Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th

George Carlin wrote:Best match thread and  analysis ever.  

This is very much a losable game, so we have to keep our feet on the floor and prepare really well.

"Over the last few years Scotland have beaten South Africa and Australia and I think it was for that same reason, that they relaxed and let Scotland in the game.

"We know if you relax for long enough they will grow an extra arm and a leg and stay in the game."

Hansen noted Scotland's highly impressive 41-33 win over Argentina as evidence of the threat they pose.

"When you think about who the director of coaching here is, [Australian] Scott Johnson, he's into playing fifteen man rugby, as is [head coach] Vern [Cotter]. You have two guys who want to play an expansive game and they feel they have a squad that suits that.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Great job Glove!

As for the team, same a last week, but Cusiter, Swinson and Low on the bench - Hamilton and Strokosh are absolute lumbering dinosaurs in comparison to the ABs.

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Great job Glove!

As for the team, same a last week, but Cusiter, Swinson and Low on the bench - Hamilton and Strokosh are absolute lumbering dinosaurs in comparison to the ABs.

Missed out Dents and Ryan Grant! Agree about Cus and Swinson though. I am afraid I am not convinced about Geoff Cross either, an international prop really aught to be able to hold down a place at L. I hoped a move would drive him onwards as it has done for Laidlaw but it does not seem to have happened yet. I do accept though that he is currently the next best alternative we have, though that is not the best basis for gaining international caps!

GLove39 wrote:Cheers chaps, but we'll have to organize a whip round for GC, now he's been made redundant!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotsman this morning suggesting VC might shake up the backrow a bit, with Cowan mentioned as being at risk of being dropped. Don't see why, because

A) I thought Cowan played well - plenty work rate anyway

B) who would replace him? The thought of Fusaro going up against the the ABs backrow is frightening.  Barclay yes, but he's not in the squad! Absolutely no way would I want Strokosh at 7 - he's really not suited to this game.

In the aftermath of Scotland's 41-31 victory over Argentina, head coach Vern Cotter galloped on to the Murrayfield pitch and embraced his players one by one, crying tears of joy as he faced the television cameras while declaring this to be one of the most exhilarating days of his life and one of the most significant in the history of Scottish rugby.

He announced that Scotland were now a world power and that everybody, All Blacks included, had better watch out.

Then he floated away, singing 'Another One Bites The Dust' as he went.

OK, fair enough. He did none of those things. In the range of public emotion he goes all the way from A to B. Stern Vern.

You could have a slideshow of Cotter headshots, from happy to sad, to angry to content and it would take a team of forensic scientists to tell the difference.
It's not that he is without sentiment, it's just that he places a protective wall around himself when talking about his team and nobody is getting through it. In his rugby world, he's less Freddie Mercury and more Bob Dylan - specifically that line from his song 'Up To Me': "In 14 months I've only smiled once and I didn't do it consciously".

Cotter is as far removed from Scott Johnson, his predecessor, as it is possible to be. Johnson was all one-liners and poor performances.

The New Zealander, on the other hand, lets his team do the talking for him. And for an hour against Argentina they were as fluent as a Scottish team has been against a high-level opponent in the past 15 years.

There were shades of Jim Telfer's Five Nations Championship winners of 1999. It's only one match, and they still have an awfully long way to go, but some of the ambition, execution and high-tempo stuff was redolent of the last time Scotland were a relevant force in northern hemisphere rugby.

Against Argentina, there were new partnerships in the midfield, at half-back, in the second row and the back row. Mark Bennett made his Test match debut. Finn Russell, Adam Ashe and Blair Cowan made their Murrayfield debuts. Jonny Gray had his first start at Murrayfield. The back row had a combined total of 11 caps.

The whole thing had a new air about it. A freshness.

There were moments that made you think that something different is on its way. Falling behind early (nothing new) only to bounce back immediately (something very new).

The patience and accuracy in the build-up to Richie Gray's score was not typical of Scotland teams. The fact that it was a second-row on the end of the move with a loose-head prop outside him on the wing calling for a pass was evidence of Cotter's mantra of dynamism in attack.

It's fair to say that Argentina played poorly, but this is a good Argentina side none the less, a side that had, in their previous Test, come from 14-0 behind to beat the Wallabies.

In the white heat of the Rugby Championship, they lost to South Africa, the second best team in the world, by two points and seven points. They came to Murrayfield with 10 of the side that downed Australia. They were, perhaps, three players short of full strength, but were deemed by many as favourites - and rightly so.

And yet, for the critical hour, they were blown away.

What was striking about Scotland was their desire to play, their determination to get on the ball and make things happen. Too often, Scotland have been passive.

A new team with no baggage, they demonstrated a speed of thought and a coolness in the opposition 22 that Argentina could not live with, whether it was the composure that brought Jonny Gray his try or the cleverness and ruthlessness of Greig Laidlaw creating the third score for Sean Maitland.
What a joy it was to see Laidlaw controlling and sniping. This was the captain at his best. His rugby intelligence was writ large over this Test.

And there was an element of role-reversal that made you smile. The Pumas came out with intent at the start of the second half. They began putting the phases together, working it left and right but going nowhere. In the 45th minute they were still at it. They were on phase 14 at that point.

Things broke down. Two minutes later, Laidlaw sliced them open at the side of a ruck and sent Stuart Hogg away in the corner.

It was the kind of kick to the solar plexus that the Scotland fans know all about. Normally, it is Scotland doing the grunt and their opponent applying the sucker-punch.

Of course, there were problems in that last quarter, including two yellow cards and 21 points conceded when Scotland were down to 14 men.

Rob Harley's yellow looked soft, the opposite of the man himself who, in the nicest sense, is an almighty pest of a rugby player, a destructive force who had a profound impact on the game until he exited.

Jim Hamilton's yellow was deserved and daft at the same time. His inability to control himself at the breakdown turned a landslide win into something that looked less convincing. A 10-point margin did Scotland no justice.

There will surely be few, if any, changes for New Zealand next week.
Bennett had little opportunity to attack but he was in the team on merit and deserves to stay. The other Murrayfield new boys ranged from solid to spectacular.

Russell revelled in it and it was a pulse-quickening moment to see a 22-year-old Scottish fly-half take to the battle with such confidence. Ashe and Jonny Gray were similarly impressive. Cowan was an effective open-side.

In his deadpan way, Cotter was pleased with what he saw, but was mindful of what's coming. The feelgood from Saturday could quickly turn into a horror show when the All Blacks bring their brand of rugby sadism to Murrayfield.
Survival is the main objective. Scottish teams in the recent past have failed to get to half-time in a semi-competitive state against New Zealand, never mind full-time.

There are reasons to believe that Cotter is on to something, but not reasons to be hysterical.

If, by full-time next Saturday, pride is intact then it's job done. They can move onwards to Tonga in Kilmarnock and, later, to the Six Nations not with the usual blind faith but with genuine hope that this young team is capable of putting Scotland back on the rugby map.

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotsman this morning suggesting VC might shake up the backrow a bit, with Cowan mentioned as being at risk of being dropped. Don't see why, because

A) I thought Cowan played well - plenty work rate anyway

B) who would replace him? The thought of Fusaro going up against the the ABs backrow is frightening.  Barclay yes, but he's not in the squad! Absolutely no way would I want Strokosh at 7 - he's really not suited to this game.

I read that as well and thought it was complete rubbish, what game was he watching, Cowan did play well as did the whole back row. I don't think there will be any changes for the starting back row or the team, they all played well enough to deserve another crack. The bench brought little impact and in fact caused our performance to drop off, that's where the changes need to be made.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Good article from Tom English on the BBC

In the aftermath of Scotland's 41-31 victory over Argentina, head coach Vern Cotter galloped on to the Murrayfield pitch and embraced his players one by one, crying tears of joy as he faced the television cameras while declaring this to be one of the most exhilarating days of his life and one of the most significant in the history of Scottish rugby.

He announced that Scotland were now a world power and that everybody, All Blacks included, had better watch out.

Then he floated away, singing 'Another One Bites The Dust' as he went.

OK, fair enough. He did none of those things. In the range of public emotion he goes all the way from A to B. Stern Vern.

You could have a slideshow of Cotter headshots, from happy to sad, to angry to content and it would take a team of forensic scientists to tell the difference.
It's not that he is without sentiment, it's just that he places a protective wall around himself when talking about his team and nobody is getting through it. In his rugby world, he's less Freddie Mercury and more Bob Dylan - specifically that line from his song 'Up To Me': "In 14 months I've only smiled once and I didn't do it consciously".

Cotter is as far removed from Scott Johnson, his predecessor, as it is possible to be. Johnson was all one-liners and poor performances.

The New Zealander, on the other hand, lets his team do the talking for him. And for an hour against Argentina they were as fluent as a Scottish team has been against a high-level opponent in the past 15 years.

There were shades of Jim Telfer's Five Nations Championship winners of 1999. It's only one match, and they still have an awfully long way to go, but some of the ambition, execution and high-tempo stuff was redolent of the last time Scotland were a relevant force in northern hemisphere rugby.

Against Argentina, there were new partnerships in the midfield, at half-back, in the second row and the back row. Mark Bennett made his Test match debut. Finn Russell, Adam Ashe and Blair Cowan made their Murrayfield debuts. Jonny Gray had his first start at Murrayfield. The back row had a combined total of 11 caps.

The whole thing had a new air about it. A freshness.

There were moments that made you think that something different is on its way. Falling behind early (nothing new) only to bounce back immediately (something very new).

The patience and accuracy in the build-up to Richie Gray's score was not typical of Scotland teams. The fact that it was a second-row on the end of the move with a loose-head prop outside him on the wing calling for a pass was evidence of Cotter's mantra of dynamism in attack.

It's fair to say that Argentina played poorly, but this is a good Argentina side none the less, a side that had, in their previous Test, come from 14-0 behind to beat the Wallabies.

In the white heat of the Rugby Championship, they lost to South Africa, the second best team in the world, by two points and seven points. They came to Murrayfield with 10 of the side that downed Australia. They were, perhaps, three players short of full strength, but were deemed by many as favourites - and rightly so.

And yet, for the critical hour, they were blown away.

What was striking about Scotland was their desire to play, their determination to get on the ball and make things happen. Too often, Scotland have been passive.

A new team with no baggage, they demonstrated a speed of thought and a coolness in the opposition 22 that Argentina could not live with, whether it was the composure that brought Jonny Gray his try or the cleverness and ruthlessness of Greig Laidlaw creating the third score for Sean Maitland.
What a joy it was to see Laidlaw controlling and sniping. This was the captain at his best. His rugby intelligence was writ large over this Test.

And there was an element of role-reversal that made you smile. The Pumas came out with intent at the start of the second half. They began putting the phases together, working it left and right but going nowhere. In the 45th minute they were still at it. They were on phase 14 at that point.

Things broke down. Two minutes later, Laidlaw sliced them open at the side of a ruck and sent Stuart Hogg away in the corner.

It was the kind of kick to the solar plexus that the Scotland fans know all about. Normally, it is Scotland doing the grunt and their opponent applying the sucker-punch.

Of course, there were problems in that last quarter, including two yellow cards and 21 points conceded when Scotland were down to 14 men.

Rob Harley's yellow looked soft, the opposite of the man himself who, in the nicest sense, is an almighty pest of a rugby player, a destructive force who had a profound impact on the game until he exited.

Jim Hamilton's yellow was deserved and daft at the same time. His inability to control himself at the breakdown turned a landslide win into something that looked less convincing. A 10-point margin did Scotland no justice.

There will surely be few, if any, changes for New Zealand next week.
Bennett had little opportunity to attack but he was in the team on merit and deserves to stay. The other Murrayfield new boys ranged from solid to spectacular.

Russell revelled in it and it was a pulse-quickening moment to see a 22-year-old Scottish fly-half take to the battle with such confidence. Ashe and Jonny Gray were similarly impressive. Cowan was an effective open-side.

In his deadpan way, Cotter was pleased with what he saw, but was mindful of what's coming. The feelgood from Saturday could quickly turn into a horror show when the All Blacks bring their brand of rugby sadism to Murrayfield.
Survival is the main objective. Scottish teams in the recent past have failed to get to half-time in a semi-competitive state against New Zealand, never mind full-time.

There are reasons to believe that Cotter is on to something, but not reasons to be hysterical.

If, by full-time next Saturday, pride is intact then it's job done. They can move onwards to Tonga in Kilmarnock and, later, to the Six Nations not with the usual blind faith but with genuine hope that this young team is capable of putting Scotland back on the rugby map.

George Carlin wrote:
I am genuinely happy for the team and it's right to enjoy the victory but it's this sort of hyperbole that makes me sigh gently.

This is for a number of reasons. Think how much further on we would be by now if SJ had just chosen specialists in their positions and picked on form. Commentators have banged on ad nauseum about how having a Glasgow core have given the team cohension. But Glasgow didn't suddenly become good overnight. They were pretty good last season as well and the same collective could have had another 5 or 6 games together by now. Just goes to prove (if ever it was needed) that whilst the players didn't mind Scott Johnson (probably quite liked him), they weren't energised by playing for him and obviously were constrained tactically in a way that was not effective.

I also want performances like the Argentina one to not be a big deal. We really want to shoot for what Ireland and England are doing right now. We need to give these young men time together and tell them that whatever the score, they will be a better team at the end.

Just ignore me. I'm having a bad day. There's just nothing sadder than wasted time.

George Carlin wrote:Don't get me wrong.

1. I like Vern. It's impossible not to like a man whose face moves as little as Vern's. I would not like to play poker against him or tell him that I was planning to keep his daughter out late on a school night.

2. If he genuinely has just told the players to play what's in front of them, then he's already the best coach we've had in 10 years.

3. If he's willing to start a very young side because they're good, then he's already the best selector we've had in 5 years.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

It's an extremely dangerous place to be, having expectations as a Scotland fan!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

It's an extremely dangerous place to be, having expectations as a Scotland fan!

Good thing we've got the ABs up next then....!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

It's an extremely dangerous place to be, having expectations as a Scotland fan!

Good thing we've got the ABs up next then....!

MacKnocked-on wrote:I've just read that piece by Morrison in the Scotsman about the team and Cowan in particular; saying he's not big enough etc and that he couldn't remember a single turnover he won during the game etc etc. Cowan is a good deal bigger than a lot of 7s and amongst being a general nuisance and working very hard he had one particularly good turnover in the Argentina 22 when he leaned in and stripped out the ball setting us up in an excellent attacking position. Sounds like Morrison just doesn't want to write anything good about the guy for whatever reason.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:I've just read that piece by Morrison in the Scotsman about the team and Cowan in particular; saying he's not big enough etc and that he couldn't remember a single turnover he won during the game etc etc. Cowan is a good deal bigger than a lot of 7s and amongst being a general nuisance and working very hard he had one particularly good turnover in the Argentina 22 when he leaned in and stripped out the ball setting us up in an excellent attacking position. Sounds like Morrison just doesn't want to write anything good about the guy for whatever reason.

It does seem like there's an agenda in play. If you were to pick on anyone for a negative contribution on Saturday it would surely be Jim Hamilton. You could also write about Scott Johnson, because the improvement under Cotter has been almost instant.

I thought Cowan was doing ok, and had a pretty busy afternoon. I don't think Strokosch made much impact at 7, and of the three I'd suggest that Ashe was the one I'd have substituted. Not that Ashe was bad, but he just looks green and a little underpowered. Hey ho, Kieran Read up next.

EST wrote:Well, there was a lot of good in the Argie performance, but enough mistakes to keep our feet on the floor.

I thought the Argies played very poorly, which surprised me.  In particular their backrow looked under powered.  This will undoubtedly not be the case against the AB's and because of this I would look to change things around a little. In an ideal world I would like to see Hogg (Ally) and Barclay start with Harley staying at six.  This is not to say that Ashe and Cowan didn't play well, but the current set up puts a huge amount of emphasis on Ashe making hard yards; against Kaino, McCaw and Read I think this might be a bridge too far just now.

Behind the scrum, I would stick with what we had on Saturday. I thought Russell was superb - I honestly can't remember a Scottish 10 who controlled a game with such confidence.  When Matt Scott (12) finally returns from injury we will have a genuinely exciting and dangerous group of midfielders to choose from.

All i'm hoping for on the weekend is a continuation of the style exhibited on the weekend.  If we play well, score a couple of tries and keep it as close as possible this can be a huge shot in the arm for this young team.

EWT Spoons wrote:

EST wrote:Well, there was a lot of good in the Argie performance, but enough mistakes to keep our feet on the floor.

I thought the Argies played very poorly, which surprised me.  In particular their backrow looked under powered.  This will undoubtedly not be the case against the AB's and because of this I would look to change things around a little. In an ideal world I would like to see Hogg (Ally) and Barclay start with Harley staying at six.  This is not to say that Ashe and Cowan didn't play well, but the current set up puts a huge amount of emphasis on Ashe making hard yards; against Kaino, McCaw and Read I think this might be a bridge too far just now.

Behind the scrum, I would stick with what we had on Saturday. I thought Russell was superb - I honestly can't remember a Scottish 10 who controlled a game with such confidence.  When Matt Scott (12) finally returns from injury we will have a genuinely exciting and dangerous group of midfielders to choose from.

All i'm hoping for on the weekend is a continuation of the style exhibited on the weekend.  If we play well, score a couple of tries and keep it as close as possible this can be a huge shot in the arm for this young team.

He thinks about 3 weeks time

RDW_Scotland wrote:If we're going for credit where credit is due, probably worth mentioning jonathan Humphries (our forwards coach) - our pack put in a very good performance so he probably deserves some credit!

Taylorman wrote:Looks like the Irish win over the boks with Schmidt, the scot win over Argie under Cotter is starting to make people nervous back here.
Expect a very solid looking back line with perhaps savea, piatau, fekitoa, sbw or crotty and carter back at 10.
Touch over nervousness to see which of Scotland or Ireland will be the first to knock us off. Interesting times.

George Carlin wrote:By the same token, surely it cannot be beyond the wit of journalists to be respectful of weaker teams. There are 102 teams in the IRB world rankings. Scotland are 8th.

I would like it very much if certain sections of the Kiwi press would hide their boredom at those irksome times where the mighty Blackness are required to condescend to play anyone who are not ranked in the top 5. I mean, sorry for the inconvenience and all that.

JonnyEdinburgh wrote:

George Carlin wrote:By the same token, surely it cannot be beyond the wit of journalists to be respectful of weaker teams. There are 102 teams in the IRB world rankings. Scotland are 8th.

I would like it very much if certain sections of the Kiwi press would hide their boredom at those irksome times where the mighty Blackness are required to condescend to play anyone who are not ranked in the top 5. I mean, sorry for the inconvenience and all that.

Absolutely, 100% perfect comment.  Time for a rant.
That same attitude is nurtured in this country as well though, and that is what hacks me off the most.  We need to get over this "little Scotland" way of thinking, worshipping the mention of the All Blacks.  Even on this forum we have plenty of "no chance" comments and the like, oh no we couldn't possibly in a billion years get close to these rugby gods.  Lets all offer to clean their boots and oil up their beautiful Thor-like abs.
What a load of cack!!!!  

In the last 15 years we have beaten every other top nation in the world at some point or another....Australia check....SA check......Argentina check.....England check.....Ireland check.....France check....Wales check.  And I would argue that most, if not all of those victories were pulled off with some combination of worse players, shoddy coaches, and less confidence than the squad we have today.
Glasgow are on fire right now in both Pro 12 and the HC - the same level that the best of England, Wales, Ireland and France measure themselves.  The smattering of Embra players and those playing outwith Scotland are in good form at the top domestic level too.  Our new coach seems to want to let them off the leash to play to their strengths.  Our backs can actually score some tries now too.  I reckon Hadden, Williams and Robinson would have given their right nut to have a finisher like Visser in the team - and he (rightly) can't get near the current teamsheet!

Especially given NZ may even rest players here, this is our best chance to get that first win for as long as I can remember.  The game is 15 against 15, all 30 off the people on the pitch will be human beings, and professional rugby players.  Saying we just hope to keep it respectable is defeatist before we have started.  Granted we are underdogs but the guys should be aiming for a win here, any defeat should be mourned as it would be against any other top nation.  As far as I'm concerned they can stick the hero worship where the sun don't shine, and I hope our players feel the same on Saturday.  Scotland by 5.