Archie Moore vs RJJ

First topic message reminder :

Simple question.

Who wins when both fighters were at their peaks (whenever Moore's peak was).

I'd go for RJJ via close but decisive UD. His footwork would do it.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:About as shocking as calling Floyd Patterson an Uncle Tom would you not agree?

So what? What has the fact that I believe Patterson to have been an Uncle Tom got to do with RJJ not fighting DM?

Goodness me.

Don't accuse me of shocking statements then, it screams of double standards

I backed up my argument about Patterson. All here disagreed with me. But I put my opinions there to be shot at. You made a vile implication which you are refusing to explain. No need to explain it anyway because you and I (and scott) know what you means. Now you are squirming trying badly to explain yourself.

Double standards coming from someone who used the racial climate to shamefully label Patterson and also tried to claim that Hopkins comments were contextually different from Minters, good logic there.

Haha!

Why dont you explain the genetics comment? Frit?

You dont understand the context whatsoever. Importantly you do not understand the context as to how it applies to Americans and for Minter saying what he said during a spike in popularity for the NF.

Carry on.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Roy was the more respected boxer earning a lot more, the emphasis was on Darius to force a matchup with Roy, not vice versa.

From the American perspective yes but from the German perspective Dariusz was there champion whom Roy needed to chase, there seems to be a notion that whatever the American press says goes but unlike the poorer countries Germany doesn't abide by those 'rules'

Straws and clutching springs to mind.

The German perspective? When has that been considered important? Ottke is an ATG in that case. America has a much bigger impact on worldwide boxing, and making it there is what most boxers try to achieve. Are we to criticise Martinez for ducking Sturm because German's consider him legitimate?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Scottrf wrote:America has always been the place where you go to prove yourself. Noone considered Ottke genuine through his career, nor was Darius but for the lineal obsessed historians.

I'll take your word for that because I can't be bothered to argue otherwise.

Not for the mainland Europeans it hasn't they have always been happy to fight in their homeland unwilling to give up home advantage much like the Americans are, can only really think of Carpentier who travelled to America. DM is unfairly labelled alongside Ottke, his standard of opposition wasn't far removed from that of Jones

Total nonsense. Moreover their mutual opponents were handidly dealt with by RJJ.

Which mainland european fighters have plyed there trade in America then, please enlighten me much in the same way the Japanese fighters stay in Japan

Japanese fighters stay in Japan because there are no great small US fighters. If there was, they would be going to USA to make the money. If you had a good Japanese fighter above LW, he would have to defend in USA. It is that simple.

Golota fought in USA, John Duddy made his name in USA. Naz went to USA as he knew to make it there is to reach superstar status. Even Calzaghe and Hatton went there for big fights and money. RJJ was a big fight and big money. DM's management wanted no part of him.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Scottrf wrote:America has always been the place where you go to prove yourself. Noone considered Ottke genuine through his career, nor was Darius but for the lineal obsessed historians.

I'll take your word for that because I can't be bothered to argue otherwise.

Not for the mainland Europeans it hasn't they have always been happy to fight in their homeland unwilling to give up home advantage much like the Americans are, can only really think of Carpentier who travelled to America. DM is unfairly labelled alongside Ottke, his standard of opposition wasn't far removed from that of Jones

Total nonsense. Moreover their mutual opponents were handidly dealt with by RJJ.

Which mainland european fighters have plyed there trade in America then, please enlighten me much in the same way the Japanese fighters stay in Japan

How many of those would make your top 100? Then compare that to American boxers who have stayed at home.

Look at the Euro fighters who decided to go to Japan to make their name. How many stay at home euro fighters (or japan) are in the top 1000.

I'm still curious as to what the genetics comment was about.

The WBO belt mean't very, very little back then it was like the IBO belt now. Lets not pretend otherwise.

Why in the World is Roy Jones Junior gonna goto Europe to fight for a WBO belt. It makes no sense.

WelshDevilRob wrote:The WBO belt mean't very, very little back then it was like the IBO belt now. Lets not pretend otherwise.

Why in the World is Roy Jones Junior gonna goto Europe to fight for a WBO belt. It makes no sense.

Genetics maybe?

When you've already won the WBA and IBF belts, been the recognized best in the division and had it all stripped from you for no reason I think it's safe to say DM was sick to death of boxing politics, seeing his legitimacy taken away for no apparent reason yet he was the one actively seeking out Jones, you should read up on it Az your knowledge has been left wanting again.

Is this the same WBO belt Rob that De La Hoya made his name winning at both super featherweight and lightweight? But of course a boxing writer like yourself would know this already surely?

The japanese fight in Japan because that's where the money is for them much like the German fighters, long gone are the days when you fought for recognition. The great Duilio Loi fought exclusively in Italy because that's where he made his money, he could earn more at home than he ever would be able to in America. British fighters have a long history of plying their trade in America but the rest of the world don't view America as the be all and end all.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:When you've already won the WBA and IBF belts, been the recognized best in the division and had it all stripped from you for no reason I think it's safe to say DM was sick to death of boxing politics, seeing his legitimacy taken away for no apparent reason yet he was the one actively seeking out Jones, you should read up on it Az your knowledge has been left wanting again.

Is this the same WBO belt Rob that De La Hoya made his name winning at both super featherweight and lightweight? But of course a boxing writer like yourself would know this already surely?

The japanese fight in Japan because that's where the money is for them much like the German fighters, long gone are the days when you fought for recognition. The great Duilio Loi fought exclusively in Italy because that's where he made his money, he could earn more at home than he ever would be able to in America. British fighters have a long history of plying their trade in America but the rest of the world don't view America as the be all and end all.

Boxers fight for money. The bigger fight would have been RJJ and in America. Only someone who dnies simple facts for the sake of an argument would deny that. So he was sick to death of boxing politics that he decided to punish himself by not fighting the biggest money fight he would have ever had. Doesn't add in anyone's book. RJJ said he would fight him in America. Economic sense. Read up on market forces in economics. So no it is not safe to say he was sick to death of boxing politics. You are guessing again and way off track.

RJJ was p4p the #1 in the world Yet you say europeans thought DM the better boxer. Extraordinary. Laughable. Nonsensical and downright ridiculous.

Japanese fighters fight in Japan because there is no market for small fighters in USA. There are no great small US boxers. Outside of Jeff Chandler and Michael Carbajal who else has there been. Plus there are enough Mexicans and Latinos to keep things ticking over.

Most Mexican fighters who have made it fight in USA. Most Puerto Ricans, Most Panamanians. Most Hispanic in short. Most Africans who have made it fight in USA. In fact most of the world who have made it fight in USA. Wlad would go to USA to fight if there was a legit challenge from America because he knows that is where the money is. If a great small American fighters rises up, the Japanese fighter would fight in Vegas against him because that is where the money is.

If you claim I lack boxing knowledge, you lack simple economic sense.

You haven't got a clue and i'm just going to sit back and watch you spout more and more drivel

So these Puerto Ricans,Panamanians and Phillipino fighters could earn big money in their own country then could they? Thought not and you accuse me of having no economic sense, before you insult others you should your pathetic excuse of an argument. The boxing world hasn't revolved around America for a long time now and Jones being ranked number one P4P doesn't automatically make him a better Light heavyweight than DM, can't believe i'm having to explain this to a supposed boxing fan.

Jones wouldn't even enter into negotiations with DM so any argument you have to the contrary is a blatent lie, you basing your argument on guesswork, it isn't guesswork to say these fighters stay at home because that is where they are popular and that is where they earn money.

Petty insults wont get you any where, pulled your strings like a puppet

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You haven't got a clue and i'm just going to sit back and watch you spout more and more drivel

So these Puerto Ricans,Panamanians and Phillipino fighters could earn big money in their own country then could they? Thought not and you accuse me of having no economic sense, before you insult others you should your pathetic excuse of an argument. The boxing world hasn't revolved around America for a long time now and Jones being ranked number one P4P doesn't automatically make him a better Light heavyweight than DM, can't believe i'm having to explain this to a supposed boxing fan.

Jones wouldn't even enter into negotiations with DM so any argument you have to the contrary is a blatent lie, you basing your argument on guesswork, it isn't guesswork to say these fighters stay at home because that is where they are popular and that is where they earn money.

Petty insults wont get you any where, pulled your strings like a puppet

Haha. They could earn big money wherever. Ali fought in the Philippines, Zaire, Kuala Lumpor. As long as TV is willing to pay they will fight. But TV will pay bigger money if they fought in USA. Advertising rights and all that.

Calm down. Your losing it again. Answer this. Why do you think the big oney fights are in the USA?

I'm not the one lying here. Jones said he would fight in USA and USA only. He pulls the money and therefore calls the shots. Why should RJJ go to Germany when he is the draw. Your argument must be genetics. No other reason.

Occasionally you a fighter whos talents outstrip their record and I think Jones is a clear example of this.

I dont think his record is nearly as bad as some make out but equally it doesnt really compare to Moores at lightheavy.

In these cases it tends to come down to how much you rate their talent and their ability. Some people adopt the conservative approach that because he never beat a great lightheavy there is nothing tangible to say that he does. Others give him a far greater benefit of the doubt based on his natural talents.

I think there is plenty to infer from his record that he was an outstanding talent well capable of beating a great lightheavy. If you look at the ease he beat his opposition compared to other contempary good fighters it indicates a really top quality boxer rather than an overated fighter.

The Virgil Hill who was criticised as being over the hill went the distance with DM but was knocked out in a few rounds by Jones.

Reggie Johnson has never been beaten easily in his life bar being compltely shut out by Jones.

Toney was schooled, Hopkins never beaten as easily by anyone, Malinga lost a SD to Eubank and recorded a win over Benn - was knocked out easily by Jones etc etc

I appreciate the arguments that at lightheavy there is a lack of great fighters on his resume but I think if you look at the performances and the nature of the wins, especially in contrast with the other top fightes at the time then I think Jones massive reputation at the time is justified.

I think its a kind of stubborn approach to use the argument tht because he didnt beat a great lightheavy theres nothing to suggest he could beat Moore. His record, performances and ability would clearly point to him having a reasonable chance for me.

I can understand some peoples reluctance to assume to much with Jones and put their weight behind the more tangibe record such as Moores, but I also think theres a risk of selling Jones and his capabilities way short by just over emphasising the lack of greats on his lightheavy record. I think its very much a case of Jones being a great fighter that lacks a matching resume rather than an overrated fighter who only became great by virtue of beating weaker opposition.

Personally I would not give Jones less than a 40% chance against nearly all other lightheavyweights.

Your so easily manipulated Az

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Your so easily manipulated Az

Must be genetics.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Your so easily manipulated Az

Must be genetics.

az, put me out of my misery. What are those radical whatsits that we derive from separating eggs ? I was going to go through your posting history to find the name, but that's a bit like watching a Johnny Nelson boxed set.

Thanks.

Cheap shot at the expense of one of Sheffield's finest Windy. Might have to write a book review of Johnny's autobiography which beyond any reasonable expectations is a decent read. May be the first and only time anyone on here says something nice about Nelson.

Humble apologies, jeff. Mustn't upset you Plantagenets.

What gets me is that we're basing this on "talent" - talent doesn't win you fights. Having a chin, motivation, putting it allllll together on fight night do.

My views on RJJ are well documented, but to base opinions on how he'd fair against an ATG at LHW based on what he did (which isn't exactly beyond special) at MW/SMW is far fetched for my liking.

For me he quite clearly had issues fighting above SMW. Many, many fighters aren't able to move up above what is naturally their best weight class - Hatton, Kostya T, Vic Darchinyan etc etc - the list could go on and on. RJJ is no exception for me personally, save for Virgill Hill and the first Tarver fight he hasn't got anything on his record to suggest he could cope with Moore - he does have 3 consecutive losses (2 by KO obviously) to guys he was still more than expected to beat... And he did beat Tarver after coming back down after Ruiz so the whole "lost weight too quickly" horlicks doesn't hold water in the slightest.

The LHW version of RJJ beating Moore @ 175? Give me a break.

coxy0001 wrote:What gets me is that we're basing this on "talent" - talent doesn't win you fights. Having a chin, motivation, putting it allllll together on fight night do.

My views on RJJ are well documented, but to base opinions on how he'd fair against an ATG at LHW based on what he did (which isn't exactly beyond special) at MW/SMW is far fetched for my liking.

For me he quite clearly had issues fighting above SMW. Many, many fighters aren't able to move up above what is naturally their best weight class - Hatton, Kostya T, Vic Darchinyan etc etc - the list could go on and on. RJJ is no exception for me personally, save for Virgill Hill and the first Tarver fight he hasn't got anything on his record to suggest he could cope with Moore - he does have 3 consecutive losses (2 by KO obviously) to guys he was still more than expected to beat... And he did beat Tarver after coming back down after Ruiz so the whole "lost weight too quickly" horlicks doesn't hold water in the slightest.

The LHW version of RJJ beating Moore @ 175? Give me a break.

When he came back down from Lightheavy he eeked out a win over Tarver and looked well beyond his best. Part of the reason why there was a rematch.

Its pretty obvious hes finished past Ruiz. He was mid thirties and didnt post a noteable performance once he came back down. I dont know how you cant spot the difference between a pre Ruiz Jones who barely lost a round and the one after that barely wins a meaningful fight. So the argument holds plenty of water. Theres nothing in his performances when hes at his best to suggest he couldnt cope with Moore either. Nobody came close to beating him. The only fight there is even a hint that he struggled in was against Griffen I.

Manos

Or maybe it's because he was actually fighting a decent calibre of opponent? Not saying Tarver was an ATG - far from it - am saying he was a level above what RJJ had previously fought.

It's all well and good dragging boxing almost to its knees by constantly fighting bum after bum and looking good in the process as opposed to going up against someone who wasn't befuddled by all his little prancy dancing combinations.

Just a very, very typical case of of a RJJ fan simply labelling him ast it as it suits your arguement. And no - the point holds jack all water as there's all sorts of holes in it. You can't blame his performance against Tarver (1) coming down and then to promptly get his bum kicked all over the ring in ensuing fights when he couldn't have claimed to have been "drained" or anything to do with that.

He stepped up in a class of oppo and was found severly wanting at LHW. Again, Tarver wasn't b-class and it showed in performance. Heck, even natural LHW Johnson smashed him around - He wasn't effective @ LHW and fighting b-class fighters one after the other doesn't prove he could get anywhere - and i mean anywhere - near a certifiable LHW legende in Moore.

You have jack all proof he could cut the mustard @ LHW with any of the top 15 ATGs at the weight, let alone one of the greatest.

Or maybe it's because he was actually fighting a decent calibre of opponent?

well just before eric harding had faced jones, harding beat tarver, also tarver only SD'd reggie johnson a few years after jones had a shutout over him.

Also before glen johnson fought jones he had lost to harmon, gonzalez; two fighters jones beat pre ruiz and omar sheika; someone a shot jones knocked out.


obviously styles make fights, but comparing their common opponents, it's likely that jones would've beaten johnson and tarver pre ruiz and it is clear he wasn't teh same post ruiz

coxy0001 wrote:Manos

Or maybe it's because he was actually fighting a decent calibre of opponent? Not saying Tarver was an ATG - far from it - am saying he was a level above what RJJ had previously fought.

It's all well and good dragging boxing almost to its knees by constantly fighting bum after bum and looking good in the process as opposed to going up against someone who wasn't befuddled by all his little prancy dancing combinations.

Just a very, very typical case of of a RJJ fan simply labelling him ast it as it suits your arguement. And no - the point holds jack all water as there's all sorts of holes in it. You can't blame his performance against Tarver (1) coming down and then to promptly get his bum kicked all over the ring in ensuing fights when he couldn't have claimed to have been "drained" or anything to do with that.

He stepped up in a class of oppo and was found severly wanting at LHW. Again, Tarver wasn't b-class and it showed in performance. Heck, even natural LHW Johnson smashed him around - He wasn't effective @ LHW and fighting b-class fighters one after the other doesn't prove he could get anywhere - and i mean anywhere - near a certifiable LHW legende in Moore.

You have jack all proof he could cut the mustard @ LHW with any of the top 15 ATGs at the weight, let alone one of the greatest.

Look at the facts.

He was 35 post Ruiz. Very few fighters are at the best at 35, let alone ones that rely so heavily on speed and reflexes.

He had come down two weights.

His perormances and results post Ruiz are rubbish. Its not just against decent fighters. Glenn Johnson is nothing special. Your having a laugh if you think a pre Ruiz Jones would be knocked out by Glen Johnson. Pre Ruiz Jones whipped Harding, Toney, Johnson, Griffen, Hill etc all of whom would have been a similar standard or better than Tarver and Johnson.

It all screams of a fighter way past his best.

I frankly dont understand how someone can attach so much significance to the post 35 year old career of Jones when virtually everything in it points to a shot fighter. I suppose now Lebedev and Green are also significant losses.

Norton got spanked against Foreman but gave Ali hell.

Going on common opponents with so many quandries is never a good idea.

Tarver for instance wasn't even at 18-0 from memory, by the time he fought RJJ (what - 4 years later?) i think it's fair to assume he had progressed somewhat.

How many times did RJJ hold the lineal crown btw? Many thanks. I'm done on him now, my views are extremely clear on how i don't rate him at all at 175 and would get annhialated by any of the top 10 ATGs at the weight.

Manos

He had showed nothing to suggest he was past it. You don't suddenly become shot unless you were never any good in the first place (think Lacy etc), especially after a win. The tell tale signs are usually there, wasn't he hot favourite to win those fights?

It's a convenient excuse to band around, simple fact is RJJ fought an average level of oppo @ 175 and got found out by 2 guys who simply had his number who weren't exactly anything massively special either.

This is about RJJ @ 175, nothing else. He's knowhere near the top 20 175lb fighters and for me it's laughable people think he's competitive with those guys. I'm done with this subject as i really can't be bothered to debate how a guy who fought bums all his effing career, save for a couple of notable victories, is being mentioned in the same breath of having a chance against the likes of Moore, Tunney and co - for me it's borderline disgraceful. At this point i bow out of this topic, so save yourself typing a reply.

Decidedly unconvinced by Jones overall merits I must say but I concur that he was a done and dusted pound for pound fighter after coming back down from light heavy. His style was especially vunerable to father time.

I believe Moore has all the qualities and then some to win this whether it be by decision or points. The extent and nature of the victory I think depends on the much debated merits of Jones which manos rightly adheres to. I believe worse case scenario Moore overcomes a tricky Jones to win on points and best case cenario Moore exposes Jones as being not quite all time great level and wins by knockout.

I suspect at his best Jones wold be an awkward and slipery customer for the great light heavyweights but by no means invincible or untouchable.

From wiki

In 1996, High Frequency Boxing's John DiMaio wrote ``The early evidence points toward the real possibility that Jones is the greatest talent this sport has ever seen. His skill so dwarfs that of his nearest ranked opposition...that providing competitive opponents is a more challenging dilemma than the fights themselves.'` The expert opinion of Boxing magazine's editor, Bert Sugar, is provided on Jones' website: ``He possesses the fastest hands in boxing with lightning fast moves and explosive power in both hands.'` After Mike MacCallum lost the World Boxing Council light heavyweight crown to Roy Jones in a 1996 unanimous decision, he called Jones ``the greatest fighter of all time.

'`

I think McCallum is going a little OTT. But he was so far ahead of his opponents it beggers belief. Oh and he ducked DM.