Lennox Lewis - The 2nd best fighter in Heavy history ???

Head to head.....

Obviously he's not 2nd on my ATG list but I was thinking the other day that I'd fancy his chances against any Heavy in history...Ali would only be 60-40...

Huge, Decent speed, Quality jab and lot's of power..Lennox was very gifted.....Also his defeats tended to happen against fighters that were viewed as chaff....He always rose to the big occasion..

Where as Lenny boy is between 10-15 on my list....

For me he's the second best "fighter"...Closely followed by Tyson....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Head to head.....

Obviously he's not 2nd on my ATG list but I was thinking the other day that I'd fancy his chances against any Heavy in history...Ali would only be 60-40...

Huge, Decent speed, Quality jab and lot's of power..Lennox was very gifted.....Also his defeats tended to happen against fighters that were viewed as chaff....He always rose to the big occasion..

Where as Lenny boy is between 10-15 on my list....

For me he's the second best "fighter"...Closely followed by Tyson....

This is a great post. When I said Louis wasn't the 2nd best heavy I meant on head to head. Obviously Joe has a fantastic record on paper.
Does anybody think a louis or Frazier and Foreman has any chance against big Lewis other than a punchers chance? He would box the ears off them and probably knock them out.

Joe hasn't got a fantastic record on paper..If he has then so has Calzaghe...

What he's got is a complete grip on the title for ten years....Supreme dominance.

and that's enough for 2nd...

Big fan of Lewis back in the day but nah, not second best. A faded Holyfield gave him fits. I think a younger, fresher Holyfeild would have beaten him. I think Tyson at his best beats him too.

Yeah Frazier, Foreman and Louis only a punchers chance against Lewis......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Joe hasn't got a fantastic record on paper..If he has then so has Calzaghe...

What he's got is a complete grip on the title for ten years....Supreme dominance.

and that's enough for 2nd...

thats what I meant. Don't mean the names on his record. Mean he has great longevity as a champion

I'd fancy Prime Evil Mike Tyson to beat Lennox... But I agree, one of those guys who's gifts - physical, Coaching etc mean he is a fearsome foe for anyone. Think you're right, and he's there thereabouts in every fight, except the ones he gets knocked early.

Younger, fresher Holy was slapped by Bowe..

Am sure we did a list of head 2 head rankings for various divisions a while back (think it was Shah that put them together). If I remember rightly, I had Lewis at 2 behind Ali and don't think I was alone in that.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Younger, fresher Holy was slapped by Bowe..

Maybe Bowe should be second on your list then.....

Great Pseudo-minds think a like supey.

Indeed, Truss, and pseudo fools seldom differ. It's why Strongy and Steffan see eye to eye on everything.

Very true.....

No Bowe isn't second for me 5-10 though..

1. Ali
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Holmes
5. Liston
6.Vitali
7. Bowe
8. Holyfield
9.Louis
10. Frazier

Dempsey and Johnson and the like wouldn't beat modern heavies imo. They were tough men but the sport evolved loads over the years.

They were both far more than tough men, I suppose Tunney was just a tough man too?

that list I done was off top of my head. I stand by my top 4 though.

Sorry Truss disagree mate. Think a prime Iron Mike gives him hell. I would also stretch to say Vitali would as well. Prime for prime.

Annoyingly though none of us will ever know which kind of frustrates me

Vitali wouldn't cause Lewis at his best too many problems, the best of Vitali couldn't get past the worst of Lewis and prime for prime he'd take far more punches and land far fewer while still fatiguing compared to Lewis not.

Vitali wasn't at his best either Hammer let's give him some credit. He took the fight at 2 weeks notice against the best heavyweight on earth and gave him absolute nightmares .

I think prime vs prime would have been an absolute brilliant even fight.

But that's just my opinion.

Ooh... it's on now!!

Vitali was at his best, he took the fight on short notice but it was a fight he had been preparing for for years and giving the worst of Lewis problems but still getting cut to shreds doesn't bode well. Unfortunately he just wasn't that good and only got through because of his toughness against a Lewis who had no co-ordination and wasn't punching with full power because of it.

Only got through on his toughness yet he was winning on every scorecard.

Suppose mayweather wins on toughness all the time.

Everyone prepares for Floyd at welter then I take it? But when they are scheduled to fight Juan Marquez and he pulls out then 2 weeks later your in with the best in your division its supposed to be ok because your prepared?!

Saying that, Vitali did alright then having been ahead when it stopped so fair play. Imagine if he had time to prep?!

Imagine if Lewis then had time to prepare for Vitali, it's an excuse that just doesn't wash, without his toughness he gets taken out in the 6th round.

All the excuses you can make for Vitali also apply to Lewis but he was years older and quite clearly wasn't in shape whereas Vitali was.

Lennox is probably my favourite heavy. At one point I really thought he was going to become THE best heavy given his attributes. What I found remarkable is that every now and then he would put in a performance that was near perfect destruction... And then struggle in the next or have a "Rahman" moment.

I'm not sure what he was playing at in Holly 2, he should have bulldozed him to make a point of the initial draw as I thought he had it in him, but if anything the second fight was a much tighter scorecard and created further doubt.

For every Ruddock, Grant, Botha and Galota there was a Bruno, Mercer , McCall and Rahman.

The trouble with Lennox in a head to head is guaranteeing that even a "prime" Lennox had the right head on and was in destructive mood. If so then I would agree he had it all and I'd back him against all but Ali, even in that one I wouldn't back heavily against him. Consistency wasn't Lennox's strong point though.

Confident and cocky in the early years and more complete but cautious in the latter Manny years, if only he had taken a little more of his early arrogant belief into a few of his later fights I think he may have won them more decisively.

I've never quite got this preparing for years argument. It simply doesn't float. You do get into a lot of pseudo science when discussing the Klitschkos... How does one prepare years for a fight? Surely it could only be mental preparation? You think because in 2001 Vitali wanted a fight with Lewis he was preparing for a fight with 5'10 Orlin Norris by sparring with 6'5. guys to get ready for Lewis? Did he prepare for a fight with Purrity by working on facing the Lewis Ramrod jab? Or was he he preparing for his bout with Cedric Boswell by working on finding a way round the Lewis right hand? Or are you just trying to say he went for his morning swims imagining himself facing Lewis?

Who cares hammer. The same applies for Vitali mate. You can't say Vitali got through by toughness...that's ridiculous.

If anything, Lewis showed toughness to get to the 6th because he had his head punched in for the first few rounds! Any heavy would have been sparked.

If they were both in prime condition, prepared for one another etc the it would have been great. It was anyway. I loved every round of their fight.

But boxing is a massive mental game as well,you cant expect to go in against the very best at just a fortnight notice and expect to do well. Hence why he was a massive under dog going into it...yet came out with a massive reputation as being one fantastic boxer and tough son of a bi**h. No wonder lewis retired, he clearly couldn't be bothered any more and didn't fancy a tough night.

Either or, I'm not slating anywyone, I just think it's harsh your saying he got through on toughness.

A lot of it is mental preparation, all roads led to Lewis as is the way when you are the top dog, Lewis on the other hand at that stage of his career for preparing for retirement. You develop yourself as a boxer to beat the best but when you are the best and have beaten the best you're not necessarily at the top of your game.

Vitali wasn't capable of doing anything different and would always have fought the same way fighting Lewis, we're not talking about a young boxer on the way up here.

I don't think either was particularly prepared. I just think Vit was more focused, fresh and up for it whilst Lewis walked into the ring nonchalant and "cold" (as observed at the time), suggesting his pre-fight nap had gone on too long and he hadn't even warmed up enough for the fight.

Floyd is also thinking of retirement mate but his performances have still been shutouts. So because Maidana won a few rounds, we should just say he got through by being a tough cookie and Floyd is retiring soon so his mind wasn't the same....years ago he would have knocked him out etc.

I personally don't buy it. I can see your point of view, I just don't agree personally.

I think vitali gave him fits because he is a tough cookie and a brilliant fighter. If he prepared longer he could have done better...who knows.

mobilemaster8 wrote:Who cares hammer. The same applies for Vitali mate. You can't say Vitali got through by toughness...that's ridiculous.

If anything, Lewis showed toughness to get to the 6th because he had his head punched in for the first few rounds! Any heavy would have been sparked.

If they were both in prime condition, prepared for one another etc the it would have been great. It was anyway. I loved every round of their fight.

But boxing is a massive mental game as well,you cant expect to go in against the very best at just a fortnight notice and expect to do well. Hence why he was a massive under dog going into it...yet came out with a massive reputation as being one fantastic boxer and tough son of a bi**h. No wonder lewis retired, he clearly couldn't be bothered any more and didn't fancy a tough night.

Either or, I'm not slating anywyone, I just think it's harsh your saying he got through on toughness.

Tua and Mavrovic both saw the final bell on toughness, it wasn't there boxing ability that did it and Vitali was winning the fight he wasn't however punching Lewis' head in.

Again every excuse you're making for Vitali applies to Lewis, he was 38 years old for christ sake and had beaten everybody he wanted to beat; from Holyfield to Grant to Tua to Tyson and to his redemption over Rahman. Vitali was just another fight for him and it's been blown into this big massive defining fight which it wasn't.

The only reason it was a good fight was because Lewis wasn't on it, his co-ordination was awful, his footwork was non-existent and his stamina was woeful, all he had was the nous to hone in on one specific weakness and from then on make mince meat out of Vitali's face.

mobilemaster8 wrote:Floyd is also thinking of retirement mate but his performances have still been shutouts. So because Maidana won a few rounds, we should just say he got through by being a tough cookie and Floyd is retiring soon so his mind wasn't the same....years ago he would have knocked him out etc.

I personally don't buy it. I can see your point of view, I just don't agree personally.

I think vitali gave him fits because he is a tough cookie and a brilliant fighter. If he prepared longer he could have done better...who knows.

What we'll do here is only ever consider the 38 year old version of Lewis and not him at his best but at the same time we'll consider Vitali at his best which he was anyway but add a mythical non-existent ability he never preceded to show.

The difference is Mayweather has a $200mil cheque to worry about and is far too concerned with his 0 to ever enter a fight at anything less 100%, there were no big money fights left for Lewis just regular paydays.

I never once said it was a defining fight. I just said it would have been better had vitali been mentally prepared. It might not have been. If people think that's a defining fight then thats up to them. I just think vitali would have given him fits had he prepared properly....even if lewis had too.

The point of this article isn't to consider Lewis at 38 years of age but to consider him at his absolute best which is far too good for Vitali.

Maidana arrived late, prepared late, dressed late warmed up late... do we add an * to Floyd's win then? Klitschko's changed big time since that night, and was quite different before as well. He saw a softish Lewis and decided to make a beeline for him. He most likely wouldn't have fought that way against an in shape Lewis. It's all good pointing out that Vitali was the younger fighter, but up until then, his toughest battle was against his own shoulder vs Byrd. Lewis had gone in with the who's who of 90s boxing, he had the championship wherewithal, Vitali didn't.

What preceding fights would have given him that championship wherewithal then Raf?

His fights with Williams, Peter and Gomez or maybe its his fights with Adamek, Johnson and Chisora, wait no it would have been his fight with Sanders wouldn't it?

In what way did Vitali change, he's fought the same way his whole career, he had a golden chance to beat the best and came up short.

I still don't buy the mental prep mumbo jumbo. If Thurman had a fight against Brandon Ríos on a Mayweather card, and took the Mayweather fight on two weeks notice, absolutely no one would argue that because he's said he'll fight Mayweather before, he has in fact been training for half a decade for this fight.

But yet RAF, in hammers mind, if Thurman went on to get major success against Floyd , be winning in the cards after being stopped by a cut, its because he is tough...not skilled....or anything.

Thurman would have success because of his ability, toughness wouldn't get you anywhere against Mayweather.

Vitali just isn't that good, chuck him in against the fabled peak prime Mike Tyson and he gets annihilated.

I'm not doubting he wouldn't get annihilated by a peak iron mike.

But you have to have some element of skill to be beating the world champion by a good couple of rounds having prepared for 2 weeks. Not too shabby in my eyes mate.

Bit more than toughness or does Floyd just rank higher in the all time list in comparison to lewis?

I'm failing to see the relevance Mayweather has to all this.

If you want to cream yourself over Vitali getting beaten by the worst version of Lennox Lewis then go ahead, it's akin to thinking Marciano or Holmes are the greatest for beating the shells of Louis and Ali.

Well lewis was at the top of the division unified champ considered the best....and vitali at 2 weeks notice was beating him on all the scorecards and gave him a nightmare scrap.

You said that was because of being tough and nothing more.

May weather is currently in the same boat is he not? Coming to retirement...top of his division...considered the best.

So if Thurman fought him at 2 weeks notice and gave him an absolute nightmare and was leading before being stopped on a cut....I think fans would be saying 'jesus, imagain if Thurman had a full 8-10 week training camp studying floyd?! If he can do that in just 2 weeks prep.... "

I'm sure they won't just brush it off as toughness..

I'm not creaming over anyone, I just said I think the fight would have been great had the both been in their prime.

I'd like to see Klitschko vs Tyson. Vitali is quite literally teak tough. eight world championships across two Martial arts. Only thing that's detonated that chin was a rather massive hooked kick.

You're only looking at it from the point of view of Vitali having more preparation, what about Lewis being at his best how the hell does a one dimensional plodder trouble him?

Lewis and Mayweather aren't the same person stupid as that is to say so it's a pretty crap comparison.

Rahman troubled and rather good lewis...as did McCall mate...so vitali has every chance to be honest.

But in all seriousness, I also said it would have been a better fight had a better in shape lewis been there as well so i have not dismissed anything at all. I just said I think vitali beats him prime for prime...nothing more than that.

I also compared them both because apart from the names and the weights, I have just mentioned the exact same scenario but you pass it off as nothing.

Lewis was top of the pack, coming to retirement and losing his focus and he had a nightmare with an upcoming challenger at 2 weeks notice.

Floyd is the same but if Thurman did the same as vitali did, would people be saying what your saying about Lewis?

I'm not so sure to be honest but that's just me mate

No clue... might ask the multi dimensional Rahman. Although I believe Lewis was also dizzy or something in that bout

No king, I think rahman was just tough and nothing more. So was mccall.

Both of this are also highly talented technical masterminds as well, not one dimensional like vitali...errrrrr....

Nobody beats Lewis, ever!!!! apart from the two ordinary heavies who knocked him bandy obviously.

Lewis does not lose against Plodders though rowley. We all know Rahman and McCall were Sugar Ray esque....

Still not seeing the relevance at all, they are two completely different people with completely different mindsets; Lewis set out to prove his dominance which he did whereas Mayweather seemingly just wants the easy pay cheques. No two situations are ever the same and to trouble Mayweather you need to be on your game and pretty damn good, to trouble a Lewis who no longer cared yo don't.

Lewis bizarrely struggled with people smaller than him, those who measured up physically he tended to steamroll and Rahman/McCall finished the fights with one punch something Vitali couldn't do.

If compare polar opposites then a fight will appear to be closer than it probably would have been, ie. the worst of Lewis against the best of Vitali.

There's brilliant former heavyweight champions out there like Frazier, Louis, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Holmes and Holyfield but somehow you think a man he actually beat would beat him. By all means say Foreman marches him down or Louis times him to death but Vitali flipping Klitschko.

I rate the guy I really do, but there are occasions on here he gets almost as many excuses offered up as PRIME Mike Tyson. At his best he was a fantastic fighter, but lets be right about this, if the likes of Rahman or McCall can detach him from his senses really not out of leftfield to suggest Vitali can do likewise.

If he could he would have done, we're not exactly talking about two fighters who didn't face each other are we, Lewis clearly could take his punch but he couldn't take the punch of Rahman or McCall.