DARK SUN: Remembering Joe Frazier

First topic message reminder :

Great article on Frazier here: http://thecruelestsport.com/2014/11/11/dark-sun-remembering-joe-frazier/

"From 1968 to 1971, with Ali in exile, Frazier was the dominant heavyweight force in boxing and when Ali returned to settle matters once and for all, it was Frazier who won. The Ring rated Frazier the top-ranked heavyweight in the world for six consecutive years—from 1967 to 1972—a distinction few fighters can claim. Frazier was also voted The Ring “Fighter of the Year” three times."

There's no shame in that, Byrd gave Calzaghe a fight before getting stopped as an amateur didn't he?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

kingraf wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That would be true if we weren't talking about a half arsed 38 year old Lewis who was just in it for another payday, the fight highlights what could have happened were he on top form. Vitali gets too much credit for those first four rounds.

Losing your "0" to,any version of Lewis beats getting your cherry plucked by McCall.

He'd already quit against Byrd by that point Raf.

No excuse. I forgot about that fight. Watched it maybe twice in my life.

Still... Lewis is a better "2" than Rahman

Then there's the non existent win column that makes a mockery of that very comment.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

Im flabagasted anyone would suggest dodgey wraps. At the very least, one of the cuts was caused by lacing (accidentally, and fortunately)

hazharrison wrote:

kingraf wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

kingraf wrote:The Lewis fight was strange... Said more about Vitali's skin  than anything else. Up until that final round, the damage on his face was hardly proportional to the damage he'd taken, or indeed the effect the punches had on him. Don't think I've ever seen a fighter up 4-1 with three different cuts on his face. I know some (Harris) will claim Lewis was landing flush, but Lewis basically discombobulated Tyson, and he didn't look like he'd been in a Saw movie. He also 350 punches on Holy, without anywhere near the damage. About a quarter of the damage later, and Vitali looked like he'd been in a local rumble.

Most peculiar

Is this a dodgy wraps accusation raf?  Maybe vk cuts easy, but no-one who hits like lewis had landed as frequently on him before?

Not at all. Wlad checks the opposition wrapping if I'm not mistaken, and I don't think he'd let his brother go in with a guy with dodgy wraps. Yes, Lewis hit him, and hit him hard, but he basically ragged Tyson around for 10 rounds a year earlier, and Tyson did NOT look like anywhere near that. It wasn't the swelling per se, but I've never seen a fighter 4-1 up with three cuts that deep... It's all good to say Lewis was teeing off (lol at the revisionism though, but I mean since Beating Folley makes you unbeatable to anybody in history...). I'm sure Lewis was fighting clean, I'm just quite baffled by it.

Lewis didn't sit down on his shots against Tyson like he did Klitschko (he had little choice - his legs had gone).

Steward implored him to throw hard shots against Tyson instead of flicking jabs and rights and playing safe if I recall.

read again mate. Haven't accused anybody of dodgy wraps, or even hinted at it. I have though stated that the state of the cuts were hardly proportional to the accrued damage.

It's really not Vitalis fault the quality got dire. The resentment is misplaced, Harris. Had Mcall not given Lewis the rematch, who knows how Lewis is seen? Luckily (for Lewis) he lost to a trier who needed the rematch money, not a world champ... Rather opaque feature of boxing, that... Losing to triers is fine... as long as you beat them the second time... and then beat the other trier you lost to... But god forbid you lose a world championship fight on cuts.

It makes a big difference when you aren't consistently beating top fighters or destroying the lesser so ones. Vitali had his chance against a shot Lewis and failed, that fight showed he wasn't in the same class.

I think it showed he was well within that class only slightly less than lewis. I seem to remember the cut being caused by a lace from his glove but might be mistaken then lewis gaining a second wind once he saw a target that wasn't his opponents granite chin. I think that was a great performance from vital and an element of bad luck cost him a potential win although I'd probably back lewis to sneak it. With regards to vitali quitting against Byrd. .. I thought it a sensible decision, everyone pays lip service to a fighter putting his life and limb on the line yet a man withdraws from a fight he was easily winning after the doctor advised him could damage his long term career and he's a quitter. As for Wladimir,yes he is dull and yes he looks worried about any punch that comes close but despite that he could handle himself well against most heavyweights in history. Perhaps not Tyson or Liston and a few others but he would not disgrace himself ina head to head. Only in the wonderful sport that is boxing can someone fall from the highest expectation right to the bottom and drag himself inch by inch back to the top with courage, discipline, hard work and good grace and get pilloried for it.

ShahenshahG wrote:I think it showed he was well within that class only slightly less than lewis. I seem to remember the cut being caused by a lace from his glove but might be mistaken then lewis gaining a second wind once he saw a target that wasn't his opponents granite chin. I think that was a great performance from vital and an element of bad luck cost him a potential win although I'd probably back lewis to sneak it. With regards to vitali  quitting against Byrd. .. I thought it a sensible decision, everyone pays lip service to a fighter putting his life and limb on the line yet a man withdraws from a fight he was easily winning after the doctor advised him could damage his long term career and he's a quitter. As for Wladimir,yes he is dull and yes he looks worried about any punch that comes close but despite that he could handle himself well against most heavyweights in history. Perhaps not Tyson or Liston and a few others but he would not disgrace himself ina head to head. Only in the wonderful sport that is boxing can someone fall from the highest expectation right to the bottom and drag himself inch by inch back to the top with courage, discipline, hard work and good grace and get pilloried for it.

He's never shown courage.

As for Vitali: feels a bit uncomfortable hearing a confirmed steroid cheat being compared to the great heavyweight champions (the majority of whom were on the level).

Yes. Great heroes give up when they get knocked down only cowards get up from knockdown to win and come back and fix their problems and rise to the top again. As for the latter carp I notice you don't hold Shane Moseley or evander holyfield to the same standard as you hold vitali despite there being no suggestion that he took drugs during his professional career.

ShahenshahG wrote:Yes. Great heroes give up when they get knocked down only cowards get up from knockdown to win and come back and fix their problems and rise to the top again. As for the latter carp I notice you don't hold Shane Moseley or evander holyfield to the same standard as you hold vitali despite there being no suggestion that he took drugs during his professional career.

Mosley is a confirmed cheat. I hold him in the exact same regard as Klitschko. If a fighter is busted for PEDs they should be banned for life in my book.

Holyfield was never proven.

Wlad hasn't ever been in a fight he wasn't favoured to win (heavily favoured in most cases). I don't see that - or his gutless showings - heroic or courageous.

Or he rose to the top because big brother was injured and took an extended leave which opened the door for the less able one to excel against luminaries such as Samuel Peter and Sultan Ibragimov.

hazharrison wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:Yes. Great heroes give up when they get knocked down only cowards get up from knockdown to win and come back and fix their problems and rise to the top again. As for the latter carp I notice you don't hold Shane Moseley or evander holyfield to the same standard as you hold vitali despite there being no suggestion that he took drugs during his professional career.

Mosley is a confirmed cheat. I hold him in the exact same regard as Klitschko. If a fighter is busted for PEDs they should be banned for life in my book.

Holyfield was never proven.

Wlad hasn't ever been in a fight he wasn't favoured to win (heavily favoured in most cases). I don't see that - or his gutless showings - heroic or courageous.

Indeed, one of the greatest misfortunes in the history of humanity was Poor Holyfield having a similar name as a person who bought steroids... Even worse, the culprit strangely gave the distributor Holyfield's cell phone number instead of his own. Bastard had the exact same birth date as well.

Yeh poor old Evander got well stitched up by that guy Evan.

I have sympathy with shah's view. Does it take more courage to get in the ring knowing you're chinny, than knowing you can take anything? To me, amir khan needs more courage to get through the ropes than George chivalo.

Wlad's safety first approach doesn't warm me to watching him, but I admire the guy for rebuilding his career. On the flipside it's not great for boxing that a guy with a safety first approach is dominating, but let's face it, without him there'd have been a load of tat, swapping titles. I don't hold it against him... Like many I just wish the division had some talent or at least some excitement.

Wlad might not have a fan friendly style,but when you consider the objective of boxing is to hit and not get hit,he deserves immense credit for excelling here. He also knows he doesn't need to get into wars when he can pick people off so easily from distance with his huge size and strength. I still think Haye is the man to dethrone him if he can get his act together and not be so afraid next time.

...two big ifs animal... A third if you throw in fully functioning little toes.

I'm not suggesting was clean during his peak - Dr. Margaret Goodman suggested the heart problem he suffered against Moorer was a complaint synonymous with HGH use.

Nothing proven, though, in the same way Klitschko and Mosely were proven cheats. Holyfield used to bring a lot of money into Vegas. I'm sure once this generation wander off into obscurity the truth will out and a million careers will be confined to dust bins.

Look at the '88 Olympic 100m field. All but one flat out cheats.

I think Wlad showed courage in the Peter fight. He could of been down and out but he hung in there and got the decision. Honestly how people can't show a man a bit of respect when he came back from devastating knock outs.

most boxers wouldn't have the guts or determination to keep going to prove themselves like Wlad and Khan. Both guys brush themselves off and come again when criticized. They both have my respect for answering their critics.

The determination to foist greatness and accolades on the Klitschkos is impressive. Never more so than Wladimirs amazing comeback from a series of humiliating defeats against mediocrity to beat.......mediocrity. Or Vitalis heroic inability to beat a half assed, unmotivated, uninterested Lennox Lewis.

I know I haven't the character to be a boxer, let alone one. That gets knocked out 3 times then comes back to dominate.

I don't give a sh.t if your up against todays crop or whoever but it takes a lot of guts to come back and be a champion after being humilated.