Aviva Premiership Round Twelve

nathan wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:

nathan wrote:Good scrappy forwards based game. Glad we came out on top and finally in the top 4.

Didn't see all the game as the bt sport app was playing up on this internet connection.

Are you sure nathan? Forgive me if I can't count but Wasps went 4th having beaten Sale 41-16 with a tbp. That put us on 35 pts with a pd of +118.

Tigers also on 35 pts but with a pd of -1; both teams have won 7 games.

Your correct, I was going on what the pundits on bt sport said, I guess the wasps game wasn't taken into account when they said it.

No worries. The Wasps game kicked off 1/2 hour before Tigers v Bath so I can't believe the BT lads weren't aware of the score. Oh well, both our teams got wins.

Just finished the Tigers Bath game, got to say Tigers were absolutely gifted the win by the ref. two incredibly marginal forward passed called back for Bath, especially the first which was a definite try IMO really took the sting out of Bath.

Add to that Tigers could come off their feet at will to protect the ball in the first half and Bath got no change out of the scrum and it was always going to be an up hill battle for the away side.

Please Webber was just as bad in the rucks as well.

Webber also clearly lashed out with a closed fist twice inside the first 25 minutes. It was a niggly game with both sides playing up to the limit.

With the Burgess nearly a try I don't know if it was forward or not. He over runs Devoto but reaches back to collect it. There's no camera angle of Devoto's hands or in line with play.

Just watched the ITV highlights package, was interesting hearing Mike Ford moan about the ref and then say he wasn't blaming the ref.

Sort of thing Cockers gets slammed for.

On a side note, what did people think of the T.Youngs vs Webber battle?

nathan wrote:On a side note, what did people think of the T.Youngs vs Webber battle?

Well, Bath scrum looked much stronger when they replaced their front row and Youngs went off. At lineout time Webber seemed to get away with some that may have been crooked before being pinged for an awful one, Youngs under threw two 5m throws - second one only marginal and a shocking call by Parling. Youngs much better in open play. Neither would have given Hartley sleepless nights.

As to ref gifting us the game with two forward passes ruled out, not sure what is being referred to by a second one, biut first to Burgess hard for me to say from head on, but TJ seemed to call it and he was perfectly in line. Certainly Burgess was in front of Devoto (?) at the time of the pass.

I have no idea why Bath decided they wished to be involved in an arm wrestle. Sure conditions were poor, but their unwillingness to ever let Cook have the ball was baffling. They got their tactics wrong and Ford should look at himself before blaming the officials. I thought we were lucky not to have someone sinbinned in the second half - but then Bath had repeated offences in the first so perhaps that evened out.

Poor match for the neutral. Nice to see a gnarly Tigers side but the officiating wasn't up to snuff. The referee needed to get a grip on the niggle. Also, if he really thought Bath were guilty of so many penalties, he should have carded one of their players. I thought the visitors were generally hard done by but it would be a push to say it cost them the game. Mainly, it cost us a spectacle.

Agree baths tactics lost us this game before it began, in Joseph we have the inform outside centre in the league and we bench him, when burgess could have played 80 mins today in the a league semi. I doubt Joseph would have over ran any passes. Its a huge risk by ford playing burgess in these games when our starting centres and back row are established and one of the best around and I believe it may have cost us this game.

Well I make no secret of NOT being a Tigers fan, but they did deserve the win. Gritty performance. However I thought this was one of the worst officiated games I've seen for while. Complete failure to manage the niggle and scrum. Worse was the constant diving at the breakdown (more by Tigers but both sides). Salvi got motm and wasn't on his feet for 80 minutes!

Bath got their tactics wrong and shouldn't have tried to out muscle Leicester. I'm also not seeing what Burgess is offering other than an unskilful battering ram.

I'm not sure what the second forward pass was but there is no way Benjamin was 10m back when he tackled Cook. For the Burgess non try I think you'll see a lot worse than that not called, I haven't seen an angle which shows it was definitely a forward pass.

Having said that, Bath got their tactics completely wrong, we played into Leicester's hands and allowed ourselves to be dragged into the sort of game that they wanted to play. Pretty naïve really and despite JJ and Eastmond being missing you would have thought the backs could have been trusted a bit more. We certainly didn't deserve to win but after the thrashing earlier in the season this was always going to be a tough ask and we certainly didn't help ourselves.

Anyways Quins managed to limp past a poor LW side been though we couldn't catch a ball for 80 mins.

If Welsh can't beat or at least come close to beating a team playing as poorly as us at their home then they're never going to get a win this season.

Well we have them next....I hope we continue our good form...if we can, then I think we could put a decent score on them.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we have them next....I hope we continue our good form...if we can, then I think we could put a decent score on them.

Aren't you guys the only ones not to get a TBP so far (or did LI join the list?) either way time to correct that error.

I thought the Leicester players and crowd played the Ref very well, Bath were never going to win the game with those tactics on such a poor pitch.

Also why did Ford rush his conversion attempt at the end, there wasn't enough time to get the game restarted, he showed a lack of experience at a key time as a LBP would have been a small victory for Bath considering the standard of Refereeing they were up against.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we have them next....I hope we continue our good form...if we can, then I think we could put a decent score on them.

Aren't you guys the only ones not to get a TBP so far (or did LI join the list?) either way time to correct that error.

Newcastle got a tbp on Friday night at Franklin's Gardens.

Bathman_in_London wrote:I'm not sure what the second forward pass was but there is no way Benjamin was 10m back when he tackled Cook. For the Burgess non try I think you'll see a lot worse than that not called, I haven't seen an angle which shows it was definitely a forward pass.

Having said that, Bath got their tactics completely wrong, we played into Leicester's hands and allowed ourselves to be dragged into the sort of game that they wanted to play. Pretty naïve really and despite JJ and Eastmond being missing you would have thought the backs could have been trusted a bit more. We certainly didn't deserve to win but after the thrashing earlier in the season this was always going to be a tough ask and we certainly didn't help ourselves.

I agree. Also one Tigers try was scored from a driving maul where the ball carrier Tom Youngs clearly detached from the maul by a good yard and reattached at the rear in full sight of the ref so a clear penalty to Bath. I thought the ref had a shocker all round to be honest. Tigers still deserved the win though.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I'm not sure what the second forward pass was but there is no way Benjamin was 10m back when he tackled Cook. For the Burgess non try I think you'll see a lot worse than that not called, I haven't seen an angle which shows it was definitely a forward pass.

Having said that, Bath got their tactics completely wrong, we played into Leicester's hands and allowed ourselves to be dragged into the sort of game that they wanted to play. Pretty naïve really and despite JJ and Eastmond being missing you would have thought the backs could have been trusted a bit more. We certainly didn't deserve to win but after the thrashing earlier in the season this was always going to be a tough ask and we certainly didn't help ourselves.

I agree. Also one Tigers try was scored from a driving maul where the ball carrier Tom Youngs clearly detached from the maul by a good yard and reattached at the rear in full sight of the ref so a clear penalty to Bath. I thought the ref had a shocker all round to be honest. Tigers still deserved the win though.

Tom Youngs still had his left arm attached which judging by all other games this season is ok.

nathan wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I'm not sure what the second forward pass was but there is no way Benjamin was 10m back when he tackled Cook. For the Burgess non try I think you'll see a lot worse than that not called, I haven't seen an angle which shows it was definitely a forward pass.

Having said that, Bath got their tactics completely wrong, we played into Leicester's hands and allowed ourselves to be dragged into the sort of game that they wanted to play. Pretty naïve really and despite JJ and Eastmond being missing you would have thought the backs could have been trusted a bit more. We certainly didn't deserve to win but after the thrashing earlier in the season this was always going to be a tough ask and we certainly didn't help ourselves.

I agree. Also one Tigers try was scored from a driving maul where the ball carrier Tom Youngs clearly detached from the maul by a good yard and reattached at the rear in full sight of the ref so a clear penalty to Bath. I thought the ref had a shocker all round to be honest. Tigers still deserved the win though.

Tom Youngs still had his left arm attached which judging by all other games this season is ok.

Northampton were awarded a penalty try on Friday where Ben Kay pointed out the player had detached and was tackled but the ref said Falcons had illegally entered the maul to bring him down. He should have given a penalty against Saints.

I thought Tom Youngs got separated too, I also didn't understand why Hooper got pinged for going off his feet when the Leicester guys were allowed to do the same all game.

I'm not knocking the Tigers they won and always looked like doing so, but I found watching the Ref and Touchjudge x1 take centre stage at the expense of the game very frustrating.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we have them next....I hope we continue our good form...if we can, then I think we could put a decent score on them.

Aren't you guys the only ones not to get a TBP so far (or did LI join the list?) either way time to correct that error.

Newcastle got a tbp on Friday night at Franklin's Gardens.

I meant not got a TBP against LW.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I'm not sure what the second forward pass was but there is no way Benjamin was 10m back when he tackled Cook. For the Burgess non try I think you'll see a lot worse than that not called, I haven't seen an angle which shows it was definitely a forward pass.

Having said that, Bath got their tactics completely wrong, we played into Leicester's hands and allowed ourselves to be dragged into the sort of game that they wanted to play. Pretty naïve really and despite JJ and Eastmond being missing you would have thought the backs could have been trusted a bit more. We certainly didn't deserve to win but after the thrashing earlier in the season this was always going to be a tough ask and we certainly didn't help ourselves.

I agree. Also one Tigers try was scored from a driving maul where the ball carrier Tom Youngs clearly detached from the maul by a good yard and reattached at the rear in full sight of the ref so a clear penalty to Bath. I thought the ref had a shocker all round to be honest. Tigers still deserved the win though.

He did detach, but not by that much.

While it would have been correct to penalise him, I would have been furious as I have seen this permitted pretty much every game. Wasps the other week did it every single maul.

MichaelT wrote:

nathan wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I'm not sure what the second forward pass was but there is no way Benjamin was 10m back when he tackled Cook. For the Burgess non try I think you'll see a lot worse than that not called, I haven't seen an angle which shows it was definitely a forward pass.

Having said that, Bath got their tactics completely wrong, we played into Leicester's hands and allowed ourselves to be dragged into the sort of game that they wanted to play. Pretty naïve really and despite JJ and Eastmond being missing you would have thought the backs could have been trusted a bit more. We certainly didn't deserve to win but after the thrashing earlier in the season this was always going to be a tough ask and we certainly didn't help ourselves.

I agree. Also one Tigers try was scored from a driving maul where the ball carrier Tom Youngs clearly detached from the maul by a good yard and reattached at the rear in full sight of the ref so a clear penalty to Bath. I thought the ref had a shocker all round to be honest. Tigers still deserved the win though.

Tom Youngs still had his left arm attached which judging by all other games this season is ok.

Northampton were awarded a penalty try on Friday where Ben Kay pointed out the player had detached and was tackled but the ref said Falcons had illegally entered the maul to bring him down. He should have given a penalty against Saints.

That was a case on Kay being wrong. He said that because there were no Falcons players in the maul, it was no longer a maul, and therefore just a tackle situation. Law 17.4(f) says tha maul continues if the defending team voluntarily leaves the maul. So, as long as the attacking doesn't obviously break away it carries on, which is what happened in this case. It doesn't need to have any defenders in it to class as maul. This is why the refs sometimes shout "same maul".

HammerofThunor wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

nathan wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I'm not sure what the second forward pass was but there is no way Benjamin was 10m back when he tackled Cook. For the Burgess non try I think you'll see a lot worse than that not called, I haven't seen an angle which shows it was definitely a forward pass.

Having said that, Bath got their tactics completely wrong, we played into Leicester's hands and allowed ourselves to be dragged into the sort of game that they wanted to play. Pretty naïve really and despite JJ and Eastmond being missing you would have thought the backs could have been trusted a bit more. We certainly didn't deserve to win but after the thrashing earlier in the season this was always going to be a tough ask and we certainly didn't help ourselves.

I agree. Also one Tigers try was scored from a driving maul where the ball carrier Tom Youngs clearly detached from the maul by a good yard and reattached at the rear in full sight of the ref so a clear penalty to Bath. I thought the ref had a shocker all round to be honest. Tigers still deserved the win though.

Tom Youngs still had his left arm attached which judging by all other games this season is ok.

Northampton were awarded a penalty try on Friday where Ben Kay pointed out the player had detached and was tackled but the ref said Falcons had illegally entered the maul to bring him down. He should have given a penalty against Saints.

That was a case on Kay being wrong.  He said that because there were no Falcons players in the maul, it was no longer a maul, and therefore just a tackle situation.  Law 17.4(f) says tha maul continues if the defending team voluntarily leaves the maul. So, as long as the attacking doesn't obviously break away it carries on, which is what happened in this case. It doesn't need to have any defenders in it to class as maul. This is why the refs sometimes shout "same maul".

Fair enough, that makes sense. Commentators talk utter cack.

I did however like how one of them (probably Kay again) stated that if Northampton had of scored one of the Falcons tries they would have been praising it as fantastic rugby but as it was Falcons it was only talked about a little bit.

That was true (Tait's try I think). Nice break by Catterick (??) and then a couple of great offloads.

As for the maul try, well it all depends on whether you think the Saints broke away (as in left the maul) or everyone else left it. Personally I see it as, did they continue going forward, or did they go backwards to come away? [if that makes sense]

I think Kay was saying that the back few players broke away from the maul after it had stopped as opposed to shearing away through pushing straight as the maul turns. Pretty tough for a ref to make that call and as he didn't shout "same maul" a Falcons player was always likely to gamble.

Well Kay specifically said that there were no Falcon players in it so it couldn't be a maul. Which is wrong. I've heard him say something similar before so I think he's not aware (although he might well be and just think the attackers broke away, he's pretty obviously a student of the game in a way some other pundits aren't).