Coventry Wasps?

apologies if already covered elsewhere, but a number of stories appearing indicating that the owners behind Wasps (who officially dropped the "London" from their name at the start of the season) are tabling a serious bid to take control of the Ricoh stadium in Coventry. Apparently local councillors (as mentioned in the "sub-walled" Times) are against the idea, but Wasps management are confident of getting Council approval. As part of the relocation plans, they intend to keep a training base in West London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11137539/Wasps-close-in-on-30m-deal-to-take-over-Ricoh-Arena-and-move-to-Coventry.html

Yeah, I had seen something on that. I think it was Dean Ryan (is he still at Worcester) as it's in Worcester's 'region'.

I didn't realise they were effectively buying the stadium though. Good luck to them if it does happen but I can't help but wonder about their current fans (about 80 miles between the two stadia). Also pretty darn close to Leicester and Northampton.

South from Coventry there is probably some space.

Relatives in Oxford used to travel to see Wasps. Lets face it the current Oxford residents arent worth much attention at the moment.

Hey guys this looks like it could really happen. It could be as close as a vote away on Tuesday by Coventry City Council. Could you please sign the following petition:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/394/130/032/keep-wasps-rfc-inaround-london/

We need all the support we can get from the rugby family.

Thanks,
James

There's a good number of clubs on the Coventry area which would help establish a new fan base. Coventry RFC used to be a decent side but does off in the pro era. Could be a good home for Wasps but it's a big move and a big stadium to fill. Won't be easy to make it feel like home.

Coventry City back at the Ricoh now?

Isn't there already a Championship team in Coventry? What do they make of this?

Absolutely signed it Blog. Coventry is far too close for comfort. In fact I'm so passionate in my support for your cause that I'm planning to start another petition to ship them to an even better home. I hear the rugby community in Alaska is thriving at the minute

The Ricoh, Coventry City and all the parties involved seem to be an unbelievably messy and bad situation all around. I cannot believe we are getting involved. Let alone in a city 100 miles away from our home in West London. I'd love to expand but we know as much as the stories we read in the paper.

Last I heard Coventry city had agreed a move back there.

Can't see why wasps would want to move up here. Basically giving the middle finger to their current fans.

I'm assuming the circumstances and timing must be right on the financial aspects of this particular deal in Coventry, but on a more general note I do find it curious that past and present quite often relocating top London clubs have never made a particular point of finding a home in the south or east regions of the city, instead of always staying clustered in the west & north and competing for a very similar general local London catchment area.  There is a lot of school and club rugby played in Kent, Essex & Sussex that a south/east based London club could draw untapped high disposable income support from.

timhen wrote:I'm assuming the circumstances and timing must be right on the financial aspects of this particular deal in Coventry, but on a more general note I do find it curious that past and present quite often relocating top London clubs have never made a particular point of finding a home in the south or east regions of the city, instead of always staying clustered in the west & north and competing for a very similar general local London catchment area.  There is a lot of school and club rugby played in Kent, Essex & Sussex that a south/east based London club could draw untapped high disposable income support from.

All that is true but nobody wants a new stadium in their leafy suburb. The only reason Wasps are moving is that the local council, no doubt reflecting local opinion, would not let Wasps build a new stadium.

Aren't Quins south of central London?

As Chelsea have found out mere cash doesn't mean you can get a stadium in the capital. Land is at such a premium that planning permission is nigh on impossible as there's never enough room for the associated amenities the local councils demand.

Why settle for Coventry? If they moved a bit further up the map they could rebrand themselves as Wolverhampton Wasps...

Joking aside though what a massive FU to their fans

This proposed move has really pi$$ed off the fans, even those based in Wycombe. For many London based fans (like myself), who already face a lengthy, and expensive, journey Coventry is a step too far - we simply won't go.

It already costs me £21 to get to Wycombe and back. Coventry will be more than double that.


At least I can watch Ealing in National 1.

Yes, Coventry City FC are now back at the Ricoh.

Exiledinborders wrote:

timhen wrote:I'm assuming the circumstances and timing must be right on the financial aspects of this particular deal in Coventry, but on a more general note I do find it curious that past and present quite often relocating top London clubs have never made a particular point of finding a home in the south or east regions of the city, instead of always staying clustered in the west & north and competing for a very similar general local London catchment area.  There is a lot of school and club rugby played in Kent, Essex & Sussex that a south/east based London club could draw untapped high disposable income support from.

All that is true but nobody wants a new stadium in their leafy suburb. The only reason Wasps are moving is that the local council, no doubt reflecting local opinion, would not let Wasps build a new stadium.

Kent is my neck of the woods, would love to see a Premiership side down here personally, but don't know if the general interest is there to sustain a fan base.

What happens to the London Double Header?
if Wasps go to Coventry, then there won't be 4 'London' teams.
Invite a 4th club as a guest?

This just seems like such a bad idea.

Coventry already has a famous old club, just below the Championship, the area is already carved up between Worcester, Northampton and Leicester fans. On top of that is sounds like the existing supporter base aren't happy either!

Plus, Wasps' average attendance is about 6000 at the moment? You have to believe that this will go down by a couple of thousand. Imagine around 4000 people rattling around a 32,000 seater stadium. No atmosphere, no match day experience. Sounds ridiculous.

Kent always seemed like a good fit to me, there are professional clubs in North and West London, but the South East seems entirely under represented.

Cumbrian wrote:This just seems like such a bad idea.

Coventry already has a famous old club, just below the Championship, the area is already carved up between Worcester, Northampton and Leicester fans.  On top of that is sounds like the existing supporter base aren't happy either!

Plus, Wasps' average attendance is about 6000 at the moment?  You have to believe that this will go down by a couple of thousand.  Imagine around 4000 people rattling around a 32,000 seater stadium.  No atmosphere, no match day experience.  Sounds ridiculous.

I agree. Doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Wasps are a west London club. And many of their fans are in west London or are in the west/north suburbs. Not sure what happens to them, unless Wasps are surrendering them to Quins and Reading Irish and will attempt to build a new fan base?

doctor_grey wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:This just seems like such a bad idea.

Coventry already has a famous old club, just below the Championship, the area is already carved up between Worcester, Northampton and Leicester fans.  On top of that is sounds like the existing supporter base aren't happy either!

Plus, Wasps' average attendance is about 6000 at the moment?  You have to believe that this will go down by a couple of thousand.  Imagine around 4000 people rattling around a 32,000 seater stadium.  No atmosphere, no match day experience.  Sounds ridiculous.

I agree. Doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Wasps are a west London club. And many of their fans are in west London or are in the west/north suburbs. Not sure what happens to them, unless Wasps are surrendering them to Quins and Reading Irish and will attempt to build a new fan base?

I fear that is what whoever is driving this move has in mind. You get the feeling that they've seen that there is a shiny new stadium available and thought 'there are plenty of rugby fans in the midlands, let's target them'. As London Welsh's move to Oxford has shown, this just doesn't happen.

On a personal level, I despise watching rugby in massive empty sheds. Atmosphere and excitement attracts people. Clubs should work to the Northampton/ Bath model, get 90% occupancy and then look at expanding. I would rather see rugby in a full 10,000 seater stadium than the same number in a 30,000 seater.

I can't sign the petition because I'm at work, but I will do it when I get home.

Cumbrian wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:This just seems like such a bad idea.

Coventry already has a famous old club, just below the Championship, the area is already carved up between Worcester, Northampton and Leicester fans.  On top of that is sounds like the existing supporter base aren't happy either!

Plus, Wasps' average attendance is about 6000 at the moment?  You have to believe that this will go down by a couple of thousand.  Imagine around 4000 people rattling around a 32,000 seater stadium.  No atmosphere, no match day experience.  Sounds ridiculous.

I agree.  Doesn't seem like  a great idea to me.  Wasps are a west London club.  And many of their fans are in west London or are in the west/north suburbs.  Not sure what happens to them, unless Wasps are surrendering them to Quins and Reading Irish and will attempt to build a new fan base?  

I fear that is what whoever is driving this move has in mind.  You get the feeling that they've seen that there is a shiny new stadium available and thought 'there are plenty of rugby fans in the midlands, let's target them'.  As London Welsh's move to Oxford has shown, this just doesn't happen.

On a personal level, I despise watching rugby in massive empty sheds.  Atmosphere and excitement attracts people.  Clubs should work to the Northampton/ Bath model, get 90% occupancy and then look at expanding.  I would rather see rugby in a full 10,000 seater stadium than the same number in a 30,000 seater.

I can't sign the petition because I'm at work, but I will do it when I get home.

You took the words out of my mouth. Couldn't have said it better.

Cumbrian wrote:On a personal level, I despise watching rugby in massive empty sheds.  Atmosphere and excitement attracts people.  Clubs should work to the Northampton/ Bath model, get 90% occupancy and then look at expanding.  I would rather see rugby in a full 10,000 seater stadium than the same number in a 30,000 seater.

Yes and it's the RFU that stopped you doing that with the rules about ground capacity that forced London Welsh to move in the first place.

In an ideal world clubs would follow the Bath model of expansion as when demand required but most of the London clubs apart from Quins were unable to develop their home grounds, either through lack of space, access and location and of course a good old fashioned blast of local councillors and NIMBYs sticking their oar in.

My own council had Saracens as tenants of a non-league football side in the early days of pro-rugby, Saracens wanted to buy the stadium, develop and expand it by about 50 meters into a local playing field, the local council refused it effectively on the basis of objections by some dog walkers. As a result Saracens moved out of their home Borough, the football club and the ground was bought by a speculator who ran the club into the ground and sold it, making a tidy profit on the land values - the site is now a cinema and restaurants so there are no sports teams using it - and the local football team went bust and endured years in the wilderness, moving from ground to ground - even now with a permanent home they are nowhere near the level they once played at.

I occasionally see the council leader who refused Saracens permission to develop the site and take great delight in reminding him of how much his decision cost the local people who lost two sports teams and the local economy which has lost countless hundereds of thousands of pounds from visting fans, local jobs associated with the stadium and  the chance to sell the town to visiting European fans - all for the sake of half a dozen local busybodies.

Wasps currently lose £3m per season.

They wanted to buy and expand, develop Adams park - but permission denied.

Ricoh Stadium is a profitable company with streong conference income and Coventry city returning as a tenant. From a financial point of view it makes sense. With the chairman of coventry RFC saying they coudl work with the Wasps board - it could make Rugby sense in the long run, though academy recruitment could suffer.

However massive kick in the teeth for Waps fans.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:On a personal level, I despise watching rugby in massive empty sheds.  Atmosphere and excitement attracts people.  Clubs should work to the Northampton/ Bath model, get 90% occupancy and then look at expanding.  I would rather see rugby in a full 10,000 seater stadium than the same number in a 30,000 seater.

Yes and it's the RFU that stopped you doing that with the rules about ground capacity that forced London Welsh to move in the first place.

In an ideal world clubs would follow the Bath model of expansion as when demand required but most of the London clubs apart from Quins were unable to develop their home grounds, either through lack of space, access and location and of course a good old fashioned blast of local councillors and NIMBYs sticking their oar in.

My own council had Saracens as tenants of a non-league football side in the early days of pro-rugby, Saracens wanted to buy the stadium, develop and expand it by about 50 meters into a local playing field, the local council refused it effectively on the basis of objections by some dog walkers. As a result Saracens moved out of their home Borough, the football club and the ground was bought by a speculator who ran the club into the ground and sold it, making a tidy profit on the land values - the site is now a cinema and restaurants so there are no sports  teams using it - and the local football team went bust and endured years in the wilderness, moving from ground to ground - even now with a permanent home they are nowhere near the level they once played at.

I occasionally see the council leader who refused Saracens permission to develop the site and take great delight in reminding him of how much his decision cost the local people who lost two sports teams and the local economy which has lost countless hundereds of thousands of pounds from visting fans, local jobs associated with the stadium and  the chance to sell the town to visiting European fans - all for the sake of half a dozen local busybodies.

The thing is I believe that you’ve got to have some stadium standards. Old Deer Park just isn’t fit for purpose in a modern professional league and Welsh weren’t (still aren’t really) prepared for top flight rugby.

I think Saracens current position is an example of what can be achieved. It cost Saracens £10 million (from what I can find) to redevelop Allainz and Wasps are talking about spending between £20 million and £30 Million to buy the controlling stake in the Ricoh arena. Now, I know that it doesn’t necessarily follow that just because Sarries can do it, Wasps will automatically be able to do the same elsewhere, but I do think there are options out there.

I can’t say I really know a lot about it, but planning laws have relaxed somewhat recently haven’t they?

LondonTiger wrote:Wasps currently lose £3m per season.

They wanted to buy and expand, develop Adams park - but permission denied.

Ricoh Stadium is a profitable company with streong conference income and Coventry city returning as a tenant. From a financial point of view it makes sense. With the chairman of coventry RFC saying they coudl work with the Wasps board - it could make Rugby sense in the long run, though academy recruitment could suffer.

However massive kick in the teeth for Waps fans.

It will make financial sense of they manage to retain their fan base and try to grow it.  Everything I'm hearing in the media on SSN and such channels is that people in Coventry are getting quite peed off at the prospect of the sale.  It could be disastrous if Wasps fans are alienated and the people they are trying to attract as fans see them as the pantomime villain.

I think time is running out for Wasps, Cumbrian.

they tried to do a deal to stay where they were, council rejected it.

They tried to do some deal with Brentford - but timescales were too long.

they looked around wormwood Scrubs I believe - but that fell through.


Wasps had major issues paying wages recently (was it last season or season before) and the new consortium are not made of mega bucks. they need to do something fast.

Irrespective of fans - buying the Arena complex from the current owners could actually subsidise the rugby club.

The cash generated by Coventry City, the Casino, conference Centre, hotel and shopping centre - allied to not paying rent at Adams Park means they could probably play in front of no crowds and be in a much better position than they are now financially.

LondonTiger wrote:Irrespective of fans -  buying the Arena complex from the current owners could actually subsidise the rugby club.

The cash generated by Coventry City, the Casino, conference Centre, hotel and shopping centre - allied to not paying rent at Adams Park means they could probably play in front of no crowds and be in a much better position than they are now financially.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of that. Feels all kind of wrong, that being the case though.

BREAKING - Coventry council unanimously agree to sell the Ricoh Arena to @WaspsRugby. They will be given a 250-year lease - via ESPN

Cumbrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Irrespective of fans -  buying the Arena complex from the current owners could actually subsidise the rugby club.

The cash generated by Coventry City, the Casino, conference Centre, hotel and shopping centre - allied to not paying rent at Adams Park means they could probably play in front of no crowds and be in a much better position than they are now financially.

Fair enough,  I wasn't aware of that.  Feels all kind of wrong, that being the case though.  

I am in agreement with you. It feels wrong on so many levels - but I do understand why they are doing it.

Who knows. Maybe in 100 years time no-one will remember Wasps as a London team.

Given the sale has been approved is it pretty much a given now? Hopefully it will give Wasps the stability they need, regardless of how icky it feels.

GLove39 wrote:BREAKING - Coventry council unanimously agree to sell the Ricoh Arena to @WaspsRugby. They will be given a 250-year lease - via ESPN

Wow, that's really long. I wonder if Joe Simpson will have grown hair on his head by then.

Am always amazed by how clubs can move from one place to another as if there were franchises. How can they maintain and expand a fan base? Are the academy moving as well? Where is the identity?
Over here, clubs and town/cities are basically the same and worst case 2 neighbouring clubs merge to survive but that usually means 2 stadiums and at worst a 10 miles commute... So I have some sympathy for Hound and other Wasps fans as last time I saw them live they were actually a london club (loftus road?).

This is so sad.

The move is confirmed on the Wasps website.



They will lose a lot of of pre-season ST sales from London and home counties fans. Derek Richardson has quickly gone from saviour to Villain.

At least you still have Ealing Hound.

I'm not going to post a link to it (not allowed) but there is a superb 'letter to Wasps' on the unoffy site.

waspies.net

Part of me has just died.  I'll continue to support the team; but in front of the TV in a pub. However, most of my live games will be watching Ealing next season.

Cheers Ozzy.

Hound of Harrow wrote:I'm not going to post a link to it (not allowed) but there is a superb 'letter to Wasps' on the unoffy site.

waspies.net

Part of me has just died.  I'll continue to support the team; but in front of the TV in a pub. However, most of my live games will be watching Ealing next season.

Fantastic letter

Hound of Harrow wrote:The move is confirmed on the Wasps website.



They will lose a lot of of pre-season ST sales from London and home counties fans. Derek Richardson has quickly gone from saviour to Villain.

I don't like it either. Wasps were iconic and, for me, inseparable from west London. I hadn't thought the move to Wycombe was a good move for the supporters and this seems worse. The worst part is I understand some of the logic. I hope it works out for the club, but are disappointed for the fans.

Should we put up a sign on the M1 saying the Midlands are closed and to go back where they came from?

Thanks folks.

The move of course doesn't feel right but will hopefully secure the future of the club for a while.
I'm not a STH but go to a handful of games each season & the move doesn't affect me personally much at all.
I hope Big Joe signs a further contract he is irreplaceable imo.

doctor_grey wrote:What happens to the London Double Header?
if Wasps go to Coventry, then there won't be 4 'London' teams.  
Invite a 4th club as a guest?  

I went to this years LDH with some Wasps fans and a few neutrals like me and it was a great day out.  One question I did ask though (not that it will happen) but what if Londeon Welsh were to stay up how would that work when you had 5 'London' clubs would the names be put in a hat would thye rotate it etc.  

As said won't happen cos Welsh are strugging so badly at the moment but as you said Doc, what would happen now?  Though Wasps had already dropped the 'London' anyway hadn't they?

Am also pretty sure that I read Coventry FC will still be given primacy over who plays home when etc, is that maybe a deal to appease the new fan base they trying to get on board?

I know Welsh's performances won't win many fans, but the Wasps hierarchy really should have looked at the empty stands of the Kassam and the dreadful atmosphere to see the folly of this move. I appreciate Wasps have moved around, but all of the moves would still allow the core fans to attend, but moving to Coventry is going to bring this to a dramatic halt. In a hot bed of the sport where I'd strongly argue most people interested in rugby are already aligned to Leicester, Northampton, Worcester, etc, I cannot see Wasps generating much of a fan base, in the same way Welsh haven't in Oxford. I feel genuinely sorry for Wasps fans, especially given the early promises that the club would move back to London.

Problem is HKC that none of the possible moves in London came to fruition.

The Wasps structure as it currently is cannot support top flight rugby - so to the board it was either move to a ground they could own and gain revenue from, or pull the plug on finances and let the club find its floating point lower down the leagues.

the current owners will be portrayed as the bad guys - but really the decision making in moving as tenants to Loftus Road started this and the situation got steadily worse. Then factor in weak councils and Nimbys and sadly this seems to have been inevitable.

It is a sad, sad time for Wasps fans - many of whom truly do seem to prefer they would stay and play in lower leagues.

PS
On a similar note have Saints gained the planning permission they need from their council?

whocares wrote:Am always amazed by how clubs can move from one place to another as if there were franchises. How can they maintain and expand a fan base? Are the academy moving as well? Where is the identity?
Over here, clubs and town/cities are basically the same and worst case 2 neighbouring clubs merge to survive but that usually means 2 stadiums and at worst a 10 miles commute... So I have some sympathy for Hound and other Wasps fans as last time I saw them live they were actually a london club (loftus road?).

Where clubs are town based - you are unlikely to see much movement in terms of distance. Only Sale have done that so far - and largely because Sale is  really now just a Greater Manchester suburb.

Where we have seen clubs move are in London - where they did not own their own grounds and despite the population the numbers who follow rugby is quite small. London Scottish and Richmond went to the wall and only just recovering. London Irish and London Welsh moved from London as they sought a place to play that was suitable. Wasps and Saracens led nomadic lives as they too sought a suitable place to play.

Only Harlequins who entered pro rugby with their own ground and a council willing to let them expand and develop it have managed to stay put.


As to academy - according to todays press Wasps academy will continue to cover Middlesex, Bucks and Oxfordshire.

Sad news for Wasps fans. From the sounds of it though it does seem like the owners had little choice.

LondonTiger wrote:PS
On a similar note have Saints gained the planning permission they need from their council?

If you're referring to the North Stand redevelopment, then according to this link it sounds like it was approved back in January and is going ahead next summer.

TY pledge. I seem to remember the council officially refused plans - and Saints threatened to up sticks to MK

Hound of Harrow wrote:I'm not going to post a link to it (not allowed) but there is a superb 'letter to Wasps' on the unoffy site.

waspies.net

Part of me has just died.  I'll continue to support the team; but in front of the TV in a pub. However, most of my live games will be watching Ealing next season.

What a brilliant letter that is.

The whole thing basically seems to be a property deal with Wasps providing the cover story. Buy an asset for a knockdown price, collect the income from the hotel/conference facilities and develop the adjacent land when they can. A clever bit of business I'm sure and who knows it may earn them enough money to afford to move back to near London but a complete shafting of the fans. I guess sadly these days the amount of actual revenue provided by tickets is minimal compared to tv money and they have calculated that they will make more playing in an empty stadium but with income from the stadium facilities than they could with fans turning up.