Aus-Ind-Eng: The Carlton Mid Triangular

First topic message reminder :

I like triangulars  that Aus hosts...there is a continuity and history with these.

and Just before the world cup...the 3 big brothers get the prime practise slot in the world cup conditions.....
it's a shame Aus found  no space for Harris and Lyon in the world cup squad...and India couldn't accommodate Vijay.( see story in next post)

to me in the triangular Aus are sure to make the finals and Ind inspite of their excellent overall record are about even with Eng...
better batting than Eng but the spinners that Ind relies so much on are not as much effective

Got ta.. Yeah. We have been calling for him for a long time.

England selectors allways seem 2 steps behind the rest of the world.

Don't know who these not many are, but I've said for eight weeks that you're better equipped with than them to win this.

Yeah the selectors seem to have some image of what a successful player looks like and anyone outside that gets shafted

Mitch is going to have a field day on that crazy pitch.

We have to get some kind of mental edge back..

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise with India missing out.

Listening to Dhoni just after the match it seemed as though his mind was going through some drill... talk about players having a break... and getting the team (back) together or something. Sounded a bit odd. Then again he always sounds so laid back. Perhaps it's partially true - it has been a long tour so far with the WC to come. 140-something days all up. Then a couple of warm up matches (v Aus and Afghanistan at Adelaide) before the big one against Pakistan first up at AO. Then SA at the MCG.

I have a gut feeling they will win the 1st, lose the 2nd. They will easily beat UAE.

However the 4th match v West Indies at the WACA could be a tricky one.

You'd think if they slipped up there, then the last two v Ireland and Zimbabwe (they should win both of those matches) could be very significant if run rates are part of the equation. It's a tough front end for them. If they win the first two then they might get a bit of a roll on towards the business end of the tournament.

mystiroakey wrote:Anything Is possible duty..

But i suspect we would have to bowl  first..

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/engine/current/match/636162.html

I suppose we might be alright.

Having watched them this Summer... Absolutely no one should lose to that West Indies team. It's less a team and more a collection of islanders who were handed their kit at the airport. Gayle hasn't made things better, blasting the selectors for not picking their best team. Can't be easy for a new gun to head to bat knowing Gayle doesn't rate already. India will blast them to Kingdom come

Was that our last game at the waka?

And we got 316!!

mystiroakey wrote:Was that our last game at the waka?

And we got 316!!

I believe so.

Mitch 0/72. #whoareya

kingraf wrote:Having watched them this Summer... Absolutely no one should lose to that West Indies team. It's less a team and more a collection of islanders who were handed their kit at the airport. Gayle hasn't made things better, blasting the selectors for not picking their best team. Can't be easy for a new gun to head to bat knowing Gayle doesn't rate already. India will blast them to Kingdom come

I know, I know... but strange things do happen. Just thinking if they can get some fire into their bowling attack they might catch India off guard.
Like they did in SA last week... and in that bizarre T20. Even without Pollard and Dwayne they could have one of those days, no?

Is that too much wishful thinking? Not that I wouldn't mind seeing India win that one.

Erm. Stokes seemed to have been the difference that game.

70 runs and 4 wickets.

Bopara needs to fall over a curb or something!!

Just watched them concede 440 in 50 overs, and 360 in 42 (with 65 runs coming off the final four overs!!). They are the pits of the earth as McEnroe would say

Duty281 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Was that our last game at the waka?

And we got 316!!

I believe so.

Mitch 0/72. #whoareya

Check the scorecard again, duty. No Clarke, Warner, Watson, Haddin, Harris. It was an experimental side.
And you wont have Cook or Stokes this time around.
(I'd like to see Stokes play at some stage in the WC... I think he'll thrive on the big stage, btw)

Besides, it was the only thing England won here last year. They lost the 12 other matches.

Still, strange things can happen... but I think our lads will provide some stronger opposition this time.

As Mysti says, anything is possible but I would be surprised if Australia don't win*. For me, they have the greater all round strength and probably belief (although England's does seem to have increased following Morgan's appointment - that's meant as a genuine comment rather than a cheap shot at Cook).

Didn't see India's innings but England's bowling stats as a unit look good. The 10 wickets shared round and no one terribly expensive. Also, very few extras conceded - always so important in a low scoring game. No no-balls and no byes. Buttler seems to be growing behind the stumps, 4 catches today which can only do him further good.

Pleasure and pain as regards England's batting which I did watch. Even allowing for a pitch of some inconsistent bounce, too many worrying wobbles from the front line batsmen. The situation very well retrieved though by Taylor and Buttler. Some lovely stroke play and clean hitting from Buttler but Taylor was even better in my eyes. I very much agreed with Robert Key on Sky who applauded ''the mental side of his innings .. soaking up pressure ... pinching singles for a total that at one time never looked like it was coming ... absolutely brilliant''.

Had India been able to get either Taylor or Buttler (let alone both) 30 or so runs earlier, things might have ended differently. Worth recalling that Buttler was almost run out when only on 3 - certainly couldn't see England coming back from that. Small margins sometimes have a big impact, etc.

Reasonable effort by India with the ball. Binny is never going to be a world class bowler but he was near to the top of his game today - thought it was a mistake not to give him his 10 overs. Having slated India's fielding in the recent Test series against Australia, only fair to say they're a lot better in this format.

The new ball was quite a factor today.. The pitch made for inconstant bounce with a hard ball.

Indias opening partnership was ok, but it was seriously slow. They probally didn't realise they actually did really well and a score of 300 odd wasn't needed. The middle order didn't settle down and got out cheap chasing the run rate. A typical england styled batting performance I suppose!!

Hales
Bell
Taylor
root
Morgan
Ali
buttler
woakes
broad
Anderson
Finn

That's what I'd go for, good balance to the side (4 proper seamers and Ali with Root to offer sixth option).

Depending on what you want, you could continue with Ali opening and bring in ballance or move Ali down to six and bring hales into open

Bopara's bowling may yet be handy in the coming weeks? Going with Root as our 6th bowler is a risk, only if one of our bowlers gets injured. If not, England will bowl the same 5 for most of an innings, I would think.

The thing about Bopara's bowling is that it's very rarely used these days. If the captain isn't giving him overs for whatever reason then there is no way he gets in the side.

Re Broad, he bowled very poorly today and was taken out of the attack quite early. I am not going to get on his back in general, but he is nowhere near back to his best yet. In form he walks into the side.

KP_fan wrote:The game today is a case in point I made.......
When there is no help for the spinners.....India needs their batting to score above par.

the day batting scores par or below par.....Dhoni has not even conditioned his team to think that sometimes bowlers need to win the games on par or below par scores.

And I see an acceptance of this disturbing tendency  amongst most fans also...that it is only batsman's job to put a hugely padded cushioned score.
Competently given up that bowling can also have anyting more than a restrictive role.

Well then we can give up any aspirations during this world cup

and the game today reinforces the case......yet again as I wrote at the end of last game or was it the game before that

Dhoni doesn't believe bowlers are for winning the games..
even when today new comers who are not conditioned by Dhoni-s defensive mentality yet i.e Patel and Binny......gave him the upper hand to put Eng at 54-5 in 18 overs, .....he still blew it up
Just like he does in tests....from upper hand positions

instead of pressing the foot on the throat of the opponent on the mat...he went...."lets defend, dry up runs" and removed both Patel and Binny that were running through Eng....

and allowed a 100 run partnership at more than 5RPO.....and lost it....and it was over 2/3rds way into that partnership

he is a 1 trick pony.....bat on Patta pitches get 300ish scores and use bowling to run throuhg the overs at just under 300 runs somwhow

Stella wrote:Bopara's bowling may yet be handy in the coming weeks? Going with Root as our 6th bowler is a risk, only if one of our bowlers gets injured. If not, England will bowl the same 5 for most of an innings, I would think.

I don't think you can pick someone in the side in case somebody gets injured and he has to step in. He's just not contributing enough atm

I don't think you can go in without a reasonable sixth bowler. Even three or four overs from your sixth bowler does wonders for plan making. That's how Glen Maxwell keeps bowling four or five overs a match for run a ball, and Bailey is fine with it

Root can do that just as well as bopara for me

England chasing, well done skipper, and glorious Anderson strikes with the third ball.

On, on you noblest English!

Great batting from Faulkner there at the end. No way they should have got up near 280.

Oh England why must you give away good positions over and over again

Glenn Maxwell's blatant disregard for milestones is probably the best thing in cricket.

Stuart Broad is easily my favourite cricketer

Such a naughty naughty boy

Olly wrote:Stuart Broad is easily my favourite cricketer

Such a naughty naughty boy

Olly - what was that about then?
[Mrs Bat has commandeered the remote control for the tennis.]

Watching the tennis too.

Perhaps the dismissal of Taylor was the turning point. Microns in it... hard to see any part of Johnson's heel behind the line. If that decision had gone the other way then it might have been the break England needed.

LD - didn't see the Taylor dismissal but even so, as I said the other day, I feel Australia have got too much all round strength and a bit more belief than England. There always seems to be at least someone who will step up for you.

Bopara top scoring for England but yet again seeming only able to do that when his runs are pretty meaningless.

Well the tri-series has shown the true potential and form of the 3 teams .
Eng comfortably better than India and significantly lagging Aus.

The diffrence between Ind and Eng is on quality...espcially of bowlers in terms of wicket taking skills.

The diffrence between Eng and Aus is in exposure....the more this core Eng group under Morgan is exposed to tough limited over situations...the better they will get.
On this form and with this team.....I'm giving them a semi final berth
and am doubting Ind even a QF berth

and If Faulkner has a serious problem then it is a blow to Aus...they have enough depth to not need him in the gorup stages...would defnitely miss him in knock out games.
He is their Kulsener

Well I think KP Fan sums up the relative merits of the teams. So from an England persective we didn't learn too much from that series: we would be favourites to beat India in seaming/swinging conditions, but are a long way behind Australia in all aspects of the game. So still very much outsiders for the trophy.

A few comments on the final:

Broad seemed to find some form, just in time as I think there was a case for bringing Jordan back if he had another poor game

Woakes was so bad is that enough to undo all his good recent work and mean Jordan comes in for him? It really was a shocking performance on a helpful wicket.

Morgan failed again - very patchy form from him, a great hundred then nothing else in the series. Really need him to fire in the WC, hope he can find some form maybe in the easier group games

How dare thee drag Chris Woakes's name through the mud like that VTR

Olly wrote:How dare thee drag Chris Woakes's name through the mud like that VTR

I think he's a very good player but that was very chastening stuff yesterday. The Aussies targeted him as the weak link and it was pretty brutal stuff. Our first group game is against the Aussies is it not?

Yeah it is but he's been our best odi bowler over the past few months, allowed one off day

Stokes has just scored 150 not out off 80 odd balls for the lions. Didn't do enough to make the squad, but he's still a heck of a talent (note he made that coming in higher up the order, he's not a lower order slogger)

Stokes is a talent - good to hear that he is going well. Ideally he could come into the side for Bopara after this World Cup as we build towards the next one. Bat him in the top 6 with some responsibility rather than 8 as he has been. As you say he isn't a lower order slogger, he needs to play himself in and can then accelerate.

VTR wrote:Stokes is a talent - good to hear that he is going well. Ideally he could come into the side for Bopara after this World Cup as we build towards the next one. Bat him in the top 6 with some responsibility rather than 8 as he has been. As you say he isn't a lower order slogger, he needs to play himself in and can then accelerate.

Is it too late for him to be called up now?

Yep, barring injury, the squads aren't subject to change.

kingraf wrote:Yep, barring injury, the squads aren't subject to change.

Cheers, though as much.

Hales for Bopara then? I still think the latter's bowling might be needed at some stage, but we have to take a risk, and get a big hitter in.

Yesterday wasn't so much Woakes' fault as it was evidence of the importance of a sixth bowler who you trust to bowl a few decent overs, even if at six an over. No way,Woakes bowls a full ten if he played for us or Australia. It took rather poor planning for him to actually bowl ten overs.

Looking at England's group, I'd fancy
Australia - loss
Sri Lanka - 55-45 in England's favour
Bangladesh - 70-30
New Zealand - 60-40 New Zealand
Afghanistan - 90-10 England
Bangladesh - 75-25 England
Scotland - 95-5 England.

By my estimates if you play to your potential, you should finish third in the group. Which gives you a clash against the 2nd best team in the other group. I think that will be either Pakistan or India. Can realistically see you guys besting any of those. So I'm going Semi finals for England. Could be further depending on the clash in the Semi (Crystal ball gazing now, but it would be between Australia, who should top group one... and West Indies, who should finish fourth in Group two - Australia beats you, West indies doesn't)

guildfordbat wrote:

VTR wrote:How would we get Tredwell in the side. Form says Broad would go, but he's just coming back and is a vastly experienced bowler in ODIs and in these conditions.

My hunch is Woakes would have to be the man to go. Harsh as he has done well recently, but I feel he could be cannon fodder if the ball doesn't swing. Not sure we can afford him and Anderson in the same team in non-swinging conditions.

To be clear, England don't have a perfect eleven available to them and so whatever team is chosen it will have weaknesses.

I feel England's batting has shown time and again that we're not suited for a stiff chase or to properly accelerate in the closing overs when batting first. My approach or gamble would therefore be to set out to take 10 wickets in each game and play the extra bowler. Thus, Tredwell would come in for Bopara from today's team.

I'm not too worried about losing Bopara's batting as that has been pretty feeble lately. However, I readily admit that I'm not overjoyed at having Tredwell, Anderson and Finn at 9, 10, jack. A few weeks ago I had Jordan in my ''on paper'' team in place of Finn - that gave more strength to the batting but, of course, since the then Jordan has rather lost it with the ball whilst Finn has rediscovered some form. Maybe, that'll turn round again - nothing is certain or easy!

Btw, you could be right about Woakes getting the sharp end of the stick although I tend to agree with you that would appear harsh. I was never keen on his bowling (for international level) when everyone else (apart from Mike Selig) was banging on about it over the last couple of years - basically, I just considered he didn't have enough nip. However, I was reading at the week-end that he's upped his pace which might explain his increased effectiveness. I also still think he can bat although we need him to prove that.

Re comments on the WC thread. I stand by my comments in the opening paras of my post of 23 January above.

guildford : you have nearly convinced me. Tredwell in for the NZ match might not be a bad call. Replacing Ballance or Morgan ?
Batting cuts off sharpish after 6/7 of Buttler and Woakes ; but it seems clear no batting lineup currently available to England is capable of chasing down anything over about 280 so indeed , why not try to reduce the target ?
The only concern I have is that the inclusion of Tredwell might just mean sidelining Ali with the ball and not gaining much at all...certainly some grounds in Australia won't lend themselves to much more than ten overs of spin. But it may well be worth at least a try.

Cheers, Alfie. Your concerns are understood and not unreasonable. However, as I've said, no approach is risk free for England and this is the one I consider best in all the circumstances.

With regard to your specific query, I would leave out Ballance and retain Morgan. Mainly because I don't want to disrupt the captaincy at this stage.