England Saxons vs Irish Wolfhounds

First topic message reminder :

The England Saxons face Ireland Wolfhounds at Irish Independent Park on Friday, January 30 in Cork. Given that the six nations are too bloomin far away and this is a big RWC year with many players battling over a place in international squads i'm looking forward to this one. Who do we think should be in both teams. This is my england team

Corbisiero
George
Brookes
Kitchener
Kruis
Croft
Kvesic
Waldrom

Wigglesworth
Cipriani
Yarde
Slade
Joseph
Rokodunguni
Foden

Thomas
Cowan-Dickie
Vunipola
Parling
Clark
Dickson
Burgess
Myler

Boss should be nowhere near a Wolfhouns team I'm afraid as much as I love the guy. He has been our worst player this season and his "experience" should certainly not make up for that. We should maybe look to put Hart on the bench instead (covers 9 and 10) or even a Caoilan Blade/Luke McGrath.

I was just thinking that he was involved last year

Ye was interesting to see that young James Hart captained Grenoble in their 2 point loss away to london irish. Obviously highly rated by Jackman. Unfortunately I dont see him making an irish squad while in france.

Id like to see Fitzgerald or Earls (where has he been playing since coming back from injury?) given the 13 Jersey for the wolfhounds myself. Apparently henshaw injured his ankle in the first 5 minutes against Exeter and finished the game. Can they still qualify for the quarters of the challange cup? Hope he's not risked

How's Chris Farrell doing down at Grenoble ?

I agree with most that I'd like to see a few fringe EPS players get a chance now we're approaching the World Cup. Expecting (i.e. not exactly what I'd pick!) an EPS along the lines of:

Props - Marler, M Vunipola, Corbs, Wilson, Brookes + Cole if/when fit
Hooker - Hartley, Webber, Youngs
Second row - Parling, Attwood, Kitchener, Kruis
Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Haskell
Number 8 - B Vunipola, Waldrom

Scrum half - Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth
Fly half - Ford, Farrell, Myler
Centre - Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond, Joseph + Manu if/when fit
Wing - May, Watson, Yarde, Wade
Full back - Brown, Foden, Goode

1.Mullan
2.George
3.Brookes
4.Matthews
5.Kitchener
6.Garvey
7.Fraser
8.Ewers

9.Wigglesworth
10.Cipriani

11.Rokoduguni
12.Eastmond
13.Slade
14.Wade
15.Nowell

16.Cowan-Dickie
17.Waller
18.Thomas
19.Itoje
20.Gibson
21.Dickson
22.Burns
23.Devoto

On the scrum halfs - If I thought Robson could get a look in pre RWC I'd pick him. As he isn't getting game time at Gloucs (hence the summer move) I can't see that happening. As such a shootout between the two most likely 9's to be competing with Youngs and Care for the World Cup squad could be productive.

I would love to see Auterac get a look in but with Marler, Corbs, Vunipola, Mullan and Waller around that isn't such an easy task!

BamBam wrote:How's Chris Farrell doing down at Grenoble ?

Very well by all accounts but he is playing outside Ireland and will not be considered.
Likes of Olding, Reid etc will get selected in front of him.

king_carlos wrote:I agree with most that I'd like to see a few fringe EPS players get a chance now we're approaching the World Cup. Expecting (i.e. not exactly what I'd pick!) an EPS along the lines of:

Props - Marler, M Vunipola, Corbs, Wilson, Brookes + Cole if/when fit
Hooker - Hartley, Webber, Youngs
Second row - Parling, Attwood, Kitchener, Kruis
Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Haskell
Number 8 - B Vunipola, Waldrom

Scrum half - Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth
Fly half - Ford, Farrell, Myler
Centre - Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond, Joseph + Manu if/when fit
Wing - May, Watson, Yarde, Wade
Full back - Brown, Foden, Goode

1.Mullan
2.George
3.Brookes
4.Matthews Garvey
5.Kitchener
6.Garvey Calum Clark
7.Fraser
8.Ewers

9.Wigglesworth Robson
10.Cipriani

11.Rokoduguni
12.Eastmond
13.Slade
14.Wade
15.Nowell

16.Cowan-Dickie
17.Waller
18.Thomas
19.Itoje
20.GibsonMark Wilson
21.Dickson
22.Burns
23.Devoto

On the scrum halfs - If I thought Robson could get a look in pre RWC I'd pick him. As he isn't getting game time at Gloucs (hence the summer move) I can't see that happening. As such a shootout between the two most likely 9's to be competing with Youngs and Care for the World Cup squad could be productive.

I would love to see Auterac get a look in but with Marler, Corbs, Vunipola, Mullan and Waller around that isn't such an easy task!

Made a couple of changes.
Garvey and Clark can push for bench / starting spots in the 6n.

Keep dreaming about Garvey. Never going to be considered for the mystery reason. Seriously does anyone know what he actually did to pee off the management?

Ah Garvey will never play internationally again. No doubts on that.

But Clark could really push himself into contention with a strong performance in the Saxons.

He doesn't fit the Lancaster mould of 6.5; being an all round work horse like Wood, Robshaw, Haskell, Clark etc, they are all a very similar type of backrow versitle player. Garvey is a massive massive man and more of a 5.5, lock come flanker. He would add some serious grunt to the england pack, probably more of a genuine ball carrier than the other names, but one would imagine slower work rate being around the 20stone mark (i know he keeps going for 80 at club level but would imagine him puffing against the SH teams in comparison to wood, robshaw, haskell). Lancs does go for athletic all round forwards with even his first choice locks being able to play 6 (launchberry and Lawes). Im not saying I wouldn't give him a shot, i would certainly like him to see saxons time again but can see that he doesn't fit Lancasters mould.

My (repeated) view is that I would like to see Garvey play for England.  If the rest of the English pack is very athletic then Garvey compliments this by being a very tight blindside forward.  He does seem fairly mobile and does a lot of good work round the ruck and maul for Bath, which enables the other forwards to play a bit looser.

I am just worried that England could be outmuscled and sometimes very athletic players can be forced into an "arm wrestle" and not achive what they are trying to do.

Ironic also if England pick athletic forwards but just crash/bang centres.

Garvey impressed me vs Toulouse. sirtidychris I agree that he's definitely a different option.

I do sometimes feel that England lack enough power in the backrow aside from Morgan/Billy at no 8.

Excellent Saxons squad announced.

For ease of reference:

Forwards

Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Christian Day (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
Matt Garvey (Bath Rugby)
Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby)
Thomas Waldrom (Exeter Chiefs)
Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, captain)
Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Christian Wade (Wasps)

Seriously pleased for the likes of Garvey and Ewers who deserve their recognition hugely. Although very strange to see Ross Harrison in there and not Jamie George! My side out of that lot would be:

1. M Mullan
2. L Cowan-Dickie
3. K Brookes
4. M Itoje
5. C Day
6. M Garvey
7. M Kvesic
8. T Waldrom
9. L Dickson (c)
10. H Slade
11. M Yarde
12. S Burgess
13. E Daly
14. C Wade
15. C Pennell

16. R Harrison 17. A Waller 18. H Thomas 19. T Croft 20. D Ewers 21. J Simpson 22. O Devoto 23. C Ashton

That's a damn good Saxons side I reckon. Could do with more than just the one game together though.

Isn't Harrison a prop? I imagine Webber would start at hooker with LCD off the bench

George might be left with Saracens because of Brits' injury.  Potentially Saracens asked if they could keep him (they're still missing 9 players) or Lancaster thought he would be better of starting for Saracens whilst Brits is injured than potentially benching to Webber

I posted this on the other thread too, but I would go

Waller, Webber, Brookes
Day, Garvey
Croft, Kvesic, Ewers
Dickson (c), Slade
Burgess Daly
Wade, Yarde, Pennell

BamBam wrote:Isn't Harrison a prop? I imagine Webber would start at hooker with LCD off the bench

My bad, brain fart. Webber it is to start.

HammerofThunor wrote:George might be left with Saracens because of Brits' injury.  Potentially Saracens asked if they could keep him (they're still missing 9 players) or Lancaster thought he would be better of starting for Saracens whilst Brits is injured than potentially benching to Webber

Yep that's a good point. I like LCD a lot but George has been brilliant for one of the top teams and stating every week.

BamBam wrote:I posted this on the other thread too, but I would go

Waller, Webber, Brookes
Day, Garvey
Croft, Kvesic, Ewers
Dickson (c), Slade
Burgess Daly
Wade, Yarde, Pennell

I like the side but I can't see Garvey being happy with starting in the SR after his move to BS. It'll probably be sodden out there and having Itoje in there and Garvey/Kvesic/Ewers at the back would be a heavy weight pack.

Chjw131 wrote:

BamBam wrote:I posted this on the other thread too, but I would go

Waller, Webber, Brookes
Day, Garvey
Croft, Kvesic, Ewers
Dickson (c), Slade
Burgess Daly
Wade, Yarde, Pennell

I like the side but I can't see Garvey being happy with starting in the SR after his move to BS. It'll probably be sodden out there and having Itoje in there and Garvey/Kvesic/Ewers at the back would be a heavy weight pack.

True, I figured as Day, Garvey and Itoje are realistically the only lock options, and I wasn't sure whether they would be willing to throw Itoje in to start, although I reckon he would do pretty well if they did

Who coaches the Saxons these days?

BamBam wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

BamBam wrote:I posted this on the other thread too, but I would go

Waller, Webber, Brookes
Day, Garvey
Croft, Kvesic, Ewers
Dickson (c), Slade
Burgess Daly
Wade, Yarde, Pennell

I like the side but I can't see Garvey being happy with starting in the SR after his move to BS. It'll probably be sodden out there and having Itoje in there and Garvey/Kvesic/Ewers at the back would be a heavy weight pack.

True, I figured as Day, Garvey and Itoje are realistically the only lock options, and I wasn't sure whether they would be willing to throw Itoje in to start, although I reckon he would do pretty well if they did

Who coaches the Saxons these days?

John Callard. Can't say i've ever been overwhelmed by any previous Saxons performances. A difficult task though. Nick Walshe would've been my pick for them.

Very strong Saxons squad - given the injuries we have at the minute I can see this being a drubbing unfortunately, even with home advantage.....

rodders wrote:Very strong Saxons squad - given the injuries we have at the minute I can see this being a drubbing unfortunately, even with home advantage.....

Surely not, I don't think i've seen the Wolfhounds drubbed. It's certainly a more expereinced side than the usual Saxons outfit and some big carriers in there. Here's to the usual appalling conditions and a 13-14 Saxons victory.

Yep. Will be an interesting game regardless but the chances of the Saxons playing to their potential can't be great

I can see something along these lines for the Saxons game though I'm not 100% on injuries.

Healy
Casey
Furlong
Foley
Henderson
Diack
O’Brien
Copeland
Marmion
JJ
Healy
Reid (think he may be injured otherwise Fitzgerald)
Fitzgerald (If Reid injured Earls)
Conway
Leader

Strauss, Bent, White, O’Callaghan, Conan, McGrath, Humphries?, Earls

Agree with the above comment, I think the Saxons have been poor recently despite putting out some fairly strong sides.

They need to put in a couple of good performances.

Sub, I'd expect to see all the players who are coming back from injuries and haven't had a huge amount of gametime recently or have not played a lot under Schmidt to start (such as Fitzgerald, Earls, Payne & McFadden) to start.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Agree with the above comment, I think the Saxons have been poor recently despite putting out some fairly strong sides.

They need to put in a couple of good performances.

I haven't seen a decent Saxons performance since Mallinder was coach. Some of the worst performances were under Lancaster

Chjw131 wrote:

rodders wrote:Very strong Saxons squad - given the injuries we have at the minute I can see this being a drubbing unfortunately, even with home advantage.....

Surely not, I don't think i've seen the Wolfhounds drubbed.

First time for everything - I see out forwards getting mushed. With all the injuries I just can't see there being enough depth there in a lot of positions to be competitive in this.

HammerofThunor wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Agree with the above comment, I think the Saxons have been poor recently despite putting out some fairly strong sides.

They need to put in a couple of good performances.

I haven't seen a decent Saxons performance since Mallinder was coach.  Some of the worst performances were under Lancaster

I was about to say they used to be pretty good under Lancaster. He took over the first team in early 2012 and the Saxons promptly lost 35-0 to Scotland A. I'd attribute their decline more to the end of the Churchill Cup though.

Sin é wrote:Sub, I'd expect to see all the players who are coming back from injuries and haven't had a huge amount of gametime recently or have not played a lot under Schmidt to start (such as Fitzgerald, Earls, Payne & McFadden) to start.

You're probably on the money there Sin. I'm factoring in injury doubts for the senior team as well as giving some newbies (Healy, Conway and Leader) a bit of game time which is what the Wolfhounds is supposed to be about. I've been really impressed with Healy at Connacht this season. Looks to have real gas.
With Henshaw nursing the dodgy ankle I'd say he'll keep Payne wrapped in cotton wool. I think Fitz and Earls at 12-13 wouild be well worth a look. Don't think Mcfadden will make the senior 23 and Joe knows what he can do so don't see much point in him taking up a spot.
We're looking a bit short on 12's at the moment which is why I was looking at Reid and Dave McSharry could come in to the mix. Haven't even mentioned Gilroy or the new(ish) Munster winger whose name escapes me just now. Not bad depth to choose from for the second string.

rodders wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

rodders wrote:Very strong Saxons squad - given the injuries we have at the minute I can see this being a drubbing unfortunately, even with home advantage.....

Surely not, I don't think i've seen the Wolfhounds drubbed.

First time for everything - I see out forwards getting mushed. With all the injuries I just can't see there being enough depth there in a lot of positions to be competitive in this.

In all likelyhood, Healy, Henderson and O'Brien will be involved to get some gametime. With Furlong, Copeland, Diack etc to choose from I don't think we're in too bad a position.

Submachine wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

rodders wrote:Very strong Saxons squad - given the injuries we have at the minute I can see this being a drubbing unfortunately, even with home advantage.....

Surely not, I don't think i've seen the Wolfhounds drubbed.

First time for everything - I see out forwards getting mushed. With all the injuries I just can't see there being enough depth there in a lot of positions to be competitive in this.

In all likelyhood, Healy, Henderson and O'Brien will be involved to get some gametime. With Furlong, Copeland, Diack etc to choose from I don't think we're in too bad a position.

Exactly and neither of those guys can be anywhere near match fitness. Copeland has been out injured too.

Who will be fly-half? Hanaran, Leader or Humphreys I'd imagine. We can barely put together a senior squad let alone a wolfhounds side at the minute.

rodders wrote:

Submachine wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

rodders wrote:Very strong Saxons squad - given the injuries we have at the minute I can see this being a drubbing unfortunately, even with home advantage.....

Surely not, I don't think i've seen the Wolfhounds drubbed.

First time for everything - I see out forwards getting mushed. With all the injuries I just can't see there being enough depth there in a lot of positions to be competitive in this.

In all likelyhood, Healy, Henderson and O'Brien will be involved to get some gametime. With Furlong, Copeland, Diack etc to choose from I don't think we're in too bad a position.

Exactly and neither of those guys can be anywhere near match fitness. Copeland has been out injured too.

Who will be fly-half? Hanaran, Leader or Humphreys I'd imagine. We can barely put together a senior squad let alone a wolfhounds side at the minute.

Well that glass is half full to me.

Half full of what?

Not since Apollo Creed announced the fight with Ivan Drago have I been so concerned about a sporting contest.

rodders wrote:Half full of what?

Quality, well rested, hungry (if short of match fitness) international rugby players.

Submachine wrote:

rodders wrote:Half full of what?

Quality, well rested, hungry (if short of match fitness) international rugby players.

In which case i'm looking forward to seeing this match. There is a nice blend in the Saxons of players with a point to prove and some youth. When do Ireland announce a Wolfhounds squad?

Chjw131 wrote:

Submachine wrote:

rodders wrote:Half full of what?

Quality, well rested, hungry (if short of match fitness) international rugby players.

In which case i'm looking forward to seeing this match. There is a nice blend in the Saxons of players with a point to prove and some youth. When do Ireland announce a Wolfhounds squad?

After the weekend. Johnny Sexton is the only player who might have to ask his employer for time off! The rest can travel at the drop of a hat as they are all employed by the IRFU.

I'm assuming it's broadcast on Sky. Do you think they'll still pick Hanrahan even though he's off to Saints?

I'm not sure it will be on TV in England TBH. I seem to remember that RTE usually pick it up when this fixture is played in Ireland and it is almost impossible to find a stream for it. Hope I'm wrong though!

Sky Sports 2 7:30

It's on Sky Sports 2

D'oh, beaten to it!

If skysports have picked it up then they are expecting England to give Ireland a drubbing.

Excellent (about it being on, not the drubbing part... Actually about the drubbing part too. )

rodders wrote:If skysports have picked it up then they are expecting England to give Ireland a drubbing.

Or they're expecting the players they cover each week in the pro 12 to give the BT boys a bit of a bashing.

There will be no drubbings! These games are usually dire and low scoring.

There is no value in a drubbing from either side in a game like this. Both sides want an intense high quality game.

From an English point of view there is a lot to be excited about in the squad. I'm really pleased to see Itoje, Cowan-Dickie, Devoto, Daly and Wade in there. When you consider players like Launchbury, the Vunipolas, Watson, Yarde and Nowell around the senior squad too, the excellent U20s who have been coming through for the last few years are really starting to make an impact.

Sky Sports have had it for a while now, not a new thing.

From the other post (thank you RugbyFan)

England Saxons squad

Forwards

Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Christian Day (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
Matt Garvey (Bath Rugby)
Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby)
Thomas Waldrom (Exeter Chiefs)
Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, captain)
Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Christian Wade (Wasps)