ERCC Round 3, Ulster vs Scarlets

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday, 7 December
Venue: Ravenhill, Belfast
Kick-off: 19:45 GMT
Referee: Luke Pearce (England)

Ulster

15 Louis Ludik
14 Tommy Bowe
13 Darren Cave
12 Stuart Olding
11 Craig Gilroy
10 Ian Humphreys
9 Ruan Pienaar

1 Callum Black
2 Rory Best (capt)
3 Wiehahn Herbst
4 Dan Tuohy
5 Franco van der Merwe
6 Robbie Diack
7 Roger Wilson
8 Nick Williams

16 Rob Herring, 17 Andy Warwick, 18 Declan Fitzpatrick, 19 Alan O’Connor, 20 Clive Ross, 21 Paul Marshall, 22 Stuart McCloskey, 23 Michael Allen

Scarlets

15 Liam Williams
14 Harry Robinson
13 Regan King
12 Scott Williams (capt)
11 Michael Tagicakibau
10 Rhys Priestland
9 Aled Davies

1 Rob Evans
2 Emyr Phillips
3 Samson Lee
4 Jake Ball
5 Johan Snyman
6 Aaron Shingler
7 James Davies
8 Rory Pitman

16 Kirby Myhill, 17 Phil John, 18 Rhodri Jones, 19 George Earle, 20 Lewis Rawlins, 21 Rhodri Williams, 22 Steven Shingler, 23 Gareth Owen

Yeah, Ulster players are to blame for Liam Williams lack of discipline. Fair enough. Don't think I'll be bothering making a thread for next weeks game.

Notch wrote:Yeah, Ulster players are to blame for Liam Williams lack of discipline. Fair enough. Don't think I'll be bothering making a thread for next weeks game.

To be honest mate, I wouldn't bother making or allowing any Scarlets threads at all, they all decend to 'Liam Williams is a naughty boy' threads. And to be fair if people try to counter it, we just get sarcastic, smart-reared answers. We get shown FACTS, but then when we show counter-FACTS we just get more smart-rear answers.

Anyway, I think you will be wanting to avoid a thread on next weeks game, as there will be retribution

Maybe you should counter those arguments with facts showing how disciplined LW is rather than just trying to show that other people are ill disciplined too or that it is all the fault of the team he is playing against, or their supporters or the home crowd or the ref.

And maybe you should not call other posters names.

MrsP wrote:And maybe you should not call other posters names..

Who has been calling names ?

Also, I have used facts, why is it ok for you to use a fact about Liam's behaviour, which we all know is borderline, and we cannot use a fact to show that Ulster wind players up, and have badly behaved players themselves ?

Can't we just all agree that Liam Williams is a dirty bugger and all Ulster players (of all time) are punchable?

BTW Is it true that Chris Ashton is moving to Ulster?

LordDowlais wrote:

MrsP wrote:And maybe you should not call other posters names..

Who has been calling names ?

Also, I have used facts, why is it ok for you to use a fact about Liam's behaviour, which we all know is borderline, and we cannot use a fact to show that Ulster wind players up, and have badly behaved players themselves ?

No-one doubts that. We have pointed out we had a player once who was worse than him but we don't have players who are as bad as him right now. You're responding to an argument no-one is making.

We're not whiter than white, we have nothing to be ashamed of in terms of discipline but we're not saints. Your perception we are saying that we are somehow better than others is not accurate.

HammerofThunor wrote:Can't we just all agree that Liam Williams is a dirty bugger and all Ulster players (of all time) are punchable?

BTW Is it true that Chris Ashton is moving to Ulster?

Jeezus, I would have to reconsider my season ticket. I couldn't take seeing that swan dive from one of ours

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

MrsP wrote:That is some horse. Is it high because it is standing on the soap box or because it is a particularily tall horse??

I have never seen a horse on a soap box, with or without an Ulster supporter on it.

As an Ulster supporter it is frustrating seeing our players give away penalties.

I am not sure that saying a single player is more disciplined than an entire club full of players is much of a recommendation but, as I said, LW is a very good player and any team he is in is less effective when he is on the naughty step. If I was a Scarlet supporter I'd rather he sorted his discipline.

But if you were a Scarlets supporter, you would actually find yourself having to defend the lad from gobshoites constantly running him down, over-exaggerating his flaws, and still banging on about poor Saint Trimble being assaulted by him.

I didn't mean you LD.

And you can use all the examples of Ulster indiscipline you can find but it does not change the facts of LW's indiscipline. No one is saying that LW is the only ill disciplined player in rugby. I am discussing how his indiscipline effected the match on Saturday. If you don't feel it had any baring then fine, say so. I am sure that Trevor Brennan had no baring on the match.

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Can't we just all agree that Liam Williams is a dirty bugger and all Ulster players (of all time) are punchable?

BTW Is it true that Chris Ashton is moving to Ulster?

Jeezus, I would have to reconsider my season ticket. I couldn't take seeing that swan dive from one of ours

Just organise a pre-season warm up against Scarlets and Williams will take him out for you. Ulster AND Chris Ashton?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Can't we just all agree that Liam Williams is a dirty bugger and all Ulster players (of all time) are punchable?

BTW Is it true that Chris Ashton is moving to Ulster?

Jeezus, I would have to reconsider my season ticket. I couldn't take seeing that swan dive from one of ours

Just organise a pre-season warm up against Scarlets and Williams will take him out for you. Ulster AND Chris Ashton?

I can see it now- Felon Armitage, Chris Ashton and Liam Williams in the same back three. I'm getting goosebumps.

Can't believe what this thread has decended into, so will try to change it

how about Bowe played 139 zero cards, that is a great record

MrsP wrote:Maybe you should counter those arguments with facts showing how disciplined LW is rather than just trying to show that other people are ill disciplined too or that it is all the fault of the team he is playing against, or their supporters or the home crowd or the ref.

And maybe you should not call other posters names.

Right....Counter-Fact was that Liam has had 7 yellows, and that 4 of those were against Ulster. I suggested that there is a chance that Ulster may have the skill of getting inside his head.

I also said that if you were a scarlets fan you would find yourself having to defend your man from gobshoites running him down. I did not however call you or any other poster that directly, however if you decided that the cap fits, well feel free to wear it my friend.

No, I do not think it fits at all. I am glad to know that you were not referring to any posters on here.

I don't see how pointing out that LW has had a lot of YCs strengthens your argument but have it your own way. Just don't complain the next time his indiscipline losses you a match.

MrsP wrote:No, I do not think it fits at all. I am glad to know that you were not referring to any posters on here.

I don't see how pointing out that LW has had a lot of YCs strengthens your argument but have it your own way. Just don't complain the next time his indiscipline losses you a match.

And dont you concern yourself with it either.

I see, only certain posters are allowed to express an opinion on this matter or discuss it.

Nice.

MrsP wrote:No, I do not think it fits at all. I am glad to know that you were not referring to any posters on here.

I don't see how pointing out that LW has had a lot of YCs strengthens your argument but have it your own way. Just don't complain the next time his indiscipline losses you a match.

If Ulster players are expert WUMS and can get Williams wound up enough for a yellow (all his fault as long as they were legal), but it rarely happens against other teams it could warp your perception of the player, especially as I imagine you seem more of Scarlets when they play Ulster than when they play other sides. It's got a fancy name that I can't remember at the minute.

I don't know if he is dirty or not (there are a lot of players out there that put in little cheap shots and never get called on it).

Well, I'm not sure if either of us should be discussing this as neither of us are on the "allowed to discuss LW" list but I do agree that will have seen him in action against Ulster and Ireland than against other sides.
I have read the things that Welsh fans have written about his lack of self control though and I don't think it is a problem that is limited to his matches against Ulster.

MrsP wrote:No, I do not think it fits at all. I am glad to know that you were not referring to any posters on here.

I don't see how pointing out that LW has had a lot of YCs strengthens your argument but have it your own way. Just don't complain the next time his indiscipline losses you a match.

You don't see how his discipline record is pretty good if you take away the cards against Ulster? You can not see that the lad has picked up over half his yellow cards against one side, is a counter argument? Are you being serious, or are you enjoying watching me slowly lose my cool (you don't have shares in Dell? as my monitor is near being thrown across the room).

I am saying Liam Williams does appear to have issues with Ulster, the number of cards againt them, in comparision to the number of cards against other sides, backs that up. I have said I would not play him in Ulster until his perceived poor discipline has been cleared up. I have given you counter arguments, that you sweep under the carpet, or fail to understand. I have even agreed to a point that I would not field him in Ulster, as his discipline does appear an issue against THEM in particular.

Other than saying 'Yes your right, of course, and I am wrong an know nothing', I am not sure what you want me to say.

Well, we could just agree to disagree without falling out or breaking anything? Does every discussion have to end in agreement or name calling? Are they the only possible outcomes?

And I do understand the point you are making I just don't agree with it.

For the sake of your monitor I will leave you to it.

HammerofThunor wrote:

MrsP wrote:No, I do not think it fits at all. I am glad to know that you were not referring to any posters on here.

I don't see how pointing out that LW has had a lot of YCs strengthens your argument but have it your own way. Just don't complain the next time his indiscipline losses you a match.

If Ulster players are expert WUMS and can get Williams wound up enough for a yellow (all his fault as long as they were legal), but it rarely happens against other teams it could warp your perception of the player, especially as I imagine you seem more of Scarlets when they play Ulster than when they play other sides. It's got a fancy name that I can't remember at the minute.

I don't know if he is dirty or not (there are a lot of players out there that put in little cheap shots and never get called on it).

That is a fact that I have pointed out throughout this argument Hammer, Liam Williams is not a one off incident against Ulster, they have incidents happening all the time, more than any other team in the Pro12 this season, yes I agree that Liam Williams can be a little bit of a tw@t on times, and sometimes his neck does need winding in, but as SS has been saying, three quarters of his cards have come against Ulster, this is not a coincidence, and I find it strange that the Ulster fans on here only want to discuss Liam being a pillock in the last few games against them, but will not discuss the part their team play in it as well. As I have said, there is always an "incident" this season when Ulster are playing.

Ah well second attempt to move this on from LW's indicipline

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30377857

Backs Stuart Olding (concussion) and Stuart McCloskey (elbow) are out along with forwards Wiehahn Herbst and Nick Williams, who have hamstring injuries. Lock Franco van der Merwe is also a major doubt.

Looks like Marshall is coming back to fitness just in the nick of time.

L Ludik; T Bowe, D Cave, Marshall, C Gilroy, I Humphreys, R Pienaar; C Black, R Best (capt), Fitzpatrick, D Tuohy, A O'Connor, R Diack, C Ross, R Wilson.

Is Payne back training?
Back row is thread bare, McComish on the bench?

Wind your neck in LD. Many games that don't involve Ulster have 'incidents', including those between the regions. Citing Brennan in support of Ulster wrongdoing is nonsense.

I've grown to like Williams He has a reputation as a cheap shot, but I think he has been trying to turn that around the last few months, and if that's true then I can only respect him for that. It's very easy to pick up a bad reputation, and very difficult to shake it off.

The yellow card incident was a bit silly, and although the yellow card was just about deserved it wasn't a cheap shot.

Is there any evidence that Ulster players are trying to get inside Williams head? Even if there is, so what? It's up to him to deal with it appropriately, and not let himself, and his team down. In fact, I hope they were

Munchkin wrote:Wind your neck in LD

So becuase I have pointed out the other side of the argument then I need to wind my neck in ?

Go in the interweb and check, there are numerous incidents regarding Ulster so far this season, more so than any other team, I have posted some earlier on this very thread, we all know what Liam is like, but it is no coincidence that most of his indicipline is against Ulster.

Anyway, I'm finished with this, let's talk about next weeks game like Kingshu is trying to do.

Kingshu wrote:Ah well second attempt to move this on from LW's indicipline

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30377857

Backs Stuart Olding (concussion) and Stuart McCloskey (elbow) are out along with forwards Wiehahn Herbst and Nick Williams, who have hamstring injuries. Lock Franco van der Merwe is also a major doubt.

Looks like Marshall is coming back to fitness just in the nick of time.

L Ludik; T Bowe, D Cave, Marshall, C Gilroy, I Humphreys, R Pienaar; C Black, R Best (capt), Fitzpatrick, D Tuohy, A O'Connor, R Diack, C Ross, R Wilson.

Is Payne back training?
Back row is thread bare, McComish on the bench?

Looks like James Davies is definitely out, and 'he who's name shall not be mentioned' is likely to be fit, and fingers cross so will John Barclay. Other than that I can't see much change for the Scarlets, unless this Hadleigh Parkes fellow has had enough time with the camp to learn the plays etc, in which case maybe he will start and Reggie will be on the bench (lets face it, he was anonymous on Saturday).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:and 'he who's name shall not be mentioned' is likely to be fit

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Wind your neck in LD

So becuase I have pointed out the other side of the argument then I need to wind my neck in ?

Go in the interweb and check, there are numerous incidents regarding Ulster so far this season, more so than any other team, I have posted some earlier on this very thread, we all know what Liam is like, but it is no coincidence that most of his indicipline is against Ulster.

I don't need to check. I haven't missed an Ulster game in years. The thing is, I have seen many other games, and incidents are part, and parcel, of the game. I like a bit of niggle in a game. Sometimes a bit of niggle is required to inject some energy into a team. Sometimes it helps to get a mental edge over the opposition. I like the big hits, the bullying, and the trying to get under the skin of the opposition. So long as it's within the confines of the law.

LD - was going to say Vordam.... but couldn't mention his name.

Munchkin - I think we all love an 'enforcer' (gosh I hate that term) in the second row, and it is for exactly the reasons you gave. I think the problem is that in the second row it is almost par for the course to get carded/banned, and it is widely accepted as such. Where as an 'enforcer' in the backs is unheard of......

I know I wanted to move on, but just to point out to the accusers of Ulster being a Dirty team.

2012-13 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby
2013-14 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby + Connacht Rugby

Kingshu wrote:I know I wanted to move on, but just to point out to the accusers of Ulster being a Dirty team.

2012-13 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby
2013-14 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby + Connacht Rugby

2011-12 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Scarlets

Munchkin wrote:Sometimes it helps to get a mental edge over the opposition

I have no problems with this, as long as people take it into consideration when they get on their high horses when talking about individual players.

This was unpunished on Saturday night. "Play on". Ulster first try was a 4m forward pass too. Ulster got all the calls but it wouldn't have affected the result. Looking for a better refereeing performance this weekend.

Chunky Norwich wrote:This was unpunished on Saturday night. "Play on". Ulster first try was a 4m forward pass too. Ulster got all the calls but it wouldn't have affected the result. Looking for a better refereeing performance this weekend.

Chunky, to be fair it is the job of the home crowd to ensure that the ref makes the 50-50 (or even 60-40 against them) calls in their favour. If we can get a good crowd into the Parc and we can get a bit of chanting panto-type booing/jeering going, we should be able to get those calls.

ScarletSpiderman wrote: If we can get a good crowd into the Parc .

Current figures aren't looking good.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I know I wanted to move on, but just to point out to the accusers of Ulster being a Dirty team.

2012-13 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby
2013-14 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby + Connacht Rugby

2011-12 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Scarlets

Good it was a struggle to even find last years,
Scarlets currently 3rd Ulster about 7/8th

Anyway, their is no ill will from me, if Scarlets had won last week, I would have hoped that they would beat us in Parc y Scarlets this week and go on and qualify.

Think regional rugby would benefit from a team going on a good run.

Anyway that didn't happen and now I don't want you to beat us this weekend.

This is going to be a tough ask for Ulster, ok we won last week, but we do have some serious disadvantages this week, 4/5 starting players missing (1/3 of the team), and away from home this time.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Ulster first try was a 4m forward pass too.

Ball went backwards from Tommy but then bounced forward off Liam Williams halo.

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Ulster first try was a 4m forward pass too.

Ball went backwards from Tommy but then bounced forward off Liam Williams halo.

Yeah, no it doesn't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKrrkSoj7rk&list=UUeKhRFwF7FPEuBUa1TkBqqg#t=0m6s

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - I think we all love an 'enforcer' (gosh I hate that term) in the second row, and it is for exactly the reasons you gave.  I think the problem is that in the second row it is almost par for the course to get carded/banned, and it is widely accepted as such.  Where as an 'enforcer' in the backs is unheard of......

I get very annoyed when any of our players needlessly gets carded, and although Nick Williams seems to have taken upon himself the role as enforcer, it's not something I'm comfortable with as he comes very close to crossing the line, if not crossing it on occasion. I would much prefer someone like Henderson to pick up that mantle at some point. Someone who can intimidate, not be intimidated, has brains, and the character to remained disciplined in whatever situation.
Not many backs would intimidate a lock, or a backrow player. There's no doubting Williams courage, his passion and his aggression, but I don't see him as an enforcer. I dread to think the reaction of Nick Williams if Liam tried to bully him

Really quite stunned at what my initial post about Williams yellow cards against us has gone on to incite in this thread. Not least of all the bizarre rationalisation that rather than it being Liam Williams who is responsible for his own yellow cards it must be Ulster....

As well as this cinspiracy theoristish gem...tin foil hats at the ready.

2ndtimeround Yesterday at 1:25 pm

"Whichever way you look at it I'd like to know how one player can spend so much time been binned against just one particular team. Without the Ulster games his disciplinary record is not really any worse than anyone else's. However against Ulster the most influential player in the team for the Scarlet's gets binned constantly. Really unusual stat that one. If I ever find the time then maybe I'll do a little more research into how often other teams suffer strange sin bin stats against Ulster in comparison to against other teams."

Dodger, is it a conspiracy theory or is it a hat tip to the more 'streetwise' side?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Ah well second attempt to move this on from LW's indicipline

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30377857

Backs Stuart Olding (concussion) and Stuart McCloskey (elbow) are out along with forwards Wiehahn Herbst and Nick Williams, who have hamstring injuries. Lock Franco van der Merwe is also a major doubt.

Looks like Marshall is coming back to fitness just in the nick of time.

L Ludik; T Bowe, D Cave, Marshall, C Gilroy, I Humphreys, R Pienaar; C Black, R Best (capt), Fitzpatrick, D Tuohy, A O'Connor, R Diack, C Ross, R Wilson.

Is Payne back training?
Back row is thread bare, McComish on the bench?

Looks like James Davies is definitely out, and 'he who's name shall not be mentioned' is likely to be fit, and fingers cross so will John Barclay.  Other than that I can't see much change for the Scarlets, unless this Hadleigh Parkes fellow has had enough time with the camp to learn the plays etc, in which case maybe he will start and Reggie will be on the bench (lets face it, he was anonymous on Saturday).

from what I saw of the game James Davies looks an exciting prospect, didnt think Regan covered himself in glory either

James Davies looked great. He'll need to be a bit less obvious with the targeting of the out half. Any good back row is going to get his first hit on the 10 in late, in the tradition of the great Ray Gravell, but you can't do as dangerously and brazenly as the way he did- it'll be yellow every time. If he learns from that he won't end up falling into the same trap as... he'll be good.

But I was really impressed with the rest of his game.

Notch I think the major issues Cubby (James Davies) has to deal with are in the club house as opposed to on the pitch , which is why he took so long to break into the pro scene

Kingshu wrote:I know I wanted to move on, but just to point out to the accusers of Ulster being a Dirty team.

2012-13 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby
2013-14 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby + Connacht Rugby

That fits in really well with my earlier post that was aimed at questioning the impartiality of referee's that are required to officiate games in an environment as intimidating as Ulster, lots of mind games really, but the penalty count without researching it always seems heavily stacked in Ulster favour at home. Though I for one have never noticed them to play a particularly clean or error free game.

2ndtimeround wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I know I wanted to move on, but just to point out to the accusers of Ulster being a Dirty team.

2012-13 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby
2013-14 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby + Connacht Rugby

That fits in really well with my earlier post that was aimed at questioning the impartiality of referee's that are required to officiate games in an environment as intimidating as Ulster, lots of mind games really, but the penalty count without researching it always seems heavily stacked in Ulster favour at home. Though I for one have never noticed them to play a particularly clean or error free game.

My perception would be the opposite, it's difficult for us to get the benefit of the doubt because referees are aware of that and overcompensate in the other direction. But I am not unbiased.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This was unpunished on Saturday night. "Play on". Ulster first try was a 4m forward pass too. Ulster got all the calls but it wouldn't have affected the result. Looking for a better refereeing performance this weekend.

Chunky, to be fair it is the job of the home crowd to ensure that the ref makes the 50-50 (or even 60-40 against them) calls in their favour.  If we can get a good crowd into the Parc and we can get a bit of chanting panto-type booing/jeering going, we should be able to get those calls.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work that way at PYS due to the idiots we have in the crowd that start shouting "cheat" at the referee the 1st time he awards a penalty against, all they do is alienate the officials. How anyone thinks you can get a Ref to see things your way by calling them a cheat is beyond me. plus Llanelli will never intimidate in the way a packed stadium does in a city like Ulster.

Kingshu wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I know I wanted to move on, but just to point out to the accusers of Ulster being a Dirty team.

2012-13 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby
2013-14 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby + Connacht Rugby

2011-12 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Scarlets

Good it was a struggle to even find last years,
Scarlets currently 3rd Ulster about 7/8th

Anyway, their is no ill will from me, if Scarlets had won last week, I would have hoped that they would beat us in Parc y Scarlets this week and go on and qualify.

Think regional rugby would benefit from a team going on a good run.

Anyway that didn't happen and now I don't want you to beat us this weekend.

This is going to be a tough ask for Ulster, ok we won last week, but we do have some serious disadvantages this week, 4/5 starting players missing (1/3 of the team), and away from home this time.

At least you have an Irish referee!!!

2ndTime, your right about the cheat thing. Maybe every time their best player gets the ball we should just boo him, it works elsewhere Also, I hear the choir are going to be there again Sunday. Its good for the family atmosphere, but I guess far from intemidating. That said "who's gonna beat the Tigers..." did the trick against Leicester.

2ndtimeround wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I know I wanted to move on, but just to point out to the accusers of Ulster being a Dirty team.

2012-13 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby
2013-14 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Ulster Rugby + Connacht Rugby

2011-12 SPECSAVERS FAIRPLAY AWARD - Scarlets

Good it was a struggle to even find last years,
Scarlets currently 3rd Ulster about 7/8th

Anyway, their is no ill will from me, if Scarlets had won last week, I would have hoped that they would beat us in Parc y Scarlets this week and go on and qualify.

Think regional rugby would benefit from a team going on a good run.

Anyway that didn't happen and now I don't want you to beat us this weekend.

This is going to be a tough ask for Ulster, ok we won last week, but we do have some serious disadvantages this week, 4/5 starting players missing (1/3 of the team), and away from home this time.

At least you have an Irish referee!!!  

This one maybe

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30398575