New deals could see Welsh exiles come home

Well, according to Tom Shanklin the new dual contracts where the WRU pay 60% and the regions pay 40% could tempt some of the Welsh players playing in England and France to come home, but if they were to come home, who would decide which region they would play for ? Would each region put in a request for the position they need filled the most, then the WRU would decide where they go ? Or would it be down to the player ? As much as I would like to see our best players back in Wales, I can only see this getting messy. What do we all think about this ?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/29322706

Its messy, convoluted and half baked. Will probably end in tears like most things the WRU touch.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Its messy, convoluted and half baked. Will probably end in tears like most things the WRU touch.

At the end of the day it is the player who is coming home so I would like to think they would let the player himself decide ultimately, but if the region he wants do not want him, then I would suggest the WRU then take control and offer him to other regions. This seems the fairest way of doing it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Its messy, convoluted and half baked. Will probably end in tears like most things the WRU touch.

At the end of the day it is the player who is coming home so I would like to think they would let the player himself decide ultimately, but if the region he wants do not want him, then I would suggest the WRU then take control and offer him to other regions. This seems the fairest way of doing it.

Also what if the Region a player wanted to go to had a current International there in their position then that could complicate things. If they were to come home can the Dragons have Paul James please.

They have an independent chair to cast the vote on these things now.

The problem is now the WRU are dictating to regions when they can play their dual contracted players, such as Sam Warburton who has a limit of 16 games per season. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29314948

Which is actually not to bad in this case because Warburton usually plays less than that for the Blues anyway, but a more consistent player might get frustrated sitting on the side lines, and what happens when a player who plays week in week out gets told they cant play because the WRU wants their player to have game time?

IronMike wrote:The problem is now the WRU are dictating to regions when they can play their dual contracted players, such as Sam Warburton who has a limit of 16 games per season. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29314948

Which is actually not to bad in this case because Warburton usually plays less than that for the Blues anyway, but a more consistent player might get frustrated sitting on the side lines, and what happens when a player who plays week in week out gets told they cant play because the WRU wants their player to have game time?

16 won't apply to all. Other players will have higher agreed limits.

IronMike wrote:The problem is now the WRU are dictating to regions when they can play their dual contracted players, such as Sam Warburton who has a limit of 16 games per season. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29314948

Which is actually not to bad in this case because Warburton usually plays less than that for the Blues anyway, but a more consistent player might get frustrated sitting on the side lines, and what happens when a player who plays week in week out gets told they cant play because the WRU wants their player to have game time?

IM,

One of those players who does get frustrated when he doesn't play is Faletau. If he had his way he would play every game he could and I know both Lyn and Kingsley have regular ummm lets say debates lol, with him about resting him etc.

IronMike wrote:The problem is now the WRU are dictating to regions when they can play their dual contracted players, such as Sam Warburton who has a limit of 16 games per season. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29314948

Which is actually not to bad in this case because Warburton usually plays less than that for the Blues anyway, but a more consistent player might get frustrated sitting on the side lines, and what happens when a player who plays week in week out gets told they cant play because the WRU wants their player to have game time?

Does the 16 games include everything ? Europe and the league ? What about international games, does the 16 limit include them as well ?

All it would mean is that Welsh players stay in Wales.

Doesn't really help given that a team like Cardiff will play potentially 24 pro12 matches and 9 European Cup games.

Still means they will get their players for less than they used to and will have to fund more players/have larger squads to get through the season.

They will have more money mind but 40% of say Halfpenny's contract is still probably 100% of what they would have paid before say he's on 500k at Toulon... if they want him back they may have to shelve out 200k to get him for 16 games whereas last season they probably had him for the same money but for as many as they'd like.

I'm not convinced it would help the clubs that much if it meant big earners like Lydiate, Roberts, Halfpenny and Davies came back to Wales (assuming they would want the same contract sizes).

It is a job, the players will decide where they want to play, unless their preferred choice is a region that doesn't want them.

We could see it the other way around, players now realising they could make the same money, but do it in their own country, and now not enough regions to go around for them all, their might be a demand for places at the regions.

surely the WRU's pot hasn't increased that much. Say a player can make £500k in France but £200k in Wales.

Will will the WRU have to match to keep the players. Say its £300k extra per player then that's 3MM for say the top 10 players. That's a lot of cash in rugby terms so unless they have come into much more money longterm.

The WRU may think 500k for halfpenny is good value but Cardiff may think 200k for a chap I only get for 16 games when they could spend the same on a PI player willing to play 30 games its not as great.

Difficult one for the clubs I think.

I think there will be a limit what the WRU are willing to pay, I cannot see them matching the Toulon's of this world, but it could see the the George North's and the Paul James's of this world staying and not going to English clubs, which would stop most of them leaving and tempt some to come back. Look at how many players have left Wales to play for Bristol, it has got so bad that we cannot compete with the second tier in England.

£2M isn't going to go far if paying 60% of the big player's wages. If it's £300k per big name it would only be 6 and a bit players. Then the guys behind them may assume two things:

1) They're not going to get a dual contract as there is no money left
2) There's a good chance the dual contract players are going to get selected regardless of form.

This could well see 2nd/3rd choice guys leaving.

Also, isn't Warburton still on a full WRU contract? Therefore the Blues aren't paying anything for him? 16 games isn't bad on that front. The issue with hard and fast limits is if they get to any finals they have to be planned in advance. Or the rule could be '16 normal games, not including playoffs'. Then you would have him playing all of the European games and nearly half the league games...for free. Given that he's missing for several league games anyway it's only being rested for a handful.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Its messy, convoluted and half baked. Will probably end in tears like most things the WRU touch.

At the end of the day it is the player who is coming home so I would like to think they would let the player himself decide ultimately, but if the region he wants do not want him, then I would suggest the WRU then take control and offer him to other regions. This seems the fairest way of doing it.

Also what if the Region a player wanted to go to had a current International there in their position then that could complicate things.  If they were to come home can the Dragons have Paul James please.

We (apparently) nearly did. If this mess had been sorted sooner, I think we would've done.

HammerofThunor wrote:£2M isn't going to go far if paying 60% of the big player's wages. If it's £300k per big name it would only be 6 and a bit players.  Then the guys behind them may assume two things:

1) They're not going to get a dual contract as there is no money left
2) There's a good chance the dual contract players are going to get selected regardless of form.

This could well see 2nd/3rd choice guys leaving.

Also, isn't Warburton still on a full WRU contract? Therefore the Blues aren't paying anything for him? 16 games isn't bad on that front. The issue with hard and fast limits is if they get to any finals they have to be planned in advance. Or the rule could be '16 normal games, not including playoffs'.  Then you would have him playing all of the European games and nearly half the league games...for free.  Given that he's missing for several league games anyway it's only being rested for a handful.

I do not think we would see 2nd coice players leaving, they would be needed when the dual contract players are being rested, if they get offered more money in England or France though, the 3rd choice will become 2nd choice, there are not that many pro players left in Wales, this why wee need to stem the tide of those who are leaving.

Risca Rev wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Its messy, convoluted and half baked. Will probably end in tears like most things the WRU touch.

At the end of the day it is the player who is coming home so I would like to think they would let the player himself decide ultimately, but if the region he wants do not want him, then I would suggest the WRU then take control and offer him to other regions. This seems the fairest way of doing it.

Also what if the Region a player wanted to go to had a current International there in their position then that could complicate things.  If they were to come home can the Dragons have Paul James please.

We (apparently) nearly did. If this mess had been sorted sooner, I think we would've done.

He would have been a good signing for the Dragons, ah well maybe next season.

Test players could play 12 International matches every year (more next year), so restricting them to no more than say 10 League games and 6 ERCC games is probably sensible given that there could be an additional 5 playoff games on top of that.

The benefits for the:
Union - will have players available for camps when they need them and there is a better chance they will be fresh for the Test matches
- the Test players will be far more used to playing with each other at regional level
- stronger regions create more grassroots interest
- National coaches can compare candidates who are playing against each other regularly
- there will be fewer foreign imports into the regions to reduce the selection pool

Regions - can attract homegrown players back for home fans and build better gates
- will have better quality players playing for them rather than against them in European encounters
- will have added intensity in derby games

Union contracted Players - will probably be happier at home
- can potentially earn more by having more salable marketing rights
- will not be flogged in the League so less likely to get injured
- return from injury can be better managed
- personal development can be managed much easier

Non-Union contracted players - will have Welsh role models to learn from
- will get more games and so develop faster
- can compete directly with Test players for places

HammerofThunor wrote:£2M isn't going to go far if paying 60% of the big player's wages. If it's £300k per big name it would only be 6 and a bit players.  Then the guys behind them may assume two things:

1) They're not going to get a dual contract as there is no money left
2) There's a good chance the dual contract players are going to get selected regardless of form.

This could well see 2nd/3rd choice guys leaving.

Also, isn't Warburton still on a full WRU contract? Therefore the Blues aren't paying anything for him? 16 games isn't bad on that front. The issue with hard and fast limits is if they get to any finals they have to be planned in advance. Or the rule could be '16 normal games, not including playoffs'.  Then you would have him playing all of the European games and nearly half the league games...for free.  Given that he's missin,g for several league games anyway it's only being rested for a handful.

Hammer, I think you misunderstand WRUburton on his CC was on £275000, if his DC is for the same amount, the WRU would be paying 60% of that and the Regions 40%, with the WRU having £2M and the Regions £1.3M, if they paid all the players the same amount it would be 12 players on DC, and if there is one player that will want more than 16 games it is AWJ apparently he was not happy to be left out in our opening game against Treviso.
Dragons fans you can dream all you like Paul James is coming home, if we had known about the calibre of loose head props left behind he wouldn't have gone in the first place

The Great Aukster wrote:Test players could play 12 International matches every year (more next year), so restricting them to no more than say 10 League games and 6 ERCC games is probably sensible given that there could be an additional 5 playoff games on top of that.

The benefits for the:
Union - will have players available for camps when they need them and there is a better chance they will be fresh for the Test matches
- the Test players will be far more used to playing with each other at regional level
- stronger regions create more grassroots interest
- National coaches can compare candidates who are playing against each other regularly
- there will be fewer foreign imports into the regions to reduce the selection pool

Regions - can attract homegrown players back for home fans and build better gates
- will have better quality players playing for them rather than against them in European encounters
- will have added intensity in derby games

Union contracted Players - will probably be happier at home
- can potentially earn more by having more salable marketing rights
- will not be flogged in the League so less likely to get injured
- return from injury can be better managed
- personal development can be managed much easier

Non-Union contracted players - will have Welsh role models to learn from
- will get more games and so develop faster
- can compete directly with Test players for places

You've convinced me. If for no other reasons than your impeccable layout and the fact that I do so love a bullet pointed list.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Regions - can attract homegrown players back for home fans and build better gates

and sell more season tickets perhaps. Like Jonah Lomu?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:
Regions - can attract homegrown players back for home fans and build better gates

and sell more season tickets perhaps. Like Jonah Lomu?

Infact, I reckon, if more of the Welsh internationals came home to play at the regions, then ticket sales would go up.

The dual contract players should be available for every home league game and rested for away games in scotland/ireland. SW didn't play against Ulster at home but now plays away at Leinster? Which game would you have thought we were more likely to win?

gcBlues wrote:The dual contract players should be available for every home league game and rested for away games in scotland/ireland. SW didn't play against Ulster at home but now plays away at Leinster? Which game would you have thought we were more likely to win?

Agree 100%, surely the best players should be kept for their OWN fans to watch them, anyway, I think Navidi is the better 7 at regional level, Warburton does not play with the same intensity for the Blues as he does for Wales.

I agree although it's good we've got him guaranteed for 16 games this season...it'll be the most he's ever played i think.

Then again, he'll no doubt get injured on Tim Wales duty so Ellis and Josh have to pick up the slack until late January when he's parachuted back in at their expense to get fitness before the six nations. Where he'll get injured again and play no part in the remainder of the season.

I could be wrong though...

gcBlues wrote:I agree although it's good we've got him guaranteed for 16 games this season...it'll be the most he's ever played i think.

Then again, he'll no doubt get injured on Tim Wales duty so Ellis and Josh have to pick up the slack until late January when he's parachuted back in at their expense to get fitness before the six nations. Where he'll get injured again and play no part in the remainder of the season.

I could be wrong though...

You could be wrong, if the last few seasons are anything to go by, the Blues are just a warm up for team Wales for Warburton, who spends most of his time either playing international rugby or rehabbing injuries. I'm certain he played less than 10 games for the Blues last season but managed to miraculously be cured for Wales matches.