England v New Zealand, 2nd November

England have named their team for the match:

England: Furbank; Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman; M Smith, Spencer; Genge, George (capt), Stuart; Itoje, Martin; Cunningham-South, T Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Baxter, Cole, Isiekwe, B Curry, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford.

No huge surprises, and a lot of the changes have been trailed. It'll be interesting to see if Curry is back to his best, and whether Spencer goes well with Smith. Having Ford back in the squad should help with closing out the game - but the presence of Dombrandt makes me wonder if the plan is to keep Smith on the pitch for longer by moving him to 15 so that they can work off each other.

Could also see Earl at 12 in an emergency. Does make you wonder.

Some baffling choices there. Ben Curry, Dombrandt on bench but no Hill? Ford? Slade starts?
No Sleightholme in 23.

I guess we can expect a forward dominated game plan from England with the bench stacked with 6 forwards.  I am surprised at Ford's inclusion in view as his lack of fitness and lack of versatility.  But Borthwick seems to be going for England to get ahead in the first 60 minutes and Ford then coming on to close the game out. If Feyi-Waboso gets injured, then England have a serious lack of pace.

nlpnlp wrote:I guess we can expect a forward dominated game plan from England with the bench stacked with 6 forwards.  I am surprised at Ford's inclusion in view as his lack of fitness and lack of versatility.  But Borthwick seems to be going for England to get ahead in the first 60 minutes and Ford then coming on to close the game out. If Feyi-Waboso gets injured, then England have a serious lack of pace.

My worry is the lack of lock options if either Itoje or Martin go down. Dombrandt and/or CC-S are not exactly well-versed in the lock position. * EDIT IGNORE THAT - just spotted Isiekwe!

Presumably if Slade goes down, Freeman to 13, Ford to 10, Smith to 15 and Furbank to wing. Which I'll be honest does not instill me with much confidence... But if Manny gets injured, what happens then???

If everyone is fit and in form then I think it's a strong side. A nice balance of power, carrying and defensive power.

Is Slade fit? Is Stuart still a stop gap or improving?

Does the back three offer enough kicking ability? Or will Smith and Slade be dropping back to cover

Mr Bounce wrote:My worry is the lack of lock options if either Itoje or Martin go down. Dombrandt and/or CC-S are not exactly well-versed in the lock position. * EDIT IGNORE THAT - just spotted Isiekwe!

Presumably if Slade goes down, Freeman to 13, Ford to 10, Smith to 15 and Furbank to wing. Which I'll be honest does not instill me with much confidence... But if Manny gets injured, what happens then???

Dombrandt and CCS are both good lineout options (though Dombrandt is normally better used for the overthrow option), but Isiekwe is clearly the reserve lock.

If Manny goes down, I would guess that it's Ford on, Furbank to wing and Smith to fullback. It gives up a bit of high ball ability, but Smith brings a lot in attack from 15 and has stepped up his aggression in the tackle this season.

The bench is woeful. There's no impact there, once those players take the field we'll be in a mostly weaker position in terms of carrying ability.

Dombrandt has been injured most the season and ineffectual at international level. I have no idea how he's in the squad let alone the 23.

The prop combinations goes against what we normally like with one set piece prop and then one carrier. Instead we are likely to see Stuart targeted by NZ and Genge isn't the type of prop who's going to be able to cover for that (he's a good aggressive scrummager not sure he's got a Marler style lock it out and weather the storm shape in him).

We need to blow NZ away in the first half or it's going to look bad in the second half. Spencer at 9 might well cost us in that first half. He's looked a deer in headlights so far at international level.

On bench only Randall Baxter and Dan deserve to be there quite honestly. The rest meh at best.

mountain man wrote:On bench only Randall Baxter and Dan deserve to be there quite honestly. The rest meh at best.

Ford is still our best flyhalf but only when he's fit and in form. Currently he's neither and whilst he's been good at a) returning from injury in form and b) steering England to unexpected results from tough positions it's a reach to have him in there.

Similar with Cole. He's our best scrummaging tighthead by a distance and Davison's form has been poor this season (was better last season). Doesn't make much sense to pair him with Baxter though, there's no carrying impact there and more of a we're going to be holding on feeling.

Feels a bit like the pundits are more optimistic about England's chances than supporters, judging from online comments.

That might just be because England fans are more likely to post when they have concerns, than when they are confident. Also, the pundits might be swayed by having contact with the England camp, and getting caught up in their bullishness.

New Zealand: Jordan; Tele'a, Ioane, J Barrett, Clarke; B Barrett, Ratima; Williams, Taylor, Lomax, S Barrett (capt), Vaa'i, Sititi, Cane, Savea.

Replacements: Aumua, Tu'ungafasi, Tosi, Tuipulotu, Finau, Roigard, Lienart-Brown, McKenzie

Beaudy starts. His bench impact was savage during the summer. Their bench backs are still excellent though. ALB is a really useful tactical change at centre that they've utilised smartly for a long while. DMcK is electric. Roigard is very talented.

The front row depth that really hurt England over the summer is depleted. de Groot and Newell both absent. Taimati Williams is a freak athlete but probably better from the bench at this stage. Those ABs props do somewhat sum up the direction of travel for the position across rugby though. Williams (6'5" and 22 stone) and Tosi (6'4" and nearly 23 stone) are Uini Antonio sized props. Lomax (6'4" and 20 stone) and Tu'ungafasi (6'5" and 20 stone) are the little brothers in comparison!

As an England fan, I'd much rather face Caleb Clarke than Sevu Reece. Clarke is powerful and dangerous but outside of ball in hand his all round game can be dire at times. Hopefully England can target that a bit.

Dalton Papali'i and Luke Jacobsen both absent with injury. They've been good for NZ.

It remains a very good NZ side. England held the same side with all their props to two tight games, that they led at key times, away from home though. Similar absentees for England compared to that tour too. Chessum missing both times. We had more injury issues at LH last time with Genge missing the tour and Marler then missing T2. Mitchell was available though. Which is absolutely vital. He's England's best 9 by a distance now.

I'd hope for a tight game that could go either way.

king_carlos wrote:...The front row depth that really hurt England over the summer is depleted. de Groot and Newell both absent....

Roverston says de Groot wasn't considered because he breached team protocols.

All Blacks loosehead prop Ethan de Groot has paid a heavy price for breaching team protocols.

De Groot has been dumped from the All Blacks team to play England in London on Sunday morning (NZT), with coach Scott Robertson confirming his omission had nothing to do with his on-field performances.

"Ethan didn't meet internal standards,'' Robertson said.

When asked for more details by a reporter at the press conference, Robertson offered: “Just the internal standards. In general he didn’t meet them, so he’s not available for selection this week.’’

While the exact details of what de Groot has done to deserve being left out of the 23-man team to play at Twickenham remain unclear, the All Blacks have confirmed it won’t prevent him being selected for the match against Ireland in Dublin next weekend.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360471723/all-blacks-prop-ethan-de-groot-dumped-breaching-team-standards

Ben Youngs and Anthony Watson preview the match

https://open.spotify.com/episode/63Z2yjY9Gxv8qRe2a1JkSM?si=0a58cb6729724b3a

Watson said a variable which isn't getting much attention is the way Autumn internationals feel very different to Six Nation matches, and quite a few England players have never experienced them (It's Borthwick's first series as coach).

Below, Ben Youngs on his own, with a shorter summary

nlpnlp wrote:I guess we can expect a forward dominated game plan from England with the bench stacked with 6 forwards.  I am surprised at Ford's inclusion in view as his lack of fitness and lack of versatility.  But Borthwick seems to be going for England to get ahead in the first 60 minutes and Ford then coming on to close the game out. If Feyi-Waboso gets injured, then England have a serious lack of pace.

Looking back over the comments posted here and I think your comment here helped me crystallise one of my doubts about this selection. I think Spencer is a poor match for Marcus Smith. For those of you old enough (no hiding now boys) Spencer is like a record playing at 33⅓ whilst Marcus Smith runs at 78. I could see Ford and Randall working together but I doubt Borthwick and co have enough confidence in Randall to start him. If Spencer has to start, I would much prefer to see Ford with him.

By the way, back in my university days it seemed at almost every party someone would play Helter Skelter at 78. Was funny the first few dozen times....

doctor_grey wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:I guess we can expect a forward dominated game plan from England with the bench stacked with 6 forwards.  I am surprised at Ford's inclusion in view as his lack of fitness and lack of versatility.  But Borthwick seems to be going for England to get ahead in the first 60 minutes and Ford then coming on to close the game out. If Feyi-Waboso gets injured, then England have a serious lack of pace.

Looking back over the comments posted here and I think your comment here helped me crystallise one of my doubts about this selection.  I think Spencer is a poor match for Marcus Smith.  For those of you old enough (no hiding now boys) Spencer is like a record playing at 33⅓ whilst Marcus Smith runs at 78. I could see Ford and Randall working together but I doubt Borthwick and co have enough confidence in Randall to start him.  If Spencer has to start, I would much prefer to see Ford with him.      

By the way, back in my university days it seemed at almost every party someone would play Helter Skelter at 78.  Was funny the first few dozen times....

Spencer's speed at the base has been diabolical in an England shirt and that's the major problem. For Bath he's been a great foil for Russell who's not dissimilar in styles to Marcus. I think Marcus and Randall are too similar and we'd end up lacking game management from the halfbacks. If Spencer brings his club form to the international stage we are rosy, if not we're going to struggle a bit.

If England stick with Smith at 10 I wonder if Porter will get a look in at 9 for the 6N. He is now the clear starting 9 at Quins and offers a nice balance of sensible game management, quick delivery and talent for finishing off tries.

Still if it's a close game and it all boils down to a decision by TMO we've got it in the bag with good old Marius.

No, hang on

Are we there yet?  

(It's on at just past midnight where I am, so I've had a whole day to countdown)

Rugby Fan wrote:Are we there yet?  

(It's on at just past midnight where I am, so I've had a whole day to countdown)

As a matter of interest which Int team do you usually support?

mountain man wrote:As a matter of interest which Int team do you usually support?

Always England, and usually northern hemisphere teams against southern hemisphere sides. Elsewhere in the family, there's support for Scotland, Japan and Ireland. I could include Canada, but that branch doesn't care much for rugby.

mountain man wrote:Still if it's a close game and it all boils down to a decision by TMO we've got it in the bag with good old Marius.

No, hang on

World Rugby need to stop playing this joke on us - it wasn't funny with Steve Walsh and it's not funny with this guy either

Yep, have to take officials on trust but Jonker I honestly have my doubts about. Been too many instances where he seems to actively look for something, anything to disallow an England score or penalise etc.

Watching build up, Lawes makes Warburton look like midget! Although Courtney says he was surprised how big NZ are so they must be sizable.

Have to say Warbs is one of my favourite pundits - up there with Michael Lynagh for balance and objectiveness.

Yep he's good. Can be a bit too "nice", maybe still too close to current players and doesn't want to offend anyone so occasionally comes over as almost too even handed
I really rate Paul Grayson, he is excellent.

mountain man wrote:Yep, have to take officials on trust but Jonker I honestly have my doubts about. Been too many instances where he seems to actively look for something, anything to disallow an England score or penalise etc.

Also why do we always seem to get more than our fair share of SH officials, whether we're in the SH or Europe?

mountain man wrote:Watching build up, Lawes makes Warburton look like midget! Although Courtney says he was surprised how big NZ are so they must be sizable.

We need to see Martin really take hold of this game. Can he become one of the games top "tighthead "locks...

Heaf wrote:

mountain man wrote:Yep, have to take officials on trust but Jonker I honestly have my doubts about. Been too many instances where he seems to actively look for something, anything to disallow an England score or penalise etc.

Also why do we always seem to get more than our fair share of SH officials, whether we're in the SH or Europe?

World Rugby must be investigated, their head of referees appoint these match officials

mountain man wrote:Watching build up, Lawes makes Warburton look like midget! Although Courtney says he was surprised how big NZ are so they must be sizable.

I've mentioned it a few times, but the ABs noticeably shifted towards bulkier teams in Fossie's later years. For a long time they had smaller (or not notably big for their position) but technically brilliant players in many positions. Work rate and low error count were massive things that Hansen and Wayne Smith selection was looking for. The likes of Woodcock and Franks on the props. Mealamu, then Coles, then Taylor at hooker. Their props are gargantuan now - the smaller two in todays 23 being 6'4" and well over 20 stone. Jordie and Reiko are back row sized centres too. They are still very skillful of course. Jordie has played FH. Williams and Tosi have the hands of back rows despite being 23 stone. They're a big team these days.

I think there was a clear shift there. The Boks showing what could be done with the bomb squad has had a huge impact on the game of course. France went hyper physical too though. Danty at 12. Antonio at prop. Massive second rows. The Ireland team is stacked with carriers of course and Aki is another freakishly physical 12. Even Fiji at the RWC, they had carriers and jackal threats all through the side. Tuisova at 12. Botia coming on at openside. Mawi and Ravai at prop.

Size isn't everything. Having hyper physical players to get over the gain line in attack and smash rucks in defence does have a tendency to make everything else look easier though.

Rousing anthem at HQ

I've seen England have worst starts. Game on I'd say
Hopefully can be sustained.

Hell of a tempo to start with. Maintaining that when the NZ bench looks stronger will be the worry. It's fast and accurate stuff so far from England though.

So much for the strong England start.

Frustrating. It's a brilliant offload, no doubt. Once Furbank bites in for the 2 man tackle, you should be aiming to prevent the offload at a minimum though.

Mistake immediately on exit from the ABs. A very good platform for England to come back from that disappointing error.

Have to credit NZ with that offload though. Brilliant.
England though come to play but it's maintaining intensity.
One point in it.

It seems that a lot of AB tackles look head head height or at least questionable.

It's been a very entertaining start. Fun game so far. Both sides using some interesting tactics. NZ are aiming to just get wide early it looks like to counter the blitz. Be that through the hands or kick passes. England are playing fast and furious set plays off early phases. It's been very close to breaking through too.

Some really good stuff from both sides.

The ABs have had such luxury at SH for years with Aaron Smith. He was a simply unbelievable 9 for how they liked to play. His speed and accuracy of service, kicking consistency and decision making are outrageously good. He was consistently world class for a long, long time.

Ratima is looking very hesitant at the base at times. I'd hope that England might react by putting more men into rucks to pressure him. When NZ do get the ball wide, they are looking lethal early though. Which is a fair deterrent from firing more defenders into rucks.

Spencer having a good game and at first start
Be interesting to see pace stepped up when Randall gets on but Spencer playing really well.

NZ are starting to get worrying wins in the kicking battle.

Some really strong individual performances so far from key England players though. Smith, that missed touch aside, has been about as good as I've seen him for England. Itoje is absolutely everywhere. CCS is still looking physical against a really physical side.

It feels like both sides are millimetres from breaking through at the moment. Play swinging one way then the other at a frantic rate with surprisingly few points to show for it from either side!

Fabulous by Jordan

Bugger

Really well worked try that. England look quite fatigued compared to NZ.

NZ defending us, better than we are defending them.

Has Gardner offered any explanation for why he is repeatedly allowing NZ to play the 9?

And multiple off the ball tackles
However NZ in attack are very very impressive.

However just been warned about off the ball tackles

That's just class from NZ. Their 10-15 are effectively world class back three players when it comes to counter attacking. Ardie and Sititi are about as good as it gets in open play for forwards too. It allows them to score from anywhere even if parts of their game looks ragged on the day.

The RWC SF against Ireland felt indicative of that. Ireland would painstakingly go through errorless phase play in order to work an excellent try. Then NZ would get a sniff of space, their battalion of winger quick playmakers would hit the turbo button, suddenly they've scored in moments.

England realistically need to score next to keep things tight at halftime.

It's been a brilliant game to watch on a long break between lunch and dinner service!

Melted him!

NZ have been offside at every kick off so far, with no.sanction, and advantage from a knock on is being played very asymmetrically.