European Challenge Cup - Bordeaux-Begles V Edinburgh

by **RDW** Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:07 am

Bordeaux-Begles V Edinburgh Rugby

Friday 17th October
19:00 BST
Stade André Moga
Bègles

Referee: Neil Hennessy (Wales)
Assistant referees: Chris Williams (Wales), Martyn Lewis (Wales)
Timekeeper: Gilles Cogne (France)
Assessor: Eric Darriere (France)

Last 5 Results

Bordeaux-Begles

BB 59 - Castres 7 Shocked

BB 51 - Clermont 21 Shocked

Brive 34 - BB 21
La Rochelle 26 - BB 29
BB 27 - Montpellier 21

Edinburgh Rugby

Edinburgh 24 - Dragons 10
Ulster 30 - Edinburgh 0 Erm

Edinburgh 20 - Scarlets 20 Rolling Eyes

Ospreys 62 - Edinburgh 13 picard

Edinburgh 13 - Connacht 14 thumbsdown

Teams

Bordeaux-Begles
[TBC]

Edinburgh Rugby
15 Greig Tonks
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser
10 Phil Burleigh
9 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 Willem Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Grant Gilchrist
6 Tomas Leonardi
7 Hamish Watson
8 Mike Coman (c)

16 James Hilterbrand
17 Allan Dell
18 John Andress
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Roddy Grant
21 Sean Kennedy
22 Tom Heathcote
23 Nick McLennan

Blurb

Well I have to confess I know very little about Bordeaux-Begles (BB), but their last 5 results are truly frightening. They are obviously the surprise package of the Top 14 this year and have put some cricket scores past vaunted opposition. However, I wonder how much interest they will have in ths competition, especially given their good form in the Top 14 just now.

Edinburgh on the other hand have varied from woeful to just about acceptable, with the former happening more often than not. A confidence boosting win over the Dragons will have helped, and I can't help but think Edinburgh need this more then BB. Edinburgh have some real injury problems in the backrow just now, and will be interesting to see whether Solomons picks some youngsters. I won't be holding my breath on that one.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:18 am

Any team that has skooshed 51 points on Clermont or 59 on Castres probably has our number.

Certainly our defence doesn't have guys like Julian Bonnaire, Aurelian Rougerie and Wes Fofana.

by **George Carlin** Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:28 am

They finished 8th in the Top 14 last year - not bad for a team that only got promoted in 2011. I always saw them as a solid local outfit for whom home was a bit of fortress - I think Asbo's Chiefs are the closest analogous team.

If they've got Jean-Baptiste Poux playing for them, then that's already quite a scary front row and I think that Lionel Beauxis is currently in one of his 'not rubbish' phases.

Losing Du Preez really is an absolute disaster.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:30 am

I think we'll take a pasting here. These guys clearly know how to score tries, and we haven't got a clue how to prevent them. Plus it's away from home, and we don't have a ball carrier in the back row.

by whocares Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:55 am

UBB are currently walking on water in the T14. every tiny thing seem to go their way at the moment and have had their share of good luck as well. to be honest the castres games was another great advert of running rugby but Castres capitulated after 30 minutes ... Castres poor defence made Beauxis look like Cooper ! :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hpzHjeyRII&feature=youtu.be

with one of the lowest budget of the T14, they have some good underrated players and some old toulouse leftovers (Poux, Beauxis) and ex Perpignan ones.
they have better depth this season (specially at 9 and 10) so might be able to field a decent team in the challenge cup for a change.

by **George Carlin** Tue 14 Oct 2014, 12:04 pm

Thanks WhoCares.

I am also interested in the amusingly Scottish names in the BB squad - surely Blair Connor and Hugh Chalmers have a Scottish granny at least?

Hugh Chalmers sounds like the head of the Rotary Club living next door to FES in his Stockbridge townhouse.

by PenfroPete Tue 14 Oct 2014, 12:06 pm

RDW -

Referee: Neil Hennessy (Wales)

Will let you know if and when I get any info on AR's and TMO

by whocares Tue 14 Oct 2014, 12:31 pm

George Carlin wrote:Thanks WhoCares.

I am also interested in the amusingly Scottish names in the BB squad - surely Blair Connor and Hugh Chalmers have a Scottish granny at least?

Hugh Chalmers sounds like the head of the Rotary Club living next door to FES in his Stockbridge townhouse.

Blair Connor seems like a decent chap, good winger, not very bulky but intelligent and fast. was out of job at the Reds and moved to south west france when he was 21 as he's also a keen surfer. he said he would like to play for france (his way to say thanks). Hugh Chalmers, another great story : kiwi that went to london irish aged 19..didnt quite work out so spent some time working in a kindergarten to make some money , went back to NZ and re-appereaed in 3rd division team Bobigby where he was spotted by UBB president (or his agent). he joined the team 6 years ago when in 2nd division and vehiculates the values of the team very well. he's alos one of the best line out operators of the T14.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 14 Oct 2014, 12:48 pm

George Carlin wrote:Thanks WhoCares.

I am also interested in the amusingly Scottish names in the BB squad - surely Blair Connor and Hugh Chalmers have a Scottish granny at least?

Hugh Chalmers sounds like the head of the Rotary Club living next door to FES in his Stockbridge townhouse.

Good egg I'll have you know. What What.

by JonnyEdinburgh Tue 14 Oct 2014, 1:35 pm

Looking for some consistency in putting up a fight away from home - that has been rare in recent seasons. On the odd occasion we put up a fight away from home (Munster) it is invariably followed by a few spankings - and this really does have spanking written all over it! A LBP would be a decent result here.

Looking forward to seeing how Solly will approach this as well. Must say I will be very hacked off if he sacrifices this tournament in pursuit of a top 6 in the Pro 12.
I know this may be old ground but if these were the only options would folk rather:
Finish 6th in Pro12 (and qualify for Champions Cup), and flop in the group stage of this.
or
Finish 7th/8th in Pro12 (and not qualify) but go on to win this tournament?

by funnyExiledScot Tue 14 Oct 2014, 2:01 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see some rotation, and he may feel that of all the fixtures in this group he can sacrifice this and go for the more winnable games.

My team:

1.Sutherland 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Bresler 5.Gilchrist 6.Leonardi 7.Watson 8.Coman 9.Hidalgo-Clyne 10.Tonks 11.Visser 12.Burleigh 13.Dominguez 14.Fife 15.Cuthbert

by **RDW** Tue 14 Oct 2014, 2:12 pm

From a player management perspective the only players that really need a rest soon are heathcoat, visser and maybe Ford. The rest have either had a break or are only just back from injury - Dickinson, Gilchrist, bresler, Watson, fife and Tonks should be fairly fresh.

I agree though that it is a good chance to freshen up the squad and am so give players a chance to impress. I think he should stick with Gilchrist and bresler as much as possible though

Sutherland, McKenzie, Sam H-C and Hurley in particular should see some gametime, if even just off the bench.

Saying that I reckon something like

Dickinson
Hilterbrand (God help us
Nel
Gilchrist
Bresler
Leonardi
Watson
Coman

Sam H-C
Tonks (hopefully)
McLennan (visser due a rest soon
Hurley
Beard
Fife
Cuthbert

Sutherland, Ford, Andress, McKenzie, Grant, Kennedy, heathcoat, ?

by Hound of Harrow Tue 14 Oct 2014, 2:17 pm

Will any team take the Challenge Cup seriously when winning it does not see a team progress to the senior competition the following season?

French clubs have (bar Stade Français) not given a stuff about the Amlin. But UBB are coached by Raphael Ibanez, with Joe Worsley as defence coach. Those guys won the HC with Wasps so they have respect for European competitions.

But whether the club owner feels the same is a different matter.

They are being applauded for the adventurous and entertaining rugby they are playing. Most AP teams would struggle to contain then atm.

by VinceWLB Tue 14 Oct 2014, 5:02 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think we'll take a pasting here. These guys clearly know how to score tries, and we haven't got a clue how to prevent them. Plus it's away from home, and we don't have a ball carrier in the back row.

Leonardi is one of the best ball carrier at the club, for what it's worth i thought he carried the ball better than du Preez in the last few games.

I don't want to blame Solomons once again but du Preez started his 6th game in a row against the Dragons, there is a fair chance he would have been rested for this one, very unfortunate really.

As for Hilterbrand he is very poor, i much prefered that 55 years old tongan, McInally injury is incredibly badly timed too.

I don't think the game is on tv unfortunately or should i say thankfully!

by funnyExiledScot Tue 14 Oct 2014, 5:47 pm

It's just a shame that Neil Cochrane is injured as well. World Class.

by Hound of Harrow Tue 14 Oct 2014, 10:11 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's just a shame that Neil Cochrane is injured as well. World Class.

Should there be an emoticon after that.....

Whistle

I know he is/was Scotland U20s captain, but he didn't get much of a look in last season at Wasps. Festuccia and Lindsay were well ahead of him at hooker, He has played Championship rugby (Wasps signed him from Bedford iirc) and while it's better than playing no rugby , Premiership standard it ain't.

Good luck to him though.

by niwatts Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:13 pm

Hound of Harrow wrote:Will any team take the Challenge Cup seriously when winning it does not see a team progress to the senior competition the following season?

French clubs have (bar Stade Français) not given a stuff about the Amlin. But UBB are coached by Raphael Ibanez, with Joe Worsley as defence coach. Those guys won the HC with Wasps so they have respect for European competitions.

But whether the club owner feels the same is a different matter.

They are being applauded for the adventurous and entertaining rugby they are playing. Most AP teams would struggle to contain then atm.

I'm not sure how seriously sides took it (for most of the season at least) as a route to the senior competition even when it was direct qualification rather than entry into the 20th spot play-offs as it is now. To be fair that was also when the Heineken Cup sides used to parachute in to the knock-out stages and win it anyway though. I'd be surprised if the teams likely to win this finished below 7th in their league this year, but a reason why a number might take it relatively seriously is that not being some of the wealthier clubs in their league, without the parachutists the highly achievable extra knock-out matches will bring welcome bonus revenue, and then there is the prize money.

by Nematode Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:23 pm

by TJ Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:35 pm

I agree Nematode. I saw some of the last game those fiendish frogs played. They looked like they could actually play. Dashed unsporting of them. I fear a kicking.

by **George Carlin** Wed 15 Oct 2014, 7:01 am

Nematode wrote:

by **RDW** Wed 15 Oct 2014, 8:38 am

Interview with Ben Chalmers (Craig's son) who plays for UBB academy. He suggests they will be rotating a lot of players, but they will still have a monstrous pack and danger men out wide.

HE MAY be mining a rich seam of votes on an anti-immigration package but Ukip leader Nigel Farage would get short shrift in the international world of French rugby, where more than 40 per cent of all players in the top 14 are foreign imports.

The Scots have benefited as much as anyone else. Only last season, Scotland U20 stand-off Tommy Allan started with Perpignan and ended it with Italy. Now another young Scottish stand-off who was unwanted at home has popped up at Bordeaux-Begles, the club Edinburgh must play in Friday night’s Challenge Cup opener.

The second son of Scotland great Craig, Ben Chalmers not only plays in his dad’s old position but he looks a little like the Grand Slam No 10 too. Ben also exudes much of his dad’s old confidence, too, which is nice to see. After turning out for Scotland in the junior World Championships held in New Zealand last summer, how come he washed up in the wine capital of the world?

“Well, I wasn’t offered anything [a deal] by either Edinburgh or Glasgow,” says Chalmers by way of explanation. “I got approached by an agent after one of the matches in New Zealand and I signed for Bordeaux three days later. I have always wanted to play professional rugby so it wasn’t the most difficult decision of my life.

“I think I am the only guy from the UK at the club, oh, except for [former England flanker] Joe Worsley, who is defence coach. Rafa Ibanez [the one-time French hooker and captain] is the manager-head coach. I have spoken quite a lot with Joe just about how best to get on here, how to make my life easier, that kind of stuff. There are quite a lot of English speakers, which is good for me, although the French are really nice.

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“I play in the Espoirs, which is an U23 team, but guys still drop down from the first team and play for us regardless of age. It is kind of a mixture of an age grade side and an A-team. We have had quite a few boys play up for the senior side, including Baptiste Serin, the France U20 scrum-half I played against last season. The standard of rugby is really high, with all the top teams in the [Espoirs] league. We travel to Montpellier soon.”

You have to admit it makes a change from the Borders’ circuit. It was tough at first being dropped into a brand new environment in a foreign country miles from friends and family but, since the only other option was none too appealing, the young Scot is keeping his head held high and Bordeaux does have its benefits.

The day we speak he reckons the temperature is around 25 degrees Celsius and, while that may mean extra layers for some of the locals, Chalmers was wandering around town in nothing more than a T-shirt, shorts and flip-flops. The temperature is not the only difference that the young Scot has had to adjust to. When the players arrive in the morning for the first training session of the day, everyone shakes hand, just once. It’s a cultural thing and probably a good one too.

“There are also a few kisses flying around,” says Chalmers with obvious amusement. “It is mainly between the French guys in the squad but sometimes they catch you unawares and ambush you.

“French clubs play very well at home,” replies the fly-half says when asked how Bordeaux stuck 51 points on Clermont in a recent match. With that in mind, the club’s narrow loss when scoring the only try of the match in Toulon was possibly the greater feat.

“We will be something close to our 30,000 capacity for every home match,” Chalmers warns Edinburgh about what they can expect this Friday. “It’s mental. I know the team that is playing [on Friday] because I have been training against them all week but it’s difficult to say how strong it is because the French always rotate their teams because it is such a long domestic season. I’ll just say that there are a few guys missing.

“The pack is huge, they are really big boys, but the danger man is Metui Talebula, the Fijian winger who is good as anything. He’s a Fijian and you know what they are like. Look out for Matt Clarkin too, the Kiwi breakaway and the club captain. He’s a good leader and a good player.”

One last question: who will win on Friday evening?

“Bordeaux,” the response comes without a moment’s hesitation. And if he’s right, at least one Scot will be sporting a broad smile at the final whistle.

by whocares Wed 15 Oct 2014, 8:48 am

The only comment I would add to the above is that they will play in their old Begles ground (less than 10k capacity) rather than in bordeaux municipal stadium. Also kissing doesnt involve any tongue Wink

by funnyExiledScot Wed 15 Oct 2014, 9:21 am

Well they have a Fijian on the wing and a Kiwi who isn't Mike Coman on the flank. We're finished.

by **George Carlin** Wed 15 Oct 2014, 11:25 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Well they have a Fijian on the wing and a Kiwi who isn't Mike Coman on the flank. We're finished.

Uncle Dougie turned down an offer from Solomons to take the 8 shirt for this match.

He refused as it would mean mixing with foreigners but also because he didn't want to make Mike Coman look bad.

by PenfroPete Wed 15 Oct 2014, 1:02 pm

OFFICIALS :-
Referee: Neil Hennessy (Wales)
Assistant referees: Chris Williams (Wales), Martyn Lewis (Wales)
Timekeeper: Gilles Cogne (France)
Assessor: Eric Darriere (France)

by whocares Wed 15 Oct 2014, 1:37 pm

no TMO which probably means not on TV at all?

by des Wed 15 Oct 2014, 1:45 pm

I'm genuinely terrified. It's one of the most on form sides in Europe against one of the most off form. Although maybe you could say that Edinburgh's off form is actually just their form.

My only positive thoughts are that even though we've been mauled a couple of times we've seemed reasonably competitive in both those games until the last quarter. Maybe it's just a conditioning thing?

by des Wed 15 Oct 2014, 1:46 pm

Maybe we could fly an antagonistic drone into the stadium and have the match abandoned?

by PenfroPete Wed 15 Oct 2014, 1:48 pm

whocares wrote:no TMO which probably means not on TV at all?

I keep this regularly updated

https://www.606v2.com/t6249-penfro-s-live-tv-guide-updated-wednesday-15-10-2014-1320

Just put details in for Thursday night. The main update for the week is usually Friday lunchtime. I can confirm though that Bordeaux-Begles v Edinburgh is not on TV

by funnyExiledScot Wed 15 Oct 2014, 1:51 pm

des wrote:Maybe we could fly an antagonistic drone into the stadium and have the match abandoned?

You thinking of Schizoid?

by Hound of Harrow Wed 15 Oct 2014, 1:59 pm

whocares wrote:The only comment I would add to the above is that they will play in their old Begles ground (less than 10k capacity) rather than in bordeaux municipal stadium. Also kissing doesnt involve any tongue

It's a shame the game isn't being played at Stade Chaban-Delmas; a wonderful old art deco style construction. I believe, from memory, that it was rebuilt for a FIFA World Cup in 1938 but it never took place owing to the situation in Europe.

There is a deep moat surrounding the pitch, and we jokingly asked a couple of UBB fans of they put crocodiles in it. "Yes." Came the reply, "But only for the football fans!"
Smile

There was a lot of other fun banter during the Wasps game there 3-4 seasons ago. It's a really nice city to visit, and the rugby fans are good fun.

Oh - the band will keep you entertained too.

thumbsup

by **RDW** Wed 15 Oct 2014, 2:08 pm

Sounds like a proper rugby club with a great set-up and great local identity - very jealous!

by des Wed 15 Oct 2014, 2:37 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
You thinking of Schizoid?

That would most definitely do.
I have a slight suspicion that he wouldn't be willing to do anything that might in any way help Edinburgh though. Maybe we could drug his milk Mr. T style?

by **George Carlin** Wed 15 Oct 2014, 2:40 pm

des wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
You thinking of Schizoid?
That would most definitely do.
I have a slight suspicion that he wouldn't be willing to do anything that might in any way help Edinburgh though. Maybe we could drug his milk Mr. T style?

I pity the fool.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 15 Oct 2014, 2:44 pm

des wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
You thinking of Schizoid?
That would most definitely do.
I have a slight suspicion that he wouldn't be willing to do anything that might in any way help Edinburgh though. Maybe we could drug his milk Mr. T style?

Just tell him that he'll be participating as the star draw at a"45", "Hope over Fear" or "Confused About Democracy" rally, or whatever they are calling themselves now.

by whocares Wed 15 Oct 2014, 2:58 pm

yes Hound, nice and pretty central Stadium. saw many games of football there when I was a kid /younger including Scotland-norway in the worldcup Smile

(wasnt much used for rugby in those days). also known to have one the longest journey from the cloakroom to the pitch in Europe (120m tunnel!). I believe the moat is where used to be the old cycling track. good news is with footbal moving to a new stadium from 2016 onwards, rugby could have full acess to it.

RDW : this club is in fact pretty new as it's the merger of 2 small clubs i.e. CABBG (begles who is in the suburbs) who were french champions in the early 1990s and less known and more central SBUC. I think both clubs still exist at young and amateur level but the pro structure is shared as both clubs would have not survived at this level. they dont have a rich owner so has to find as many local sponsorships to get a decent budget. What I like is that they manage to progress slowly but surely season after season, the coaching team is good and they had been clever when importing new blood (unknown players from amateurs clubs in the area or young guys from the SH) and specially at developping them : Lopez was unknown and is now maybe one the best french 10, Lonca was the same and has similar potential. Even FHs likes Bernard and Beauxis who were only renowned for their boot are now good runners and attack the line often. The only real internationals are guys like Latbeula (ex fidjian 7s) and their samona hooker Avei so they dont have to worry about missing too many players as well. Their backrow is very mobile and they have a top line out. their tight 5 used to be their weakness but has improved and also their defense thanks to Joe. They thrive on quick ball and their 9s (specially Lesgourgues) can run fast as well but if you shut them down at the breakdown (by committing loads of players) they will struggle.

by Nematode Wed 15 Oct 2014, 3:17 pm

Don't expect the scrums to be well reffed:

by whocares Thu 16 Oct 2014, 9:18 am

UBB matchday 23 :

forwards

Laurent DELBOULBES - Sébastien TAOFIFENUA - Benat AUZQUI - Clément MAYNADIER - Benjamin SA - Patrick TOETU - Berend BOTHA - Jean-Blaise LESPINASSE - Adam JAULHAC - Marco TAULEIGNE - Matt GRAHAM - Bertrand GUIRY - Taïasina TUIFUA

backs

Baptiste SERIN - Yann LESGOURGUES - Pierre BERNARD - Lionel BEAUXIS - Lucas BLANC - Thibault LACROIX - Félix LE BOURHIS - Charles BROUSSE - Romain LONCA - Darly DOMVO

in bold are players that had some game time in the last 2 games. a few key players missing specially in the forwards (basically the ones involved in both games) : Avei (hooker), Poux (prop) , Marais (lock) , Madaule, Clarkin and Chalmers (BR), Connor and Talebula (wing).

3 players are from U21 sqaud ("espoirs") : Lespinasse, Tauleigne, Blanc

by funnyExiledScot Thu 16 Oct 2014, 9:22 am

Only one player I'm familiar with and that's Beauxis, who can kick the ball a country mile.

by whocares Thu 16 Oct 2014, 9:38 am

watch out for the scrumhalf as well, both Serin (ex France U21 current 6N champion) and lesgourgues (ex Biarritz) are very quick. with this experimental backrow am not sure they will have the right platform though.

by **RDW** Thu 16 Oct 2014, 9:57 am

Promising to see they've rotated quite a lot, but I suspect the confidence in the squad will be so high that the people coming in will be desperate to put in a shift.

It's a shame we have started with the toughest team in the group away - it would have been good to get a confidence boosting win over London Welsh at home or something like that.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 16 Oct 2014, 12:27 pm

I think this could be a bit of a cuffing. Our defence has more leaks than the Iranian Navy and these guys like red hot when attacking.

I'll consider it a success to stay within a converted try.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 16 Oct 2014, 1:36 pm

Edinburgh Rugby team v Bordeaux-Begles, Stade Andre-Moga, Friday 17 October

15 Greig Tonks
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser
10 Phil Burleigh
9 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 Willem Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Grant Gilchrist
6 Tomas Leonardi
7 Hamish Watson
8 Mike Coman (c)

Substitutes
16 James Hilterbrand
17 Allan Dell
18 John Andress
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Roddy Grant
21 Sean Kennedy
22 Tom Heathcote
23 Nick McLennan

by funnyExiledScot Thu 16 Oct 2014, 1:37 pm

I like everything about the side apart from the 10/12 decision, and once again we have NSQ players at 10, 12 and 13.

I guess this is first choice from Solomons, so he's certainly taking this seriously.

by **RDW** Thu 16 Oct 2014, 1:38 pm

Well he's certainly going for it!

Pleased to see Sam H-C at 9, not much else changed apart from Nel back in.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 16 Oct 2014, 1:40 pm

Jack Cuthbert appears to have rapidly fallen from grace!

by EWT Spoons Thu 16 Oct 2014, 1:42 pm

Disappointed with the 10 and 12, and would prefer Tonks at 10, so someone else (Cuthbert) at 15.

I would say it's a strong team but, well it's not really is it.

by **George Carlin** Thu 16 Oct 2014, 1:47 pm

The team is fine if you like a big, fat cup of 'Meh'.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 16 Oct 2014, 1:57 pm

George Carlin wrote:The team is fine if you like a big, fat cup of 'Meh'.

That just kind of sums up Edinburgh at the moment.

by whocares Thu 16 Oct 2014, 2:01 pm

Phil Burleigh : where does he come from?

UBB 23 named as well (from 15 to 1):

Domvo ; Brousse, Le Bourhis, Lacroix, Blanc ; (o) Beauxis, (m) Serin (cap) ; Guiry, Tuifua, Graham ; Jaulhac, Botha ; Sa, Auzqui, Delboulbes.

subs : Maynadier, Taofifénua, Toetu, Tauleigne, Lespinasse, Lesgourgues, Bernard, Lonca.

quite some experimental front and back rows. still with experienced players

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