How high should Sonny Liston rank on all time lists?

First topic message reminder :

Thought I might try another one of these seeing as there was some excellent debate on the Jim Jeffries thread. Ignoring all the "old v modern" nonsense, where do we think Sonny should rank amongst the greats?

In his pomp, Liston was a truly formidable figure with brutal power in both fists, a ramrod jab, incredible physical strength and sometimes underrated boxing skills. His links to the mob, his fighting prowess and his surly, aggressive nature made Liston one of the most feared boxers in history.

An early career defeat to Marty Marshall, when Liston evidently fought for much of the fight with a broken jaw, was avenged twice over and he holds early knockouts over good fighters such as number one contender Cleveland Williams (x2), Nino Valdes, and Zora Folley. Liston also had a solid win over the seasoned and awkward Eddie Machen before going on to destroy World Champion, Floyd Patterson, in less than a round. Liston repeated the trick in his first defense, once again proving way too much for Patterson.

Then came 1964 and the emergence of a young Cassius Clay who beat Liston for the title, with Sonny retiring on his stool, citing a shoulder injury in the 6th round. Liston and Clay rematched in 1965, with the fight ending in the first round following one of the most notorious "punches" in boxing history. Liston fought on after the humiliation of the second Clay fight, winning fights in Sweden and the USA before losing to Leotis Martin on a 9th round knockout in a fight he was winning. Liston had a final fight with Chuck Wepner, cutting him to pieces before the fight was halted in the 10th.

Where does this leave Liston in the pantheon of heavyweight greats? A truly intimidating presence, brutal power, better skills than he was often credited with, including a consumate performance in the first Cleveland Williams fight and an aura of fear that pervaded the division at the time. On the flip side, the losses to Ali will forever be a weight on his legacy, even though many respected observers claim the "punch" in the second fight was a legitimate knockout blow and Ali himself went on to be the "greatest". Also, Patterson, although seen as a capable champion, will never be a top ten claiment himself.

Can Liston ever be a top ten heavyweight or is his record just too inconclusive? For the record, I have him just outside the top 10, mixed with likes of Holyfield, Charles, Tunney and Tyson.

Somehow, I find it extremely apt that our azania should so often discuss a fighter named ' Herbie.'

Jimmy Stuart wrote:nbeatable over 25 rounds although Az claimed it wouldn't matter as Herbie Hide or Frank Bruno would get him out of there in "double quick time". Herbie Hide, I kid you not!
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Dear god Tino, that rivals his comment of Chris Arreola has faster hands than Joe Louis, cant remember if it was Az who also proclaimed Jamie Moore would beat Sugar Ray Robinson..

Modern diet and that works wonders.

Don't worry Jimmy, Az was given a Duran style beatdown by a few of the more open minded types. Have too hand it to him though, he was resolute in his defense of the indefensible. In fact, dare I say it, he displayed Jeffries like durability!

Most definitely Tino, don't agree with 99% of what Az says but he certainly has incredible resilience & to be fair along with D4 can disagree without reverting to insults and aggressiveness.

Jimmy Stuart wrote:Most definitely Tino, don't agree with 99% of what Az says but he certainly has incredible resilience & to be fair along with D4 can disagree without reverting to insults and aggressiveness.

Modern nutrition/training.

Modern nutrition/training.
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Ha nice one Scott, maybes I could do with some to fend off the Wife.

az seems to be a great bloke.

I just feel that we should open a ' Gardening ' section, so that he can go visit that while others are discussing old timers.

He'll be in his element discussing organic fertilizer, as opposed to spraying it over the old time fighters.

HumanWindmill wrote:az seems to be a great bloke.

I just feel that we should open a ' Gardening ' section, so that he can go visit that while others are discussing old timers.

He'll be in his element discussing organic fertilizer, as opposed to spraying it over the old time fighters.

Good one windy.

I stand by the Herbie and Bruno beating Jeffries comment. If the fight were help in the local boozer then I'd back Jeffries.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:az seems to be a great bloke.

I just feel that we should open a ' Gardening ' section, so that he can go visit that while others are discussing old timers.

He'll be in his element discussing organic fertilizer, as opposed to spraying it over the old time fighters.

Good one windy.

I stand by the Herbie and Bruno beating Jeffries comment. If the fight were help in the local boozer then I'd back Jeffries.

How are your roses and geraniums getting on, az ?

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:az seems to be a great bloke.

I just feel that we should open a ' Gardening ' section, so that he can go visit that while others are discussing old timers.

He'll be in his element discussing organic fertilizer, as opposed to spraying it over the old time fighters.

Good one windy.

I stand by the Herbie and Bruno beating Jeffries comment. If the fight were help in the local boozer then I'd back Jeffries.

How are your roses and geraniums getting on, az ?

They need more manure

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:az seems to be a great bloke.

I just feel that we should open a ' Gardening ' section, so that he can go visit that while others are discussing old timers.

He'll be in his element discussing organic fertilizer, as opposed to spraying it over the old time fighters.

Good one windy.

I stand by the Herbie and Bruno beating Jeffries comment. If the fight were help in the local boozer then I'd back Jeffries.

How are your roses and geraniums getting on, az ?

They need more manure

Talk to them. That should do the trick.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:az seems to be a great bloke.

I just feel that we should open a ' Gardening ' section, so that he can go visit that while others are discussing old timers.

He'll be in his element discussing organic fertilizer, as opposed to spraying it over the old time fighters.

Good one windy.

I stand by the Herbie and Bruno beating Jeffries comment. If the fight were help in the local boozer then I'd back Jeffries.

How are your roses and geraniums getting on, az ?

They need more manure

Talk to them. That should do the trick.

Haha. You seem to be on form today.

You are an inspiration, az.

HumanWindmill wrote:You are an inspiration, az.

I give you material no doubt.

Hide is a joke...but I imagine if Bruno caught most heavies from Louis to Ali on the chin...he'd have them in great trouble..

Certainly have a good chance with Jeffries defence

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hide is a joke...but I imagine if Bruno caught most heavies from Louis to Ali on the chin...he'd have them in great trouble..

Certainly have a good chance with Jeffries defence

Hide may have been a chinless joke, but he was a fast chinless wonder with a dig on him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hide is a joke...but I imagine if Bruno caught most heavies from Louis to Ali on the chin...he'd have them in great trouble..

Certainly have a good chance with Jeffries defence

Truss, I don't think anyone would argue that Bruno had a dig that could take another heavyweight out if he caught them flush, the problem is he was found wanting everytime he stepped up to world class. He punched relatively slowly and relied more on using his physical strength to get people into position for punishing shots. It is not like he would slip a jab, drop the shoulder and land a short left hook in an flash. Just not the way Frank worked it. It is ok bashing up Jose Ribalta and John Emmen, but a fit, athletic and strong Jim Jeffries coming at him would be another thing altogether. It is not like big Frank was impervious to pain either.

I do agree that he could, if he connected properly, have Jeffries in trouble, I just think he would be worked over and stopped with relative ease.

As for our man Hide? You know what, I have changed my mind, he would take Jeffries out. In fact I think he would beat everyone other than Ali who was just that little bit faster than Herbie.