England vs South Africa November 15th 2014

First topic message reminder :

Courtney Lawes is a doubt, since he is going through concussion protocols. That would see Kruis start and Kitchener on the bench, unless Lancaster wants to do something funky with Clark. Luther Burrell not in contention, and Stephen Myler still out with a hamstring problem. Haskell is there.

England team to face South Africa:

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton)
David Wilson (Bath)
Dave Attwood (Bath)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
Tom Wood (Northampton)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements

Rob Webber (Bath), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle), George Kruis (Saracens), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Ben Youngs (Leicester), George Ford (Bath), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

South Africa

15 Willie le Roux,
14 JP Pietersen,
13 Jan Serfontein,

12 Jean de Villiers,
11 Bryan Habana,
10 Pat Lambie,
9 Cobus Reinach,
8 Duane Vermeulen,
7 Schalk Burger,
6 Marcell Coetzee,
5 Victor Matfield,
4 Eben Etzebeth,
3 Jannie du Plessis,
2 Adriaan Strauss,
1 Tendai Mtawarira

Replacements:

16 Bismarck du Plessis,
17 Trevor Nyakane,
18 Coenie Oosthuizen,
19 Bakkies Botha,
20 Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje,
21 Francois Hougaard,
22 Handré Pollard,
23 Cornal Hendricks

England have gone without a win in their last eleven Tests against the Springboks. Their best recent result was a draw in Port Elizabeth in June 2012. The match on Saturday will be almost eight years exactly since England's last victory. England have lost their last four Twickenham encounters.

This is the third time Lancaster has taken England through a round of Autumn Internationals. In 2012, his team beat New Zealand. In 2013, it was Australia. He has never beaten South Africa; his record reads one home loss, two away losses and one away draw.

Not when you next best players are already injured Guns.

Bakkies is the next available but can he match Eben's intensity for 80 mins. The lock pairing would have an average age of 36.

Compare this to Lawes and Atwood.

Then we come to Coetzee's replacement. Schalk is the bench option but can't do 80 mins these days. That and a backrow of Mahoje, Schalk and Vermeulen would look a tad unbalanced and top heavy.
You would then be perhaps looking at Kriel to replace him (currently uncapped).

That for me given it intensifies the already large butcher's bill in the pack brings the impression it would be a very long day at the office.

Well im expecting something like:

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Kitchener / Kruis (If Lawes is unfit)
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Farrell
13 Baritt
14 May
15 Brown

GeordieFalcon wrote:

quinsforever wrote:both farrell and ford played alongside Joseph in the u20 RWC. maybe its time to give him a go.

Are you suggesting
10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Joseph

no. was thinking
10 Ford/Farrell
12 Barritt
13 Joseph/Eastmond

Barritt seems more suited to 12 than 13 for me. does a good job for Saracens there.

and when injuries come back, i want to see Burrell at 12 and Manu at 13.

having Barritt at 13 makes england totally unthreatening in midfield and allows players to rush farrell with impunity.

Is Dan Cole injured again?

quinsforever wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

quinsforever wrote:both farrell and ford played alongside Joseph in the u20 RWC. maybe its time to give him a go.

Are you suggesting
10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Joseph

no. was thinking
10 Ford/Farrell
12 Barritt
13 Joseph/Eastmond

Barritt seems more suited to 12 than 13 for me. does a good job for Saracens there.

and when injuries come back, i want to see Burrell at 12 and Manu at 13.

having Barritt at 13 makes england totally unthreatening in midfield and allows players to rush farrell with impunity.

Who of Joseph or Eastmond do you think would do a better job up against Serfontain, quins? In terms of both attack and defence?

Agree - the sooner big Manu and Burrell are back it will be a much more devastating combination.
I'd have Slammin' Sam (if he has to be there... and I think he should) somewhere in the forwards.

Eastmond did fine against the All blacks made 9 tackles missed 1.

 Compared to

 Barritt made 14 missed 3 and Farrell made 7 missed 4.

Eastmond is out isnt he....or is he available?

If he is the i would go

10 Ford
12 Barritt
13 Eastmond

12 and 13 rotating on relevant plays

I think Lancaster will play Ford at 10.

I also think he will play Farrell at 12 as that extra kicking option.

The queston then is does he play Eastmond or Barritt.

Knowing Lancaster it will be Barritt

The biggest issue is Coenie Oosthuizen if Jannie is not fit.

I would hve prefereed to see Redelinghuys

The injuries to our locks have decimated us all year, so whether you replace any of them it doesn't really matter because the best pairing should be young Etzebeth with FLip v d Merwe if you want physicality or Pieter Steph du Toit and Eben if you want mobility.

Stephan Lewies would be my other choice.

SO there isn't much you can do there if Etzebeth is injured as the best four locks in my opinion are not available

Mohoje needs to step up big time, most South African supporters believe he is a quota selection and I am beginning to think they have it right.

HIs work rate is way below par, and Burger certainly is not an 80 minute player anymore. but with so many injuries and the unwillingness of Meyer to select youngsters we have little choice there as well.

My selection would have been to put Coetzee at 7 and BUrger at 6, see how long he can last. Then bring on Kriel.

he halfback pairing deserves their shot.

JP PIetersen is an improvement on Hendricks who literally did nothing In the last test.

WHeter we will win is of course debatable, but with injuries and the selections Meyer refuses to make, that is what we have.

Ford
Farrell
Barritt



Two average players out of position and one Test newbie with a Poopie-load of pressure on him.

Biltong wrote:The biggest issue is Coenie Oosthuizen if Jannie is not fit.

I would hve prefereed to see Redelinghuys

The injuries to our locks have decimated us all year, so whether you replace any of them it doesn't really matter because the best pairing should be young Etzebeth with FLip v d Merwe if you want physicality or Pieter Steph du Toit and Eben if you want mobility.

Stephan Lewies would be my other choice.

SO there isn't much you can do there if Etzebeth is injured as the best four locks in my opinion are not available

Mohoje needs to step up big time, most South African supporters believe he is a quota selection and I am beginning to think they have it right.

HIs work rate is way below par, and Burger certainly is not an 80 minute player anymore. but with so many injuries and the unwillingness of Meyer to select youngsters we have little choice there as well.

My selection would have been to put Coetzee at 7 and BUrger at 6, see how long he can last. Then bring on Kriel.

he halfback pairing deserves their shot.

JP PIetersen is an improvement on Hendricks who literally did nothing In the last test.

WHeter we will win is of course debatable, but with injuries and the selections Meyer refuses to make, that is what we have.

The thing is... BB who would you rather have at 6... Mahoje or Kolisi??? I'd have Kolisi every day. He's perhaps the best tackler in SA, had a great workrate and is a real athlete being able to support even players like Habana.

Problem is Meyer thinks he's too small for blindside at 6'1. He wants him at openside which has caused him to drop down the list and even off the Stormers front line. That's not his game.

Mahoje simply can't just hold onto the shirt. When you have guys like Alberts cutting wide chasm's into the opposition defences it shows what you need to do to get the jersey. He looks too pedestrian... not doing anything wrong, not doing anything interesting to say... hmm, selection worry when Alberts is fit.
When Schalk comes on at 60mins you know he puts his heart and soul into it like the crash test dummy he is.

yappysnap wrote:Ford
Farrell
Barritt



Two average players out of position and one Test newbie with a Poopie-load of pressure on him.

Totally agree Yappy

But i just think Lancaster is so concerned with his template of defece, kicking etc.

If it was me i'd open it up.
You need some form of defesive leader in there...so Barritt would be in, plus he passed well on Saturday.

After that...open it up. Ford at 10, Eastmond at 12.
Eastmond tackled well on Saturday, and Ford has for Bath also in general so the defence whilst not a demolishion job is sound. But they offer so much more in attack.

England are predictable. Teams know what they will do.

Ford and Eastmond will mix that up. And im sure they will Bring Barritt in to the game more offensively also.

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing

 10) Ford
 12) Barritt
 13) Joesph

 TBH I don't mind losing if he actually tries to attack a team rather than try to just stop them scoring.

Welly wrote:I honestly wouldn't mind seeing

 10) Ford
 12) Barritt
 13) Joesph

 TBH I don't mind losing if he actually tries to attack a team rather than try to just stop them scoring.

I think thats the general overriding feeling now Welly.
And similar to what Bracken is going on about on the other thread.

Welly wrote:I honestly wouldn't mind seeing

 10) Ford
 12) Barritt
 13) Joesph

 TBH I don't mind losing if he actually tries to attack a team rather than try to just stop them scoring.

That would be a decent midfield, it has creativity, pace and a solid defender too. Plus everyone is playing in the correct position.

I actually thought Barritt did pretty well against NZ, was solid in defence and threw a nice pass out to May for his try. He has to be at 12 though really for me.

OK, BOK TEAM ANNOUNCED

15 Willie le Roux,
14 JP Pietersen,
13 Jan Serfontein,

12 Jean de Villiers,
11 Bryan Habana,
10 Pat Lambie,
9 Cobus Reinach,
8 Duane Vermeulen,
7 Schalk Burger,
6 Marcell Coetzee,
5 Victor Matfield,
4 Eben Etzebeth,
3 Jannie du Plessis,
2 Adriaan Strauss,
1 Tendai Mtawarira


Replacements:



16 Bismarck du Plessis,
17 Trevor Nyakane,
18 Coenie Oosthuizen,
19 Bakkies Botha,
20 Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje,
21 Francois Hougaard,
22 Handré Pollard,
23 Cornal Hendricks

To me that is possible the best team we could put out considering circumstances.

Although I would like to have seen Kriel or WHiteley on the bench.

Thought Ezebeth had man flu?

GunsGerms wrote:Thought Ezebeth had man flu?

 We should be so lucky.

FA, referring to your above post.

I feel sorry for Kolisi, he has been made a bench player by Allistair Coetzee ths season and last season.

Kolisi for me is one of those blokes that needs game time, and he is not getting enough of it, If I was Kolisi I would go to another franchise where I could get more game time, the Cheetahs possibly as they have lost a lot of players again.

He won't get back his form unless he plays.

I think its a mistake ala BB not put Kriel on the bench and no Bismarck makes no sense. Strauss getting rewarded for being an idiot whilst Bismarck gets punished for being the only man able to pinch a turnover.

With Coetzee struggling with his hamstring who is going to monitor the rucks?

Why is Bismark considered inferior to both John Smit and latterly Strauss?

Id like to see England give Webber a start. And i also look forward to seeing big Keiron come on again.

Meyer has been rotating Bismarck and Strauss for three years now, it has always worked so I see no problem with that.

His biggest problem with the two as been his timing of when he subs them.

As for Strauss' card, if you think he was an idiot then I am afraid we simply won't agree. His card was the luck of the draw, had Kearney made his attempt on WIllie then, he would have copped a card, it happens when you have a referee like Poite.

Bismarck gives away as many silly penalties as Strauss.

Strauss is a blow hard. all gusto, no brains. Easy to deal with for any team of strength. Bissie on the other hand is like a hawk. He's the ultimate dog of war and simply wins games. He'd be the first player on my teamsheet, to be honest he'd be my captain.

Smit was a great player in his day, his leadership by the end was deemed greater than the positional attributes of the next best man... similar to Carling in the latter years of his reign.

However around 08-11 Bissie was the best hooker in the world, we all know PDV was loco for refusing to retire Smit but that's history.

Do you expect a victory then Bilts

Biltong wrote:Meyer has been rotating Bismarck and Strauss for three years now, it has always worked so I see no problem with that.

His biggest problem with the two as been his timing of when he subs them.

As for Strauss' card, if you think he was an idiot then I am afraid we simply won't agree. His card was the luck of the draw, had Kearney made his attempt on WIllie then, he would have copped a card, it happens when you have a referee like Poite.

Bismarck gives away as many silly penalties as Strauss.

The difference is in the sort of penalties BB

Bismarck is the boks primary ruck operator. Most teams have a few but the boks only have Bissie and Louw/Coetzee.

England for instance have Cole, Robshaw, Wood, Marler, Launchbury who are all well respected ruck operators.

Ruck operators play in the grey areas of the game. You have to give away some penalties if you're going to pinch ball. You will never win anything if you stay completely legit. McCaw gives away a lot of penalties for instance.

Strauss gives away penalties for stupid things, high tackles, late tackles, dropped scrums, offsides the lot. He is a tool IMO, talented but brainless.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you expect a victory then Bilts

If you look at our season you will understand why I have no idea what to expect.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Meyer has been rotating Bismarck and Strauss for three years now, it has always worked so I see no problem with that.

His biggest problem with the two as been his timing of when he subs them.

As for Strauss' card, if you think he was an idiot then I am afraid we simply won't agree. His card was the luck of the draw, had Kearney made his attempt on WIllie then, he would have copped a card, it happens when you have a referee like Poite.

Bismarck gives away as many silly penalties as Strauss.

The difference is in the sort of penalties BB

Bismarck is the boks primary ruck operator. Most teams have a few but the boks only have Bissie and Louw/Coetzee.

England for instance have Cole, Robshaw, Wood, Marler, Launchbury who are all well respected ruck operators.

Ruck operators play in the grey areas of the game. You have to give away some penalties if you're going to pinch ball. You will never win anything if you stay completely legit. McCaw gives away a lot of penalties for instance.

Strauss gives away penalties for stupid things, high tackles, late tackles, dropped scrums, offsides the lot. He is a tool IMO, talented but brainless.

No mate, Bismarck gives away the same silly penalties Strauss does, they are to a tee both penalty magnets.

England look like only making the enforced change of Watson for Roko, with Yarde promoted to the bench. Haskell retained with the squad to cover for Wood who has a niggle.

Sounds as though Lawes and Hartley have cleared the concussion protocols and will be available.

As for Bilt's comment above, it's going to be an interesting match as neither set of fans has a clear idea of what to expect.

Billtong, I see the half backs have become the fall guys for the Ireland defeat. Do you think that this will be a big knock to young Pollard's confidence?

Guns I don't think they are seen as the fall guys, maybe you could argue that is the case, but I think Lambie and Reinach was going to start against one of the two teams and Meyer is testing his combinations as he suggested before the tour these two pairings have the inside line.

Fourie du Preez is likely still his number one halfback though.

Meyer had said Lambie was going to start at some point alright but the presumption was that Pollard was the first choice OH. Assuming that he is and given SA/NZ and Oz's tendancy to take England more seriously that all other NH teams surely Meyer would have originally intended starting Pollard v England especially since Lambie hasnt started a match in the last few games. Thats how I see it anyway. Meyer will definitely be putting another spin on it.

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Meyer has been rotating Bismarck and Strauss for three years now, it has always worked so I see no problem with that.

His biggest problem with the two as been his timing of when he subs them.

As for Strauss' card, if you think he was an idiot then I am afraid we simply won't agree. His card was the luck of the draw, had Kearney made his attempt on WIllie then, he would have copped a card, it happens when you have a referee like Poite.

Bismarck gives away as many silly penalties as Strauss.

The difference is in the sort of penalties BB

Bismarck is the boks primary ruck operator. Most teams have a few but the boks only have Bissie and Louw/Coetzee.

England for instance have Cole, Robshaw, Wood, Marler, Launchbury who are all well respected ruck operators.

Ruck operators play in the grey areas of the game. You have to give away some penalties if you're going to pinch ball. You will never win anything if you stay completely legit. McCaw gives away a lot of penalties for instance.

Strauss gives away penalties for stupid things, high tackles, late tackles, dropped scrums, offsides the lot. He is a tool IMO, talented but brainless.

No mate, Bismarck gives away the same silly penalties Strauss does, they are to a tee both penalty magnets.

Strauss is marginally more disciplined than Bissie and while not as physical he does run a few good lines . Would have preferred Bismarck starting , but its not that much of a difference as he'll provide backup power when we need it most in the last 30min so no biggy . Schalk for Mohojo good call , Schalks getting on a bit but when he plays he brings a 100% especially against the English . As for halfbacks glad to see Meyer is not as blue as some of you accuse him to be . He dropped his golden boys when they failed to perform which is what a coach should do . I doubt Pollard would have been benched if the Boks won last week , seeing as this is the biggest game of the tour for us . If Pollard was the starter v NZ he was most definitely meant to start this game with Lambie most likely starting vs Wales and Italy but Meyers hand was forced . At the back JPP for Cornal good call , JPP brings in some badly needed size and mongrel in the backline and no one will be bouncing him in the tackle

Problem with Meyer is his lip talk.

If you asked him the question directly his answer will most likely refer to Pollard being fantastic and Lambie being fantastic, and he is rotating players.

Even if he does see Pollard as the fall guy he will never admit to it because everyone Is fantastic.

Bullsbok wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Meyer has been rotating Bismarck and Strauss for three years now, it has always worked so I see no problem with that.

His biggest problem with the two as been his timing of when he subs them.

As for Strauss' card, if you think he was an idiot then I am afraid we simply won't agree. His card was the luck of the draw, had Kearney made his attempt on WIllie then, he would have copped a card, it happens when you have a referee like Poite.

Bismarck gives away as many silly penalties as Strauss.

The difference is in the sort of penalties BB

Bismarck is the boks primary ruck operator. Most teams have a few but the boks only have Bissie and Louw/Coetzee.

England for instance have Cole, Robshaw, Wood, Marler, Launchbury who are all well respected ruck operators.

Ruck operators play in the grey areas of the game. You have to give away some penalties if you're going to pinch ball. You will never win anything if you stay completely legit. McCaw gives away a lot of penalties for instance.

Strauss gives away penalties for stupid things, high tackles, late tackles, dropped scrums, offsides the lot. He is a tool IMO, talented but brainless.

No mate, Bismarck gives away the same silly penalties Strauss does, they are to a tee both penalty magnets.

Strauss is marginally more disciplined than Bissie and while not as physical he does run a few good lines . Would have preferred Bismarck starting , but its not that much of a difference as he'll provide backup power when we need it most in the last 30min so no biggy . Schalk for Mohojo good call , Schalks getting on a bit but when he plays he brings a 100% especially against the English . As for halfbacks glad to see Meyer is not as blue as some of you accuse him to be . He dropped his golden boys when they failed to perform which is what a coach should do . I doubt Pollard would have been benched if the Boks won last week , seeing as this is the biggest game of the tour for us . If Pollard was the starter v NZ he was most definitely meant to start this game with Lambie most likely starting vs Wales and Italy but Meyers hand was forced . At the back JPP for Cornal good call , JPP brings in some badly needed size and mongrel in the backline and no one will be bouncing him in the tackle

I agree with most of what you said, but I think in the conditions in the NH Meyer wants to see who is suited better between Pollard and Lambie. Pollard is definitely in he poll position in dry conditions.

So its prety much (so long as Englands doubts are passed fit)

8 Duane Vermeulen,
7 Schalk Burger,
6 Marcell Coetzee,
5 Victor Matfield,
4 Eben Etzebeth,
3 Jannie du Plessis,
2 Adriaan Strauss,
1 Tendai Mtawarira

vs
1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola

Who edges it....

Attwood v Ezebeth could be an earthquake.

You are hardly going to tell a 20 year old guy, particularly an out half that they are being dropped because they had a bad game.

Biltong wrote:Problem with Meyer is his lip talk.

If you asked him the question directly his answer will most likely refer to Pollard being fantastic and Lambie being fantastic, and he is rotating players.

Even if he does see Pollard as the fall guy he will never admit to it because everyone Is fantastic.

Do you want him to publicly shatter his rookie flyhalves confidence? Meyer keeps things in-house and i dont blame him . That same policy is probably why we dont here him talking shyte about the refs when they mess up .

GeordieFalcon wrote:So its prety much (so long as Englands doubts are passed fit)

8 Duane Vermeulen,
7 Schalk Burger,
6 Marcell Coetzee,
5 Victor Matfield,
4 Eben Etzebeth,
3 Jannie du Plessis,
2 Adriaan Strauss,
1 Tendai Mtawarira

vs
1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola

Who edges it....

It is going to be very interesting to see who wins the set phases and who wins the breakdown.

i think England's pack just shades it for me. strong, cohesive and very mobile. set pieces might slightly favour SA, but i think open play England's forwards have a slight edge.

It's once the ball leaves the forwards that my confidence falls sharpy.

Biltong wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So its prety much (so long as Englands doubts are passed fit)

8 Duane Vermeulen,
7 Schalk Burger,
6 Marcell Coetzee,
5 Victor Matfield,
4 Eben Etzebeth,
3 Jannie du Plessis,
2 Adriaan Strauss,
1 Tendai Mtawarira

vs
1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola

Who edges it....

It is going to be very interesting to see who wins the set phases and who wins the breakdown.

I think England have the scrum advantage and Boks lineout advantage . Breakdown will be the interesting one neither teams have out and out fetcher (although Thormuelen isnt half bad ) but the england loose trio is a tad more settled

It's once the ball leaves the forwards that my confidence falls sharpy..

Yup im with ya there Quin.

quinsforever wrote:i think England's pack just shades it for me. strong, cohesive and very mobile. set pieces might slightly favour SA, but i think open play England's forwards have a slight edge.

It's once the ball leaves the forwards that my confidence falls sharpy.

NOt sure how you can make that summation.

Strauss, Etzebeth, Matfield (surprisingly still), Coetzee, Burger and Vermeulen are all mobile, Even Beast is quite mobile, you may edge it in raw pace, but other than that the only summation that I might consider at this point.

Biltong wrote:

quinsforever wrote:i think England's pack just shades it for me. strong, cohesive and very mobile. set pieces might slightly favour SA, but i think open play England's forwards have a slight edge.

It's once the ball leaves the forwards that my confidence falls sharpy.

NOt sure how you can make that summation.

Strauss, Etzebeth, Matfield (surprisingly still), Coetzee, Burger and Vermeulen are all mobile, Even Beast is quite mobile, you may edge it in raw pace, but other than that the only summation that I might consider at this point.

Standard procedure for bringing down Vermuelen in particular is 4 tacklers . One to be bounced off and Three to bring him down like a pack of lions bringing down a wildebeest after he picks up his 5 meters

Nice touch, Bulls. I like it. You've just furnished us with perhaps the best weapon for analysing and subduing the Boks. Wildlife documentaries!

I think it was the 2nd test on the last tour (2012 ?) when the Bokke pack beasted England in open play for an extended period.Impressively brutal go forward ball in hand. Although Boks ran out of gas from the intensity, and England managed to shore up their defence to their credit. Boks won. Score ? anyone with a better memory ?

Ever since that test I have felt that is where England are vulnerable vs RSA. The one SH team England have not figured out a way to beat in recent memory.

SecretFly wrote:Nice touch, Bulls.  I like it.  You've just furnished us with perhaps the best weapon for analysing and subduing the Boks.  Wildlife documentaries!

One thing that may mislead you, tranquiliser darts work on Rhinos but not on Vermeulen.

gregortree wrote:I think it was the 2nd test on the last tour (2012 ?) when the Bokke pack beasted England in open play for an extended period.Impressively brutal go forward ball in hand. Although Boks ran out of gas from the intensity, and England managed to shore up their defence to their credit. Boks won. Score ? anyone with a better memory ?

Ever since that test I have felt that is where England are vulnerable vs RSA. The one SH team England have not figured out a way to beat in recent memory.

The socres weren't that far apart, by memory it was around 25-19?

Biltong wrote:

gregortree wrote:I think it was the 2nd test on the last tour (2012 ?) when the Bokke pack beasted England in open play for an extended period.Impressively brutal go forward ball in hand. Although Boks ran out of gas from the intensity, and England managed to shore up their defence to their credit. Boks won. Score ? anyone with a better memory ?

Ever since that test I have felt that is where England are vulnerable vs RSA. The one SH team England have not figured out a way to beat in recent memory.

The socres weren't that far apart, by memory it was around 25-19?

Nah, I checked, 36-27, was still close though

Biltong wrote:

Biltong wrote:

gregortree wrote:I think it was the 2nd test on the last tour (2012 ?) when the Bokke pack beasted England in open play for an extended period.Impressively brutal go forward ball in hand. Although Boks ran out of gas from the intensity, and England managed to shore up their defence to their credit. Boks won. Score ? anyone with a better memory ?

Ever since that test I have felt that is where England are vulnerable vs RSA. The one SH team England have not figured out a way to beat in recent memory.

The socres weren't that far apart, by memory it was around 25-19?

Nah, I checked, 36-27, was still close though

The big player missing from that team is Willem Alberts . Louw is instrumental yes but Alberts is the player we miss the most .

thanks Biltong, probably also out biggest defeat vs RSA since.. well... no I'm not going to say it.

So the lions bring down the wildebeast....

The problem is that then the Hyenas come and chase the lions away.