Why is Welsh rugby not thriving like Leinster and Munster do in Ireland?

by LordDowlais Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

This is a very interesting article from WalesOnline by Simon Thomas, he raises some very interesting issues, but for me the most glaring one is about how Leinster’s chief executive Mick Dawson said about the work that goes on off the pitch, "There is an awful lot of hard work actually goes in off the pitch to make sure the awareness is created and the sense of occasion,” he said. Now, perhaps if the WRU let the regions do something like this I think the regions could raise their attendances, but Roger keeps holding the regions back, I think he is scared that the regions might get too powerful and it could affect his team Wales agenda. The whole article can be found here:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/welsh-rugby-not-thriving-like-7885933

by lostinwales Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:41 pm

I really hope the University delivers. It has had a great history, but in more recent years the management seems to have been a lot more interested in their personal legacy than in looking after their staff.

Lots of reasons why for students it is a great place, but it can be poisonous behind the scenes

by wayne Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:08 pm

Anyway actually back to topic, Notch of course there are many good views espoused by Irishmen on these boards, yourself with some excellent views and I appreciate your input, Fly is BRILLIANT, sometimes with WUMS, other times incisive and educational, Sin so DOGGED in his views again much appreciated, there are a few others with some of those characteristics which again I'm appreciative of, I'm not going to name them there are a few who definately DON'T do the RESEARCH and I'll pick them out on this, one rose above the parapet on this topic and I gave my response. Bedford Welsh I thought you were talking about Anger and the other things BETWEEN the Regions, I apologise misunderstood the context, and yes there is a lot of Animosity between some of the lesser clubs and their Regions, let me just say that this week 2 Players, members of the OSC and Representatives of the Ospreys are having Roadshows around the Region, last night Aberavon, tonight was supposed to be the Liberty, but has had to be cancelled, tomorrow Bridgend and Thursday the LC, this is the 2nd time this has happened and it is supposed to be a monthly event, this is on top of all the Schools, Rugby Festivals and plenty of other Community work that we get involved in.
Lord, if you think that the Swans get 28000 gates, there are about 8000 getting in without the Owners permission or knowhow as the Liberty has a capacity of just over 20000.
Have to leave this now as I really need to do some important work and help my Grand daughter with her Maths homework.

by **Notch** Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:45 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Notch, maybe I am not being as clear as I could be (mainly because I am doing my best to make it clear I am not aiming comments at any one or any nationality). If all people ever say about the regions are negative comments, be it from disgruntled welsh fans, people from outside the country or whatever, then people start believing that everything is really that bad. If people would actually listen to the people who can put about a positive side to it, then maybe people would notice that actually things are progressing better than others would think.

The whole problem with the regions is the spin the press give them, and the way certain types of people latch onto that spin, seemingly without an opinion of their own. I would find it rather interesting to see how opinions of other teams on here would chance if they had similar spin put on them. Not wanting to target the Irish, but it seems that the press/fans seem to like to use them as a comparison.

So lets take Leinster as an example. When was the last time they played a competitive game outside of Dublin? Surely they are not doing what they should to embrace the people of their province. After all their is only "One True Province" that is Munster, as they are willing to move their games around and actually show respect to the people of their province. Also lets be honest Leinster are stunting the Irish teams development with the number od NIQ players they bring through, after all the likes of Kirchner at fullback is preventing Mick McGrath or Colm O'Shea getting regular game time. This it is this self serving and disgraceful lack of interest in the higher levels of the game that is causing Ireland to falter internationally.

Yes you can all see that for the load of hairy danglers that it is. But that is because your aware of what actually goes on there, however if that was the only sort of press you read regarding Leinster then you would assume that they are in fact that bad. The regions are suffering from this.

I understand. And I actually agree with you. I can't remember the last time I saw a comment about the regions by a Welsh supporter that was actually positive. I can't remember seeing a positive mention in the media recently, or any positive discussion about them on here. It's been negativity, negativity, negativity- and being negative is not going to sell tickets. Which is a shame, because behind all of this Ospreys have actually had a brilliant start to the season and are playing some excellent rugby. Mixed fortunes for the other teams but some big games ahead for all concerned.

But how can that be turned around? I honestly don't know. At this stage, I would say the return of big name players from overseas en masse might give an injection of positivity but even then it seems that there will be people complaining about their game time being capped and them having to be rested for certain matches instead of celebrating being able to see them play.

by **Notch** Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:47 pm

lostinwales wrote:I really hope the University delivers. It has had a great history, but in more recent years the management seems to have been a lot more interested in their personal legacy than in looking after their staff.

Lots of reasons why for students it is a great place, but it can be poisonous behind the scenes

A lot of Universities are like that unfortunately.

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:09 pm

Notch wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Notch, maybe I am not being as clear as I could be (mainly because I am doing my best to make it clear I am not aiming comments at any one or any nationality). If all people ever say about the regions are negative comments, be it from disgruntled welsh fans, people from outside the country or whatever, then people start believing that everything is really that bad. If people would actually listen to the people who can put about a positive side to it, then maybe people would notice that actually things are progressing better than others would think.

The whole problem with the regions is the spin the press give them, and the way certain types of people latch onto that spin, seemingly without an opinion of their own. I would find it rather interesting to see how opinions of other teams on here would chance if they had similar spin put on them. Not wanting to target the Irish, but it seems that the press/fans seem to like to use them as a comparison.

So lets take Leinster as an example. When was the last time they played a competitive game outside of Dublin? Surely they are not doing what they should to embrace the people of their province. After all their is only "One True Province" that is Munster, as they are willing to move their games around and actually show respect to the people of their province. Also lets be honest Leinster are stunting the Irish teams development with the number od NIQ players they bring through, after all the likes of Kirchner at fullback is preventing Mick McGrath or Colm O'Shea getting regular game time. This it is this self serving and disgraceful lack of interest in the higher levels of the game that is causing Ireland to falter internationally.

Yes you can all see that for the load of hairy danglers that it is. But that is because your aware of what actually goes on there, however if that was the only sort of press you read regarding Leinster then you would assume that they are in fact that bad. The regions are suffering from this.

I understand. And I actually agree with you. I can't remember the last time I saw a comment about the regions by a Welsh supporter that was actually positive. I can't remember seeing a positive mention in the media recently, or any positive discussion about them on here. It's been negativity, negativity, negativity- and being negative is not going to sell tickets. Which is a shame, because behind all of this Ospreys have actually had a brilliant start to the season and are playing some excellent rugby. Mixed fortunes for the other teams but some big games ahead for all concerned.

But how can that be turned around? I honestly don't know. At this stage, I would say the return of big name players from overseas en masse might give an injection of positivity but even then it seems that there will be people complaining about their game time being capped and them having to be rested for certain matches instead of celebrating being able to see them play.

Being honest about what we have and then letting the 4 pro sides do their thing, whatever that may be. Just a suggestion.

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Breadvan wrote:It's a good question. Success is a good starter. Build a good team with all the structures and ethic and the results will take care of themselves. Munster and Leinster proved this with their HC wins. The top players will want to stay and the punters will want to come and see them play. Also, the Irish fans have really bought into watching the provinces. It seems to me that a match day feels like a whole family day/night out.
I don't know about the other regions but I fail too see what the Ospreys can do more in the community. Theyre always out and about in the 'Ospreylia' area promoting the region. It's a thankless task imo. General apathy and the unstoppable force of Swansea city is against them.

I do not agree with comparing the situation with football crowds compared to rugby crowds, you see the thing is there is only two pro football teams, one in the West of Wales, and one in the East of Wales, if we could combine the attendances from both the Blues and the Dragons, then you would not be far off the same crowds as Cardiff city get, also add in all the other clubs around the area who have big support, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale ect then you will see that there is not much of a difference in support, infact rugby will probably edge it, Swansea get about 28,000 people at home games each week, if you combined the Ospreys and Scarlets, and all the clubs like Neath, Bridgend,Camarthen Quins, Aberavon and you will probably see more fans watching rugby from the same catchment area, so the whole Cardiff City and Swansea City taking over is a bit of a myth really.

When I lived in Mumbles one thing that was very noticable was that people wore rugby shirts not football shirts. (Like the guy wearing an Australian rugby shirt on the day that England were playing Oz...)
I know its been covered in the past but the Liberty stadium, even though its very nice and shiney and (almost) new, its still a trek from the city and the train station. Obviously its not putting off the footy supporters, and the old Swansea rugby ground is pretty shabby, but its location is much better.

Believe it or not, but Wales is not the anti-English myopic country that you try and have everbody believe, for most of us, there is nothing better than watching England put one over on the big three from the SH, infact, we enjoy watching any side from the six nations putting one over on any of the big three.

I cheer on England against most teams apart from us of course and France sometimes.

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:21 pm

PenfroPete wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea. East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

No it isn't a real name - it is MUMBLES, there is no 'The'. Just as it is GOWER, there is no 'The'

but it's a real bugbear of mine

http://www.mumbles.co.uk/

There is no "THE" in Cardiff Blues either. That winds me up. "Gleision" too on S pedwar Eck. Leinster v Gleision my arse!

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:37 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I honestly don't give a flying to who wins when any other team is playing, I watch it for (hopefully) the enjoyment of the game.

Doubt i'll be urging on the Drags and the Terks much this season obviously.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:48 pm

Easy, win big in Europe then you get loads of glory hunter fans then when the team starts fading they can all boo the kicker and verbally abuse the ref,but when the dust settles you realize a fair few of them glory hunter fans actually become real fans a stay to enjoy the rugby win or lose.

Hence a net gain from winning big in Europe!

Not even the trophy just regular semi finalist would be a start for the Regions to get a larger fan base.

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:58 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Easy, win big in Europe then you get loads of glory hunter fans then when the team starts fading they can all boo the kicker and verbally abuse the ref,but when the dust settles you realize a fair few of them glory hunter fans actually become real fans a stay to enjoy the rugby win or lose.

Hence a net gain from winning big in Europe!

Not even the trophy just regular semi finalist would be a start for the Regions to get a larger fan base.

Like Cardiff did against Toulon in Marseille a few years ago, attendance 48,990?

by ScarletSpiderman Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:58 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:I honestly don't give a flying to who wins when any other team is playing, I watch it for (hopefully) the enjoyment of the game.

Doubt i'll be urging on the Drags and the Terks much this season obviously.

Ok I'm hurt after I was really hoping for you to win the Amlin Cup that season (purely unselfishly lol). To be honest now its top 6 + 1 Italian into Europe, there is no reason for not wanting all four regions to do well

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:15 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:I honestly don't give a flying to who wins when any other team is playing, I watch it for (hopefully) the enjoyment of the game.

Doubt i'll be urging on the Drags and the Terks much this season obviously.

Ok I'm hurt after I was really hoping for you to win the Amlin Cup that season (purely unselfishly lol). To be honest now its top 6 + 1 Italian into Europe, there is no reason for not wanting all four regions to do well

Yeah whatever and I was absolutely gutted for you lot out West when Stimpson was best and nailed THAT penalty. Very Happy

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:37 pm

Cherish the name "Llanelli" and use it.

by **Notch** Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:49 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea. East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

No it isn't a real name - it is MUMBLES, there is no 'The'. Just as it is GOWER, there is no 'The'

but it's a real bugbear of mine

http://www.mumbles.co.uk/

There is no "THE" in Cardiff Blues either. That winds me up. "Gleision" too on S pedwar Eck. Leinster v Gleision my arse!

So your problem is that they get called the Blues?

by The Saint Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:49 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What is it you want the WRU to allow the regions to do?

The provinces in Ireland work tirelessly to go into communities ranging from rugby camps, to school visits and meet and greets with players.

Like Mick Dawson said success and having big names has helped Leinster and the other provinces. Central contracts will help Welsh rugby but it'll take time, while the big names have been heading elsewhere for cash the big names and success have been lacking at times.

The WRU do hamstring the regions though, not so long back Andrew Hore was dragged over the coals by Roger Lewis for wanting a more hands on approach within his own region, he wanted to do more things, but he is stunted by only doing what the WRU allow them to do, recently Tonga agreed to a one off match during the AI against the Ospreys but the WRU stopped it from happening, the regions could do an awful lot more, but sadly the WRU will not let them.

And the regions refused until recently to allow central contracts and were happy to see big names with some drawing power disappear of to France and England. Both parties have done damage to the game but the root cause is that not enough buy into the identity of the regions because of club affiliation

I'd say neither side were willing to submit to the other, as opposed to both doing damage to the game. Both actually do a lot of good for the grass roots, when you get past that level however...

All the top names had jumped ship and they had to reach an ultimatum. Dual contracts were probably the last resort for both parties, and it seems like it could work out well. Gats had a say in matters too, which probably helped them reach an agreement. All that and so his scout (Roger the Dodger) could stay in power and pretend he was the one that resolved matters. Like Wayne says though, I think you know fairly little as do most inside and outside of Wales. I hardly know what's going on myself.

p.s. Regional attendances were similar to the attendances of the club days. Maybe there just isn't enough supporters.

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Notch wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea. East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

No it isn't a real name - it is MUMBLES, there is no 'The'. Just as it is GOWER, there is no 'The'

but it's a real bugbear of mine

http://www.mumbles.co.uk/

There is no "THE" in Cardiff Blues either. That winds me up. "Gleision" too on S pedwar Eck. Leinster v Gleision my arse!

So your problem is that they get called the Blues?

Call a spade a blydi spade I say.

and it's not Caeredin v Gweilch either, but Ulster v Connacht is ok apparently.

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:06 pm

The Saint wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What is it you want the WRU to allow the regions to do?

The provinces in Ireland work tirelessly to go into communities ranging from rugby camps, to school visits and meet and greets with players.

Like Mick Dawson said success and having big names has helped Leinster and the other provinces. Central contracts will help Welsh rugby but it'll take time, while the big names have been heading elsewhere for cash the big names and success have been lacking at times.

The WRU do hamstring the regions though, not so long back Andrew Hore was dragged over the coals by Roger Lewis for wanting a more hands on approach within his own region, he wanted to do more things, but he is stunted by only doing what the WRU allow them to do, recently Tonga agreed to a one off match during the AI against the Ospreys but the WRU stopped it from happening, the regions could do an awful lot more, but sadly the WRU will not let them.

And the regions refused until recently to allow central contracts and were happy to see big names with some drawing power disappear of to France and England. Both parties have done damage to the game but the root cause is that not enough buy into the identity of the regions because of club affiliation

I'd say neither side were willing to submit to the other, as opposed to both doing damage to the game. Both actually do a lot of good for the grass roots, when you get past that level however...

All the top names had jumped ship and they had to reach an ultimatum. Dual contracts were probably the last resort for both parties, and it seems like it could work out well. Gats had a say in matters too, which probably helped them reach an agreement. All that and so his scout (Roger the Dodger) could stay in power and pretend he was the one that resolved matters. Like Wayne says though, I think you know fairly little as do most inside and outside of Wales. I hardly know what's going on myself.

p.s. Regional attendances were similar to the attendances of the club days. Maybe there just isn't enough supporters.

a bit bigger when Jenks and Howley were 9 and 10.

by **Notch** Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:48 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Notch wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea. East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

No it isn't a real name - it is MUMBLES, there is no 'The'. Just as it is GOWER, there is no 'The'

but it's a real bugbear of mine

http://www.mumbles.co.uk/

There is no "THE" in Cardiff Blues either. That winds me up. "Gleision" too on S pedwar Eck. Leinster v Gleision my arse!

So your problem is that they get called the Blues?

Call a spade a blydi spade I say.

and it's not Caeredin v Gweilch either, but Ulster v Connacht is ok apparently.

If it was on TG4 it would be Uladh vs Connacht

by Cardiff Dave Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:14 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Said it before and mentioned it again but a lot of it is a generation thing.

(Some) of us of a certain age who remember the clubs will always want it the way it was and will think it was better then (was it really) but the kids of today don't know anything other that the Regions and that's where they should be concentrating a lot of their marketing on, something I know the Dragons are doing.

Education, education, education, eh?

by SecretFly Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:17 am

Look, thing is that comes in pretty handy when you're trying to construct a sentence that means something. Is pretty central to the English language. Code breakers even use it as one of their key starting points when trying to unlock secrets of a new code. How many letters repeated in certain structures can often lead them to key English words like.

So, let's not ban from the Language. It would be ever so annoying to have to go over and over what you wrote to make sure offensive word wasn't included that would make you instant target of ire of haters.

Let's be sensible. Live and let live. World is a big place. There is plenty of room for.

by wayne Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:09 pm

Notch wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Notch wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea. East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

No it isn't a real name - it is MUMBLES, there is no 'The'. Just as it is GOWER, there is no 'The'

but it's a real bugbear of mine

http://www.mumbles.co.uk/

There is no "THE" in Cardiff Blues either. That winds me up. "Gleision" too on S pedwar Eck. Leinster v Gleision my arse!

So your problem is that they get called the Blues?

Call a spade a blydi spade I say.

and it's not Caeredin v Gweilch either, but Ulster v Connacht is ok apparently.

If it was on TG4 it would be Uladh vs Connacht

Notch, why anybody tuning into a TV station designed for a certain section of the Population expect the teams to be called anything other than the translations into said language is beyond me, AFAIK there is no Welsh translation for Ulster or Connacht, yet there is for Edinburgh, Blues and Ospreys, if they don't want to hear these names either turn the sound off or as it is now, turn to the English Translation version.
Just to add I'm a 67 year old ex Electrician who for the past 3 and a bit years have been learning WELSH and just wish I'd have had the time and inclination to try and learn it many years ago, when as I can see with some of my fellow learners who are a lot younger it would have been a lot easier.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:29 pm

Wayne at 67 your still a nipper for an electrician (based on the ones I know), so plenty of time to learn the language. Good on you.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:52 pm

wayne wrote:
Notch wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Notch wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea. East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

No it isn't a real name - it is MUMBLES, there is no 'The'. Just as it is GOWER, there is no 'The'

but it's a real bugbear of mine

http://www.mumbles.co.uk/

There is no "THE" in Cardiff Blues either. That winds me up. "Gleision" too on S pedwar Eck. Leinster v Gleision my arse!

So your problem is that they get called the Blues?

Call a spade a blydi spade I say.

and it's not Caeredin v Gweilch either, but Ulster v Connacht is ok apparently.

If it was on TG4 it would be Uladh vs Connacht
Notch, why anybody tuning into a TV station designed for a certain section of the Population expect the teams to be called anything other than the translations into said language is beyond me, AFAIK there is no Welsh translation for Ulster or Connacht, yet there is for Edinburgh, Blues and Ospreys, if they don't want to hear these names either turn the sound off or as it is now, turn to the English Translation version.
Just to add I'm a 67 year old ex Electrician who for the past 3 and a bit years have been learning WELSH and just wish I'd have had the time and inclination to try and learn it many years ago, when as I can see with some of my fellow learners who are a lot younger it would have been a lot easier.

Wayne I can speak Welsh, it is a beautiful language, except when you have to use other words to describe things, did you know that welsh is one of the oldest languages on the planet, it has been used since time began. I still do sometimes get baffled though when listening to Welsh on the tele, especially when they use the English words as there is no word in Welsh for them. Also, and I kid you not, this really happened, my wife's cousin does a lot of work with farms, he breeds his own Jack Russles, anyway he asked me to go to Mid Wales with him, just north of Newtown, because the farmers and villaigers there only speek Welsh, this one farmer I was speaking to, I am sure he was making up his own language. Laugh

by wayne Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:56 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne at 67 your still a nipper for an electrician (based on the ones I know), so plenty of time to learn the language. Good on you.

SS, these mutations are a barsteward, I did a single course the first year, then was cajoled into doing 4 courses in the following year, again a single course (Canolradd 1) last year and Canolradd 2 now, because of the 4 courses in one year not a lot of information managed to stick and I'm really struggling, but I'll stick at it.
Thanks for the encouragement, much appreciated.

by wayne Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wayne wrote:
Notch wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Notch wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Well I'd guess that everywhere was a village west of somewhere else before modernity allowed the eastern bit to chew up the western village.

That's the history of the world right there in.... em, Mumbles (is that a real name or a nickname?) v Swansea. East eats West - West fights back.

The Mumbles is a real name and linked (I believe) to the way a couple of rocks rise out of the sea by the lighthouse.

Could be worse. Just check out the derivation for the name of the Cornish village Mousehole...

No it isn't a real name - it is MUMBLES, there is no 'The'. Just as it is GOWER, there is no 'The'

but it's a real bugbear of mine

http://www.mumbles.co.uk/

There is no "THE" in Cardiff Blues either. That winds me up. "Gleision" too on S pedwar Eck. Leinster v Gleision my arse!

So your problem is that they get called the Blues?

Call a spade a blydi spade I say.

and it's not Caeredin v Gweilch either, but Ulster v Connacht is ok apparently.

If it was on TG4 it would be Uladh vs Connacht
Notch, why anybody tuning into a TV station designed for a certain section of the Population expect the teams to be called anything other than the translations into said language is beyond me, AFAIK there is no Welsh translation for Ulster or Connacht, yet there is for Edinburgh, Blues and Ospreys, if they don't want to hear these names either turn the sound off or as it is now, turn to the English Translation version.
Just to add I'm a 67 year old ex Electrician who for the past 3 and a bit years have been learning WELSH and just wish I'd have had the time and inclination to try and learn it many years ago, when as I can see with some of my fellow learners who are a lot younger it would have been a lot easier.

Wayne I can speak Welsh, it is a beautiful language, except when you have to use other words to describe things, did you know that welsh is one of the oldest languages on the planet, it has been used since time began. I still do sometimes get baffled though when listening to Welsh on the tele, especially when they use the English words as there is no word in Welsh for them. Also, and I kid you not, this really happened, my wife's cousin does a lot of work with farms, he breeds his own Jack Russles, anyway he asked me to go to Mid Wales with him, just north of Newtown, because the farmers and villaigers there only speek Welsh, this one farmer I was speaking to, I am sure he was making up his own language.

Lord, yes it is, I really try to watch all the games on S4C, I'm also hard of hearing (I really need a good gun), I have great difficulty listening and translating, yet the written word I'm not too bad.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:06 pm

The best welsh language one around our way was a roadworks sign I saw in South Pembs, it was meant to say 'Raised Man Holes' but read "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" simple google translate attempt, big mistranslate.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:12 pm

wayne wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne at 67 your still a nipper for an electrician (based on the ones I know), so plenty of time to learn the language. Good on you.
SS, these mutations are a barsteward, I did a single course the first year, then was cajoled into doing 4 courses in the following year, again a single course (Canolradd 1) last year and Canolradd 2 now, because of the 4 courses in one year not a lot of information managed to stick and I'm really struggling, but I'll stick at it.
Thanks for the encouragement, much appreciated.

Wayne when you get to grips with the basics of the Welsh language you will fly it, most things in english are the same, so in Welsh for example, you would use for the beach, you would use treath, but treath is used for sand as well, so in essence, I am going to the beach, in Welsh is Yr wyf yn mynd i'r traeth, but when you translate that as a matter of fact, I am going in the sand, it is all down to how you perceive it rather than how you take it literally. thumbsup

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:16 pm

I can't remember the words, but doesn't icicles translate as 'finger of ice' or something like that?

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:24 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The best welsh language one around our way was a roadworks sign I saw in South Pembs, it was meant to say 'Raised Man Holes' but read "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" simple google translate attempt, big mistranslate.

The thing is, as I would imagine google translate will translate it as it is, and we all know that we use our words all back to front, like Castell Coch, which word for word means Castle red, when it should be Red Castle, Coch Castell. I would translate that in my own mind "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" as the holes high up, or in the air, or something to that meaning, but you would now what it meant.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:26 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I can't remember the words, but doesn't icicles translate as 'finger of ice' or something like that?

There is about four different way of saying icicles:-

pibonwy, bibonwy, mhibonwy, phibonwy

there might be more. Doh

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:30 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:The best welsh language one around our way was a roadworks sign I saw in South Pembs, it was meant to say 'Raised Man Holes' but read "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" simple google translate attempt, big mistranslate.

The thing is, as I would imagine google translate will translate it as it is, and we all know that we use our words all back to front, like Castell Coch, which word for word means Castle red, when it should be Red Castle, Coch Castell. I would translate that in my own mind "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" as the holes high up, or in the air, or something to that meaning, but you would now what it meant.

Isn't it English that is back to front, as every other language (well all the ones I know bits of) work the same where it is 'item' then 'description' and not the other way around.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:39 pm

The funniest way of looking at the Welsh language is when you look at the last few word of Sospan Fach:-

A gwt ei grys e mas.

Now to me this means that little Dai (Dai Bach) is wearing a scruffy shirt, but officially it means that and his shirt tail is hanging out. Word for word though it translates and his shirt tail out. So it really is how you see it personally.

by wayne Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:47 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:The best welsh language one around our way was a roadworks sign I saw in South Pembs, it was meant to say 'Raised Man Holes' but read "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" simple google translate attempt, big mistranslate.

The thing is, as I would imagine google translate will translate it as it is, and we all know that we use our words all back to front, like Castell Coch, which word for word means Castle red, when it should be Red Castle, Coch Castell. I would translate that in my own mind "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" as the holes high up, or in the air, or something to that meaning, but you would now what it meant.

Isn't it English that is back to front, as every other language (well all the ones I know bits of) work the same where it is 'item' then 'description' and not the other way around.

I think brain cell losses work negatively exponentially and I'm down to about 7 now, yes as you say most other languages do work in an opposite way to English, Lord going back to your other post about going to Mid Wales, I used to own a Pub in West Wales and the Welsh they spoke there was so different to what was spoken on S4C, I suppose it is a bit like Geordie, Brummie and Cockney in England.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:55 pm

wayne wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:The best welsh language one around our way was a roadworks sign I saw in South Pembs, it was meant to say 'Raised Man Holes' but read "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" simple google translate attempt, big mistranslate.

The thing is, as I would imagine google translate will translate it as it is, and we all know that we use our words all back to front, like Castell Coch, which word for word means Castle red, when it should be Red Castle, Coch Castell. I would translate that in my own mind "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" as the holes high up, or in the air, or something to that meaning, but you would now what it meant.

Isn't it English that is back to front, as every other language (well all the ones I know bits of) work the same where it is 'item' then 'description' and not the other way around.
I think brain cell losses work negatively exponentially and I'm down to about 7 now, yes as you say most other languages do work in an opposite way to English, Lord going back to your other post about going to Mid Wales, I used to own a Pub in West Wales and the Welsh they spoke there was so different to what was spoken on S4C, I suppose it is a bit like Geordie, Brummie and Cockney in England.

The funniest part of that conversation was when I was trying to explain the ditch he had around his field, and how deep it was because there was water in it, I was using the word clawdd, but he did not understand it, he thought I was talking about the boundary, we then settled on the word ffos or trench in English, but you can see where the confusion was. laughing

by wayne Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wayne wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:The best welsh language one around our way was a roadworks sign I saw in South Pembs, it was meant to say 'Raised Man Holes' but read "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" simple google translate attempt, big mistranslate.

The thing is, as I would imagine google translate will translate it as it is, and we all know that we use our words all back to front, like Castell Coch, which word for word means Castle red, when it should be Red Castle, Coch Castell. I would translate that in my own mind "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" as the holes high up, or in the air, or something to that meaning, but you would now what it meant.

Isn't it English that is back to front, as every other language (well all the ones I know bits of) work the same where it is 'item' then 'description' and not the other way around.
I think brain cell losses work negatively exponentially and I'm down to about 7 now, yes as you say most other languages do work in an opposite way to English, Lord going back to your other post about going to Mid Wales, I used to own a Pub in West Wales and the Welsh they spoke there was so different to what was spoken on S4C, I suppose it is a bit like Geordie, Brummie and Cockney in England.

The funniest part of that conversation was when I was trying to explain the ditch he had around his field, and how deep it was because there was water in it, I was using the word clawdd, but he did not understand it, he thought I was talking about the boundary, we then settled on the word ffos or trench in English, but you can see where the confusion was.

I had to go get my dictionary out to see where you were coming from, yes I understand now it is a bit like caled and anodd, it really is hard if you get what I mean.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:11 pm

wayne wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
wayne wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:The best welsh language one around our way was a roadworks sign I saw in South Pembs, it was meant to say 'Raised Man Holes' but read "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" simple google translate attempt, big mistranslate.

The thing is, as I would imagine google translate will translate it as it is, and we all know that we use our words all back to front, like Castell Coch, which word for word means Castle red, when it should be Red Castle, Coch Castell. I would translate that in my own mind "Dyn tyllau Godwyd" as the holes high up, or in the air, or something to that meaning, but you would now what it meant.

Isn't it English that is back to front, as every other language (well all the ones I know bits of) work the same where it is 'item' then 'description' and not the other way around.
I think brain cell losses work negatively exponentially and I'm down to about 7 now, yes as you say most other languages do work in an opposite way to English, Lord going back to your other post about going to Mid Wales, I used to own a Pub in West Wales and the Welsh they spoke there was so different to what was spoken on S4C, I suppose it is a bit like Geordie, Brummie and Cockney in England.

The funniest part of that conversation was when I was trying to explain the ditch he had around his field, and how deep it was because there was water in it, I was using the word clawdd, but he did not understand it, he thought I was talking about the boundary, we then settled on the word ffos or trench in English, but you can see where the confusion was.
I had to go get my dictionary out to see where you were coming from, yes I understand now it is a bit like caled and anodd, it really is hard if you get what I mean.

There you go, two different words, two different meanings, but when used in context, they could mean the same thing.

by dummy_half Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:40 pm

Just read through this thread, and my final conclusion is that it's no surprise you can't get the WRU and the Regions to agree on anything if you can't even agree on the basic meaning of words Smile

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:53 pm

dummy_half wrote:Just read through this thread, and my final conclusion is that it's no surprise you can't get the WRU and the Regions to agree on anything if you can't even agree on the basic meaning of words

Saesneg eofn. Hug

by Intotouch Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:41 pm

I laughed my head off reading this article! "Hurling and gaelic football are over (summer sports) and there isn't really pro soccer in Dublin"!!! What?? Since when? It's true that you'd have to add together the attendances of the three pro soccer teams in Dublin that I know to get the same numbers that Leinster do, but they've been around an awful lot longer and have far more junior players around the city than Leinster do, but this guy has decided that they don't exist! And that no one thinks about gaelic games after September? Dream on! This man has got to wander out of D4 and meet the rest of the city. Yes the Leinster players earn the most of pro sportsmen in Dublin but in terms of support for different sports there's a lot more going on than what is described.
The provinces win stuff. That helps. A lot. Try that Welsh regions and watch the attendances grow.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:45 am

Intotouch wrote:I laughed my head off reading this article! "Hurling and gaelic football are over (summer sports) and there isn't really pro soccer in Dublin"!!! What?? Since when? It's true that you'd have to add together the attendances of the three pro soccer teams in Dublin that I know to get the same numbers that Leinster do, but they've been around an awful lot longer and have far more junior players around the city than Leinster do, but this guy has decided that they don't exist! And that no one thinks about gaelic games after September? Dream on! This man has got to wander out of D4 and meet the rest of the city. Yes the Leinster players earn the most of pro sportsmen in Dublin but in terms of support for different sports there's a lot more going on than what is described.
The provinces win stuff. That helps. A lot. Try that Welsh regions and watch the attendances grow.

Haven't the Ospreys won the league 4 times, the Blues won the Amlin, the Scarlets won the league? Also there are anglo-Welsh titles in there too. But yeah I guess we need to start winning stuff Whistle

by LordDowlais Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:58 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Intotouch wrote:I laughed my head off reading this article! "Hurling and gaelic football are over (summer sports) and there isn't really pro soccer in Dublin"!!! What?? Since when? It's true that you'd have to add together the attendances of the three pro soccer teams in Dublin that I know to get the same numbers that Leinster do, but they've been around an awful lot longer and have far more junior players around the city than Leinster do, but this guy has decided that they don't exist! And that no one thinks about gaelic games after September? Dream on! This man has got to wander out of D4 and meet the rest of the city. Yes the Leinster players earn the most of pro sportsmen in Dublin but in terms of support for different sports there's a lot more going on than what is described.
The provinces win stuff. That helps. A lot. Try that Welsh regions and watch the attendances grow.

Haven't the Ospreys won the league 4 times, the Blues won the Amlin, the Scarlets won the league? Also there are anglo-Welsh titles in there too. But yeah I guess we need to start winning stuff

It does make me laugh when I keep seeing that old bumf being rolled out, I mean come on, the Ospreys have won the league 4 times, twice winning it out in Leinster against there HC winning side as well, what I think people do drag us down about is the fact that the regions do not look like winning the HC, and that is a stick they will keep on beating us with until they do win unfortunatley.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:23 am

Lord, it is pretty much just like my first comment on this thread said, the regions can do everything in their power but they are fighting against a press and wider public (again mainly from outside) that love to look at the negatives and ignore anything else. Event he whole attendance thing is a joke. The Scarlets had the third best attendance in the league a few seasons ago, but that was not praised as an improvement, it was just ignored by the majority.

by **Notch** Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:42 am

LordDowlais wrote:Also, and I kid you not, this really happened, my wife's cousin does a lot of work with farms, he breeds his own Jack Russles, anyway he asked me to go to Mid Wales with him, just north of Newtown, because the farmers and villaigers there only speek Welsh, this one farmer I was speaking to, I am sure he was making up his own language.

That is brilliant

by Intotouch Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:15 pm

Hi. Sorry for that post. I didn't mean it as an insult although of course it is now that I read it again.
I think the reasons given in the article for why Leinster are popular are mostly rubbish and that attendance increases have everything to do with winning the h cup. And I don't mean this as a stick to beat Welsh fans with, I just think that's the reason that Leinster are popular.
I'm sure winning the pro 12 helped atttendances for the Ospreys too. If each Welsh side had that success maybe their attendances would be better.
Sadly I think that winning in Europe may be what fans really want to see. Attendances have dropped over the last couple of years in Munster and it's largely, in my opinion, to do with not being seen as real contenders. Hopefully I'm wrong but I think rugby fans in Ireland care too much about winning or at least getting a good shot at winning, particularly in Europe.

by SecretFly Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:25 am

I do have a major issue though with the concept, the philosophy, the ideology, the whateveryamightcallit!!! - that states: It's the taking part that counts.

It isn't. And that philosophy was either created by Winners to patronise Losers - or - it was created by Losers themselves to justify their presence in events designed to find Winners.

In any contest that declares a Winner, the object should be to win and fans have a right to get annoyed if they feel their players and team have the more laid back attitude of: "Sure, don't yis get to enjoy the social element bit and have a bit of craic during the year. So we're not good enough to win anything but that doesn't mean you should desert us and demand that we win things"

Yep...we do. We do demand that you win things - be that individual games on the day or entire contests. The bigger the things the better too. Pro12 fine - Europe better. World Cup - better still!

Sometimes mediocrity comes along regardless of fan wishes and desires though. Yearly or decade long slumps do arrive. But I think fans still hold the right to care about little but Winning - even during slumps.

by LordDowlais Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:39 am

Since putting this article up and witnessing the crowd for the Osprey V Blues game yesterday at first hand, my theory has come to light, there IS too much rugby in Wales to go around, also, you cannot underestimate the difference away fans make when swelling up attendances, the Cardiff Blues will never take as many fans to Ireland or Scotland as they took to the Ospreys yesterday, the same as the Irish or Scottish teams will not bring as many fans to away games, and it struck me, yesterday was like the days of old, when the top teams would always attract bumper crowds against one another, the geography in the Pro 12 means that the teams are over relying on home support, I would wager that most of the attendance figures in England are boosted by away fans, because they do not have to catch a plane or a boat to get to watch their team play away from home, after witnessing first hand what I saw yesterday, for me the future looks bright, the regions are playing a lot of very young players, and as soon as the dual contracts are sorted, then when we keep our best players here, we will not only see more competitive teams but better supported teams as well.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:35 am

Lord I agree with what you are saying. It is very rare to see many fans from Edinburgh, Connacht, Treviso or Zebre, and even sides like Glasgow, Ulster, Munster and Leinster don't always turn up with huge support (depending on the day of the game Fri/Sun are bad).

Anither thing, not sure how many people watched Scrum V Live on Friday night, but my comments about their negativity towards the regions were pretty much backed up. The pundits commented on how good/respectful the Irish crowds are towards the kicker, during a silence whilst JJ was kicking, however did not mention that the same crowd were giving the wwwwoooooaaaaaAAAHHHH as Priest was kicking. The pundits also kept banging on about the Scarlets missing 6pts from the boot in the first half, which would have seen them in the lead, but failed to mention Munster had also missed 5pts with the boot, which would have kept them in the lead. And at no point did anyone mention there were huge gaps in the crowd, the closest they came to mentioning it was saying 'Thomand isn't as much of a fortress as it used to be'. But hey-ho....

by SecretFly Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:15 pm

I might suggest that if Foley is the real deal (and it is still a big if) but if he is, and he certainly seems to have shifted the focus back to Munster players getting back to their physicality roots, then I'd suggest the 'fortress' might be back in operation sooner than folks thought it would be.

It wasn't the greatest game - no, correct there ...but there were times in it when Munster had a traditional menacing, bloodthirsty attitude about them. Even I was beginning to feel like a long lost friend had returned in sections.

I suppose it goes back to what's been said before. It's not about attendance numbers or the advertising science behind getting them, or about funding or deals in offices. It's about 15 players playing a game first that gets the fans more primal urges going. It's about getting fire into the bellies of the fans who DO turn up and then by word of mouth or by catching them on TV, the word gets around that this team are worth turning up for.

The team are always under that pressure - playing a game that is worth turning up for.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:26 pm

Fly that is indeed true, but there is also a sales aspect to it as well. If you are selling a sandwich, and it has really good filling, and tastes really good, theoretically it should sell well. However, if a potential customer is standing outside the shop and see a food critic walking out saying "it has the potential to be a good sandwich except...." then that will put people off.

by LordDowlais Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:35 pm

The thing is, Welsh rugby IS thriving, anybody who says otherwise are just ignorant, we keep on producing players of a high quality, we are always competitive on the international front, we are even competitive domestically as well, although we might find Europe a bridge to far, Pontypridd have just put English division 1 leaders London Scottish to the sword, and as soon as one player from the regions goes abroad for the money, there is always somebody else to step in and take their place, so for me, rugby in Wales is more than holding it's own, it's just that, as SS has been saying, too many people focus on the negatives all the time.

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