Why is Welsh rugby not thriving like Leinster and Munster do in Ireland?

This is a very interesting article from WalesOnline by Simon Thomas, he raises some very interesting issues, but for me the most glaring one is about how Leinster’s chief executive Mick Dawson said about the work that goes on off the pitch, "There is an awful lot of hard work actually goes in off the pitch to make sure the awareness is created and the sense of occasion,” he said. Now, perhaps if the WRU let the regions do something like this I think the regions could raise their attendances, but Roger keeps holding the regions back, I think he is scared that the regions might get too powerful and it could affect his team Wales agenda. The whole article can be found here:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/welsh-rugby-not-thriving-like-7885933

What is it you want the WRU to allow the regions to do?

The provinces in Ireland work tirelessly to go into communities ranging from rugby camps, to school visits and meet and greets with players.

Like Mick Dawson said success and having big names has helped Leinster and the other provinces. Central contracts will help Welsh rugby but it'll take time, while the big names have been heading elsewhere for cash the big names and success have been lacking at times.

His point about Irelands provinces always existing is a crucial one, and the one I agree with. Ireland were lucky to have a perfect model for professionalism when the time came. Wales have artificial and arbitrary regions which leaves a lot of fans disenfranchised.

The regions are trying though, they do attempt a lot of community activities and usual PR stunts, but fact remains that those from Pontypridd are not going to support the Cardiff Blues.

marty2086 wrote:What is it you want the WRU to allow the regions to do?

The provinces in Ireland work tirelessly to go into communities ranging from rugby camps, to school visits and meet and greets with players.

Like Mick Dawson said success and having big names has helped Leinster and the other provinces. Central contracts will help Welsh rugby but it'll take time, while the big names have been heading elsewhere for cash the big names and success have been lacking at times.

The WRU do hamstring the regions though, not so long back Andrew Hore was dragged over the coals by Roger Lewis for wanting a more hands on approach within his own region, he wanted to do more things, but he is stunted by only doing what the WRU allow them to do, recently Tonga agreed to a one off match during the AI against the Ospreys but the WRU stopped it from happening, the regions could do an awful lot more, but sadly the WRU will not let them.

To be honest one thing that IMO really hampers the regions is the constant harping on in the press (especially on Scrum V) about poor attendances/performances compared to the Irish/English. It seems that we are constantly trying to look for negatives with the whole setup as opposed to trying to look at the positives.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What is it you want the WRU to allow the regions to do?

The provinces in Ireland work tirelessly to go into communities ranging from rugby camps, to school visits and meet and greets with players.

Like Mick Dawson said success and having big names has helped Leinster and the other provinces. Central contracts will help Welsh rugby but it'll take time, while the big names have been heading elsewhere for cash the big names and success have been lacking at times.

The WRU do hamstring the regions though, not so long back Andrew Hore was dragged over the coals by Roger Lewis for wanting a more hands on approach within his own region, he wanted to do more things, but he is stunted by only doing what the WRU allow them to do, recently Tonga agreed to a one off match during the AI against the Ospreys but the WRU stopped it from happening, the regions could do an awful lot more, but sadly the WRU will not let them.

And the regions refused until recently to allow central contracts and were happy to see big names with some drawing power disappear of to France and England. Both parties have done damage to the game but the root cause is that not enough buy into the identity of the regions because of club affiliation

See it is exactly this circular 'well he did this' and 'well they did that' nonesence that is killing rugby off in Wales.  The press thrive on that sort of cods, and it seems that a lot of people outside of Wales also love piping up with their two pence worth about it too.  Negativity reigns, to hell with anything positive that is happening, lets just concentrate on feeding the egos of the few who really don't give a fig about the game (as long as their huge salaries keep coming) by allowing their propaganda machine to keep running.

The regions are all trying to spread the regional word around, and they are all focusing on far more that the town/city in which they are based. This is not seen by the folk outside of the region itself, and to be honest why should it? I can't tell you what Connacht are doing to get more people that just those of Gallway interested in the team, or what Leinster are doing to pull in the folk who are no Dubliners, and to be honest I don't really care enough to get involved in it. So why do people who are not actually aware of what the regions are or are not doing feel the need to tell us about how we are failing. And worse, why do we let their negative attitudes towards our teams and our game, get into our mind set.

I can only talk form the Scarlets view point. I live in Pembrokeshire, and pre regionalism there was little interest from the general public about the game in general. However now there is a passing interest by the majority. I regularly attend the Scarelts games, and have noticed that the number of people who are commenting on results and how players performed etc. This increase in interest never gets picked up or rreally commented on by the media, or even on boards like this.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What is it you want the WRU to allow the regions to do?

The provinces in Ireland work tirelessly to go into communities ranging from rugby camps, to school visits and meet and greets with players.

Like Mick Dawson said success and having big names has helped Leinster and the other provinces. Central contracts will help Welsh rugby but it'll take time, while the big names have been heading elsewhere for cash the big names and success have been lacking at times.

The WRU do hamstring the regions though, not so long back Andrew Hore was dragged over the coals by Roger Lewis for wanting a more hands on approach within his own region, he wanted to do more things, but he is stunted by only doing what the WRU allow them to do, recently Tonga agreed to a one off match during the AI against the Ospreys but the WRU stopped it from happening, the regions could do an awful lot more, but sadly the WRU will not let them.

And the regions refused until recently to allow central contracts and were happy to see big names with some drawing power disappear of to France and England. Both parties have done damage to the game but the root cause is that not enough buy into the identity of the regions because of club affiliation

Marty, you are wrong, the regions were not against central contracts, and they do not want to see the best players going to France and England, what they did not want was a scenario that happened around George North, where the WRU offered to fund his wages to keep him in Wales, but they said they would only do this if he played for the Blues, that is the exact thing they were against, anyway they have come to a deal on all that mess now, so what point are you trying to get at ?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What is it you want the WRU to allow the regions to do?

The provinces in Ireland work tirelessly to go into communities ranging from rugby camps, to school visits and meet and greets with players.

Like Mick Dawson said success and having big names has helped Leinster and the other provinces. Central contracts will help Welsh rugby but it'll take time, while the big names have been heading elsewhere for cash the big names and success have been lacking at times.

The WRU do hamstring the regions though, not so long back Andrew Hore was dragged over the coals by Roger Lewis for wanting a more hands on approach within his own region, he wanted to do more things, but he is stunted by only doing what the WRU allow them to do, recently Tonga agreed to a one off match during the AI against the Ospreys but the WRU stopped it from happening, the regions could do an awful lot more, but sadly the WRU will not let them.

And the regions refused until recently to allow central contracts and were happy to see big names with some drawing power disappear of to France and England. Both parties have done damage to the game but the root cause is that not enough buy into the identity of the regions because of club affiliation

Marty, the Lord and SS have answered most of the points, one needs emphasising, the WRU wanted CC and we now have Dual Contracts, TOTALLY DIFFERENT and SS told you about how he doesn't get involved in Irish Rugby as he doesn't know enough about it, I've had the same conversation with a number of your countrymen, as by your post you obviously know very little what actually goes on in Welsh Rugby, why don't you if you have a couple of hours to spare go on the Ospreys website and have a look what we do around Ospreylia (our Region) and notice the one part we don't go to, because as the Lord has told you our CEO has been warned off, I've actually gone on one or two Irish topics to ask a question, until I know the facts about a certain topic I'm interested in or concerns me, I DONT COMMENT, why don't you do the same.

Wayne, he is as entitled to comment as anyone else. And sometimes we are to insular as welsh posters, and an outside view point is not only welcomed, but refreshing.

Marty, please don't take my comments as a dig at you personally or at your opinions or even those of your countrymen or any other non-welsh posters. What I meant is that the Regional question tends to always end up with negative comments about the regions in comparison to the provinces, as opposed to positives about the regions in comparison to the state are regionalism.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne, he is as entitled to comment as anyone else.  And sometimes we are to insular as welsh posters, and an outside view point is not only welcomed, but refreshing.

Marty, please don't take my comments as a dig at you personally or at your opinions or even those of your countrymen or any other non-welsh posters.  What I meant is that the Regional question tends to always end up with negative comments about the regions in comparison to the provinces, as opposed to positives about the regions in comparison to the state are regionalism.

SS, well our viewpoints are totally different, as I wouldn't have the cheek to give an opinion when I don't have the rudimentary facts at my disposal, I would ask questions first and when I had the relevant facts I'd give an opinion, you will find I very rarely comment on anything outside of Wales.

Living over the wrong side of the bridge I have many lets say heated debates with colleagues about the Regions most stating how s**t they are and my aren't they supported better etc etc.

The one main response I use especially of my Gloucester friends is if England went down the Regional route would they support a West Country side playing in Bath under lets say the name Bath Warriors in Bath colours would they support it?

Their answer is well lets say I couldn't repeat it on here, then I explain that is basically what has happened in Wales and some (like me) have decided to support my Regions (Dragons) even though am an Ebbw boy whilst others wouldn't be seen dead in a Regional ground.

At the risk of intruding on private grief (but, on the bright side, you aren't Edinburgh fans) success on the pitch hides a lot of potential issues of it.
3 of the provinces (let's not forget Ulster too) are all attracting good crowds no doubt, in part at least, be cause they are successful.
Glasgow's crowds have, relatively speaking, rocketed. They even had all but a sellout for the recent Connacht visit.
One last tuppence worth. To an outsider looking in, fans of the Welsh regions seem to resent another region being successful. Does jealousy come into the mix?

Yes jealousy does come into it along with bitterness, resentment and my clubs bigger than yours we should have had a Region not you etc etc etc.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Yes jealousy does come into it along with bitterness, resentment and my clubs bigger than yours we should have had a Region not you etc etc etc.

Do YOU BW honestly believe that, I do not have any of those sentiments to the other Welsh Teams, I do feel animosity towards the WRU, for the way they have treated the Regions, and the way they have joined together to thwart the Dodger and Prickering is the way forward, just go and look at the expertise of the Board of RRW compared with the same of the WRU, it is truly embarrassing. I've been put in my place on the Ospreys Forum in the past for wanting more matches placed around the Region especially the Brewery Field, being told you had your chance with the Warriors and knowing how the finances work at the Liberty, I was wrong, the same IMO applies to Ponty, they had their chance and blew it, if they carry on as they have started the NEXT team should be in the RGC area.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:At the risk of intruding on private grief (but, on the bright side, you aren't Edinburgh fans)

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Sad Edinburgh fan here

From where I sit why do the Welsh regions not do as well as Irish? Wasting energy on infighting and fans who still believe their clubs of years ago would be world beaters if only the WRU would let them play.

TJ wrote:From where I sit why do the Welsh regions not do as well as Irish?  Wasting energy on infighting and fans who still believe their clubs of years ago would be world beaters if only the WRU would let them play.

True to a point but, as has been mentioned on here a lot, the Welsh fans have had regionalism forced upon them and, from a grass-roots points of view, it's difficult to shake the tribalism. Irish provinces have been around an awful long time and, it could be argued, that internationally that has worked against them as some players (as ROG etc has alluded to) have greater loyalty to their province. Internationally, Welsh players have stepped up compared to their regional form where Irish players haven't and that has been reflected in 6Ns success.

You could say to Welsh fans/players, 'just deal with it' but it's not as easy as that.

wayne, a lot of people on here who are not Welsh know a large amount about the situation because they devoted a lot of time to researching it for themselves. Getting annoyed every time someone who is not Welsh makes a point is perhaps unfair.

There was tribalism when the provinces were introduced though Cyril, as the article (which I thought was excellent) quite rightly points out. I think the fact that rugby was not an established sport in Ireland made it easier. The clubs were not too powerful and not entrenched in the imagination of the public so it was easy to create a new sense of loyalty to the provinces, instead of the situation in Wales were people are still angry about the decline of the club game. The clubs in Ireland were always smaller and they were treated impartially. No club was selected to become an artificial professional super-team over their rivals by the Union. The Union treated all clubs equally, even if some said they shafted them by prioritising the professional structures.

Part of Wales' problem is their clubs were too small to survive as professional entities on their own (unlike the English clubs) and too big to simply be relegated to a smaller role as amateur development teams for professional sides (unlike Irelands clubs)

Scarlets, it is true that it often tends to end up with Irish posters comparing the regions unfavourably to the provinces, I concede that point and understand how that is not constructive. However thats because Irish posters are absolutely baffled and cannot understand just how things can be so dire for professional rugby in a nation that is rugby mad when Irish provinces are thriving in a nation where rugby was once viewed as a 'Garrison sport' and reviled.

When you compare the massive, massive advantages Wales had over Ireland at the start of the professional era in terms of their player numbers, public interest and passion for the game, number of clubs, number of people involved in rugby and their superior record of success at every level... well they should be miles ahead of us. Instead they are falling behind.

Cyril wrote:[quote="TJTrue to a point but, as has been mentioned on here a lot, the Welsh fans have had regionalism forced upon them and, from a grass-roots points of view, it's difficult to shake the tribalism. Irish provinces have been around an awful long time and, it could be argued, that internationally that has worked against them as some players (as ROG etc has alluded to) have greater loyalty to their province. Internationally, Welsh players have stepped up compared to their regional form where Irish players haven't and that has been reflected in 6Ns success.

You could say to Welsh fans/players, 'just deal with it' but it's not as easy as that.

True.  I mean the reference to balance.  You probably can plan to have it all your own way (both Internationally and Rergionally).  That I suppose is the planning ideal.  But the truth is often that despite best worked plans, nature finds its balance - both in the minds and aspirations of the players and in the often rolling fortunes of Region/Club and International.

Cyril is right - I find it very apparent from my time on these rugby forums that fans can be very fickle and seasonal in their desires.  During League time, they seem to want all benefits going to Club - EVEN if need be at the expence of the priorities of the National Union and Team.  "To f**k with them International coaches and administrators!" seems to be the line when fans are engrossed in their clubs/regions/provinces.  
But as soon as International windows hit, we see those same fans become die-hard International observers - often moaning about the fact that the National coach doesn't get enough time with the players to perfect his ways, complaining that SH nations seem to prioritise their National requirements, complaining that certain clubs aren't good enough to allow best International stars to be ready for International pace, complaining that central International characters have had too much club rugby and are knackered...etc...etc.

So Wales?  Well, yes - what about the famous Ireland period of the 'Golden Generation'?  They seemed to have it all on paper, and they seemed to do it all at Provincial levels.... but when it came to International, there was always the taunt that they were eternal underperformers - the Golden Chokers, as it were .  And they were.  It was true.  So something suffered during that period when Ireland seemed to hit a rich vein of star players.  Province excelled but at the expence of International.  The bickering and divided loyalties were real.  Provincial pride diluted the drive of the National squad.  
Meanwhile, Wales International were winning 6Ns as their regions suffered because of the super loyalty of players to the National cause.  It's a balance.  The desire is to have it all but nature often chooses to balance things out.

Except as you said, those massive advantages aren't necessarily advantages. It's like saying England should have the best railway in the world because they an established system before others. In fact it requires a complete overhaul of the system. The simple fact is that the introduction of professional rugby, and the change in 2003, were hash jobs. A halfway house that suited no-one and has struggled to make the inroads it needs.

The way I look at things, in Wales, and being a Welshman, what some of the posters are saying on here do ring true, but we have had regionalism for over ten years now, that is a whole decade of ten to twelve year olds growing up, do they have the same bitterness as us thirty year old plus fans have ? I doubt it, and their kids will not either, the trouble in Wales is, there is far too much rugby to go around for the amount of people here, just take my region, there must be about 50 different clubs, who all have people committed to them, in my own town of Merthyr, where the population is only 55,000, there are off the top of my head, seven rugby clubs, now between them all when you take players, families, coaches, fans, and the kids involved, you must be talking around three thousand people, these are all fans who are not supporting the Blues, because they are too busy with their own clubs, but, these people will watch the Blues on tele, and this is why the BBC and S4C will fight tooth and nail to get the rights to air rugby in Wales, the support for Rugby in Wales is massive, there is just too much rugby to go around, and unless the WRU let the regions delve into their catchment area's to raid these fans then the regional crowds will not improve.

wayne wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Yes jealousy does come into it along with bitterness, resentment and my clubs bigger than yours we should have had a Region not you etc etc etc.

Do YOU BW honestly believe that, I do not have any of those sentiments to the other Welsh Teams, I do feel animosity towards the WRU, for the way they have treated the Regions, and the way they have joined together to thwart the Dodger and Prickering is the way forward, just go and look at the expertise of the Board of RRW compared with the same of the WRU, it is truly embarrassing. I've been put in my place on the Ospreys Forum in the past for wanting more matches placed around the Region especially the Brewery Field, being told you had your chance with the Warriors and knowing how the finances work at the Liberty, I was wrong, the same IMO applies to Ponty, they had their chance and blew it, if they carry on as they have started the NEXT team should be in the RGC area.      

Wayne,

Maybe not jealousy but yes I do believe that and there is HUGE resentment from certain clubs who still just see the Regions as stand alones. I have friends and family still in Ebbw who wouldn't be seen dead down in Rodney Parade because to them it's still Newport not the Dragons and I think we all know that's how a lot of Ponty fans feel to.

When the Dragons played they pre season friendly against Saints up at ECP I had quite a heated debate with my Uncle who wouldn't even try and see they were doing something and cut his nose off to spite face by not going even though some of his close friends did and the fact it was free to get in as he's a season ticket holder but I do think it's a generation thing.

That said there has always been resentment towards the 'bigger' clubs from the valleys, years ago players were often told that if you want to play for Wales you had to move away from the likes of Ebbw Vale and Abertillery to get capped.

Notch, maybe I am not being as clear as I could be (mainly because I am doing my best to make it clear I am not aiming comments at any one or any nationality). If all people ever say about the regions are negative comments, be it from disgruntled welsh fans, people from outside the country or whatever, then people start believing that everything is really that bad. If people would actually listen to the people who can put about a positive side to it, then maybe people would notice that actually things are progressing better than others would think.

The whole problem with the regions is the spin the press give them, and the way certain types of people latch onto that spin, seemingly without an opinion of their own. I would find it rather interesting to see how opinions of other teams on here would chance if they had similar spin put on them. Not wanting to target the Irish, but it seems that the press/fans seem to like to use them as a comparison.

So lets take Leinster as an example. When was the last time they played a competitive game outside of Dublin? Surely they are not doing what they should to embrace the people of their province. After all their is only "One True Province" that is Munster, as they are willing to move their games around and actually show respect to the people of their province. Also lets be honest Leinster are stunting the Irish teams development with the number od NIQ players they bring through, after all the likes of Kirchner at fullback is preventing Mick McGrath or Colm O'Shea getting regular game time. This it is this self serving and disgraceful lack of interest in the higher levels of the game that is causing Ireland to falter internationally.

Yes you can all see that for the load of hairy danglers that it is. But that is because your aware of what actually goes on there, however if that was the only sort of press you read regarding Leinster then you would assume that they are in fact that bad. The regions are suffering from this.

SS,

That's a very good way to describe it, can't comment on the other Regions but I know the Dragons do a lot in the Gwent area, yes they could do more but they are doing a fair bit within schools and communities and the flag bearers on match day are often junior clubs from around the Region.

However to the doubters and maybe the media that will never be enough and like all British media bad stories/reports sell better than good ones.

It's a good question. Success is a good starter. Build a good team with all the structures and ethic and the results will take care of themselves. Munster and Leinster proved this with their HC wins. The top players will want to stay and the punters will want to come and see them play. Also, the Irish fans have really bought into watching the provinces. It seems to me that a match day feels like a whole family day/night out.
I don't know about the other regions but I fail too see what the Ospreys can do more in the community. Theyre always out and about in the 'Ospreylia' area promoting the region. It's a thankless task imo. General apathy and the unstoppable force of Swansea city is against them.

Said it before and mentioned it again but a lot of it is a generation thing.

(Some) of us of a certain age who remember the clubs will always want it the way it was and will think it was better then (was it really) but the kids of today don't know anything other that the Regions and that's where they should be concentrating a lot of their marketing on, something I know the Dragons are doing.

Some good points about Wales' 6 nations success vs Ireland's. The provinces are set up for Ireland but as secretfly pointed out, there's pressure from the provinces fans to put there team before Ireland. I believe David Nucifora was brought in to try to help in this regard.


How have the soccer clubs affected the regions? I can imagine its taking away some of the rugby fans.

Breadvan wrote:It's a good question. Success is a good starter. Build a good team with all the structures and ethic and the results will take care of themselves. Munster and Leinster proved this with their HC wins. The top players will want to stay and the punters will want to come and see them play. Also, the Irish fans have really bought into watching the provinces. It seems to me that a match day feels like a whole family day/night out.
I don't know about the other regions but I fail too see what the Ospreys can do more in the community. Theyre always out and about in the 'Ospreylia' area promoting the region. It's a thankless task imo. General apathy and the unstoppable force of Swansea city is against them.

I do not agree with comparing the situation with football crowds compared to rugby crowds, you see the thing is there is only two pro football teams, one in the West of Wales, and one in the East of Wales, if we could combine the attendances from both the Blues and the Dragons, then you would not be far off the same crowds as Cardiff city get, also add in all the other clubs around the area who have big support, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale ect then you will see that there is not much of a difference in support, infact rugby will probably edge it, Swansea get about 28,000 people at home games each week, if you combined the Ospreys and Scarlets, and all the clubs like Neath, Bridgend,Camarthen Quins, Aberavon and you will probably see more fans watching rugby from the same catchment area, so the whole Cardiff City and Swansea City taking over is a bit of a myth really.

profitius wrote:Some good points about Wales' 6 nations success vs Ireland's. The provinces are set up for Ireland but as secretfly pointed out, there's pressure from the provinces fans to put there team before Ireland. I believe David Nucifora was brought in to try to help in this regard.


How have the soccer clubs affected the regions? I can imagine its taking away some of the rugby fans.

Not really, see my reply above.

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:Some good points about Wales' 6 nations success vs Ireland's. The provinces are set up for Ireland but as secretfly pointed out, there's pressure from the provinces fans to put there team before Ireland. I believe David Nucifora was brought in to try to help in this regard.


How have the soccer clubs affected the regions? I can imagine its taking away some of the rugby fans.

Not really, see my reply above.

Also its not taking away rugby fans, but taking away the 'I was there' fans. Those people are fickle and can not be relied upon when trying to build for the future. Just think a few years back when Wales Football were packing the MS for games (around Hughes manager time) and now they would struggle to get a bigger crowd that the Dragons.

The football clubs aren't taking away crowds. They've got more bandwagon fans now the Swans are ij the top flight. I was focusing more on the marketing and exposure. Thats the lure of the EPL and the coverage it gets. We each have our hardcore band of supporters.

LordDowlais wrote:

Breadvan wrote:It's a good question. Success is a good starter. Build a good team with all the structures and ethic and the results will take care of themselves. Munster and Leinster proved this with their HC wins. The top players will want to stay and the punters will want to come and see them play. Also, the Irish fans have really bought into watching the provinces. It seems to me that a match day feels like a whole family day/night out.
I don't know about the other regions but I fail too see what the Ospreys can do more in the community. Theyre always out and about in the 'Ospreylia' area promoting the region. It's a thankless task imo. General apathy and the unstoppable force of Swansea city is against them.

I do not agree with comparing the situation with football crowds compared to rugby crowds, you see the thing is there is only two pro football teams, one in the West of Wales, and one in the East of Wales, if we could combine the attendances from both the Blues and the Dragons, then you would not be far off the same crowds as Cardiff city get, also add in all the other clubs around the area who have big support, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale ect then you will see that there is not much of a difference in support, infact rugby will probably edge it, Swansea get about 28,000 people at home games each week, if you combined the Ospreys and Scarlets, and all the clubs like Neath, Bridgend,Camarthen Quins, Aberavon and you will probably see more fans watching rugby from the same catchment area, so the whole Cardiff City and Swansea City taking over is a bit of a myth really.

When I lived in Mumbles one thing that was very noticable was that people wore rugby shirts not football shirts. (Like the guy wearing an Australian rugby shirt on the day that England were playing Oz...)

I know its been covered in the past but the Liberty stadium, even though its very nice and shiney and (almost) new, its still a trek from the city and the train station. Obviously its not putting off the footy supporters, and the old Swansea rugby ground is pretty shabby, but its location is much better.

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Breadvan wrote:It's a good question. Success is a good starter. Build a good team with all the structures and ethic and the results will take care of themselves. Munster and Leinster proved this with their HC wins. The top players will want to stay and the punters will want to come and see them play. Also, the Irish fans have really bought into watching the provinces. It seems to me that a match day feels like a whole family day/night out.
I don't know about the other regions but I fail too see what the Ospreys can do more in the community. Theyre always out and about in the 'Ospreylia' area promoting the region. It's a thankless task imo. General apathy and the unstoppable force of Swansea city is against them.

I do not agree with comparing the situation with football crowds compared to rugby crowds, you see the thing is there is only two pro football teams, one in the West of Wales, and one in the East of Wales, if we could combine the attendances from both the Blues and the Dragons, then you would not be far off the same crowds as Cardiff city get, also add in all the other clubs around the area who have big support, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale ect then you will see that there is not much of a difference in support, infact rugby will probably edge it, Swansea get about 28,000 people at home games each week, if you combined the Ospreys and Scarlets, and all the clubs like Neath, Bridgend,Camarthen Quins, Aberavon and you will probably see more fans watching rugby from the same catchment area, so the whole Cardiff City and Swansea City taking over is a bit of a myth really.

When I lived in Mumbles one thing that was very noticable was that people wore rugby shirts not football shirts. (Like the guy wearing an Australian rugby shirt on the day that England were playing Oz...)
I know its been covered in the past but the Liberty stadium, even though its very nice and shiney and (almost) new, its still a trek from the city and the train station. Obviously its not putting off the footy supporters, and the old Swansea rugby ground is pretty shabby, but its location is much better.

Believe it or not, but Wales is not the anti-English myopic country that you try and have everbody believe, for most of us, there is nothing better than watching England put one over on the big three from the SH, infact, we enjoy watching any side from the six nations putting one over on any of the big three.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Breadvan wrote:It's a good question. Success is a good starter. Build a good team with all the structures and ethic and the results will take care of themselves. Munster and Leinster proved this with their HC wins. The top players will want to stay and the punters will want to come and see them play. Also, the Irish fans have really bought into watching the provinces. It seems to me that a match day feels like a whole family day/night out.
I don't know about the other regions but I fail too see what the Ospreys can do more in the community. Theyre always out and about in the 'Ospreylia' area promoting the region. It's a thankless task imo. General apathy and the unstoppable force of Swansea city is against them.

I do not agree with comparing the situation with football crowds compared to rugby crowds, you see the thing is there is only two pro football teams, one in the West of Wales, and one in the East of Wales, if we could combine the attendances from both the Blues and the Dragons, then you would not be far off the same crowds as Cardiff city get, also add in all the other clubs around the area who have big support, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale ect then you will see that there is not much of a difference in support, infact rugby will probably edge it, Swansea get about 28,000 people at home games each week, if you combined the Ospreys and Scarlets, and all the clubs like Neath, Bridgend,Camarthen Quins, Aberavon and you will probably see more fans watching rugby from the same catchment area, so the whole Cardiff City and Swansea City taking over is a bit of a myth really.

When I lived in Mumbles one thing that was very noticable was that people wore rugby shirts not football shirts. (Like the guy wearing an Australian rugby shirt on the day that England were playing Oz...)
I know its been covered in the past but the Liberty stadium, even though its very nice and shiney and (almost) new, its still a trek from the city and the train station. Obviously its not putting off the footy supporters, and the old Swansea rugby ground is pretty shabby, but its location is much better.

Believe it or not, but Wales is not the anti-English myopic country that you try and have everbody believe, for most of us, there is nothing better than watching England put one over on the big three from the SH, infact, we enjoy watching any side from the six nations putting one over on any of the big three.

I did manage 7 years there so I think my experiences have some value.

Like most places most people are fine. Some are not. I didnt expect those attitudes before moving there but they do exist. It was easy to get a bit paranoid with the attitude is it me or is everything just a bit poopy (and knowing Swansea it was usually the latter)

Mumbles is terribly clique-y which doesnt help. The contrast with where I am living now (in the NW) is just huge.

I honestly don't give a flying to who wins when any other team is playing, I watch it for (hopefully) the enjoyment of the game.

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Breadvan wrote:It's a good question. Success is a good starter. Build a good team with all the structures and ethic and the results will take care of themselves. Munster and Leinster proved this with their HC wins. The top players will want to stay and the punters will want to come and see them play. Also, the Irish fans have really bought into watching the provinces. It seems to me that a match day feels like a whole family day/night out.
I don't know about the other regions but I fail too see what the Ospreys can do more in the community. Theyre always out and about in the 'Ospreylia' area promoting the region. It's a thankless task imo. General apathy and the unstoppable force of Swansea city is against them.

I do not agree with comparing the situation with football crowds compared to rugby crowds, you see the thing is there is only two pro football teams, one in the West of Wales, and one in the East of Wales, if we could combine the attendances from both the Blues and the Dragons, then you would not be far off the same crowds as Cardiff city get, also add in all the other clubs around the area who have big support, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale ect then you will see that there is not much of a difference in support, infact rugby will probably edge it, Swansea get about 28,000 people at home games each week, if you combined the Ospreys and Scarlets, and all the clubs like Neath, Bridgend,Camarthen Quins, Aberavon and you will probably see more fans watching rugby from the same catchment area, so the whole Cardiff City and Swansea City taking over is a bit of a myth really.

When I lived in Mumbles one thing that was very noticable was that people wore rugby shirts not football shirts. (Like the guy wearing an Australian rugby shirt on the day that England were playing Oz...)
I know its been covered in the past but the Liberty stadium, even though its very nice and shiney and (almost) new, its still a trek from the city and the train station. Obviously its not putting off the footy supporters, and the old Swansea rugby ground is pretty shabby, but its location is much better.

Believe it or not, but Wales is not the anti-English myopic country that you try and have everbody believe, for most of us, there is nothing better than watching England put one over on the big three from the SH, infact, we enjoy watching any side from the six nations putting one over on any of the big three.

I did manage 7 years there so I think my experiences have some value.

Like most places most people are fine. Some are not. I didnt expect those attitudes before moving there but they do exist. It was easy to get a bit paranoid with the attitude is it me or is everything just a bit poopy (and knowing Swansea it was usually the latter)

Mumbles is terribly clique-y which doesnt help. The contrast with where I am living now (in the NW) is just huge.

The Mumbles is the same as any other place where you need more than the average income to live in, I have been to places like Surrey where as soon as they here your Welsh accent they think they are of a higher breed, it is everywhere, but you always seem to focus on the minority in Wales and have everbody believe that the country as a whole is like it.

Well I got the same in Resolven, and in Swansea. Not anti-English in terms of nationality (except a few drunken idiots) but wanting England to beat the big three? Never seen anything like that except off my father-in-law. And that's from 3 years in Swansea and going back and forth to Resolven for 12 years. Watching the 2007 final was fun, plenty of singing of England songs then...but they seemed to get the words wrong

Mumbles IS cliquey alright. The residents believe they're a village west of Swansea, not a grotty seaside town IN Swansea lol. Where I drink its def anyone but England but its not nasty. Always a laugh after the game, no real malice.

Breadvan wrote:Mumbles IS cliquey alright. The residents believe they're a village west of Swansea, not a grotty seaside town IN Swansea lol. Where I drink its def anyone but England but its not nasty. Always a laugh after the game, no real malice.

Mumbles is full of English immigrants (wives and husbands usually).

You have got it bang on about the place though. The stupid thing is it could be a great deal better than it is. The fact that it isnt, isnt helped by a city council that also treats them as if they are a separate village and not really their responsibility.

Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea.  East eats West - West fights back.

SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea.  East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea.  East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

Yes, you are right it is to do with the rocks that stick out at the end of Swansea bay, in Welsh it is called Mamucium, which means, in the politest sounding way, breast shaped, which is what the rocks/hills look like, there are other stories as well that sailors from around the world who used to go there during the copper mining times that said they could not understand the Welsh language and used to say that the people there used to mumble, but I prefer the story about the ricks/hills myself. Also, it is one of the most beautiful places in Britain for my liking, didn't Three Cliffs Bay in the Gower get voted the nicest place in Britain not so long ago ?

Anyway, back on topic......

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea.  East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

Yes, you are right it is to do with the rocks that stick out at the end of Swansea bay, in Welsh it is called Mamucium, which means, in the politest sounding way, breast shaped, which is what the rocks/hills look like, there are other stories as well that sailors from around the world who used to go there during the copper mining times that said they could not understand the Welsh language and used to say that the people there used to mumble, but I prefer the story about the ricks/hills myself. Also, it is one of the most beautiful places in Britain for my liking, didn't Three Cliffs Bay in the Gower get voted the nicest place in Britain not so long ago ?

Three cliffs bay is stunning. Fantastic beach with limited access so its never too busy. Caswell is lovely out of season and you have places like Rotherslade, Pwlldu and Brandy cove. All nice when its not raining.

Its always worth remembering though that we are lucky in the British isles as there are many beautiful landscapes.

Nothing however is ever going to convince me that Swansea itself is anything more than how it was described in Twin Town.

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea.  East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

No it isn't a real name - it is MUMBLES, there is no 'The'. Just as it is GOWER, there is no 'The'

    but it's a real bugbear of mine

http://www.mumbles.co.uk/

lostinwales wrote:Nothing however is ever going to convince me that Swansea itself is anything more than how it was described in Twin Town.

The Graveyard Of Ambition?? Actually rugbywise that's fair looking at the Ospreys European record

Also can anyone else go to Swansea train station without doing the little dity the cop came out with walking up and down the 'ambition is critical' paving slabs?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Nothing however is ever going to convince me that Swansea itself is anything more than how it was described in Twin Town.

The Graveyard Of Ambition??  Actually rugbywise that's fair looking at the Ospreys European record  

Also can anyone else go to Swansea train station without doing the little dity the cop came out with walking up and down the 'ambition is critical' paving slabs?

Pretty shety city ? that one.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Nothing however is ever going to convince me that Swansea itself is anything more than how it was described in Twin Town.

The Graveyard Of Ambition??  Actually rugbywise that's fair looking at the Ospreys European record  

Also can anyone else go to Swansea train station without doing the little dity the cop came out with walking up and down the 'ambition is critical' paving slabs?

Pretty something city...

I cant properly remember the quote but a Welsh artist compared Swansea to Margate pointing out that Margate had Cafes and art galleries overlooking the beach. Swansea has some council buildings and a prison.

I guess thats what you get from a local government with an interesting history of nepotism and corruption plus remodelling work courtesy of the Luftwafe.

Thats sums the Os euro record to a tee SS lol. The whole city is in disrepair at the moment. Not to run the place down, but we're a backwater compared to Cardiff. However, it could be getting better. The new uni and the hapless council finally ousting its leader and getting some outside help with a view to revamping the centre.