what? What has the fact that I believe Patterson to have been an Uncle Tom got to do with RJJ not fighting DM?

Goodness me.

Don't accuse me of shocking statements then, it screams of double standards

I backed up my argument about Patterson. All here disagreed with me. But I put my opinions there to be shot at. You made a vile implication which you are refusing to explain. No need to explain it anyway because you and I (and scott) know what you means. Now you are squirming trying badly to explain yourself.

Scottrf wrote:America has always been the place where you go to prove yourself. Noone considered Ottke genuine through his career, nor was Darius but for the lineal obsessed historians.

I'll take your word for that because I can't be bothered to argue otherwise.

Not for the mainland Europeans it hasn't they have always been happy to fight in their homeland unwilling to give up home advantage much like the Americans are, can only really think of Carpentier who travelled to America. DM is unfairly labelled alongside Ottke, his standard of opposition wasn't far removed from that of Jones

Roy was the more respected boxer earning a lot more, the emphasis was on Darius to force a matchup with Roy, not vice versa.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:About as shocking as calling Floyd Patterson an Uncle Tom would you not agree?

So what? What has the fact that I believe Patterson to have been an Uncle Tom got to do with RJJ not fighting DM?

Goodness me.

Don't accuse me of shocking statements then, it screams of double standards

I backed up my argument about Patterson. All here disagreed with me. But I put my opinions there to be shot at. You made a vile implication which you are refusing to explain. No need to explain it anyway because you and I (and scott) know what you means. Now you are squirming trying badly to explain yourself.

Double standards coming from someone who used the racial climate to shamefully label Patterson and also tried to claim that Hopkins comments were contextually different from Minters, good logic there.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Scottrf wrote:America has always been the place where you go to prove yourself. Noone considered Ottke genuine through his career, nor was Darius but for the lineal obsessed historians.

I'll take your word for that because I can't be bothered to argue otherwise.

Not for the mainland Europeans it hasn't they have always been happy to fight in their homeland unwilling to give up home advantage much like the Americans are, can only really think of Carpentier who travelled to America. DM is unfairly labelled alongside Ottke, his standard of opposition wasn't far removed from that of Jones

Total nonsense. Moreover their mutual opponents were handidly dealt with by RJJ.

Scottrf wrote:Roy was the more respected boxer earning a lot more, the emphasis was on Darius to force a matchup with Roy, not vice versa.

Maybe he thinks its because of genetics that RJJ he thinks should go crawling to DM for a fight.

Scottrf wrote:Roy was the more respected boxer earning a lot more, the emphasis was on Darius to force a matchup with Roy, not vice versa.

From the American perspective yes but from the German perspective Dariusz was there champion whom Roy needed to chase, there seems to be a notion that whatever the American press says goes but unlike the poorer countries Germany doesn't abide by those 'rules'

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Scottrf wrote:America has always been the place where you go to prove yourself. Noone considered Ottke genuine through his career, nor was Darius but for the lineal obsessed historians.

I'll take your word for that because I can't be bothered to argue otherwise.

Not for the mainland Europeans it hasn't they have always been happy to fight in their homeland unwilling to give up home advantage much like the Americans are, can only really think of Carpentier who travelled to America. DM is unfairly labelled alongside Ottke, his standard of opposition wasn't far removed from that of Jones

Total nonsense. Moreover their mutual opponents were handidly dealt with by RJJ.

Which mainland european fighters have plyed there trade in America then, please enlighten me much in the same way the Japanese fighters stay in Japan