Munster Coaches Accidentally Send Document Criticising Munster Players to Munster Players

by **Notch** Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:48 am

As E-mail blunders go, this is a good one!

Irish Independent wrote:MUNSTER have played down the effect of a highly sensitive and critical player review document which was accidentally distributed to the whole squad last week.

On Wednesday, the report, detailing comments on each player, was emailed to all squad members. Some of the comments were highly critical, and, in a couple of instances, personalised, the Sunday Independent understands.

The document also revealed through colour-coding whether the management considered each player to be first choice or second choice and, in the case of one player, questioned why he was even in the squad at all. It is understood the issue of contracts was also mentioned.

“It was an attachment to a weekly schedule and it was not supposed to go out,” a senior source in Munster said yesterday.

“But it’s not a crisis or anything like it. The senior players met to talk about it, and, yes, it might have been hurtful to one or two players, but we’ve moved on.

“We’ve spoken to the players, and the vast majority have accepted it was a mistake and have put it behind us. In no way did it have any negative effect on the way we played last night (against London Irish on Friday) — maybe the opposite in that they pulled together.”

The source, who did not wish to be named, declined to mention those players for whom it may still be an issue.

He also denied that a senior player had been accused in the document, which he said was updated on a weekly basis, of being on “a gravy train”, and that another was classed as “mentally weak”.

“Anthony (Foley) spoke to the group and said that it is what it is and it shouldn’t have happened, rather than try to cowpat the players,” the source added.

Inescapably, it makes for a difficult start to Foley’s tenure as head coach, having succeeded Rob Penney after two seasons as his assistant.

Munster have also parted company with their head of fitness Adam Trypas, who took up the role in January.

He will be succeeded by Aled Walters, the senior strength and conditioning coach, who is going into his third season with the province.

Just like David O'Doherty sang really

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzvZnb5fXoo

by dubh_linn Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:11 am

Almost unbelievably bad man sausage up! It will be interesting to see what effect it has on the players morale...will it galvanise greater effort or just cause bad feeling?

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:27 am

Absolute shambles.

Unless you read Munsterfans, where they're trying to convince themselves and each other it's brilliant news.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:43 am

The only problem I'd have with it is that it was leaked to the press.

The dogs in the street know who is first, second and third choice at the moment - its up to those players to challenge each other so they are regarded as 1st choice.

I don't know what the issue with that is.

Anyone not carrying his weight needs a kick up the yard. Good to see that Foley won't tolerate those not pulling their weight.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:54 am

Well to know that a coach has classed you 'mentally weak' wouldn't be particularly helpful I suspect.

Very embarrassing.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:56 am

As if on cue... yeah it's fantastic.

I'm sure no-one's humiliated, embarrassed or feels that this behind-closed-doors criticism is unfair. I'm sure they're all galvanised now to be the best that they can be.

If you had to guess, Sin, who's the senior player who's on the "gravy train?" DOC? Ryan? Botha?

by Exiledinborders Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:01 am

Sin é wrote:The only problem I'd have with it is that it was leaked to the press.

The dogs in the street know who is first, second and third choice at the moment - its up to those players to challenge each other so they are regarded as 1st choice.

I don't know what the issue with that is.

Anyone not carrying his weight needs a kick up the yard. Good to see that Foley won't tolerate those not pulling their weight.

The issue is that as a manager in any walk of life you give it to your employees straight. If you think an employee is under-performing you tell them to their face. You do not tell everybody else by email.

It is a crass mistake. In any company I have worked for the manager concerned would be disciplined.

by SecretFly Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:05 am

It's a Perfect Foleyism. You know it, I know it, and most importantly of all, Foley knows it.

This all part of his personalised psyche game to bring back the grunt'n'balls to his Munster players. Accuse some of them of being less than 'Munster' and you have them chomping at the bit to prove everyone, including the basterard coaches, wrong.
Foley ain't dumb. It's all part of the rough 'em up treatment designed to bring the gristle back into their much-too-fancy-for-farm-boys Penney shytetactics Wink

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:20 am

Sorry, phone randomly decided to post that again.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:40 am

Don Alfonso wrote:As if on cue... yeah it's fantastic.

I'm sure no-one's humiliated, embarrassed or feels that this behind-closed-doors criticism is unfair. I'm sure they're all galvanised now to be the best that they can be.

If you had to guess, Sin, who's the senior player who's on the "gravy train?" DOC? Ryan? Botha?

How do you know they haven't been told where they stand in a one-to-one. The error is that someone sent out an email with it attached by mistake.

I don't know who the senior player is but I doubt if its DOC (captaining Munster for the friendlies), Ryan (injured) or BJ Botha (who has been putting in some long shifts for Munster recently (as in 80 mins against Toulon and 75 mins against Toulouse) because of Archer's injury. Jerry Flannery has been complimenting BJ as well for his coaching contribution.

If there are players there who are taking life for granted in Munster, I really don't really care if they are humiliated in front of their team mates (who are probably delighted that they are getting a kick up the yard).

by **George Carlin** Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:59 am

I liked (emphasis added) "the vast majority have accepted it was a mistake and have put it behind us". Presumably only those who are mentally weak haven't got over it by now.

That is an absolute horlicks and aside from a direct nuclear strike on a club's training ground is literally about the worst thing that could have happened at the start of a new season.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:30 am

Sin do you think the player on the gravy train was told that face to face? Apparently there's a player about whom it was asked why they even had a contract. Do you think that was a part of their face to face evaluation?

If I was that player, I'd feel it was a snide, unnecessary dig behind my back. If I was a player whose evaluation here didn't match very closely what I'd been told to my face, I'd be wary. And a bit mistrustful in future.

by **George Carlin** Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:32 am

Is there any chance, any chance at all, that Foley did this intentionally to give certain players a real kick up the bum and a bit of a reality check?

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:46 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin do you think the player on the gravy train was told that face to face? Apparently there's a player about whom it was asked why they even had a contract. Do you think that was a part of their face to face evaluation?

If I was that player, I'd feel it was a snide, unnecessary dig behind my back. If I was a player whose evaluation here didn't match very closely what I'd been told to my face, I'd be wary. And a bit mistrustful in future.

All the players are being continually assessed (as in weekly once the season starts). The ambitious ones will want to know why they are not being picked and I doubt very much if Foley would hold back on letting them know what he thinks of them.

At least we know who is boss in Munster (the coaching staff, not the players).

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:48 am

George Carlin wrote:Is there any chance, any chance at all, that Foley did this intentionally to give certain players a real kick up the bum and a bit of a reality check?

I don't think so. The Munster culture (which not everyone adopts to) is fairly brutal when it comes to people knowing where they stand, particularly if they are not pulling their weight.

by **Notch** Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:50 am

George Carlin wrote:Is there any chance, any chance at all, that Foley did this intentionally to give certain players a real kick up the bum and a bit of a reality check?

Probably not, and if he did it's a stupid idea. He'll be saying those things to players to give them a kick up the arse face to face, and he wouldn't hold back either. Thats not the problem with this. The problem is that giving an arse kicking over e-mail would be an absolutely terrible idea- and doing it over e-mail and sharing it with the rest of the squad is even worse. Thats why it seems clearly unintentional.

Whatever way you spin it, it's fairly clearly a bad thing.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:12 am

Nah, Sin's right.

It's a masterstroke of strong, up-front leadership.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:18 am

I'd prefer to hear that than Tom Court's view on the reason why Mark Anscombe failed was because he wasn't Joe Schmidt.

Looks to me like some of the senior Ulster players scapegoated him for their failures on the pitch.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:20 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Nah, Sin's right.

It's a masterstroke of strong, up-front leadership.

I hope Foley roots out whoever spoke to the Indo about this. I'd imagine a lot of the players would have preferred if it was kept in-house.

by **Notch** Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:21 am

Sin é wrote:I'd prefer to hear that than Tom Court's view on the reason why Mark Anscombe failed was because he wasn't Joe Schmidt.

Looks to me like some of the senior Ulster players scapegoated him for their failures on the pitch.

You can't take any comment on Munster objectively at all can you?

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:21 am

Serious foul-up by Munster management.

Sin's considered summary?

"Ulster are bad".

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:29 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Serious foul-up by Munster management.

Sin's considered summary?

"Ulster are bad".

Was it not player power that had a large say in Anscombe being shown the door?

Problems with players being too big for their boots also seemed to have been the reason why Mark McCall resigned as well.

Leinster needed a very strong coach (Cheika) to sort their heads out.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:34 am

And that is relevant because. ..?

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:35 am

Don Alfonso wrote:And that is relevant because. ..?

I think it operates better if the players are kept on their toes and don't take anything for granted.

No jobs for the boys down in Munster.

by nathan Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:39 am

Haha, things don't change around here. Complete man sausage up by the management and sine is trying to put a gloss on it Yahoo

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:42 am

Is it also better operation to send out emails across a whole squad with sensitive information about players' contracts?

No jobs for the boys down in Munster?

Seriously?

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:43 am

Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:And that is relevant because. ..?

I think it operates better if the players are kept on their toes and don't take anything for granted.

No jobs for the boys down in Munster.

Schoolboy error though. Whistle

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:45 am

nathan wrote:Haha, things don't change around here. Complete man sausage up by the management and sine is trying to put a gloss on it

I doubt if the management is responsible for leaking it to the press (which is the real problem I'd imagine the squad are pretty upset that someone has done so as well (that is a sackable offence).

Not the first time that the wrong email attachment was sent.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:48 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Is it also better operation to send out emails across a whole squad with sensitive information about players' contracts?

No jobs for the boys down in Munster?

Seriously?

We don't know who sent the email. It could have been one of the administrators. It wouldn't be the first time the wrong attachment was sent with an email. It happens all the time. Most companies have disclaimers about the confidentiality of email if received in error.

by nathan Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:59 am

Sin é wrote:
nathan wrote:Haha, things don't change around here. Complete man sausage up by the management and sine is trying to put a gloss on it

I doubt if the management is responsible for leaking it to the press (which is the real problem I'd imagine the squad are pretty upset that someone has done so as well (that is a sackable offence).

Not the first time that the wrong email attachment was sent.

Its still a man sausage up regardless of who sent it out in error.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:03 am

Everything's grand down Munster way, then. Great.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:43 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Everything's grand down Munster way, then. Great.

Not as bad as you like to think is probably closer to the truth.

edit: And for the record, the Munster rugby source claims that there were no comments about Gravy Trains or Mentally Weak players.

by nathan Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:47 am

Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Everything's grand down Munster way, then. Great.

Not as bad as you like to think is probably closer to the truth.

Or as great as you like to think...

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:06 am

nathan wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Everything's grand down Munster way, then. Great.

Not as bad as you like to think is probably closer to the truth.

Or as great as you like to think...

I'd be fairly confident that Munster will be there or thereabouts in both Europe and Pro12 when the reckonining time comes.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:09 am

Sin, I don't think it signals the end of Munster rugby. It may well just blow over. I'm not trying to extrapolate this irresponsible mistake to tar Munster as an Empire of Evil.

I just think it's a pretty horrible thing to happen, and the idea of "why does such-and-such a player even have a contract? " as some kind of written assessment is pretty unprofessional. You're more upset that someone touted. Fine.

Your bewildering, unfocused whataboutery references to Ulster's balls-ups are initially amusing, but ultimately exhausting.

by **Notch** Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:26 am

No, I just posted this as an interesting thing that happened. It'll be forgotten by next week, the consequences may linger for one or two players behind the scenes, but its just a notable story right now. The Munster coaches fecked up. It has nothing to do with Ulster.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:08 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin, I don't think it signals the end of Munster rugby. It may well just blow over. I'm not trying to extrapolate this irresponsible mistake to tar Munster as an Empire of Evil.

I just think it's a pretty horrible thing to happen, and the idea of "why does such-and-such a player even have a contract? " as some kind of written assessment is pretty unprofessional. You're more upset that someone touted. Fine.

Your bewildering, unfocused whataboutery references to Ulster's balls-ups are initially amusing, but ultimately exhausting.

I think the Ulster players need to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming the coaches for their shortcomings. Tom Court's interview in thescore (far more reputable than the Sindo) last Friday confirmed that belief to me. Everyone of the coaches get hung out to dry for Ulster's shortcomings starting with McCall, then Matt Williams, McLaughlin and the latest casualty, Anscombe. That isn't a balls up - thats players who should have run out of excuses about 3 coaches back.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:21 pm

Right. This is a thread about a report that Munster management mistakenly sent an email that may have angered some of their players and compromised their privacy.

Thanks for your thoughts on Ulster players shirking responsibility.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:25 pm

I made the point that I would prefer having a management who was taking no Poopie from their players than the way Ulster seems to go through coaches.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:43 pm

And them emailing contract details around the whole squad is "taking no poopie"?

Slagging players off behind their back is "taking no poopie?

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:53 pm

What contract details were emailed around. Have you seen the email or are you like Brendan Fanning just throwing a fishing line out there?

by **Notch** Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:04 pm

Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Sin, I don't think it signals the end of Munster rugby. It may well just blow over. I'm not trying to extrapolate this irresponsible mistake to tar Munster as an Empire of Evil.

I just think it's a pretty horrible thing to happen, and the idea of "why does such-and-such a player even have a contract? " as some kind of written assessment is pretty unprofessional. You're more upset that someone touted. Fine.

Your bewildering, unfocused whataboutery references to Ulster's balls-ups are initially amusing, but ultimately exhausting.

I think the Ulster players need to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming the coaches for their shortcomings. Tom Court's interview in thescore (far more reputable than the Sindo) last Friday confirmed that belief to me. Everyone of the coaches get hung out to dry for Ulster's shortcomings starting with McCall, then Matt Williams, McLaughlin and the latest casualty, Anscombe. That isn't a balls up - thats players who should have run out of excuses about 3 coaches back.

Cool, you should start a thread about it then Rolling Eyes

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:10 pm

Just going by the report.

I don't believe any part of it shows the Munster management "take no poopie" from their players.

And it was leaked, so someone's obviously upset.

I see the head of fitness has gone as well.

And I agree with Notch - man up and start a thread about Ulster's appalling management style if you want to post about it constantly.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:41 pm

No I agree with Sin, I think the other provinces have a lot to learn from Munster's approach here. This proves that they don't take crap from their players. Ulster wouldn't have the balls to pull off a stunt such as this, and to put the players back in their place.

But hey, at least we do seem to have people who can send the correct emails to the correct people. Whistle

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:17 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Just going by the report.

I don't believe any part of it shows the Munster management "take no poopie" from their players.

And it was leaked, so someone's obviously upset.

I see the head of fitness has gone as well.

And I agree with Notch - man up and start a thread about Ulster's appalling management style if you want to post about it constantly.

The most damning stuff from this email seems to be that the players were colour coded into 1st, 2nd & 3rd choice (which means about 15 must be very happy with the document!)

The leak probably came by some player telling his agent who wants a favour from Fanning when renegotiating some contracts with the Provinces/IRFU.

Yes, the fitness coach wasn't kept and Aled Walters (great beard) promoted to head. In fairness, the last two head of fitness guys were exceptionally good apparently.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:22 pm

I see a poster in the know on MF has said there were some very harsh criticisms in the document and that the real issue is that these things weren't what some players were told to their face.

by Don Alfonso Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:24 pm

But I'm bored with this now, to be honest.

At least Munster are appointing guys with beards. Ulster are unsettlingly beardless in their set-up.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:26 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:I see a poster in the know on MF has said there were some very harsh criticisms in the document and that the real issue is that these things weren't what some players were told to their face.

Nope. The poster in the know is 'Burgers'. He isn't saying anything of the sort.

by Sin é Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:27 pm

Notch wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Sin, I don't think it signals the end of Munster rugby. It may well just blow over. I'm not trying to extrapolate this irresponsible mistake to tar Munster as an Empire of Evil.

I just think it's a pretty horrible thing to happen, and the idea of "why does such-and-such a player even have a contract? " as some kind of written assessment is pretty unprofessional. You're more upset that someone touted. Fine.

Your bewildering, unfocused whataboutery references to Ulster's balls-ups are initially amusing, but ultimately exhausting.

I think the Ulster players need to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming the coaches for their shortcomings. Tom Court's interview in thescore (far more reputable than the Sindo) last Friday confirmed that belief to me. Everyone of the coaches get hung out to dry for Ulster's shortcomings starting with McCall, then Matt Williams, McLaughlin and the latest casualty, Anscombe. That isn't a balls up - thats players who should have run out of excuses about 3 coaches back.

Cool, you should start a thread about it then

I don't think its worth starting a thread over.

by **Notch** Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:57 pm

I don't think its worth you trying to change the subject instead of just talking about the topic of this thread, so hopefully we can then agree that we'll stay on topic....

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