England Saxons vs Irish Wolfhounds

First topic message reminder :

The England Saxons face Ireland Wolfhounds at Irish Independent Park on Friday, January 30 in Cork. Given that the six nations are too bloomin far away and this is a big RWC year with many players battling over a place in international squads i'm looking forward to this one. Who do we think should be in both teams. This is my england team

Corbisiero
George
Brookes
Kitchener
Kruis
Croft
Kvesic
Waldrom

Wigglesworth
Cipriani
Yarde
Slade
Joseph
Rokodunguni
Foden

Thomas
Cowan-Dickie
Vunipola
Parling
Clark
Dickson
Burgess
Myler

bet more people watch it than previous.

its RWC year

and Sam Burgess is playing, which will bring in curious League fans to see how he goes

the Saxons team look seriously strong. especially the pack.

i hope Cips plays as there is a good chance he could do himself big favours behind a dominant pack, with serious attacking options outside him in burgess, slade, devoto etc.

rodders wrote:If skysports have picked it up then they are expecting England to give Ireland a drubbing.

It's always on Sky isn't it? Part of the RFU's broadcast deal. Edit: scrap that, it's in Ireland

quinsforever wrote:
i hope Cips plays as there is a good chance he could do himself big favours behind a dominant pack,

Unlikely. The 23 will come from the Saxons squad announced injuries permitting. Some of them (Webber especially) may step up to the full training squad, but cannot see any dropping down.

HammerofThunor wrote:

rodders wrote:If skysports have picked it up then they are expecting England to give Ireland a drubbing.

It's always on Sky isn't it? Part of the RFU's broadcast deal. Edit: scrap that, it's in Ireland

Exactly - obviously sky are anticipating a jolly by team England...and as sure as the post match beers will be on big Sammy, they'll get it...

rodders wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

rodders wrote:If skysports have picked it up then they are expecting England to give Ireland a drubbing.

It's always on Sky isn't it? Part of the RFU's broadcast deal. Edit: scrap that, it's in Ireland

Exactly - obviously sky are anticipating a jolly by team England...and as sure as the post match beers will be on big Sammy, they'll get it...

Someone's a bit chippy this morning!

Could see Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien and Iain Henderson using this game to try and get back to match fitness after long lay-offs.

Would be a great test for the young English lads if they are, even if those boys aren't up to full match fitness

What I like about it, from an English perspective as we've not yet had the Irish team announcement, is that there's a superb blend of young talent who want to put a marker down and some older boys who have a point to prove.

That whole pack SHOULD be motivated to perform. Mullan because he's playing very well and been bumped to 4th choice. Webber for much the same reason and he offers something a bit different. Brookes because he knows he needs to take that next step up and become the prop Northampton have seen in him.

Itoje as he's a former U20 RWC Captain and winner and he wants to let the England selectors know that he's the real deal. Day, being an older head and superb line-out performer knows he could be a step away from the seniors if Parling is concussed again and that means RWC.

The whole BR for much the same reasons. Garvey because he's been consistently excellent for Bath, hasn't received the recognition up until now and offers something very different at blindside internationally, a huge Willem Alberts style flanker. Kvesic because he put in 25+ tackles per game in his two Tests for England and fell off the pace last season, he's coming off the back of 5 MOTM performances this season and again offers a genuine fetcher role. And finally, Waldrom because he must be seriously p*** at Cockerill for ruining his career for the past 3 years and Ewers if he's selected because he could easily be a genuine option for England at either 6 or 8 with Morgan out.

45-man training squad for the Wolfhounds and Six Nation announced;

Forwards (25)
Michael Bent (Leinster)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster)
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)
Dave Foley (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Mike McCarthy (Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Nathan White (Galwegians/Connacht)*

Backs (21)
Isaac Boss (Terenure/Leinster)
Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Noel Reid (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92)
Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster)

Interesting; only 3 10s included and Sexton ruled out of the Italy game. So that means the same 2 10s in the Wolfhounds game as in the first match of the 6N proper. Could indicate Madigan will play 10 the week before against the Saxons as he has been playing 12 for Leinster as well as starting against Italy. Madigan and Keatley to have a half each in the Saxons game as an audition for Italy? We're also fairly likely to see a handful of players short on game time for the Wolfhounds; Healy, Nathan White, Sean O'Brien and Iain Henderson all on the comeback trail and Mike Ross out to prove himself after losing his Leinster place to Martin Moore.

My predicted Wolfhounds include big-name players who are short on game time;

1. Cian Healy
2. Richardt Strauss
3. Mike Ross
4. Dave Foley
5. Iain Henderson
6. Robbie Diack
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Jack Conan
9. Kieran Marmion
10. Ian Madigan
11. Craig Gilroy
12. Noel Reid
13. Luke Fitzgerald
14. Fergus McFadden
15. Felix Jones

16. Rob Herring 17. Michael Bent 18. Nathan White 19. Dominic Ryan 20. Jordi Murphy 21. Isaac Boss 22. Ian Keatley 23. Darren Cave

Actually I'd expect Earls to fit in there too somewhere...

Notch wrote:Could see Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien and Iain Henderson using this game to try and get back to match fitness after long lay-offs.

It is clear that is exactly what is going to happen

Schmidt wants these guys up and running for the France game

First up, the Saxons are always far less than the sum of their parts.

I like the backs, there's some real talent there. If it were to be dry they might be able to play a bit (but see point 1).

I think the forwards are a bit unbalanced, namely:

- Only one specialist lock
- Only one credible option at 7
- 3 loose heads
- Only two tight heads, one of whom (Thomas) may well be needed on the bench for the Seniors and so will need protecting in the game.

Having made the point that there are already 3 LH's in the side I'd say my biggest disappointment is the omission of Auturac. England are blessed when it comes to LHs, and Waller and Harrison are both fine players and fine prospects, but in Auturac I see someone with the potential to move quickly to World Class.

Anyway, it's a decent squad, but a couple of injuries in the pack and we might start to look quite unbalanced.

yappysnap wrote:I hope not, im a Quins fan and he is no where near ready. Most of the time I wouldn't even start him in the AP. He's a big lad but has no clue how to use it yet.

Bit harsh, he hit some lovely form in the middle of the season but it's faded. Either way, I DO want him to start for Quins and not be involved in the Saxons as we need our forwards!

I just don't think he gets involved enough or does enough to warrant a start, he's big but he doesn't use it that well.

1.Mullan
2.Webber
3.Brookes
4.Garvey
5.Day
6.Croft
7.Kvesic
8.Waldrom

9.Dickson
10.Slade

11.Yarde
12.Burgess
13.Daly
14.Wade
15.Pennell

16.Cowan-Dickie
17.Waller
18.Thomas
19.Itoje
20.Ewers
21.Simpson
22.Devoto
23.Ashton

Not a bad looking side at all with a fair bit of balance to it in many ways. As is often the case with Saxons sides they will likely play as far less than the sum of their parts though.

yappysnap wrote:I just don't think he gets involved enough or does enough to warrant a start, he's big but he doesn't use it that well.

You talking about Charlie Matthews there Yappy?

Nice to see that Fearns has been added to the squad after the call up for Tom Croft. Gaskell comes in for Day.

propdavid_london wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I just don't think he gets involved enough or does enough to warrant a start, he's big but he doesn't use it that well.

You talking about Charlie Matthews there Yappy?

Yea he's still really raw and isn't physical enough yet

I think we may see something like this from Ireland:-

1. Cian Healy
2. Rob Herring
3. Mike Ross
4. Mike McCarthy
5. Iain Henderson
6. Dominic Ryan
7. Jordi Murphy/Tommy O'Donnell
8. Jack Conan
9. Kieran Marmion
10. Ian Keatley
11. Craig Gilroy
12. Darren Cave
13. Keith Earls
14. Fergus McFadden
15. Simon Zebo

16. Richard Strauss 17. Michael Bent 18. Nathan White 19. Robbie Diack 20. Sean O'Brien 21. Isaac Boss 22. Ian Madigan 23. Luke Fitzgerald/Jared Payne

The Saxons always flatter to deceive.

They were well coached in the old days of the Churchill cup but now I think the Saxons are just some form of justification for Lancaster to have a big squad to choose from.

Only playing one game....whats the point??

The Wolfhounds will win this game.

I always really enjoy this game though, its always a good game- often close and always hard fought.

But I think the Saxons should use it similarly to how Ireland do, to give game time to more players who could be starting in the Six Nations as well as the back-up and young guys on fringes of the squad.

Would you not learn more with Cipriani at 10 over Henry Slade for instance? Cipriani has much more chance of being involved in the Six Nations.

Go back a few years and the saxons/A team was a clear route into the senior squad. It still can be but a lot of players bypass the Saxons altogether, so Saxon selection may come across as a sop to the also-rans.

It does also highlight the importance of the U20's as the training ground for the next generation of internationals

I'd think in a RWC year this one will have plenty of significance for the individuals involved - even if the result won't be of too much concern.

Some guys won't make the 6N squad so its last chance saloon time to impress...unfortunately there are bound to be a few injuries between now and the RWC so you never know who could pencil themselves in here.

I think there is some significance. I am just being pessimistic.

I hope there could be more use made of the A teams. Like plenty of others - I think the Churchill cup was a great event.

Notch wrote:I always really enjoy this game though, its always a good game- often close and always hard fought.

I'd agree they are hard-fought but I'm not sure they're always good games. I recall watching a real stinker a couple of years ago (I don't think the weather helped much though).

saxons look stronger on paper. but the benefit to ireland of only having 3 teams effectively represented means that their communication and fluency is a big advantage in many key units and combos around the pitch.

looking forwards to it.

nice teaser ahead of the 6N

Sean O'Brien back to fitness and likely to play versus the England Saxons

Notch wrote:Sean O'Brien back to fitness and likely to play versus the England Saxons

Have you seen him? The training pictures released by Leinster show a much slimmer SOB. He used to look like a horse. Looking more like a jockey at the moment.

That's interesting, although SOB has added much to his game since his breakthrough in 2011, I feel that was when he was at his physical peak. Since then I've always felt he's been carrying a few spare pounds.

Submachine wrote:

Notch wrote:Sean O'Brien back to fitness and likely to play versus the England Saxons

Have you seen him? The training pictures released by Leinster show a much slimmer SOB. He used to look like a horse. Looking more like a jockey at the moment.

He has consistently gotten way out of shape during his injury lay-offs. Usually he's quick enough to shed it though. Suppose he won't be able to build shoulder mass properly yet, that would make him look a good deal smaller - also doesn't help he's standing beside a perfectly conditioned Cian Healy in most photos in training.

Looking at the Ireland training photos he's actually come along well in the past couple of weeks, he was carrying a fair few extra pounds last I saw him, at least he looks fit now.

kunu wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Notch wrote:Sean O'Brien back to fitness and likely to play versus the England Saxons

Have you seen him? The training pictures released by Leinster show a much slimmer SOB. He used to look like a horse. Looking more like a jockey at the moment.

He has consistently gotten way out of shape during his injury lay-offs. Usually he's quick enough to shed it though. Suppose he won't be able to build shoulder mass properly yet, that would make him look a good deal smaller - also doesn't help he's standing beside a perfectly conditioned Cian Healy in most photos in training.

Looking at the Ireland training photos he's actually come along well in the past couple of weeks, he was carrying a fair few extra pounds last I saw him, at least he looks fit now.

Don't know how to read that. Comes accross as half admiration for the training hours put in and half crush.

Submachine wrote:

kunu wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Notch wrote:Sean O'Brien back to fitness and likely to play versus the England Saxons

Have you seen him? The training pictures released by Leinster show a much slimmer SOB. He used to look like a horse. Looking more like a jockey at the moment.

He has consistently gotten way out of shape during his injury lay-offs. Usually he's quick enough to shed it though. Suppose he won't be able to build shoulder mass properly yet, that would make him look a good deal smaller - also doesn't help he's standing beside a perfectly conditioned Cian Healy in most photos in training.

Looking at the Ireland training photos he's actually come along well in the past couple of weeks, he was carrying a fair few extra pounds last I saw him, at least he looks fit now.

Don't know how to read that. Comes accross as half admiration for the training hours put in and half crush.

You've hit the nail on the head

Perfectly conditioned, or perfectly conditioned for a prop

With Day and Croft out that means it's a pack of:

1. A Waller
2. R Webber
3. K Brookes
4. M Itoje
5. J Gaskell
6. M Garvey
7. M Kveisc
8. T Waldorm

16. L Cowan-Dickie 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas 19. D Ewers 20. C Fearns

That is a more powerful pack than last a few days ago. I think they must be expecting rain...

Not a bad pack at all, I'm really looking forward to watching Itoje

When can we expect the official sides to be named? I would imagine tomorrow for the Saxons, any of the Irish lads got an idea of when the Wolfhounds would be?

Chjw131 wrote:With Day and Croft out that means it's a pack of:

1. A Waller
2. R Webber
3. K Brookes
4. M Itoje
5. J Gaskell
6. M Garvey
7. M Kveisc
8. T Waldorm

16. L Cowan-Dickie 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas 19. D Ewers 20. C Fearns

That is a more powerful pack than last a few days ago. I think they must be expecting rain...

I still think Auturac is a better LH than either Mullan or Waller. In any case I'd expect Mullan to start ahead of Waller, and I'd guess Ewers is probably still ahead of Garvey. TH is a difficult one, as Thomas really needs protecting so he's fit for the bench for the seniors.

kunu wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Notch wrote:Sean O'Brien back to fitness and likely to play versus the England Saxons

Have you seen him? The training pictures released by Leinster show a much slimmer SOB. He used to look like a horse. Looking more like a jockey at the moment.

He has consistently gotten way out of shape during his injury lay-offs. Usually he's quick enough to shed it though. Suppose he won't be able to build shoulder mass properly yet, that would make him look a good deal smaller - also doesn't help he's standing beside a perfectly conditioned Cian Healy in most photos in training.

Looking at the Ireland training photos he's actually come along well in the past couple of weeks, he was carrying a fair few extra pounds last I saw him, at least he looks fit now.

Was thinking the same - he didn't look much like a jockey in those training photos released yesterday .... unless he's been biceps curling a horse maybe.

DaveM wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:With Day and Croft out that means it's a pack of:

1. A Waller
2. R Webber
3. K Brookes
4. M Itoje
5. J Gaskell
6. M Garvey
7. M Kveisc
8. T Waldorm

16. L Cowan-Dickie 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas 19. D Ewers 20. C Fearns

That is a more powerful pack than last a few days ago. I think they must be expecting rain...

I still think Auturac is a better LH than either Mullan or Waller. In any case I'd expect Mullan to start ahead of Waller, and I'd guess Ewers is probably still ahead of Garvey. TH is a difficult one, as Thomas really needs protecting so he's fit for the bench for the seniors.

Surely Brookes is ahead of Thomas for 3rd TH spot, did well in the autumn although I haven't seen him play much since

BamBam wrote:

DaveM wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:With Day and Croft out that means it's a pack of:

1. A Waller
2. R Webber
3. K Brookes
4. M Itoje
5. J Gaskell
6. M Garvey
7. M Kveisc
8. T Waldorm

16. L Cowan-Dickie 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas 19. D Ewers 20. C Fearns

That is a more powerful pack than last a few days ago. I think they must be expecting rain...

I still think Auturac is a better LH than either Mullan or Waller. In any case I'd expect Mullan to start ahead of Waller, and I'd guess Ewers is probably still ahead of Garvey. TH is a difficult one, as Thomas really needs protecting so he's fit for the bench for the seniors.

Surely Brookes is ahead of Thomas for 3rd TH spot, did well in the autumn although I haven't seen him play much since

Yes Brookes takes the 3rd spot at the moment although Thomas has come on and done extremely well when he's played for Bath. Brookes is a better carrier and consistent scrummager at the moment though.

I'd agree that Auterac looks a superb prospect but he's only really had half a season of consistent Prem appearances so far. Perhaps when James leaves Bath he'll be first choice and really clock the miles up. Got to say at the moment though that both Waller and Mullan have been playing very well and deserve their spots. Some stunning depth at LH for England at the moment, no wonder LCD was moved to hooker.

Even tighthead stocks look pretty good

Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas all have played at international level to varying degrees

Sinckler, Collier, Scott Wilson, Balmain all for the future, and I'm probably missing a couple of obvious ones too

BamBam wrote:Even tighthead stocks look pretty good

Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas all have played at international level to varying degrees

Sinckler, Collier, Scott Wilson, Balmain all for the future, and I'm probably missing a couple of obvious ones too

we are starting to get a good depth, a side effect of Lancasters swapping around. May not benefit us for this world cup but it certainly will for the next one.

When are they announcing the teams. Today?

Thomas has improved massively in the last year or so. I certainly would worry about having him on the bench for an international (although still behind Cole and Wilson). In fact he's done better at Bath than Wilson from what I've seen since Wilson got back from the AI.

BamBam wrote:

Surely Brookes is ahead of Thomas for 3rd TH spot, did well in the autumn although I haven't seen him play much since

Brookes had a stormer in the Newcastle/Dragons game 2 weeks ago. He was very strong in the scrum and was doing a lot of carrying, busting a few tackles along the way. I think he may have got on the score sheet too, I can't remember though. A shame Newcastle can't hold on to players like him.

Brookes is an odd one though Saint. He was so quick to leave before for the Tigers...failed, came back has got back in shape then couldn't wait to get away again.

We have a host of kids coming through now that will re-sign. Many will go on to represent the Saxons and I would hope the full side...as Brookes has shown you CAN play for England being at the falcons - its money that is what it might come down to more.

Mark Wilson however our back rower...6/8 should definitely be in the Saxons squad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Brookes is an odd one though Saint. He was so quick to leave before for the Tigers...failed, came back has got back in shape then couldn't wait to get away again.

We have a host of kids coming through now that will re-sign. Many will go on to represent the Saxons and I would hope the full side...as Brookes has shown you CAN play for England being at the falcons - its money that is what it might come down to more.

Mark Wilson however our back rower...6/8 should definitely be in the Saxons squad.

That and i'm guessing with Scot Wilson having already played for the Saxons you've got to wonder whether Falcons need two really top class, and no doubt expensive, THs?

Wilson is still a few seasons off IMO, I don't think he would have been a serious challenger to Brookes as number 1 for at least the next season and a half

BamBam wrote:Wilson is still a few seasons off IMO, I don't think he would have been a serious challenger to Brookes as number 1 for at least the next season and a half

Agree, but from a budget point of view it's worth taking the gamble as there's other positions that need investment.

Jones to captain the Wolfhounds apparently. And Madigan in at 10. Keatley told to rest up.

Is that an official announcement or have you been given the nod pot?

Pot Hale wrote:Jones to captain the Wolfhounds apparently.   And Madigan in at 10.  Keatley told to rest up.

Keatley to start against Italy then??