Lists of greatest ever players.

We often see a list of the top 20/50/100 or whatever international players and in my view these lists are completely subjective and are always pulled apart as supporters fight for the right to get their own players on the list.

This often coincides with some disrespect and criticism shown towards other countries' players and between trying to sort the sensitive from the objective comments can become quite challenging.

The first question I would ask is why 20 or 50? Why stop at a certain number, where is a realistic cut off point? What is the criteria when you make a list?

For me there are only two players that is undisputedly the two best players in world rugby.

Dan Carter and Richie McCaw, put pure and simple the reason why is because the one is the best all round back I have ever seen and the other the most allround forward I have ever seen.

Both are master tacticians, they don't just have the skills to execute, but tactically they are both very astute.

I see Dan Carter as the flyhalf with no obvious weaknesses, he can defend, attack, kick, pass and knows better than any other flyhalf when to do what.

McCaw as a captain and player knows the laws of rugby better than anyone, and knows how and when to exploit them. He has an allround game can pilfer, defend, carry and again knows better than eny other when to do what.

I then have a list of players I feared to play against, whenever the team sheets are shown, the first thing I would do will be to see whether they are playing.

Such players were.

Jonah Lomu
Christian Cullen
Doug Howlett
Jeff wilson
Chris Latham
Joe Roff

The reason, because they could carve our defence to pieces.

There are a few forwards I rate highly, but I never feared them, why? Because I believe we have the best forwards in the business.

Players like Read, Thorne, Retallick etc are great players, but they don't scare me, I don't worry when I see their names on a team sheet, because in my world forwards are supposed to be monsters, and we have more monsters at home than anyone else.

So my list is short, it isn't a greatest ever list, I don't worry about rating players before Isolation, simply because I haven't seen them play. My list is about players that I thought and still think are and were brilliant rugby players, but only two are the best Without reservation.

Good post

The thing I find with these lists is that even my own subjective list will change from time to time. I also find that I rate players for different things. For example how do you compare Tana Umaga to BOD - two outstanding outside centres but different types of player. Brooke to Dallaglio, Matfield to Eales, Joost to Gregan, Cullen to Latham etc. You may also select a different side on a cold wet Irish Sunday to a hot dry Australian summer.

I agree that these lists simply are what they are, and a perfectly good way of debating away a tedious patch between Christmas and New Year!

I think with the other threads list the top ten are almost unanswerable. Some players will always stand head and shoulders above others. They are the greats of their generation.

From a Welsh perspective the one player from the NH of recent (ish) times who I hated seeing line up against was Will Greenwood, the guy was sheer class but he loved playing against us and seemed to score loads as well.

From a Scotland perspective it would have to be Jamie Noon. Pretty duff player who managed to score a hattrick against us. That's just embarrasing.

On a serious note for me it would be Cullen. He found whole new ways of ripping Scotland to shreds when he came to Murrayfield. Wonderful player.

We fear Duane Vermeulen!

If SA had played during that time Michael Jones would have been added to your list.

1995 probably makes you leave Sean Fitzpatrick - the one and only victorious series touring captain to SA - off your list.

Rugby for me is a team game. Discussing the greatest individual players is like cleaning your John Thomas after having sex. It might provide a fleeting moment of pleasure but it misses entirely the point of how it came to be there.

Greatest player lists are also just nationalistic, hemisphere based, opinon based. Means nothing.

Ask what YOUR favourite players are...then that's different.

I personally list players like Norm Hadley, Gary Armstrong amongst my favourites ever...not ones who'd make the greatest ever list...but were immense players of their generation for both their club and country.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Greatest player lists are also just nationalistic, hemisphere based, opinon based. Means nothing.

Ask what YOUR favourite players are...then that's different.

I personally list players like Norm Hadley, Gary Armstrong amongst my favourites ever...not ones who'd make the greatest ever list...but were immense players of their generation for both their club and country.

Favourite players, wow where to I start and from all different eras and Countries but one player who I have mentioned a few times and have been lucky enough to meet on several occasions is the old funbus himself.

Top bloke, great player, drinks like a fish and never says no to a photo or a chat.

I agree that McCaw and Carter stand out in the pro era as players to fear more than anyone else.

Apart from those two, as an Irish fan I fear swashbuckling French backs with great hair and magnificent sideburns more than anything.

Any list without enough Welsh players on there is just an absolute farce. That's how I judge their credibility .

FecklessRogue wrote:I agree that McCaw and Carter stand out in the pro era as players to fear more than anyone else.

Apart from those two, as an Irish fan I fear swashbuckling French backs with great hair and magnificent sideburns more than anything.

Sadly that is looking increasingly relegated to the history books!!

FecklessRogue wrote:............as an Irish fan I fear swashbuckling French backs with great hair and magnificent sideburns more than anything.

What about the French backs sucking on a cigarette at halftime?

Haven't thought that way about Carter since at least prior to 2007 because all I seem to wait for is for him to get injured, and, in all that time I have never been disappointed, so to speak. So you have to go back a long way before DC was consistently a great player. But when he was, he surely was. I wouldnt fear him next year...just wait for that injury to kick in, I'm convinced it will happen..sorry if I've jinxed though...

McCaws legend however just gets bigger and bigger, this season all the doubters were out at sxv finals time yet by years end he was back up at the top of the 7 game. He's the epitomy of that little eveready battery...just keeps going and going...

Agree that its who you know and agree with Kia re Michael Jones. SA never really got to taste the damage he could inflict on other sides on his own. The way other sides moan about McCaw was similar but in different ways. Jones was a spectacular athlete and would break open matches when you'd least expect it, either through a burst down the middle or a bone shattering tackle right when you would least want it on your team.

'Fear' for me isn't about size, for me its about any player that can put or contribute heavily to putting points on the board with relative ease. When a player always breaks the line, always kicks the goal, always takes the lineout. Those are the players I fear.

But being an AB fan that fear usually gets watered down because the feared player usually has others around them that arent so fearful, or, the AB opposite usually stems the effect of the player. Habana has wreaked havoc on the AB's so him with a bit of room is scary.

I'm not sure Vermulens is a player to be feared on his own. He's still learning the game and had a very good year. But he's still the type the AB's can look to manage better even if they haven't done a good job this year. He fell off a bit at AI's time when the Boks really needed him to step up so that's something for him next year, maintaining that consistency.

Taylorman if you made an all time All Blacks team and you had to choose between McCaw and Jones who would you pick?

Taylorman wrote:Haven't thought that way about Carter since at least prior to 2007 because all I seem to wait for is for him to get injured, and, in all that time I have never been disappointed, so to speak. So you have to go back a long way before DC was consistently a great player. But when he was, he surely was. I wouldnt fear him next year...just wait for that injury to kick in, I'm convinced it will happen..sorry if I've jinxed though...

McCaws legend however just gets bigger and bigger, this season all the doubters were out at sxv finals time yet by years end he was back up at the top of the 7 game. He's the epitomy of that little eveready battery...just keeps going and going...

Agree that its who you know and agree with Kia re Michael Jones. SA never really got to taste the damage he could inflict on other sides on his own. The way other sides moan about McCaw was similar but in different ways. Jones was a spectacular athlete and would break open matches when you'd least expect it, either through a burst down the middle or a bone shattering tackle right when you would least want it on your team.

'Fear' for me isn't about size, for me its about any player that can put or contribute heavily to putting points on the board with relative ease. When a player always breaks the line, always kicks the goal, always takes the lineout. Those are the players I fear.

But being an AB fan that fear usually gets watered down because the feared player usually has others around them that arent so fearful, or, the AB opposite usually stems the effect of the player. Habana has wreaked havoc on the AB's so him with a bit of room is scary.

I'm not sure Vermulens is a player to be feared on his own. He's still learning the game and had a very good year. But he's still the type the AB's can look to manage better even if they haven't done a good job this year. He fell off a bit at AI's time when the Boks really needed him to step up so that's something for him next year, maintaining that consistency.

Vermeulen ran 100 meters, beat 3 defenders and made two offloads, whilst making 23 tackles and missing 3 on an end of year tour. He took his share of line outs and numerous pilfers. That whilst his team sucked.

Not sure how much more superhuman you expect him to be.

He is a consistent performer but can't do it all on his own.

Vermeulen is better with Alberts playing as well, and I think he'd also thrive if SA had a better ball carrying option at lock than Matfield, who is really just running the lineout and not a whole lot else. What happened to Beckerand Kruger?

Vermeulen is becoming a bit of a marked man, much like the Beast (whose ball carrying also appears to be targeted these days).

Bekker is making his millions in Japan. Kruger is in France no?

Once Flip is back I think Matfield will return to the commentary box where he belongs.

Shame that Bekker went that way. I always thought he and Etzebeth would have made a fearsome combination.

na, bekker was a plank. Too big an ego. Literally wanted to be the man all the time and its why Matfield stayed so long and even out lasted his taller, stronger, more athletic shirt competitor.

Never ran the smartest lineout. Too easy to read.

I'm not sure an ego is always the worst thing to have for a rugby player - and you wouldn't have to have him running the lineout. SA rugby is all about power and athleticism, and having the meanest pack around, and I can't think of a more hostile combination from a physical perspective than Eztebeth and Bekker.

Easliy marked... strange that for a 6'10 guy.

He always called the ball for himself on the big moments. Easily read.

Matfield almost never takes the ball in the big moments.... not because he doesn't have the mental strength but because he is always heavily marked in those situations. Hence why Smith, Spies or Russouw always claimed the ball in the opposition 22 i.e. the decoys

As I said, he wouldn't need to call the lineout.

The Scotland lineout has been a disaster for years with Hamilton/Kellock in charge (with Ross Ford often the scapegoat at hooker), but Richie Gray started to call the lineout this season (again with Ford at hooker) and it went really well.

No reason why Etzebeth, Alberts or Vermuelen couldn't call, taking the pressure off Bekker.

IF by meaning you don`t fear other sides forwards because there not as big/heavy as
BOKs.Maybe you should skill factors as well as size/weight matter too it has always been
the case .OF two players of near equal class the bigger/heavier gets the job,in the near
future.The scrum laws will be changed again so hookers can hook and squint feeds will
be heavily penalized.THE last decent Prop fielded by the Boks as a scrummager was
OS DU RANDT!!!

Alan, everyone can scum to a certain competency, everyone can execute a line out to a certain competency, some forwards have pace, others have strength.

At this point most believe England has the best pack, why? Because they can scrum and dominate opponents, but that is one aspect of forward play.

There are no forwards other than McCaw who I would have wanted to see in a Bok jersey.

in my view, not anyone elses view we have depth at loose forwards like no other country in the world, ever.

We have historically some of the best hookers in history, same with locks. We may according to you not have world beating props, but then in general it is the most difficult position for any country to sustainably be the best at, and due to the tactics used at scrum time one prop can dominate today and be put to the sword the next.

The point is South Africa consistently has one of the best packs in world rugby, it is just the way it is.

Hi,Biltong happy new year to you,the IRB held a think tank on Scrums[for want of a better
word].Concluded that IF the Refs applied the current Scrum laws correctly it is impossible
for the ball to be hooked legally.

APPARENTALLY it seems the ball is two lengths[of the ball] far away for the feeding sides
hooker to hook the ball legally.

Because of the RWC it was decided NOT to change the laws again pre it,but afterwards
it will be addressed.

The forwards job is to create go forward ball for the backs,certain countries have forgotten this.They see tactics of milking penalties or tries by forward drives as the way to go,maybe
winning is the aim.

BUT teams WERE starting to use there backs more then started losing and going back
into there shells.

Doesnt matter how the points come.

Those SA locks for Racing Metro look pretty good too (whilst on the subject of SA locks).

Biltong wrote:Alan, everyone can scum to a certain competency, everyone can execute a line out to a certain competency, some forwards have pace, others have strength.

At this point most believe England has the best pack, why? Because they can scrum and dominate opponents, but that is one aspect of forward play.

There are no forwards other than McCaw who I would have wanted to see in a Bok jersey.

in my view, not anyone elses view we have depth at loose forwards like no other country in the world, ever.

We have historically some of the best hookers in history, same with locks. We may according to you not have world beating props, but then in general it is the most difficult position for any country to sustainably be the best at, and due to the tactics used at scrum time one prop can dominate today and be put to the sword the next.

The point is South Africa consistently has one of the best packs in world rugby, it is just the way it is.

It is certainly my view as well. The problem here for SA has always been balance, but there is an absolute goldmine of talent in the back row for South Africa. Even after a bit of poaching from other countries..

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Haven't thought that way about Carter since at least prior to 2007 because all I seem to wait for is for him to get injured, and, in all that time I have never been disappointed, so to speak. So you have to go back a long way before DC was consistently a great player. But when he was, he surely was. I wouldnt fear him next year...just wait for that injury to kick in, I'm convinced it will happen..sorry if I've jinxed though...

McCaws legend however just gets bigger and bigger, this season all the doubters were out at sxv finals time yet by years end he was back up at the top of the 7 game. He's the epitomy of that little eveready battery...just keeps going and going...

Agree that its who you know and agree with Kia re Michael Jones. SA never really got to taste the damage he could inflict on other sides on his own. The way other sides moan about McCaw was similar but in different ways. Jones was a spectacular athlete and would break open matches when you'd least expect it, either through a burst down the middle or a bone shattering tackle right when you would least want it on your team.

'Fear' for me isn't about size, for me its about any player that can put or contribute heavily to putting points on the board with relative ease. When a player always breaks the line, always kicks the goal, always takes the lineout. Those are the players I fear.

But being an AB fan that fear usually gets watered down because the feared player usually has others around them that arent so fearful, or, the AB opposite usually stems the effect of the player. Habana has wreaked havoc on the AB's so him with a bit of room is scary.

I'm not sure Vermulens is a player to be feared on his own. He's still learning the game and had a very good year. But he's still the type the AB's can look to manage better even if they haven't done a good job this year. He fell off a bit at AI's time when the Boks really needed him to step up so that's something for him next year, maintaining that consistency.

Vermeulen ran 100 meters, beat 3 defenders and made two offloads, whilst making 23 tackles and missing 3 on an end of year tour. He took his share of line outs and numerous pilfers. That whilst his team sucked.

Not sure how much more superhuman you expect him to be.

He is a consistent performer but can't do it all on his own.

Yes but you limit to naming a narrow number of 5 players over the past 20 years or so as feared. I wouldn't put Vermulens in that league on the two very good seasons he's had. He himself says he's still learning. I don't think he's had a better career to date than Read for one thing and he needs to consolidate next year. How he goes over the next 12 months will be critical to the Boks. Agree with your statement below though. SA's loosies, particularly with Louw and Alberts both available, give SA huge depth for 2015. The ABs drop off a bit after McCaw, Read and an at times Kaino...Messam, Vito, Cane not reflecting an as strong understudy group.

FecklessRogue wrote:Taylorman if you made an all time All Blacks team and you had to choose between McCaw and Jones who would you pick?

I'd have the earlier Jones (pre argie knee injury) at 7 and the later McCaw at 6 and captain.

If I can't have both I'd have the earlier Jones at 7 if it means he would play again!. When compiling these sorts of lists Jones is the only player I know of to make two positions- 6 or 7 and if McCaw's gets 7 Jones invariably makes 6 because 'he has to be on the field'

Others would disagree obviously as time erodes one more than the other but its different when you see a player emerge in front of you. Watching rugby and playing it are two very different things.

There is a difference between strength and aerobic strength NZ forwards have strength too
but there ball skills are higher.

As Meyer said you can`t outmuscle an AB team for 80 minutes.It isn`t about my forwards
or backs is better than yours.

It`s about using your team`s strength to best advantage Nz have the balance about right.
IF OZ get a pack to match there backs they`ll rule the world again there that good.

It ISN`T just about getting the points any way that matter`s that thinking shows
NZ 40 32 I 7 v England 6 5 1 since 2011 that way of thinking is not enough you
have score tries too.

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Haven't thought that way about Carter since at least prior to 2007 because all I seem to wait for is for him to get injured, and, in all that time I have never been disappointed, so to speak. So you have to go back a long way before DC was consistently a great player. But when he was, he surely was. I wouldnt fear him next year...just wait for that injury to kick in, I'm convinced it will happen..sorry if I've jinxed though...

McCaws legend however just gets bigger and bigger, this season all the doubters were out at sxv finals time yet by years end he was back up at the top of the 7 game. He's the epitomy of that little eveready battery...just keeps going and going...

Agree that its who you know and agree with Kia re Michael Jones. SA never really got to taste the damage he could inflict on other sides on his own. The way other sides moan about McCaw was similar but in different ways. Jones was a spectacular athlete and would break open matches when you'd least expect it, either through a burst down the middle or a bone shattering tackle right when you would least want it on your team.

'Fear' for me isn't about size, for me its about any player that can put or contribute heavily to putting points on the board with relative ease. When a player always breaks the line, always kicks the goal, always takes the lineout. Those are the players I fear.

But being an AB fan that fear usually gets watered down because the feared player usually has others around them that arent so fearful, or, the AB opposite usually stems the effect of the player. Habana has wreaked havoc on the AB's so him with a bit of room is scary.

I'm not sure Vermulens is a player to be feared on his own. He's still learning the game and had a very good year. But he's still the type the AB's can look to manage better even if they haven't done a good job this year. He fell off a bit at AI's time when the Boks really needed him to step up so that's something for him next year, maintaining that consistency.

Vermeulen ran 100 meters, beat 3 defenders and made two offloads, whilst making 23 tackles and missing 3 on an end of year tour. He took his share of line outs and numerous pilfers. That whilst his team sucked.

Not sure how much more superhuman you expect him to be.

He is a consistent performer but can't do it all on his own.

Yes but you limit to naming a narrow number of 5 players over the past 20 years or so as feared. I wouldn't put Vermulens in that league on the two very good seasons he's had. He himself says he's still learning. I don't think he's had a better career to date than Read for one thing and he needs to consolidate next year. How he goes over the next 12 months will be critical to the Boks. Agree with your statement below though. SA's loosies, particularly with Louw and Alberts both available, give SA huge depth for 2015. The ABs drop off a bit after McCaw, Read and an at times Kaino...Messam, Vito, Cane not reflecting an as strong understudy group.

I haven't named any South African players on my list, only opposition player, I simply argued your point suggesting Vermeulen Vermeulen needs to be more consistent which I disagreed with.

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Haven't thought that way about Carter since at least prior to 2007 because all I seem to wait for is for him to get injured, and, in all that time I have never been disappointed, so to speak. So you have to go back a long way before DC was consistently a great player. But when he was, he surely was. I wouldnt fear him next year...just wait for that injury to kick in, I'm convinced it will happen..sorry if I've jinxed though...

McCaws legend however just gets bigger and bigger, this season all the doubters were out at sxv finals time yet by years end he was back up at the top of the 7 game. He's the epitomy of that little eveready battery...just keeps going and going...

Agree that its who you know and agree with Kia re Michael Jones. SA never really got to taste the damage he could inflict on other sides on his own. The way other sides moan about McCaw was similar but in different ways. Jones was a spectacular athlete and would break open matches when you'd least expect it, either through a burst down the middle or a bone shattering tackle right when you would least want it on your team.

'Fear' for me isn't about size, for me its about any player that can put or contribute heavily to putting points on the board with relative ease. When a player always breaks the line, always kicks the goal, always takes the lineout. Those are the players I fear.

But being an AB fan that fear usually gets watered down because the feared player usually has others around them that arent so fearful, or, the AB opposite usually stems the effect of the player. Habana has wreaked havoc on the AB's so him with a bit of room is scary.

I'm not sure Vermulens is a player to be feared on his own. He's still learning the game and had a very good year. But he's still the type the AB's can look to manage better even if they haven't done a good job this year. He fell off a bit at AI's time when the Boks really needed him to step up so that's something for him next year, maintaining that consistency.

Vermeulen ran 100 meters, beat 3 defenders and made two offloads, whilst making 23 tackles and missing 3 on an end of year tour. He took his share of line outs and numerous pilfers. That whilst his team sucked.

Not sure how much more superhuman you expect him to be.

He is a consistent performer but can't do it all on his own.

Yes but you limit to naming a narrow number of 5 players over the past 20 years or so as feared. I wouldn't put Vermulens in that league on the two very good seasons he's had. He himself says he's still learning. I don't think he's had a better career to date than Read for one thing and he needs to consolidate next year. How he goes over the next 12 months will be critical to the Boks. Agree with your statement below though. SA's loosies, particularly with Louw and Alberts both available, give SA huge depth for 2015. The ABs drop off a bit after McCaw, Read and an at times Kaino...Messam, Vito, Cane not reflecting an as strong understudy group.

I haven't named any South African players on my list, only opposition player, I simply argued your point suggesting Vermeulen Vermeulen needs to be more consistent which I disagreed with.

okay...didn't really notice his form in the AI's myself, just went with the common conception that he fell off his normal levels enough to knock him off the player of the year votes but we know how flawed all that is. Saw a good interview with him and I think he's going to get better than he is now so i think he's still on the way up as a player, destined for greatness.

emack2 wrote:There is a difference between strength and aerobic strength  NZ forwards have strength too
but there ball skills are higher.

As Meyer said you can`t outmuscle an AB team for 80 minutes.It isn`t about my forwards
or backs is better than yours.

It`s about using your team`s strength to best advantage Nz have the balance about right.
IF OZ get a pack to match there backs they`ll rule the world again there that good.

It ISN`T just about getting the points any way that matter`s that thinking shows
NZ 40 32 I 7 v England 6 5 1 since 2011 that way of thinking is not enough you
have score tries too.

It's completely about getting points any way! You're completely right that it's the team that matters not just the forwards, not just the backs. NZ have the better balance for all teams but you're pack is only about 3rd best for me. The fact that the points or tries can come about through a driving maul or a penalty try matter not a jot. As for the forwards skills maybe NZ ruled alone for many years but the vast amount of teams forwards can 'play' a bit now.

Out of interest 7.5, how would you rank the top 5 forwards packs and the top 5 backlines?

I'm keeping it to international teams ebop, descending order.

Forwards for me: Eng, SA, NZ, Wales, Ireland

Backs: NZ, Aus, Ireland, SA, Wales.

On any given day France could be included in both, but those days where they were inconsistent is fading to just consistently below par. Awful lot of injuries going around so just going on what I've seen in the last year or so.

Thanks 7.5. Some would have the Wallabies backs on top but I'm not sure if this is still the consensus. I know it doesn't work like this in real life and it's just your opinion but your ranks kind of mirror how the teams fall out in the rankings (generally) and how close it is up at the pointy end. No surprise really but it's probably the ABs backline being slightly better than the rest and our forwards being less slightly worse than the best that makes the small difference. I still think our forwards generally have the edge on skills and enterprise over teams. Our forwards aren't brutes but they still like to mix it. Anyways, it's getting toight up there, we're looking over our shoulders you could say.

Hopefully you're looking over your shoulders but just as the rest show the promise to push on they've stuttered. Should make for a good 2015 and world cup though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm keeping it to international teams ebop, descending order.

Forwards for me: Eng, SA, NZ, Wales, Ireland

Backs: NZ, Aus, Ireland, SA, Wales.

On any given day France could be included in both, but those days where they were inconsistent is fading to just consistently below par. Awful lot of injuries going around so just going on what I've seen in the last year or so.

Not sure I would give Ireland's backline the edge over ours.

I wouldn't consider Wales' forwards better than Ireland's either on the whole.

Fair enough to both. Personally I think Irelands backs are a shade better than their forwards and will get better. I don't think the Welsh have had a premium year but I would still say their pack is formidable especially with James and Lee getting more game time. The Irish have a decent pack but I don't really rate their front five as anything special barring Healy and an ageing O'Connell. Ireland have obviously shown they are a very good team this year. Personally I think the teams are generally close to each other bar the England backs who are currently coming out about 8th as we can't seem to play the same combos for more than 2 games in a row!

Bit harsh on Toner. He had a few blips but was probably one of Ireland's better forward players this year. Ireland doesnt have the best front row in world rugby but probably at least has two international class players in each of the front row positions with others pushing for inclusion so it isn't too bad. Also we have very strong back rowers.

Wales has very good forwards but Id say we would be similar enough in strength overall.

I'd agree with that Guns on the whole.

POINTS by rolling mauls or push overs seldom work versus Nz especially the rolling maul.
They defend it better than any side in the world,as to pushovers it doesn't happen[the recent
one conceded WAS`NT one just impatience by ref.]

To try the rolling maul in your own half is ludicrous,as well better quick feed to let backs run.
Scrum time Argentina are kings lineout/scrum nothing in it in top 3 first choice sides,back row
add Aus to that all 3 SH sides are better.

If you think the maul etc bit is so clever how many wins v SA/Nz can you count since 2011.

emack2 wrote:POINTS by rolling mauls or push overs seldom work versus Nz especially the rolling maul.
They defend it better than any side in the world,as to pushovers it doesn't happen[the recent
one conceded WAS`NT one just impatience by ref.]

To try the rolling maul in your own half is ludicrous,as well better quick feed to let backs run.
Scrum time Argentina are kings lineout/scrum nothing in it in top 3 first choice sides,back row
add Aus to that all 3 SH sides are better.

If you think the maul etc bit is so clever how many wins v SA/Nz can you count since 2011.

The boks love a rolling maul and use it very effectively. It has its merits, they suck in defenders and its very difficult to stop without penalising.
I always felt that NZ just play the rules. If its in danger of getting out of control they bring it down immediately. Better give away the 3 points say at the halfway line than 20 metres closer in.

They know they will hardly ever lose a match where the opposition get suffocated of try scoring ball. NZ convert possession far better than anyone else so they're more than happy for teams to score penalty after penalty.... as they're scoring try after try themselves.

Weather conditions dictate a rolling maul's use too. European autumn weather.... perfect for the maul. SH autumn... much less so.

GunsGerms wrote:I wouldn't consider Wales' forwards better than Ireland's either on the whole.

Actually quite difficult to compare - little between the two I'd say.

Lee vs Ross - basically a promising young gun against an old veteran. Relatively unproven vs proven. I'd go with Lee personally.
Hibbard vs Best - the very physical if not so technically gifted Hibbard vs a very proficient and technical player in Best. Hard to split. Best, just.
Jenkins vs Healy - one of the great props of the modern era vs probably the best allround loosie in world rugby. Healy for me, but just.
Ball vs Toner - two big lumps. Ball the more dynamic for me.
AWJ vs POC - two great veteran locks of NH rugby. POC shades it for me, but mighty close.
Lydiate vs POM - a bit like Hibbard/Best. Lydiate the more physical tackle machine, but POM with great technique and workrate. Lydiate, just.
Warburton vs SOB - different but equally excellent players. SOB for me, but you really can argue either way.
Faletau vs Heaslip - not unlike Warburton/SOB, very closely matched. Faletau for me, but you can argue either way.

Not sure there are two more closely matched packs in world rugby. Not sure I can split them.

fES,

Pretty fair assessment though of course it would be Lee v Healy and Jenkins v Ross. The backrow discussion has always raged on and each combo has had the better of each other in the past.

bedfordwelsh wrote:fES,

Pretty fair assessment though of course it would be Lee v Healy and Jenkins v Ross.  The backrow discussion has always raged on and each combo has had the better of each other in the past.

True if they were facing eachother, but when comparing the packs I thought it made more sense to compare like for like.

emack2 wrote:POINTS by rolling mauls or push overs seldom work versus Nz especially the rolling maul.
They defend it better than any side in the world,as to pushovers it doesn't happen[the recent
one conceded WAS`NT one just impatience by ref.]

To try the rolling maul in your own half is ludicrous,as well better quick feed to let backs run.
Scrum time Argentina are kings lineout/scrum nothing in it in top 3 first choice sides,back row
add Aus to that all 3 SH sides are better.

If you think the maul etc bit is so clever how many wins v SA/Nz can you count since 2011.

Think Ireland are the current kings at defending mauls judging recent games. It seems to me sometimes you re a little too eager to justify supporting NZ. They re currently the best but credit where its due.