England vs New Zealand 8th November

Thought we might as well have a thread as we'll have the team announcements soon.

I see Myler is out of contention with a mild hamstring strain. Not serious enough to warrant a call-up for Cipriani or Burns, though. Attwood's wife is due to give birth any day, so that clouds the picture a little on his availability.

Hansen is apparently considering Carter and SBW for Twickenham, injury permitting.

England team to play New Zealand

M Brown (Harlequins); S Rokoduguni (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), K Eastmond (Bath), J May (Gloucester) ; O Farrell (Saracens) , D Care (Harlequins); J Marler (Harlequins), D Hartley (Northampton), D Wilson (Bath), D Attwood (Bath), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Mullan (Wasps), K Brookes (Newcastle), G Kruis (Saracens), B Morgan (Gloucester), B Youngs (Leicester), G Ford (Bath), A Watson (Bath).

All Blacks (test caps in brackets)

15. Israel Dagg (45)
14. Ben Smith (35)
13. Conrad Smith (83)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (20)
11. Julian Savea (30)
10. Aaron Cruden (36)
9. Aaron Smith (36)
8. Kieran Read (70)
7. Richie McCaw (c) (134)
6. Jerome Kaino (54)
5. Sam Whitelock (60)
4. Brodie Retallick 34)
3. Owen Franks (65)
2. Dane Coles (24)
1. Wyatt Crockett (33)

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (121)
17. Ben Franks (39)
18. Charlie Faumuina (24)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (5)
20. Liam Messam (37)
21. TJ Perenara (8)
22. Beauden Barrett (26)
23. Ryan Crotty (10)

Carter should be bench for England, Cruden to start. I doubt Hansen would start DC at 10 and SBW at 12, the sum total of test rugby for the two for the year less than 80 mins between them- versus the Eagles...madness. Especially with SBW pulling up.

I'm fully expecting DC to end the tour injured anyway.

Backs I'd have A Smith, Cruden, SBW (though I think he'll pick Crotty due to familiarity with AB patterns and SBW's pulling up, even though he'll be ok), C Smith, Dagg at FB and Savea/ Ben Smith on the wings.

hope he starts Carter. legendary player, but looked very rusty against the Eagles, and if he does start then maybe England's chances move from 5% to 10%.

At least Hansen is typically inert, full of praise and giving nothing away as usual...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11352543

Debunking the myth of Twickers again high on the agenda.

Nice slow start to the week. Should gain momentum as the butterflies start kicking in. Glad England are first up. They'll be fresh but new (or old) combinations are always hard to get going). AB's are a bit rusty there as well with all the disruptions and injuries so makes for an interesting one.

What's the "myth of Twickers"? Is it where Jesus pitched his tent during the trip that inspired the words for Jerusalem?

HammerofThunor wrote:What's the "myth of Twickers"? Is it where Jesus pitched his tent during the trip that inspired the words for Jerusalem?

I believe a sweet chariot may also have been seen at one point, coming for to carry me home.

Cleary who normally has the calling of the England team has the following :

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Attwood (baby dependent)
5. Lawes
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. B. Vunipola
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Eastmond
13. Barritt
14. Rokoduguni
15. Brown

Major surprise in there for me is that May is preferred over Yarde...!

Poorfour wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:What's the "myth of Twickers"? Is it where Jesus pitched his tent during the trip that inspired the words for Jerusalem?

I believe a sweet chariot may also have been seen at one point, coming for to carry me home.

Well I have needed carrying home a few times from Twickers in my more youthful days; difficult getting a chariot around the South Circular though

Wydnej wrote:Cleary who normally has the calling of the England team has the following :

1. Marler
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Attwood (baby dependent)
5. Lawes
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. B. Vunipola
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Eastmond
13. Barritt
14. Rokoduguni
15. Brown

Major surprise in there for me is that May is preferred over Yarde...!

Yarde cqarrying a knock and not on top form?

In this article Cleary has Hartley not Webber

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11206514/England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-puts-plans-for-New-Zealand-Test-on-hold-for-father-to-be-Dave-Attwood.html

Sorry LT you're right don't know why I put Webber in, that's the article I was referencing anyways.

Have heard from an unconfirmed source that Yarde turned his ankle this week, not major but sufficient to keep him out of the squad.

Poorfour wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:What's the "myth of Twickers"? Is it where Jesus pitched his tent during the trip that inspired the words for Jerusalem?

I believe a sweet chariot may also have been seen at one point, coming for to carry me home.

His uncle Joseph of Arimathea took him there to see his first international.

Attwood potentially out too? Congratulations to him, but you couldn't make it up could you? How many locks down would that be? Lawes and Kitchener or Lawes and Kruis?

I'm waiting to hear how Lawes has injured himself running to get the newspaper so he can read all about England's injury crisis!!! Agggh!

Launchbury, Parling, Attwood and Slater (in that arguable order).

I'd go for Lawes and Kruis as they had been in the squad together longer.

LondonTiger wrote:

Wydnej wrote:Cleary who normally has the calling of the England team has the following :

1. Marler
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Attwood (baby dependent)
5. Lawes
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. B. Vunipola
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Eastmond
13. Barritt
14. Rokoduguni
15. Brown

Major surprise in there for me is that May is preferred over Yarde...!

Yarde cqarrying a knock and not on top form?

In this article Cleary has Hartley not Webber

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11206514/England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-puts-plans-for-New-Zealand-Test-on-hold-for-father-to-be-Dave-Attwood.html

yarde has not produced his best for for quins so far this season, whereas it seems like May is on fire. again, bomber going very much on form, which i have no problem with.

But May always seems brilliant with Glous but hasn't yet produced for England.

Welly wrote:But May always seems brilliant with Glous but hasn't yet produced for England.

But one of these days hes going to score an international try that is out of this world. One of these days....

lostinwales wrote:

Welly wrote:But May always seems brilliant with Glous but hasn't yet produced for England.

But one of these days hes going to score an international try that is out of this world. One of these days....

I'd be happy with him just running in the direction of the try line tbh

yes I think that will happen one day, just a favourable bounce, bit of space.....
If Bomber is still with him by then.

Barritt at 13 really? Burrell not over his injury yet I take it, has there been any news on that?

May (currently) makes complete sense. If he has learned from last year (and that is huge)... if he performs anywhere near his potential it could be good times. I think Yarde is potentially (that word again) a very good international wing, but if he is off form and possibly injured there is no reason to start him.

I think my biggest doubt out of that list is Farrell, for exactly the same reasons.

In May's defence, he showed signs in the first NZ test that he's learnt to run straight. He just wasn't given a proper run of games over the summer to show it. Personally, I reckon he's learnt a lot. 

Putting his crabbing runs aside, he did have some lovely runs in the 6N.

Well just a few days to go.

It's almost time for the Telegraph articles on how the Haka should be banned, the Guardian article on how Mccaw needs to be penalised more, the Times article on what thugs the all blacks are and the BBC article on the time England won the World Cup.

Just saying.

for an american you are very knowledgeable about english coverage of australian provincial tours

Are the ABs playing England this week? Forgot all about it. Was too busy reading articles about the Chicago game still. What an occasion huh?

ebop wrote:Are the ABs playing England this week? Forgot all about it. Was too busy reading articles about the Chicago game still. What an occasion huh?

Yep, back to the spiritual home of rugby ebop...can't wait...

quinsforever wrote:

for an american you are very knowledgeable about english coverage of australian provincial tours

Yeah, pumped for it alright Tman! Was being tongue in cheek as it's been a bit of a slow burn till today. Looks like the NZ media have finally woken up and now it's all about this test now. I read Hanson has extra security on hotel rooms this time to stop untrustworthy local media from breaking and entering into their rooms. Who'd have thought you'd need to do that, crazy stuff. Crudes and SBW to start I reckon.

NZ media, I thought we were playing Australia, well according to the yanks we are. The Aussies just thrashed them.

What English team is more injury ravaged, the June team or the November team? There was the long season excuse in June. What's the reason this time?

Just me that can see Farrell starting at 10 being a massive mood killer??

He looked poooooor for Sarries and will his form have changed that much in two weeks?

ebop wrote:What English team is more injury ravaged, the June team or the November team? There was the long season excuse in June. What's the reason this time?

Both are equally injury ravaged, that's why we never get the win... That and dodgy refs, McCaw cheating, thuggishness and you bringing in most of the Pacific Islands to play for you

I don't want Farrell starting because I think he's still an injury risk. If he has to go off early for Ford, then we've got no established goal kicking cover should he start spraying them wide.

I'm pleased to see Watson given a chance because playing Brown at full back means you need proper cover for wing, which Goode doesn't offer. Goode, though, is a reasonable place kicker.

Ha, and that we play under the Australian banner to trick teams. Seriously though, this is probably the biggest game of the year for us. The ABs will be fizzing at the bung for this one.

Is it LV cup weekend or Premiership? If LV I might get sky to watch the game. If it's premiership I'll probably watch that on BT instead and try and catch the highlights.

ebop wrote:What English team is more injury ravaged, the June team or the November team? There was the long season excuse in June. What's the reason this time?

June team wasn't THAT injury ravaged. They were missing players because the NZRU think that 31st May is in June.

It was June in NZ Hammer, you know that

I think the NZRU did England rugby a favour for not shifting the date that the IRB set. It highlighted how the English domestic season was too long. And long domestic seasons cause fatigue and injury to players so hopefully people took note of the good deed. If the T1 date was shifted, who knows what the premiership bosses would have tried next time to make the season even longer.

31st May is June in NZ? Good to know.

England's domestic season is the same length as the Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians. The season started a week later for the Lions (which is why all the finals were on the same date). That's what should be scrapped. Just a money maker for the SH.

You've heard of time zones right? And before you say Saturday, I get it. Scrap the lions, no problem, no one cares about the lions right? A bloated domestic competition that is forever encroaching on the international game is way more important.

there are more injuries to first choice players in saturday's match than in June. although we were missing more 1st choice players for that first test in June due to the AP playoffs, and then as it turned out, the ones who arrived late, several of them looking to be carrying injuries and should probably never have travelled at all..farrell, care principally.

but to be honest we have always had lots of players absent to injury so its not really that different.

however, off the top of my head we are missing
corbiseiro
cole
lawes
launchbury
burrell
tuilagi
brown

all of whome would probably be first choice starters.

but none of them are significantly better than their replacements (apart from tuilagi when he is on form) so i dont think anyone in England will be using injury lists as an excuse.

Farrell is a huge concern. He hasn't recovered since his injury at the end of the last season and has been in poor form.

On the other hand...Eastmond and Barritt I like. I just worry that if Farrell is picked a lot of creative pressure is put on Eastmond.

I cant see Ford starting but if he does Barritt and Eastmond will switch on attack and defence.

I also think May has a HUGE opportunity to really make a play for that wing shirt this AI. He needs to choose intelligently when to go on his adventurous mazy runs and when to go straight and back his pace.

its going to be a great game. wish i was there. hard to see england getting a win. if farrell starts we are screwed. bomber is a big fan of picking players on the basis of form...barritt, eastmond, may, etc. if he picks farrell then i think there is a strong argument to be made that andy farrell needs to be fired from the backs coach role for england. because farrell is so not the form player. and 10 is kind of an important position.

quinsforever wrote:there are more injuries to first choice players in saturday's match than in June. although we were missing more 1st choice players for that first test in June due to the AP playoffs, and then as it turned out, the ones who arrived late, several of them looking to be carrying injuries and should probably never have travelled at all..farrell, care principally.

but to be honest we have always had lots of players absent to injury so its not really that different.

however, off the top of my head we are missing
corbiseiro
cole
lawes
launchbury
burrell
tuilagi
brown

all of whome would probably be first choice starters.

but none of them are significantly better than their replacements (apart from tuilagi when he is on form) so i dont think anyone in England will be using injury lists as an excuse.

What, Lawes is out as well?

quinsforever wrote:there are more injuries to first choice players in saturday's match than in June. although we were missing more 1st choice players for that first test in June due to the AP playoffs, and then as it turned out, the ones who arrived late, several of them looking to be carrying injuries and should probably never have travelled at all..farrell, care principally.

but to be honest we have always had lots of players absent to injury so its not really that different.

however, off the top of my head we are missing
corbiseiro
cole
lawes
launchbury
burrell
tuilagi
brown

all of whome would probably be first choice starters.

but none of them are significantly better than their replacements (apart from tuilagi when he is on form) so i dont think anyone in England will be using injury lists as an excuse.

Just noticed, Brown as well. Where is this info coming from?

No Lawes is not out...Attwood possibly as his missus is due with their baby.

Brown is not out either.

my bad. hadnt seen the squad release thing. i think brown is not fully fit so thought he might get sent back instead of goode.

dont know where i got Lawes idea from!

farrell. he is definitely not 100%. and he is definitely rusty and off the pace. however, he is too selfish and insecure to do the right thing and let someone else start. i like him as a player when he's 100%. hard, prickly, bit limited distributionally, great kicking from hand most days. irritates me when i see him force his dad to get him the starting spot and we all suffer the consequences.

My thoughts exactly Geordie.

A true Geordie, or just from the North East?

quinsforever wrote:...he is too selfish and insecure to do the right thing and let someone else start...

How many international players do you know who pull out of a squad when they have passed all the fitness tests?

It's up to the coach to make selection decisions.

Do you honestly think Farrell forces his dad to pick him quins. He is a rather good player you know!

quinsforever wrote:

for an american you are very knowledgeable about english coverage of australian provincial tours

Spookily so. 

Anyway

Another great match coming up. World Champs vs RWC hosts. Of all the matches this autumn, this is the one I'm most looking forward to. Pain and a heavy loss are an unfortunate possibility for England. And that's without thinking about the injury crisis too. Toby Flood, even, would have added a secure option to back up Ford should Farrell be less than match fit and in top form, as I fear. Are we ready for this huge challenge? The All Blacks are ruthless at taking opportunities especially against rusty partnerships. Both sides are capable of top class rugby but we lack the consistency that makes New Zealand so great.  Grey skies and rain will make it an even tougher one for our wingers too. Ghost of the last test in New Zealand to put to bed as well.

Should be a good one