England Saxons vs Irish Wolfhounds

First topic message reminder :

The England Saxons face Ireland Wolfhounds at Irish Independent Park on Friday, January 30 in Cork. Given that the six nations are too bloomin far away and this is a big RWC year with many players battling over a place in international squads i'm looking forward to this one. Who do we think should be in both teams. This is my england team

Corbisiero
George
Brookes
Kitchener
Kruis
Croft
Kvesic
Waldrom

Wigglesworth
Cipriani
Yarde
Slade
Joseph
Rokodunguni
Foden

Thomas
Cowan-Dickie
Vunipola
Parling
Clark
Dickson
Burgess
Myler

rodders wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Jones to captain the Wolfhounds apparently.   And Madigan in at 10.  Keatley told to rest up.

Keatley to start against Italy then??

Madigan has to prove on Friday that he should keep the shirt.

Pot Hale wrote:

rodders wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Jones to captain the Wolfhounds apparently.   And Madigan in at 10.  Keatley told to rest up.

Keatley to start against Italy then??

Madigan has to prove on Friday that he should keep the shirt.

And if thats the case then its advantage Keatley you'd say? Unless Joe intends to give Madigan 80min and has made his mind up that Keatley won't start.

Knowing Schmidt though you'd imagine another group will be already preparing for Italy and those not selected for the wolfhounds are in the driving seat.

Reading between the lines - unless Madigan has a stormer he'll be on the bench against Italy...

England team announced- great looking team!!

15 Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors) 
14 Chris Ashton (Saracens) 
13 Elliot Daly (Wasps) 
12 Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby) 
11 Marland Yarde (Harlequins) 
10 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs) 
9 Lee Dickson, captain (Northampton Saints) 
1 Matt Mullan (Wasps) 
2 Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) 
3 Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) 
4 Matt Garvey (Bath Rugby) 
5 James Gaskell (Wasps) 
6 Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs) 
7 Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) 
8 Thomas Waldrom (Exeter Chiefs)
Replacements
16 Luke Cowan Dickie (Exeter Chiefs) 
17 Alex Waller (Northampton Saints) 
18 Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps) 
19 Maro Itoje (Saracens) 
20 Carl Fearns (Bath) 
21 Joe Simpson (Wasps) 
22 Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) 
23 Christian Wade (Wasps)

My first thought is WHY IS WADE ON THE BENCH?

Other than that, it looks pretty good. Looks like Brookes will be on the bench against Wales, like the look of the bench in this game too

Slade, Burgess, Daly midfield looks a bit tasty

Yeh, Wade on the bench is my only gripe, especially since Yarde hasn't exactly been great this season. Front row looks so decent, and that backrow is a bit tasty too. 

Daly and Burgess is a nice attacking combination, but hopefully they don't get found out defensively. Daly's defence isn't the best, and Burgess is still learning!

2nd row you could say is 2 no.6's . Could be very good, although I havent read much about how well Gaskell is doing since switching to 2nd row

Shame Wade cannot get a start.  Also preferred to have seen Garvey and Slade play in their current club positions. Presumably Cole is not fit for Cardiff, so Brookes is slated to be on the bench.

It will be very interesting to see how they play.

That's an incredibly strong team, although I echo the comments re Wade. We're all fully aware of what Ashton offers, so let's give Wade a run out instead. I'm happy to see Garvey at lock, as I think this is his better position; added to which the depth in the backrow would hinder his international chances.

Ireland Wolfhounds

15. Felix Jones (c)
14. Fergus McFadden
13. Keith Earls
12. Gordon D'Arcy
11. Luke Fitzgerald
10. Ian Madigan
9. Kieran Marmion

8. Jack Conan
7. Sean O'Brien
6. Dominic Ryan
5. Mick McCarthy
4. Iain Henderson
3. Mike Ross
2. Richardt Strauss
1. Jack McGrath

16. Rob Herring 17. Michael Bent 18. Nathan White 19. Robbie Diack 20. Eoin McKeon 21. Isaac Boss 22. Noel Reid 23. Craig Gilroy

Not sure what the point of picking D'Arcy for this game is... I suppose like Madigan and Ross its just for game time. Anyway, its not very often you see an 'A' team with 4 British and Irish Lions tourists in it.

With 11 Leinster players starting the Wolfhounds team should gel better than the Saxons!

Stewie15 wrote:With 11 Leinster players starting the Wolfhounds team should gel better than the Saxons!

I believe that will be the difference between the two teams in a narrow home win. The majority of the Wolfhounds team plays and trains together every week. The Saxons don't.

Notch wrote:

Stewie15 wrote:With 11 Leinster players starting the Wolfhounds team should gel better than the Saxons!

I believe that will be the difference between the two teams in a narrow home win. The majority of the Wolfhounds team plays and trains together every week. The Saxons don't.

I'd agree with that. Its a shame as on paper this is one hell of a match up, and both teams could rank pretty highly against most world teams if they had more time together

Would have thought sinkler would have got the bench spot seeing as he toured NZ

Marmion and Madigan...

cb wrote:Shame Wade cannot get a start.  Also preferred to have seen Garvey and Slade play in their current club positions. Presumably Cole is not fit for Cardiff, so Brookes is slated to be on the bench.

It will be very interesting to see how they play.

Apparently Brookes has been promoted to the EPS as cover for Davey Wilson who's hurt his neck. SL hopes that Wilson will be back to training soon. 

This just keeps getting better and better!!

Notch wrote:Not sure what the point of picking D'Arcy for this game is... I suppose like Madigan and Ross its just for game time. Anyway, its not very often you see an 'A' team with 4 British and Irish Lions tourists in it.

Looks like Cave will start or bench against Italy Notch - I thought you'd be pleased.

I guess given D'arcys lack of game time he's getting a run out, in case he's needed in the next few weeks - but I'd take it that he's down the pecking order for Italy and Payne, Henshaw and Cave are in the driving seat to start in midfield -with Earls maybe most likely to break into that trio(duo).

This should be a good game come rain or shine. Heavyweight pack for the Saxons combined with a big lump at 12 goes some way to illustrating the game plan I think. Having said that Slade, Daly and the back three are high class attacking threats.

I like Dickson in at 9 as he'll keep that pack rolling around the corner at pace. Daly is also a good kicking option from 13 and the odd 65m + penalty.

i'm really excited about this game. some huge and mobile forwards in that england pack. garvey and gaskell at 4 and 5 is like a meaner version of lawes and launchbury. even if wolfhounds are more fluid and play better as a team, i think this saxons pack is going to munch the wolfhounds.

15+ point win for saxons. there are enough forwards that play together (4 bath, 3 chiefs, 3 wasps) to make the rolling maul and set pieces dominant, and with daly able to convert penalties within his own half, the pressure at scrum and breakdown are going to win this for the saxons.

Ireland have a decent pack as well. Henderson, SOB, McGrath, Conan and McCarthy players who won't be pushed around too easily.

I would expect us to get the edge in the scrum with the pack that we have out, at minimum parity.

Will be an interesting battle, Mullan is an international quality loosehead IMO, and Thomas has been going well in the scrum recently. From what little I've seen, Mcgrath is stronger in the loose than in the scrum, while Ross obviously has the experience

BamBam wrote:Will be an interesting battle, Mullan is an international quality loosehead IMO, and Thomas has been going well in the scrum recently. From what little I've seen, Mcgrath is stronger in the loose than in the scrum, while Ross obviously has the experience

He's actually stronger in the scrum than the loose but with Healy injured he's been playing through an arm injury for Leinster and has struggled this year.The hope is that his ban will have given him enough recovery time for it to heal.

Notch wrote:I would expect us to get the edge in the scrum with the pack that we have out, at minimum parity.

I think we will edge the breakdown with Strauss, McGrath and SOB all great on the ground, we also have a mobile pack and should do well around the gain line- but I think our scrum will struggle. The mcgrath-Ross combo has struggled all season internationally and at club level. Leinster's scrum improvement upon Moore's reintroduction makes me think Ross' age has caught up with him.

profitius wrote:Ireland have a decent pack as well. Henderson, SOB, McGrath, Conan and McCarthy players who won't be pushed around too easily.

Yes indeed they are good players. I can't say I see it being a one-sided contest in anyone's favour. There's enough motivation and experience on both sides to make this a hard fought contest. No doubt the weather will be appalling as well so it'll be tight, with Daly's boot possibly a decisive factor. Big Sam will fancy a good go as well and he's finding his feet much more in the carrying stakes.

Gain-line wise I don't see Ireland making big yards. There are some eye-wateringly big-hitters in that Saxons pack with Ewers, Garvey, Kvesic and Webber being some of the most aggressive in the AP.

Chjw131 wrote:

profitius wrote:Ireland have a decent pack as well. Henderson, SOB, McGrath, Conan and McCarthy players who won't be pushed around too easily.

Yes indeed they are good players. I can't say I see it being a one-sided contest in anyone's favour. There's enough motivation and experience on both sides to make this a hard fought contest. No doubt the weather will be appalling as well so it'll be tight, with Daly's boot possibly a decisive factor. Big Sam will fancy a good go as well and he's finding his feet much more in the carrying stakes.

Gain-line wise I don't see Ireland making big yards. There are some eye-wateringly big-hitters in that Saxons pack with Ewers, Garvey, Kvesic and Webber being some of the most aggressive in the AP.

SOB has boshed the likes of Courtney Lawes (mid signature wallop) before, if he's in decent nick, which remains to be seen, he'll make yards. Really looking forward to the game.

Like the look of the Wolfhounds team and I am really pleased with the Saxons, in theory it should be a really good match up.

I like the Saxons pack and I reckon Mullan, Webber and Thomas could hold their own against most international teams.  The second row is a little ungainly, but should still be decent in the set piece. The Saxons' back-row looks really well balanced too.

Agree that the Saxons team looks really powerful - probably more concerned with the individual performances of the wolfhounds in the context of bigger games to come but hopefully this will be a good contest.

For the wolfhounds I think the form of the returning O'Brien, Henderson, Healy and Earls will be of real interest as well as Madigans form with the boot.

Looking forward to seeing how Burgess goes for the Saxons too (hopefully badly lol)- there should be some big collisions with Hendo and O'Brien there for Ireland. Very impressive that the Saxons can leave Wade on the bench for Ashton and Yarde - it shows how much depth England have. Joe Simpson is probably the form English 9 too.

Fancy the Saxons to edge this but the main thing is avoiding injuries here....

Good looking team but so disappointed that Wade can't even get a start for the Saxons.

People will say he's young but at the end of the season he'll 24. There's a reason that NZ bring their wingers through very young on the basis of talent and back them to develop in the side. It's because many wingers peak in their mid 20's as all it takes for a top winger to lose their spark is one injury to relieve them of that little bit of pace or agility.

A guy with Wade's talent needs to be backed and allowed to develop at the highest level if we really want to progress into a top side with a decent attacking game.

Ahh well though that's my whinge done..

Other than that it is a very good looking side however. With the Wolfhounds also naming a very strong team it should be an excellent match but I fear that the Saxons are just lacking that bit of experience to pull through against the likes of Strauss, Ross, O'Brien, D'Arcy, Earls and Fitzgerald.

The more I think about Wade being benched the more annoying it is.

Its pretty much acknowledged that Wade and Yarde were due to line up on the wings together the AIs before last until they got injured. Since then, both haven't been fit/in form at the right time to be able to give them a go. Now we get an A team game, that is still pretty respectable given the quality of the opposition, and they still aren't given a go.

Jones, McFadden and Fitzgerald aren't the world's greatest back 3, but would still have given the young pair something to think about defensively, as well as being strong enough themselves that any good wing play by the English guys should not go unnoticed.

The fact that he has been benched for Ashton is even worse, he's been there and got the t shirt, we know what he can and can't do, what more are we going to learn from him? Unless we're planning on changing the game plan, he isn't going to offer any more than the wingers in the senior squad, where as we all know Wade is unique in terms of English wingers. Utter idiocy

blaaaaaa

kunu wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

profitius wrote:Ireland have a decent pack as well. Henderson, SOB, McGrath, Conan and McCarthy players who won't be pushed around too easily.

Yes indeed they are good players. I can't say I see it being a one-sided contest in anyone's favour. There's enough motivation and experience on both sides to make this a hard fought contest. No doubt the weather will be appalling as well so it'll be tight, with Daly's boot possibly a decisive factor. Big Sam will fancy a good go as well and he's finding his feet much more in the carrying stakes.

Gain-line wise I don't see Ireland making big yards. There are some eye-wateringly big-hitters in that Saxons pack with Ewers, Garvey, Kvesic and Webber being some of the most aggressive in the AP.

SOB has boshed the likes of Courtney Lawes (mid signature wallop) before, if he's in decent nick, which remains to be seen, he'll make yards. Really looking forward to the game.

i hope SOB and McGrath stay inujry free. difference for me is that the Saxons are all very much form forwards in teams which are playing really well (Wasps forwards demolished Leinster, Bath forwards did likewise to Toulon away and Glasgow at home). So we know they are fit, strong and very capable. Would be more concerned about the players Wolfhounds are re-introducing about whom so much is expected.

Sorry BamBam, can't agree. Ashton is scoring as well as ever, we need to know if he can still do it at international level, he adds experience to an inexperienced team.

Wade is fantastic ball in hand, but below average in just about every other department, weaker than Ashton in positioning, tackling, covering, kicking. Until he starts to improve his game in departments other than attack, he needs to be kept away from teams that will expose him mercilessly and destroy his confidence.

Ashton and Yarde have both proved they can do it in the past, they now need to show they can do it still.

Ashton in my mind has all the qualities to be a top class international. I jus feel (maybe wrongly) that the defence part of the game is optional in his mind. He doesn't put as much effort in stopping a try than he does in scoring

quinsforever wrote:Wasps forwards demolished Leinster, Bath forwards did likewise to Toulon away and Glasgow at home

I think you've dreamt some of that up Quins. Bath haven't played Toulon and Leinster more than held their own against Wasps on their home patch, particularly at the breakdown, and 2 of the players who caused those problems - Ryan and Conan are starting for the wolfhounds.

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Wasps forwards demolished Leinster, Bath forwards did likewise to Toulon away and Glasgow at home

I think you've dreamt some of that up Quins. Bath haven't played Toulon and Leinster more than held their own against Wasps on their home patch, particularly at the breakdown, and 2 of the players who caused those problems - Ryan and Conan are starting for the wolfhounds.

Toulouse. my phone corrected to Toulon. and the most recent wasps leinster match, rather than the one 3 months ago, was all wasps in the forwards. 2 tries from rolling mauls in the last 20 wasnt it? and the ref seemed to favour leinster all match after getting the johnston incident in the first min. Haskell dominated at the breakdown too iirc. Leinster only looked dangerous in the first 30 minutes when they got quick ball for their structured back moves.

Fully expect the wolfhounds to win the game, Not much between the 2 sides but experience and cohesion should be enough.

Wade wont play for England under Lancaster. Nowell and Watson are ahead of him in to many facets of the game.

quinsforever wrote:

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Wasps forwards demolished Leinster, Bath forwards did likewise to Toulon away and Glasgow at home

I think you've dreamt some of that up Quins. Bath haven't played Toulon and Leinster more than held their own against Wasps on their home patch, particularly at the breakdown, and 2 of the players who caused those problems - Ryan and Conan are starting for the wolfhounds.

Toulouse. my phone corrected to Toulon. and the most recent wasps leinster match, rather than the one 3 months ago, was all wasps in the forwards. 2 tries from rolling mauls in the last 20 wasnt it? and the ref seemed to favour leinster all match after getting the johnston incident in the first min. Haskell dominated at the breakdown too iirc. Leinster only looked dangerous in the first 30 minutes when they got quick ball for their structured back moves.

The Wolfhounds pack might as well not bother showing up such is their emphatic write-off.

Should be a good game, I'd love an open flowing game of rugby. However, I expect the players to be rusty putting new plays together, learning to play with new teammates, different calls, tactics, etc.

Certainly there is a sense that this game carries a little more intrigue this year, with England putting out a pretty formidable team against an Irish side with four Lions. 

An area of particular interest for me is the midfield, no doubt all eyes will be on Burgess but from an Irish perspective I will be watching Keith Earls closely. Pace, agility, handling and all round footballing ability are all top notch while his defensive game has come on tremendously. The signs are that Schmidt is a fan and I am hoping this is the year Earls really does his talent justice.

Considering the likely weather conditions I would make the Saxons slight favourites. 
Their squad is full of inform players and I think they could have too much up front. Quins has a point that the Irish provinces have looked very underpowered this year, how much of that was due to injuries including SOB, Healy but also McGrath and Mike Ross we shall soon find out. 
However, if the Wolfhounds can achieve at least parity in the forwards then I'd be confident of a win, the team chemistry should be that bit better and I also feel our halfbacks have an edge.

These games have tended to flatter to deceive a bit but on paper this match isn't far off test standard. Let's hope we get an even contest, some strong individual performances and of course no injuries.

The Saxons are good on paper, but they really have been rubbish the last few times they've played, so I'll believe they can play well when they actually do. I'm looking forward to seeing Slade, Thomas, Ewers, Pennell, and Burgess.

for both teams, there are going to be some players who will really want to put a marker down, or for whom its last chance saloon.

burgess, ashton, yarde, garvey, waldrom, wade, slade

SOB, D'Arcy, Madigan, Ross, Earls

lets hope its at least a little bit dry as it could be a much better game than the last 2

quinsforever wrote:

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Wasps forwards demolished Leinster, Bath forwards did likewise to Toulon away and Glasgow at home

I think you've dreamt some of that up Quins. Bath haven't played Toulon and Leinster more than held their own against Wasps on their home patch, particularly at the breakdown, and 2 of the players who caused those problems - Ryan and Conan are starting for the wolfhounds.

Toulouse. my phone corrected to Toulon. and the most recent wasps leinster match, rather than the one 3 months ago, was all wasps in the forwards. 2 tries from rolling mauls in the last 20 wasnt it? and the ref seemed to favour leinster all match after getting the johnston incident in the first min. Haskell dominated at the breakdown too iirc. Leinster only looked dangerous in the first 30 minutes when they got quick ball for their structured back moves.

On the other hand, Quins' forwards did demolish Leinster...

Wade has played for England, if only in Argentina. I'd say one thing that came across from those games (Game? cant remember if it was just the one with the call up to the Lions) was that he has very good hands for a winger, and threw some very nice passes.

His biggest problem has been the inevitable injuries, and the time taken to recover form and fitness. Had he been luckier with fitness I think he would have had more caps. I have no idea if he would be first choice or not, but with May, Watson, Yarde and Nowell we arent exactly short of options.

Josh Beaumont training with Saxons as cover
How far down the order is a certain 6/8 ?

Wish this wasn't on Sky - I'm at home with the kids tonight so won't be able to watch it (not got Sky). Gutted as this is set to be a cracking game. I'd give the edge to the Wolfhounds - cohesion and home advantage, as well as some world class talent with experience peppering the side. SOB in the forwards, D'Arcy in the backs amongst others.
Good looking Saxons side though - and plenty to play for in a world cup year!

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Wasps forwards demolished Leinster, Bath forwards did likewise to Toulon away and Glasgow at home

I think you've dreamt some of that up Quins. Bath haven't played Toulon and Leinster more than held their own against Wasps on their home patch, particularly at the breakdown, and 2 of the players who caused those problems - Ryan and Conan are starting for the wolfhounds.

Toulouse. my phone corrected to Toulon. and the most recent wasps leinster match, rather than the one 3 months ago, was all wasps in the forwards. 2 tries from rolling mauls in the last 20 wasnt it? and the ref seemed to favour leinster all match after getting the johnston incident in the first min. Haskell dominated at the breakdown too iirc. Leinster only looked dangerous in the first 30 minutes when they got quick ball for their structured back moves.

On the other hand, Quins' forwards did demolish Leinster...

Well its a good job Lancaster didn't pick any!

Bit worried about the role the weather could play - the Saxons have a big size advantage especially in the backs. Schmidt has obviously picked a backline to play a bit of rugby, rather than match the Saxons physically and athleticism (not that we could anyways) - so if it becomes attritional then that will favour the Saxons with their big ball carriers.

The Wolfhounds will need quick ball to have a chance here - move the Saxons around and be clinical with the ball in hand - use a clever clicking game to turn Ashton and Yarde around.

For me it's the experience and guile of the Wolfhounds versus the power and pace of the Saxons.

Is Schmidt coaching the Wolfhounds then or does he have a deputy?

I expect an Irish victory as the Saxons are never as good as they look on paper and that's a very good Wolfhounds side who've played together before (mostly).

sickofwendy wrote:Josh Beaumont training with Saxons as cover
How far down the order is a certain 6/8 ?

Who the hell is Josh Beaumont

sickofwendy wrote:Josh Beaumont training with Saxons as cover
How far down the order is a certain 6/8 ?

Thought Armitage was in the cooler anyhow?

BamBam wrote:

sickofwendy wrote:Josh Beaumont training with Saxons as cover
How far down the order is a certain 6/8 ?

Who the hell is Josh Beaumont

Bill's son.

yappysnap wrote:Is Schmidt coaching the Wolfhounds then or does he have a deputy?

Dan McFarland is the coach. He's assistant coach at Connacht and has previously taken the Emerging Ireland team.