Guinness Pro 12. Pathetic excuse for a league?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/guinness-pro12-a-league-of-its-own-and-getting-stronger-all-the-time-1.1915783

It's not that bad. I'm sure if your teams play in it you might get some interest in it.

On a serious note: What it really needs (as the article said) is stability for a few years. Unfortunately it will always have the problem that it's made up of 4 nations with different wants and needs. It doesn't take much to unravel it if they start pulling apart.

Personally I'm very fickle and just watch something that relates to me. I watched it when I lived in Swansea (and enjoyed it even though it's supposed have got 'better'). Since I moved away I haven't bothered. But that's always the way right? (I mean I could never get into Super XIV even when I had Sky Sports).

Glasgow are already there abouts, regions can hopefully get themselves sorted, Connacht seem to be improving all the time and maybe now the Italians are on equal footing their involvement is more cemented and can focus on developing. All in all it looks positive.

Its a non entity of an article with a headline that you are latching onto. It seems to say that things have moved on so that the league actually has its own offices now and that it is tough to run a cross border competition.

Not latching on to anything. I think it's a fair article. The best league in the world will always be the one that your team plays in. With SOME exceptions in Wales.

Personally I watch most of them and my 2nd favourite would be Super Rugby.
I would prefer the English and French leagues to any SH comp below Super Rugby.
They all have their good and bad points.

I will undoubtedly watch more French rugby this year as it's on Sky. (Not because I love sky, simply because I have it)

Hopefully our league can attract a few fans in England with Sky broadcasting them. That would raise the profile of it.

I am feeling fairly optimistic about the GP12 in general.

Maybe the League should have a Rest, put it's feet up for a season or two?

Was wondering how long it would take you.

Be interesting to see how your star studded sugar daddied pretty boys get on up in Glasgow.

(Can we descend into senseless bickering now? or should we wait a few more posts?)

Attendance at games last season just short of 1.2 million? I'm impressed by that for a relatively young league compared to the others.

Nice to see a positive article about the Pro12.

I dont want to be down on any particular rugby league, I just don't think this article helps define where the pro12 (or whatever it is called now) stands.

It just says that its had a tough time finding its feet over the last few years but it is getting better organised. Something that should definitely be applauded

I think it's a canny league , only issue is the doller is in the euro comps not the GP

I wish people would learn to spell Guinness correctly!

Even the Irish don't know how to spell it

Cyril wrote:I wish people would learn to spell Guinness correctly!

Even the Irish don't know how to spell it

Thanks Cyril. My brain knows how to spell it. My fingers don't always obey

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Cyril wrote:I wish people would learn to spell Guinness correctly!

Even the Irish don't know how to spell it

Thanks Cyril. My brain knows how to spell it. My fingers don't always obey

Nice one. You obviously haven't drunk enough.

It is only noon. Give it time

Irish clubs as always will be the torch bearers for the Pro12 but things could be much brighter than they are in the other 3 countries.

I don't think it's helped the league that there has been a talent drain in Wales. It damages the competitiveness of their clubs to not have their best players plying their trade in Wales.

Scotland cannot afford to have the amount of foreigners there are in the Edinburgh team. It weakens the Scottish international side.

Treviso have less than Edinburgh but it doesn't help the Italians either. Talent drain will likely hit them hard too.

When you only have 2 teams serving the international side it is seriously damaging to have too many foreigners. It's not even if they are high profile players who will add to the prestige of the league....

Onto the positives - more to play for with European champions cup places at stake. Should lead to hungrier and less complacent teams. Not easy to predict how things will pan out.

As leagues going - Pro12 is progressing okay though the loss of a large amount of talent to rival leagues is not good. Credit must be given to the leagues for developing this talent but filling the gaps is easier said than done.

I think the European qualification will have a major impact on the league,
ook at the difference in Group Glasgow got over Munster by finish one place higher.
(its not alway going to make an easier group as there is an element of luck eg, Ulster Ospreys, but it is certainly on average more beneficial)

I'm pretty sure the European changes will see a destruction of rugby in Scotland and Italy so not sure how that will be good for the league.

I've seen this line of argument before and don't understand how the agreement on Europe is particularly bad for Scotland and Italy? Certainly from Scotland's perspective with revenue growth from other sources and a guarantee they will receive at least the same I can only see a strengthening of the pro teams.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm pretty sure the European changes will see a destruction of rugby in Scotland and Italy so not sure how that will be good for the league.

Sadly this looks particularly true in the Italians case.

The Scots and Italians were doing a pretty good job of destroying their rugby all by themselves.

Cyril wrote:The Scots and Italians were doing a pretty good job of destroying their rugby all by themselves.

Good riddance then

Neutralee wrote:

Cyril wrote:The Scots and Italians were doing a pretty good job of destroying their rugby all by themselves.

Good riddance then

Not what I said. At least the Italians don't have to pay through the nose for the pleasure to play in the Pro12 anymore.

Er no, but I as a Scot have to pay to support the AP and English football via my BT subs.Not an independence argument btw, just an argument that the English don't understand the interdependencies and cross subsidies that go on in the UK.

justified sinner wrote:Er no, but I as a Scot have to pay to support the AP and English football via my BT subs.Not an independence argument btw, just an argument that the English don't understand the interdependencies and cross subsidies that go on in the UK.

Rather a sweeping statement!

Nobody is forcing you to have a BT subscription. All subscription channels involve a form of cross-subsidisation. Nobody watches everything.

Neutralee wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm pretty sure the European changes will see a destruction of rugby in Scotland and Italy so not sure how that will be good for the league.

Sadly this looks particularly true in the Italians case.

Why?

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm pretty sure the European changes will see a destruction of rugby in Scotland and Italy so not sure how that will be good for the league.

Can't say I agree.

Glasgow will be in the European champions cup - they are the club that is much better run than Edinburgh. They earnt their spot in the competition. Their success in the Pro12 has been rewarded.

Edinburgh is a poorly run club which has performed poorly in the Pro12 for a number of years. It's better to be in a competition where they might stand a chance.


Treviso will be in the European champions cup next season - their talent drain is not that competition's fault.

Zebre should be able to win some games in a competition more suited to their ability - getting beaten in almost every game is not good for confidence.


Non auto qualification will give these clubs who missed out - the motivation they need to improve and succeed.

beshocked wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm pretty sure the European changes will see a destruction of rugby in Scotland and Italy so not sure how that will be good for the league.

Can't say I agree.

Glasgow will be in the European champions cup - they are the club that is much better run than Edinburgh. They earnt their spot in the competition. Their success in the Pro12 has been rewarded.

Edinburgh is a poorly run club which has performed poorly in the Pro12 for a number of years. It's better to be in a competition where they might stand a chance.


Treviso will be in the European champions cup next season - their talent drain is not that competition's fault.

Zebre should be able to win some games in a competition more suited to their ability - getting beaten in almost every game is not good for confidence.

Non auto qualification will give these clubs who missed out - the motivation they need to improve and succeed.

Edinburgh & Zebre will be in competitions that no one will see because of the lack of tv coverage. They may as well not be playing at all if it comes to promoting rugby outside the usual fanbase.

I'd say a lot of teams won't bother their arses in the European Cup because they know they haven't a hope of probably making the knock-out stages and they will get their lump sum anyway. It would probably cost them to compete.

beshocked wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm pretty sure the European changes will see a destruction of rugby in Scotland and Italy so not sure how that will be good for the league.

Can't say I agree.

Glasgow will be in the European champions cup - they are the club that is much better run than Edinburgh. They earnt their spot in the competition. Their success in the Pro12 has been rewarded.

Edinburgh is a poorly run club which has performed poorly in the Pro12 for a number of years. It's better to be in a competition where they might stand a chance.


Treviso will be in the European champions cup next season - their talent drain is not that competition's fault.

Zebre should be able to win some games in a competition more suited to their ability - getting beaten in almost every game is not good for confidence.


Non auto qualification will give these clubs who missed out - the motivation they need to improve and succeed.

Spot on for me.

Sin é wrote:
Edinburgh & Zebre will be in competitions that no one will see because of the lack of tv coverage. They may as well not be playing at all if it comes to promoting rugby outside the usual fanbase.

I'd say a lot of teams won't bother their arses in the European Cup because they know they haven't a hope of probably making the knock-out stages and they will get their lump sum anyway. It would probably cost them to compete.

Disagree, the challenge cup is nowhere near as weak as it is made out to be and is a good competition to win for middle ranked team in their league.

Feel these changes is exactly what the Pro 12 needed, with the Welsh situation sorted (well for now..) the Sky deal as well as Guinness coming on board the competition is looking good.

So - give teams a competetive series of games against opponents outside their league which wont have huge coverage, or put them in games where they will get slaughtered with lots of coverage.

Swings and roundabouts.

VinceWLB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Edinburgh & Zebre will be in competitions that no one will see because of the lack of tv coverage. They may as well not be playing at all if it comes to promoting rugby outside the usual fanbase.

I'd say a lot of teams won't bother their arses in the European Cup because they know they haven't a hope of probably making the knock-out stages and they will get their lump sum anyway. It would probably cost them to compete.

Disagree, the challenge cup is nowhere near as weak as it is made out to be and is a good competition to win for middle ranked team in their league.

Feel these changes is exactly what the Pro 12 needed, with the Welsh situation sorted (well for now..) the Sky deal as well as Guinness coming on board the competition is looking good.

It got sexed up a bit when teams like Leinster, Northampton, Quinns were dropped into it when they didn't make the knock-outs of the HCup, all coming from the top part of their own leagues. Before that, no one could give a fiddlers which is what will happen as no one will even know its gonig on with so little tv coverage.

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm pretty sure the European changes will see a destruction of rugby in Scotland and Italy so not sure how that will be good for the league.

Can't say I agree.

Glasgow will be in the European champions cup - they are the club that is much better run than Edinburgh. They earnt their spot in the competition. Their success in the Pro12 has been rewarded.

Edinburgh is a poorly run club which has performed poorly in the Pro12 for a number of years. It's better to be in a competition where they might stand a chance.


Treviso will be in the European champions cup next season - their talent drain is not that competition's fault.

Zebre should be able to win some games in a competition more suited to their ability - getting beaten in almost every game is not good for confidence.

Non auto qualification will give these clubs who missed out - the motivation they need to improve and succeed.

Edinburgh & Zebre will be in competitions that no one will see because of the lack of tv coverage. They may as well not be playing at all if it comes to promoting rugby outside the usual fanbase.

I'd say a lot of teams won't bother their arses in the European Cup because they know they haven't a hope of probably making the knock-out stages and they will get their lump sum anyway. It would probably cost them to compete.

Sin e surely that should give Edinburgh the much needed incentive to qualify for the European rugby cup?

If you want to play in the bigger competition you have to perform well in the lesser one.

It's not as if Edinburgh are too big or good for the Challenge Cup. If on the off chance they are too good then that's a guaranteed piece of silverware.

No team has a divine right to be in the premier european rugby competition. Qualification must be earnt - not handed out on a platter.

The only way a competition will grow in interest is if people care about it. The European challenge cup is an opportunity to win silverware.

Missing out on a competition should make you hungrier to qualify.

Edinburgh are in a very difficult league in that there are a lot of teams around the same level all fighting for fewer place (a place goes to lower level teams in the league automatically to ensure of their representation in the comp).

The point is about generating interest in the game in Scotland, not raising the standard of the competition.

Just figure how successful the promotion of rugby would be in England if only one English team was in the HCup and the rest in a cup that isn't televised?

How did the old comp in raising the game in Scotland? Surely a Euro comp shouldn't be what you focus on to gain interest. Focus on the fans and what they want. The league is your bread and butter.

Edinburgh and Glasgow should get together to work on a joint strategy.

As with the whole Pro 12 no team will have enough resources to compete with the French so they should treat the league and ERCC as biennial competitions. Edinburgh should focus completely on the league this year to get ahead of Glasgow and qualify for the Cup next year. They will only have the resources to devote to one competition (as they did in the HEC semi-year), so focus on the league and forget about the Challenge Cup.

Glasgow on the other hand should devote all their resources into the ERCC to stand the best chance of winning and forget about diluting their effort by chasing the League as well. Ok it means next year focusing on the League for them but with half the resources it doubles their chances!

Better to work on a strategy to make the best of the situation than sit back and whinge because things have changed

Sin é wrote: The point is about generating interest in the game in Scotland, not raising the standard of the competition.

So IF Edinburgh are in a competition where they should reach the knockout stages that should increase the interest in the game, after all realistically the non-rugby fans wouldn't be watching it on TV anyway, but will probably notice it in the paper etc, when it says Edinburgh make the knockout stages (or however they word it). An extra bonus of it not being on TV is that it will mean that people will actually have to go into the ground, and then (providing there is a good atmosphere) may find that it is a good enjoyable day/afternoon out.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Sin é wrote: The point is about generating interest in the game in Scotland, not raising the standard of the competition.

So IF Edinburgh are in a competition where they should reach the knockout stages that should increase the interest in the game, after all realistically the non-rugby fans wouldn't be watching it on TV anyway, but will probably notice it in the paper etc, when it says Edinburgh make the knockout stages (or however they word it).  An extra bonus of it not being on TV is that it will mean that people will actually have to go into the ground, and then (providing there is a good atmosphere) may find that it is a good enjoyable day/afternoon out.

If a someone isn't going to watch it on TV, are they really going to pay to go to the ground? Why have any rugby on TV at all if the clubs could get far more people at the games by a broadcast ban? Products are advertised on TV for a reason - it stimulates the market and keeps the product in a potential consumer's head.

If Edinburgh want to increase their gates they should focus 100% to get in the League playoffs, with the chance of winning something that isn't a repository for the also-rans.

They would also be on tele if they make the quarter finals of the Challenge Cup. More if they make the semi, and a lot more than if they make the final. If no-one else is bothering it should make it easy.

Sin é wrote: Edinburgh are in a very difficult league in that there are a lot of teams around the same level all fighting for fewer place (a place goes to lower level teams in the league automatically to ensure of their representation in the comp).

The point is about generating interest in the game in Scotland, not raising the standard of the competition.

Just figure how successful the promotion of rugby would be in England if only one English team was in the HCup and the rest in a cup that isn't televised?

Why are they in a difficult league? Of the three leagues they are in the one from which it is easiest to qualify. Seven rather than six automatic places and eighth and ninth places in a playoff rather than just seventh.

I live not far from Edinburgh. Typically I watch Peebles but occasionally I watch Edinburgh. I am more likely to watch them in the league now that there is something to play for and I can be reasonably sure that both teams will field strong sides.

Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument. Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument.  Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

Connacht have had plenty of home games where the TMO has been available.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument.  Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

Connacht have had plenty of home games where the TMO has been available.  

Dorothy,

I thought that must have been the case especially in European games it would have had to have been a must surely. But again surely it should be available every game across the board if teams lose points to out there due to no TMO and lets say on same day another team get the points due to a TMO decision then thats unfair

Of course it's pathetic. Munster - pathetic. Leinster - pathetic. It's a shyte league.................... until next week hopefully.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument.  Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

TMOs. When we have them, nobody wants them. When we don't have them, we want them.....

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument.  Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

Connacht have had plenty of home games where the TMO has been available.  

Dorothy,

I thought that must have been the case especially in European games it would have had to have been a must surely.  But again surely it should be available every game across the board if teams lose points to out there due to no TMO and lets say on same day another team get the points due to a TMO decision then thats unfair

I know Glasgow games up till last season, only had TMO's if the TV was covering the game. I do agree that ideally all games should have the TMO, but I don't think its that big an issue to be honest.

SecretFly wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument.  Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

TMOs.  When we have them, nobody wants them.  When we don't have them, we want them.....

Wrong in a sense. There is always TMO if the game is being televised, if there isn't then there's no TMO. Connacht just suffer from having less of their home games televised.

Personally think the TMO is becoming more of a curse than a benefit. There was an incident in the Scarlets vs Ulster game where McCusker went in slightly late on Humphreys when he was clearing from his 22. No harm done as Humphreys bounced back up and the kicks trajectory wasn't affected. Play went on for more than full minute until Ulster knocked on on the Scarlets 22. Bloody ref went allllll the way back to look at the late hit, which wasn't even that bad, and everyone is standing around waiting. Then you have them checking the disallowed try for five minutes before feeling they have to disallow it on the most spurious grounds otherwise it will have been a waste of time. So the TMO is being used and major decisions are still being gotten wrong.

The first half of that game took 50 minutes. A 40 minute half taking 50 minutes to play out due to TMO referrals. It's enough to make you envious of Connacht! That just shows the TMO has gone too far and its use needs to be scaled right back again.

If there was a TMO for the Dragons V Connacht game last weekend I think the Dragons would have won that game.

LordDowlais wrote:If there was a TMO for the Dragons V Connacht game last weekend I think the Dragons would have won that game.

If there wasn't a TMO Ulster might have beaten the Scarlets.

SecretFly wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument.  Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

TMOs.  When we have them, nobody wants them.  When we don't have them, we want them.....

I am not bothered either way whether we have them or not but it should be a level playing field across the board.