Winners of the 6ns based on the Ais.

First topic message reminder :

Should be Ireland in first place.

England/Wales/Wales/England fighting it out for 2nd 3rd place.

Have not seen any of the France games or Scotland games for that matter.

Will their be a GRAND SLAM next year? probably not.

But it will be very exciting to see if the Ais have any bearing on the 6ns.

Your thoughts.

I'll bet though that each and every one of the SH sides went home and thanked their lucky stars that they didn't have a part to play in the 6N.  

I think NH rugby is a little too raw for their sensibilities.  I mean they can cope, but they also love leaving the slog to the Northern boys.

Could be a lot of long term injuries coming out of the next version in the new year if that shower of Wales, France, Scotland, England and Ireland get at each other with intent!

That's the bit I worry about.  Warfare and injury.... bye, bye WC, it was nice thinking about you for a while.

I think the upcoming 6N could be a real bone cruncher of a contest, the SHers are well out of it.

Ireland deserve the favourite tags and with England and France at home they may just pull of the slam but I doubt it.

I think Ireland will win the championship but it's always close and despite how well there playing it's still pretty close between the top 4 and anyone can win on the day.

Based on the AI's, its hard to look past Ireland for the 6N. Of course injuries could disrupt that (as it could for all teams).

Interestingly I feel as if Ireland, Wales and England have shown a broadly similar plan against the SH teams, which is based on a high work rate around the pitch. I can't help but feel that for all of them that works up to a point, but it can be hard to sustain for 80 minutes, let alone a whole WC campaign, so a plan B will be needed, especially against NZ and Oz, who have a level of skill and flair in the backs that other teams can only dream of.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Based on the AI's, its hard to look past Ireland for the 6N. Of course injuries could disrupt that (as it could for all teams).

Interestingly I feel as if Ireland, Wales and England have shown a broadly similar plan against the SH teams, which is based on a high work rate around the pitch. I can't help but feel that for all of them that works up to a point, but it can be hard to sustain for 80 minutes, let alone a whole WC campaign, so a plan B will be needed, especially against NZ and Oz, who have a level of skill and flair in the backs that other teams can only dream of.

I have seen this a couple of times, but the problem is what is plan B?

TJ wrote:Italy - getting closer year on year.  Still short of enough class players

Not in the last 6 Nations they weren't. They got no wins, thumped by most sides and even lost to Scotland at home.

Their AI results were pretty mediocre too.

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:
rodders England 5th? Really? That's a laughably poor prediction.

Not even sure how you get to that conclusion when you say France will lose to England - you genuinely think Scotland or Italy will win at Twickenham!?

Scotland haven't beaten England at Twickenham since 83 (31 years) and Italy have never beaten England.

I think England could lose 2-3 games and Scotland could pick up 2-3 wins so it will be close for 3 -5th. Yes 5th is too low - England 4th probably.

England could lose all 5 games but it's unlikely. The likely result is 3 home wins, 2 away losses.

Where are Scotland going to pick up wins in your opinion?

1 win vs Italy sure I can see that - the rest?

France and England away?

Ireland and Wales at home?

I'd be really disappointed if we lose more than a game. I can see a defeat to Wales or Ireland but not both. Suspect the hardest game will be Wales away given there'll no doubt be a new centre combo following injury!

For me England's success at the six nations and the world cup sadly hinges on the fitness and availability of the recently injury prone Manusamoa Tuilagi. We have great cover and strength in depth in every other position and our pack will be a formidable beast if Corbs and Cole are fit but our backline is pretty pants without our Samoan wrecking ball.

The fixture list favors Wales and Ireland for me with England away against these two celtic nations but strength in depth is a bit thin for these guys so it all comes down to injuries.

To summarise my ramblings: full strength teams throughout = 1) Ireland, 2) Wales 3) England 4) France 5)Scotland 6) Italy.  Few injuries to wales or ireland then England.

I'd be stupid to say there are not issues, but England results look poor as much because we had by far the hardest schedule over the summer and into the AI's.

Of course Ireland are current favourites, but what is fun right now is that all of us home nation fans are feeling some confidence about the 6N next year. - So France Italy one two it is then....

LordDowlais wrote: So basing your your findings they are going to finish the six nations ahead of Wales, with these "GREAT PLAYERS" in many positions, and beat Wales with their "LIMITED GAME PLAN" that has worked since the last time you beat us in 2007 ? I'll tell you what, I will reserve judgement until next year, because if Wales beat England first up, they will take some stopping. God you have to love the optimism of the Scotts on here.

LD, nothing wrong with having a bit of optimism, albeit they always have an abundance of that when it comes to facing our lot .

In further response to that comment, we actually do have a lot of settled combo's. Positions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 - all the key positions nailed on and no indecision of selection there. The only reason that I haven't included 13 and 15 is that a lot of fans and the coaches disagree over who should own those positions. We have two good options at 15, with other tested options waiting in the ranks. Wingers need freshening up after this autumn, Cuthbert and North both poor-average. 9 options looking good so long as Phillips doesn't get in their way. S.Williams and Allen are also good options at 12/13. So this kinda blows the 'no strength in depth' claim out of the water. Good depth at 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, centre, 15. We have some, just not as much as others, but probably more than Scotland! Fingers crossed our injury count is a bit less by February so we can have a decent bench. Our game plan seen some variation in this series too, and whatever plan we executed had worked to some extent in every game. Whoever thinks otherwise clearly hasn't watched any of our games.
Scotland have improved, but that just goes to show how bad they were previously. It's good to score 5 tries against Arg, but not if you let in 5 tries as well. I think Scotland are an okay team with some standout individuals, I still think Wales will beat them. We don't ever look like losing whenever we play them.

Further to what I've said, the tactics we employed against SA can be expected for the 6 Nations, especially against Eng, Ire and France; the only teams with players capable of overpowering us. At times in this series our defence has looked a lot better than last year. It's just been a few 1 V 1s that have let us down. I expect the defence to have improved by Feb and see us match previous defence records set in past tournaments.

lostinwales wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:Based on the AI's, its hard to look past Ireland for the 6N. Of course injuries could disrupt that (as it could for all teams).

Interestingly I feel as if Ireland, Wales and England have shown a broadly similar plan against the SH teams, which is based on a high work rate around the pitch. I can't help but feel that for all of them that works up to a point, but it can be hard to sustain for 80 minutes, let alone a whole WC campaign, so a plan B will be needed, especially against NZ and Oz, who have a level of skill and flair in the backs that other teams can only dream of.

I have seen this a couple of times, but the problem is what is plan B?

I suppose really plan B would have to be a more attacking Australian style. Or it could be a real territory corners game. Either way it seems if all 3 are focusing on pressing hard and keeping the work rate high, so that they are in the game/ just in front at the 60 mins mark.

Basing it on the AIs? Surely you'd have to have Ireland for the slam?!

Failing that England/Ireland/Wales all even on points with Wales taking it

England and Wales is such a focal game this time round. No time for either side to warm up, straight into a life or death struggle in ways (well for Slam anyway).

So I just hope that game pans out well for us and that both teams lose heavily on the day

Realistically any of England, Ireland, France or Wales will win. Ireland may be favorites but back to back championship wins are hard to come by especially given that the big matches tend to be fairly close these days so can go either way.

I wouldnt really put much money on anyone.

With the news that Mike Ross has tethered himself with a piece of string to a combine harvester in a field near a bog containing rare mushroom spores that just cannot be disturbed during the month of January, I think Ireland's chances have plummeted.

Ross and David Pocock are now exchanging tweets and hoping to encourage others to join them on their environmental protest - rumours are that Owen Farrell, Mike Phillips and Phillipe Saint Andre may join them in the Spring have not been confirmed as yet.

Bookmakers are hurriedly revising their odds for next year's comp.

away wins will be the key

France - Ireland and England
England - Wales and Ireland
Wales -  France
Ireland - Wales


Whoever can win 1, and win 1 in the first 2 weeks will be well on the way that's for sure.

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Lord dowlais it's best not to take TJ too seriously - he's a WUM. His description of Scotland is hilariously inaccurate. When will Scotland be declared as dark horses......  

This is the likely table in my opinion:

Ireland
England
Wales
France
Scotland
Italy

I'd go with that beshocked, you could not put a fag paper between Ireland,England and Wales when it comes to the 6N, I am just glad we have those two games at home. Playing at home can make all the difference and is sometimes that little extra that you need to win.

If you look at the scores of the games I agree with BS.

But performance wise, England got a good score vs NZ and the Boks but they played some pretty awful rugby. Farrell at ten was a very bad decision, Ford a much better one.  They were not good against Samoa either. Finally put in a decent performance in the last match.

Wales kept the quality of the performance up more consistently than England. I think that might be the difference going forward. Wales are a year ahead of England in progression and will be the better of the two teams.

considering englands performances were pretty poor they were very close to winning both against NZ and SA. Imagine what will happen with a good performance?

We saw England play at their best on Saturday...!

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Lord dowlais it's best not to take TJ too seriously - he's a WUM. His description of Scotland is hilariously inaccurate. When will Scotland be declared as dark horses......  

This is the likely table in my opinion:

Ireland
England
Wales
France
Scotland
Italy

I'd go with that beshocked, you could not put a fag paper between Ireland,England and Wales when it comes to the 6N, I am just glad we have those two games at home. Playing at home can make all the difference and is sometimes that little extra that you need to win.

If you look at the scores of the games I agree with BS.

But performance wise, England got a good score vs NZ and the Boks but they played some pretty awful rugby. Farrell at ten was a very bad decision, Ford a much better one.  They were not good against Samoa either. Finally put in a decent performance in the last match.

Wales kept the quality of the performance up more consistently than England. I think that might be the difference going forward. Wales are a year ahead of England in progression and will be the better of the two teams.

considering englands performances were pretty poor they were very close to winning both against NZ and SA. Imagine what will happen with a good performance?

We saw England play at their best on Saturday...!

England have still got a lot to improve on based on Saturday's performance. This is a good thing.

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Lord dowlais it's best not to take TJ too seriously - he's a WUM. His description of Scotland is hilariously inaccurate. When will Scotland be declared as dark horses......  

This is the likely table in my opinion:

Ireland
England
Wales
France
Scotland
Italy

I'd go with that beshocked, you could not put a fag paper between Ireland,England and Wales when it comes to the 6N, I am just glad we have those two games at home. Playing at home can make all the difference and is sometimes that little extra that you need to win.

If you look at the scores of the games I agree with BS.

But performance wise, England got a good score vs NZ and the Boks but they played some pretty awful rugby. Farrell at ten was a very bad decision, Ford a much better one.  They were not good against Samoa either. Finally put in a decent performance in the last match.

Wales kept the quality of the performance up more consistently than England. I think that might be the difference going forward. Wales are a year ahead of England in progression and will be the better of the two teams.

considering englands performances were pretty poor they were very close to winning both against NZ and SA. Imagine what will happen with a good performance?

We saw England play at their best on Saturday...!

Not bad given they were missing their first choice

1 - Corbisiero
3 - Cole
4 - Launchbury
12 - Burrell/Tuilagi
13 - Burrell/Tuilagi

and all are due to come back in line for the 6N.

Cyril wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Lord dowlais it's best not to take TJ too seriously - he's a WUM. His description of Scotland is hilariously inaccurate. When will Scotland be declared as dark horses......  

This is the likely table in my opinion:

Ireland
England
Wales
France
Scotland
Italy

I'd go with that beshocked, you could not put a fag paper between Ireland,England and Wales when it comes to the 6N, I am just glad we have those two games at home. Playing at home can make all the difference and is sometimes that little extra that you need to win.

If you look at the scores of the games I agree with BS.

But performance wise, England got a good score vs NZ and the Boks but they played some pretty awful rugby. Farrell at ten was a very bad decision, Ford a much better one.  They were not good against Samoa either. Finally put in a decent performance in the last match.

Wales kept the quality of the performance up more consistently than England. I think that might be the difference going forward. Wales are a year ahead of England in progression and will be the better of the two teams.

considering englands performances were pretty poor they were very close to winning both against NZ and SA. Imagine what will happen with a good performance?

We saw England play at their best on Saturday...!

England have still got a lot to improve on based on Saturday's performance. This is a good thing.

I do agree with you that England do have a lot to improve on. And do have a lot of first choice player's to come back into the team to help that improvement.

Ireland were more consistent & got the results they deserved.

England's pack kept them in all the games & were consistently excellent. England were creating chances in all the games and finished convincing winners against Australia in the end.

Wales were awful against Fiji (sorry MM can't agree that Wales were consistent) probably the worst performance I've seen from Wales for a while & even against SA, where the result was more important for sure both teams were pretty bad & the game was full of mistakes from both sides.
Wales only looked good going forward in the first game & then regressed into Warrenball.

Scotland have definitely moved on & should be a challenge for most teams at home.

Italy are still struggling.

France same old same old - horribly inconsistent.

I see 3 distinct groups in the 6Ns

Ireland/England

Scotland/France/Wales

Italy

GunsGerms wrote:Realistically any of England, Ireland, France or Wales will win.

All recent history suggests only Ireland or Wales can do the slam- it's in their hands to win and for France or England to capitalise if they slip up and pip it on points. Not since Martin Johnsons mighty white orcs were at their peak has Cardiff and Dublin been breached in a single campaign and can Les Bleus win in Dublin and Twickers? - je pense nein, mes amis....

2013 Wales - no slam
2011 England - no slam
2009 Ireland - slam
2007 France - no slam
2005 Wales - slam

Ireland may have a better chance of a Slam on uneven years because they have England and France at home. But they actually have less of a chance of taking the title on points difference with four wins. Since they don't have three home games to rack up points like they did last year. I don't think a Slam is likely so I don't think Ireland will retain the title.

When talking about the significance of home/away you also have to consider the bizarre statistics between Wales and Ireland which suggest the away team should be favourite's.

nathan wrote:

considering englands performances were pretty poor they were very close to winning both against NZ and SA. Imagine what will happen with a good performance?

By the 80 minute mark the scoreline looked respectable for England, but to me they never looked like winning against NZ or SA. The funny thing is if you were Welsh you'd be getting absolutely slated for suggesting that. England look a bit stagnant IMO. A tournament win relies on injured players coming back into this current squad, giving them a very strong matchday 23.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Ireland were more consistent & got the results they deserved.

England's pack kept them in all the games & were consistently excellent. England were creating chances in all the games and finished convincing winners against Australia in the end.

Wales were awful against Fiji (sorry MM can't agree that Wales were consistent) probably the worst performance I've seen from Wales for a while & even against SA, where the result was more important for sure both teams were pretty bad & the game was full of mistakes from both sides.
Wales only looked good going forward in the first game & then regressed into Warrenball.

Scotland have definitely moved on & should be a challenge for most teams at home.

Italy are still struggling.

France same old same old - horribly inconsistent.

I see 3 distinct groups in the 6Ns

Ireland/England

Scotland/France/Wales

Italy

While you've spoken a fair bit of sense in this post, you gotta love these unbelievable bonehead comparisons.

Wales and England have a tough one to start off.  But really in strategic terms so do we.

Italy first up and away.  Habitually the weakest side in 6N but not always found weak!  Certainly at the beginning, when fresh and eager and at home is not a good time to face them.

So Ireland needs to win first (which might prove sticky if they're not playing ball and we're off pace)  But even supposing we do win, that will only be half the battle.  We have an obligation to the Title Hopes and that means we have to try to rack up the points against them.  We have to try to score as heavily as we can, because other sides will be of a mind to.

So no easy start for us.  A win in Rome and really no foot off the accelerator for the full 80 if at all possible.

The Saint wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Ireland were more consistent & got the results they deserved.

England's pack kept them in all the games & were consistently excellent. England were creating chances in all the games and finished convincing winners against Australia in the end.

Wales were awful against Fiji (sorry MM can't agree that Wales were consistent) probably the worst performance I've seen from Wales for a while & even against SA, where the result was more important for sure both teams were pretty bad & the game was full of mistakes from both sides.
Wales only looked good going forward in the first game & then regressed into Warrenball.

Scotland have definitely moved on & should be a challenge for most teams at home.

Italy are still struggling.

France same old same old - horribly inconsistent.

I see 3 distinct groups in the 6Ns

Ireland/England

Scotland/France/Wales

Italy

While you've spoken a fair bit of sense in this post, you gotta love these unbelievable bonehead comparisons.

So I spoke sense but you didn't like the conclusion
Play like you did against Fiji & it's the spoon

Ok, lets take some perspective on this, England forwards did look good, but they still lost against New Zealand and South Africa, and they beat the Aussies, but anybody's pack can look good against that lot, what this proves to me is, a side with a good pack, can beat England, and I am not suggesting that they WILL beat England, but the European sides do have decent packs so if they front up there could be trouble for England, Wales on the other hand lost to Australia, although they out scroed them in tries, and we lost in the last ten minutes to the All Blacks, not in one game though did our pack look in trouble, but we need to learn the composure of the other teams.

Ireland, yes they had a very impressive series, but they did not play New Zealand, having said that against South Africa they looked the real deal, Scotland beat Argentina and Tonga, and lost to a 2nd New Zealand side. So, this has got me thinking, if any team gets parity with the English forwards they stand a chance of beating them.

Now after what I have watched over the Autumn, I cannot see anything between England, Ireland and Wales. It will be a one two three in what ever order, and seeing as Wales has Ireland and England at Cardiff, if Wales beat England first up then I can see us winning the 6N, the game out in Paris will then become very important for us. Do I think it will have any bearing on the WC, no. There is still another 8 months to go for the WC and anything can happen up until then.

So to summarise, if Wales beat England first up, we could win the 6N, if we lose, then it will be a long end to the Winter for us. But should we win, look out everybody else.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

The Saint wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Ireland were more consistent & got the results they deserved.

England's pack kept them in all the games & were consistently excellent. England were creating chances in all the games and finished convincing winners against Australia in the end.

Wales were awful against Fiji (sorry MM can't agree that Wales were consistent) probably the worst performance I've seen from Wales for a while & even against SA, where the result was more important for sure both teams were pretty bad & the game was full of mistakes from both sides.
Wales only looked good going forward in the first game & then regressed into Warrenball.

Scotland have definitely moved on & should be a challenge for most teams at home.

Italy are still struggling.

France same old same old - horribly inconsistent.

I see 3 distinct groups in the 6Ns

Ireland/England

Scotland/France/Wales

Italy

While you've spoken a fair bit of sense in this post, you gotta love these unbelievable bonehead comparisons.

So I spoke sense but you didn't like the conclusion
Play like you did against Fiji & it's the spoon

Trev, I agree with some of what you wrote, like Wales being awful against Fiji, but it doesnt worry me too much because that side was a bit of a mish mash of players who werent goign to be starting against NZ/SA in the main. Sounds strange but every year when we have the AIs we have 1 game where we change the side compeltely and as usual, the games a mess and we struggle.

I'd also disagree with the Warrenball comment. I'd go as below:
Australia game - Some variation, halfbacks established themselves as a threat, speed of delivery from the 9 was much improved
Fiji- mess of a game, trying to run fom anyhwere, not setting a platform anywhere
New Zealand - Warrenball tactics
South Africa - We finally saw variation in the play, Roberts used as a decoy, the ball going through the hands and smart tactical kicking from the midfield. This came as a result of having a 9 holding the defence and gving the 10 time, and the 10 making the right decisions with decent execution.

I'm actually pretty happy with the development in the attacking play, especially off 1st phase from set piece. For the last 4 years we've just given it to Roberts, now we're finally starting to play off him and use him as a decoy and our 9 is giving the backs time to play some rugby. Im hoping its the start of some real development in that, I think we've got all the raw tools in the backline to cause any team in the world problems but the philospohy obviously hinders that.

I'd say the categories for the 6 nations are 2 mini groups of England/Ireland/Wales and Scotland/Italy. France are in a group of their won but 1 more Poopie 6nations and they join Scotland/Italy imo.

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, lets take some perspective on this, England forwards did look good, but they still lost against New Zealand and South Africa, and they beat the Aussies, but anybody's pack can look good against that lot, what this proves to me is, a side with a good pack, can beat England, and I am not suggesting that they WILL beat England, but the European sides do have decent packs so if they front up there could be trouble for England, Wales on the other hand lost to Australia, although they out scroed them in tries, and we lost in the last ten minutes to the All Blacks, not in one game though did our pack look in trouble, but we need to learn the composure of the other teams.

Ireland, yes they had a very impressive series, but they did not play New Zealand, having said that against South Africa they looked the real deal, Scotland beat Argentina and Tonga, and lost to a 2nd New Zealand side. So, this has got me thinking, if any team gets parity with the English forwards they stand a chance of beating them.

Now after what I have watched over the Autumn, I cannot see anything between England, Ireland and Wales. It will be a one two three in what ever order, and seeing as Wales has Ireland and England at Cardiff, if Wales beat England first up then I can see us winning the 6N, the game out in Paris will then become very important for us. Do I think it will have any bearing on the WC, no. There is still another 8 months to go for the WC and anything can happen up until then.

So to summarise, if Wales beat England first up, we could win the 6N, if we lose, then it will be a long end to the Winter for us. But should we win, look out everybody else.

aren't wales a bit thin on the ground squad wise vs say england and ireland ?

for example what is your back up 15 ?

FecklessRogue wrote:Ireland may have a better chance of a Slam on uneven years because they have England and France at home. But they actually have less of a chance of taking the title on points difference with four wins. Since they don't have three home games to rack up points like they did last year. I don't think a Slam is likely so I don't think Ireland will retain the title.

When talking about the significance of home/away you also have to consider the bizarre statistics between Wales and Ireland which suggest the away team should be favourite's.

Thats true actually good point. If we want to win the championship it will probably have to be a slam.

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, lets take some perspective on this, England forwards did look good, but they still lost against New Zealand and South Africa, and they beat the Aussies, but anybody's pack can look good against that lot, what this proves to me is, a side with a good pack, can beat England, and I am not suggesting that they WILL beat England, but the European sides do have decent packs so if they front up there could be trouble for England, Wales on the other hand lost to Australia, although they out scroed them in tries, and we lost in the last ten minutes to the All Blacks, not in one game though did our pack look in trouble, but we need to learn the composure of the other teams.

Ireland, yes they had a very impressive series, but they did not play New Zealand, having said that against South Africa they looked the real deal, Scotland beat Argentina and Tonga, and lost to a 2nd New Zealand side. So, this has got me thinking, if any team gets parity with the English forwards they stand a chance of beating them.

Now after what I have watched over the Autumn, I cannot see anything between England, Ireland and Wales. It will be a one two three in what ever order, and seeing as Wales has Ireland and England at Cardiff, if Wales beat England first up then I can see us winning the 6N, the game out in Paris will then become very important for us. Do I think it will have any bearing on the WC, no. There is still another 8 months to go for the WC and anything can happen up until then.

So to summarise, if Wales beat England first up, we could win the 6N, if we lose, then it will be a long end to the Winter for us. But should we win, look out everybody else.

aren't wales a bit thin on the ground squad wise vs say england and ireland ?

for example what is your back up 15 ?

FullPenny?
Twopence?
Fiftypence?

Lorddowlais and The Saints Wales weren't close to beating the ABs - fighting hard for 60 minutes isn't good enough - you ran out of steam. Wales threw the kitchen sink at the ABs but the ABs just went up another gear as Wales faded in the final quarter. Welsh players looked knackered, the ABs in comparison looked relatively fresh IMO.

Same against the Aussies. The Aussies weren't quite as ruthless as the ABs but they certainly finished the game as the stronger side.

In neither match did I feel that Wales were going to win because they just didn't seem to have that extra gear/ability to close the match out - nothing left in the tank.

England at least play for 80 minutes.

England do hold one advantage in next year's 6 nations - they have beaten Ireland in their last 4 encounters.

Managed to get the Welsh monkey off their back by beating Wales last time round though millennium stadium is a tougher prospect.

I know some fans think records mean nothing -I disagree.

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, lets take some perspective on this, England forwards did look good, but they still lost against New Zealand and South Africa, and they beat the Aussies, but anybody's pack can look good against that lot, what this proves to me is, a side with a good pack, can beat England, and I am not suggesting that they WILL beat England, but the European sides do have decent packs so if they front up there could be trouble for England, Wales on the other hand lost to Australia, although they out scroed them in tries, and we lost in the last ten minutes to the All Blacks, not in one game though did our pack look in trouble, but we need to learn the composure of the other teams.

Ireland, yes they had a very impressive series, but they did not play New Zealand, having said that against South Africa they looked the real deal, Scotland beat Argentina and Tonga, and lost to a 2nd New Zealand side. So, this has got me thinking, if any team gets parity with the English forwards they stand a chance of beating them.

Now after what I have watched over the Autumn, I cannot see anything between England, Ireland and Wales. It will be a one two three in what ever order, and seeing as Wales has Ireland and England at Cardiff, if Wales beat England first up then I can see us winning the 6N, the game out in Paris will then become very important for us. Do I think it will have any bearing on the WC, no. There is still another 8 months to go for the WC and anything can happen up until then.

So to summarise, if Wales beat England first up, we could win the 6N, if we lose, then it will be a long end to the Winter for us. But should we win, look out everybody else.

aren't wales a bit thin on the ground squad wise vs say england and ireland ?

for example what is your back up 15 ?

At 15 we have:-

Leigh Halfpenny
Liam Williams

not far behind:-

Dan Evans
Tom Prydie

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais and The Saints Wales weren't close to beating the ABs - fighting hard for 60 minutes isn't good enough - you ran out of steam. Wales threw the kitchen sink at the ABs but the ABs just went up another gear as Wales faded in the final quarter. Welsh players looked knackered, the ABs in comparison looked relatively fresh IMO.

Same against the Aussies. The Aussies weren't quite as ruthless as the ABs but they certainly finished the game as the stronger side.

In neither match did I feel that Wales were going to win because they just didn't seem to have that extra gear/ability to close the match out - nothing left in the tank.

England at least play for 80 minutes.

England do hold one advantage in next year's 6 nations - they have beaten Ireland in their last  4 encounters.

Managed to get the Welsh monkey off their back by beating Wales last time round though millennium stadium is a tougher prospect.

I know some fans think records mean nothing -I disagree.

I think in the matches vs Australia and New Zealand our bench was not as strong as the oppositions and that cost us dearly in the last quarter. We were depleted in options by injury.

Gareth Davies and Scott Williams would have been two players who were unavailable. Form being another factor Adam Jones was omitted from the squad, but has been finding much better form over the last few weeks would have been a better impact player from the bench too. Especially when we needed a drop goal kicker..

That said the impact of introducing players like Slade, Genia etc who are not just classy players, but experienced Internationals as well, made a big difference in the closing stages.

Hopefully wales will not have those issues come the next international matches. With Gareth Davies recovering fitness and players like Adam Jones now finding their form.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais and The Saints Wales weren't close to beating the ABs - fighting hard for 60 minutes isn't good enough - you ran out of steam. Wales threw the kitchen sink at the ABs but the ABs just went up another gear as Wales faded in the final quarter. Welsh players looked knackered, the ABs in comparison looked relatively fresh IMO.

Granted, New Zealand went up a gear in the last ten minutes, but they did not even have to do that against England, the scorline was very flattering in the England V All Blacks game, with ten minutes to go we were beating the All Blacks, but that last ten minutes shows the difference between them and any other side if you ask me.

beshocked wrote:
I know some fans think records mean nothing -I disagree.

So did SA and the ABs

maestegmafia wrote:
Adam Jones was omitted from the squad, but has been finding much better form over the last few weeks would have been a better impact player from the bench too. Especially when we needed a drop goal kicker..

almost missed that

I think Ireland will win. By far the smartest team in the NH and the team most capable to adapting to circumstance and conditions. Both Wales and England are good physical sides, but both lack in the top two inches as rugby teams. I also think that Lancaster has lost focus as a selector - this AI series reminded me very much of the muddled thought processes under Ashton and Johnson. England lack clarity of purpose. For Wales the opposite is true. Gatland is a very focused coach who knows exactly what he wants and pursues it decisively and relentlessly. The problem is the lack of adjustment within that thought process, which has lead Wales to be predictable. There's something quite South African about Wales. You know what's coming, the question is whether you can stop it. The smart SH sides (and in my view Ireland) can, teams like Italy and Scotland can't. Whether England can in Cardiff is the million dollar question. I personally think Wales will win that contest, but will finish second overall to Ireland, with England third. Scotland's "victory" will be to finish above France in my view (I think we'll start with a bang, beating them in Paris, only to fade losing the last two fixtures to England and Ireland), with France shading Italy to the Wooden Spoon.

So my prediction:

Ireland
Wales
England
Scotland
France
Italy

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, lets take some perspective on this, England forwards did look good, but they still lost against New Zealand and South Africa, and they beat the Aussies, but anybody's pack can look good against that lot, what this proves to me is, a side with a good pack, can beat England, and I am not suggesting that they WILL beat England, but the European sides do have decent packs so if they front up there could be trouble for England, Wales on the other hand lost to Australia, although they out scroed them in tries, and we lost in the last ten minutes to the All Blacks, not in one game though did our pack look in trouble, but we need to learn the composure of the other teams.

Ireland, yes they had a very impressive series, but they did not play New Zealand, having said that against South Africa they looked the real deal, Scotland beat Argentina and Tonga, and lost to a 2nd New Zealand side. So, this has got me thinking, if any team gets parity with the English forwards they stand a chance of beating them.

Now after what I have watched over the Autumn, I cannot see anything between England, Ireland and Wales. It will be a one two three in what ever order, and seeing as Wales has Ireland and England at Cardiff, if Wales beat England first up then I can see us winning the 6N, the game out in Paris will then become very important for us. Do I think it will have any bearing on the WC, no. There is still another 8 months to go for the WC and anything can happen up until then.

So to summarise, if Wales beat England first up, we could win the 6N, if we lose, then it will be a long end to the Winter for us. But should we win, look out everybody else.

aren't wales a bit thin on the ground squad wise vs say england and ireland ?

for example what is your back up 15 ?

At 15 we have:-

Leigh Halfpenny
Liam Williams

not far behind:-

Dan Evans
Tom Prydie

no i mean backup first 15 matey boy

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, lets take some perspective on this, England forwards did look good, but they still lost against New Zealand and South Africa, and they beat the Aussies, but anybody's pack can look good against that lot, what this proves to me is, a side with a good pack, can beat England, and I am not suggesting that they WILL beat England, but the European sides do have decent packs so if they front up there could be trouble for England, Wales on the other hand lost to Australia, although they out scroed them in tries, and we lost in the last ten minutes to the All Blacks, not in one game though did our pack look in trouble, but we need to learn the composure of the other teams.

Ireland, yes they had a very impressive series, but they did not play New Zealand, having said that against South Africa they looked the real deal, Scotland beat Argentina and Tonga, and lost to a 2nd New Zealand side. So, this has got me thinking, if any team gets parity with the English forwards they stand a chance of beating them.

Now after what I have watched over the Autumn, I cannot see anything between England, Ireland and Wales. It will be a one two three in what ever order, and seeing as Wales has Ireland and England at Cardiff, if Wales beat England first up then I can see us winning the 6N, the game out in Paris will then become very important for us. Do I think it will have any bearing on the WC, no. There is still another 8 months to go for the WC and anything can happen up until then.

So to summarise, if Wales beat England first up, we could win the 6N, if we lose, then it will be a long end to the Winter for us. But should we win, look out everybody else.

aren't wales a bit thin on the ground squad wise vs say england and ireland ?

for example what is your back up 15 ?

At 15 we have:-

Leigh Halfpenny
Liam Williams

not far behind:-

Dan Evans
Tom Prydie

LD,

Not sure I agree with that in the context of them not being far behind, I think Williams and Halfpenny are considerably ahead of the other two.

Lorddowlais it wasn't the last 10. it was the last 20.

it's largely irrelevant whether Wales were leading in the 60th minute or not because there was another 20 minutes to go which NZ used to ruthlessly crush Wales.

NZ's tactics worked perfectly - let the Welsh boys huff and puff for 60 minutes then pounce in the last quarter of the game.

I guess you have to ask the question - would you rather lose like Wales did or like England did. Personally I prefer the latter.

Yes you could argue the scoreline flattered England but it wasn't a thumping like Wales-NZ.

Comfort wrote:South Africa - We finally saw variation in the play, Roberts used as a decoy, the ball going through the hands and smart tactical kicking from the midfield. This came as a result of having a 9 holding the defence and gving the 10 time, and the 10 making the right decisions with decent execution.

The tactical kicking on the day we very well executed, those little chips and dinks in behind the defence was very well executed.

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, lets take some perspective on this, England forwards did look good, but they still lost against New Zealand and South Africa, and they beat the Aussies, but anybody's pack can look good against that lot, what this proves to me is, a side with a good pack, can beat England, and I am not suggesting that they WILL beat England, but the European sides do have decent packs so if they front up there could be trouble for England, Wales on the other hand lost to Australia, although they out scroed them in tries, and we lost in the last ten minutes to the All Blacks, not in one game though did our pack look in trouble, but we need to learn the composure of the other teams.

Ireland, yes they had a very impressive series, but they did not play New Zealand, having said that against South Africa they looked the real deal, Scotland beat Argentina and Tonga, and lost to a 2nd New Zealand side. So, this has got me thinking, if any team gets parity with the English forwards they stand a chance of beating them.

Now after what I have watched over the Autumn, I cannot see anything between England, Ireland and Wales. It will be a one two three in what ever order, and seeing as Wales has Ireland and England at Cardiff, if Wales beat England first up then I can see us winning the 6N, the game out in Paris will then become very important for us. Do I think it will have any bearing on the WC, no. There is still another 8 months to go for the WC and anything can happen up until then.

So to summarise, if Wales beat England first up, we could win the 6N, if we lose, then it will be a long end to the Winter for us. But should we win, look out everybody else.

aren't wales a bit thin on the ground squad wise vs say england and ireland ?

for example what is your back up 15 ?

At 15 we have:-

Leigh Halfpenny
Liam Williams

not far behind:-

Dan Evans
Tom Prydie

no i mean backup first 15 matey boy

Ok, a backup 15 we might struggle, but what team on this planet has a full fifteen as good as their forst team, we have some decent replacements when we are all fully fit.

Lose head

Gethin Jenkins
Paul James
Ryan Bevington

Tight Head

Adam Jones
Samson Lee
Rhodri Jones

Hooker

Richard Hibbard
Ken Owens
Scott Baldwin

2nd Row

Alyn Wyn Jones
Jake Ball
Ian Evans
Bradley Davies
Luke Charteris

Flankers

Sam Warburton
Dan Lydiate
Justin Tuperic
James King
Aaron Shingler

No. 8

Taulupe Faletua
Dan Baker
Rory Pitman

Scrum Half

Rhys Webb
Gareth Davies
Lloyd Williams
Mike Phillips

No.10

Dan Biggar
Rhys Priestland
Rhys Patchell
Gareth Anscombe

Centers

Jamie Roberts
Johnathan Davies
Scott Williams
Cory Allen
Ashley Beck

Wings

George North
Alex Cuthbert
Harry Robinson
Jamie Smith
Eli Walker

Fullbacks

Liam Williams
Leigh Halfpenny
Dan Evans
Tom Prydie


So there is some depth there, but not as much as I would like, especially on the wings and in the center.

Biltong wrote:

Comfort wrote:South Africa - We finally saw variation in the play, Roberts used as a decoy, the ball going through the hands and smart tactical kicking from the midfield. This came as a result of having a 9 holding the defence and gving the 10 time, and the 10 making the right decisions with decent execution.

The tactical kicking on the day we very well executed, those little chips and dinks in behind the defence was very well executed.

Gatland said he was watching how Ireland worked it.

So that's our weakness now. Joe has become the Go To man on bloody tactics. Then everyone says: 'Oh we always knew that was the way to do it'
I hope Joe saves some new tactics exclusively for us for next year. It's a long one!

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais it wasn't the last 10. it was the last 20.

Wales were winning with ten minutes to go, so it was the last ten, thank you very much, then what killed us was, our bench was nowhere near the qlty of the AllBlacks bench, and we were not as fit as them.

beshocked wrote:Yes you could argue the scoreline flattered England but it wasn't a thumping like Wales-NZ..

The scorline flattered the AllBlacks in our game as well if you ask me, at least wew were in the game with them, England were never anywhere near the AllBlacks in any part of the game.

Clearly the were LD.

LordDowlais wrote:England were never anywhere near the AllBlacks in any part of the game.

How come England scored first, were winning at half time, and it took until the 71st minute for NZ to move more than one score ahead at 24-14 if we were no where near?

At no point am I suggesting England were better than the All Blacks or making excuses, but to say we were no where near is wrong.

Wales failure in the New Zealand game (where it was won and lost for me) was a lack of confidence in their ball retention. They simply weren't patient and just kept inviting the All blacks onto them, thats somethign you simply dont do to a team that smart.

Its been stated a few times but because it is a huge factor, it takes more effort to defend than to attack, we were defending for the majority of the game, Gatland (and Hammett more recently) has talked about the difference in step up from regional/SR rugby to test level. New Zealand waited for fatigue to set in and took advantage, not only physical fatigue but mental too. A smart ruthless team that always look to exploit teams in the last quarter, how many times have we seen it to a lesser extent?

Against South Africa Wales were smarter, kept the ball more than against New Zealand and kicked a whole lot better. Admitedly the South Africans were asking less questions (more of themselves truth be told) but the gameplan wasnt to defend for the whole game like we did against New Zealand.

ps, Wales lose 5 tries to 1 and its a narrow loss? I have no idea. England were clearly competitve against NZ, as were Wales, despite the difference in philosophy and execution. bicker bicker yall!

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Comfort wrote:South Africa - We finally saw variation in the play, Roberts used as a decoy, the ball going through the hands and smart tactical kicking from the midfield. This came as a result of having a 9 holding the defence and gving the 10 time, and the 10 making the right decisions with decent execution.

The tactical kicking on the day we very well executed, those little chips and dinks in behind the defence was very well executed.

Gatland said he was watching how Ireland worked it.

So that's our weakness now.  Joe has become the Go To man on bloody tactics.  Then everyone says: 'Oh we always knew that was the way to do it'
I hope Joe saves some new tactics exclusively for us for next year.  It's a long one!

I can never get that, the All Blacks have been doing for about 4 years now, how long does it take coaches (including our own) to see it works?