Kingspan Stadium to Host Pro12 Final

First topic message reminder :

New development for the League,


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30980843

Final is going to be annoced in advance from now on,

TBH I don't like this idea at all.

All the hosts of the final so far have been able to sell it out before hand, it rewards the team that finishes higher in the league, and what happens is say the final is Ospreys V Glasgow are all these fans expected to travel to Belfast?

Better have the higher team in the League host it, other wise I can see the final being mostly played out in with mostly neutral crowds.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The laws for the final venue choice, stipulate that there has to be two 5 star hotels - 1 for each finalist

This is getting better. I'm now laughing out loud at this joke of a competition.

So that rules out all of Wales then

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Why could they not have voted for Scotstoun?

Because it isn't eligible.

So they shortlisted one that isn't eligible?

Looks that way. Doesn't surprise me. Incompetents.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The laws for the final venue choice, stipulate that there has to be two 5 star hotels - 1 for each finalist

This is getting better. I'm now laughing out loud at this joke of a competition.

So that rules out all of Wales then

Basically.

By hook or by crook (mostly crook) the final will never be outside of Ireland.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Because people are saying that everybody voted for Ulster on merit based on it's outstanding bid -  because Ulster are so amazing at everything therefore the pro12 is an amazing league. Probably the best in the world infact.

Best. Summary. Ever.

I cannot believe, especially the Ulster fans on here, how they cannot see the sense of corruption in all of this.

LordDowlais wrote:I cannot believe, especially the Ulster fans on here, how they cannot see the sense of corruption in all of this.

Because not everyone lives in the Twilight Zone?

LordDowlais wrote:I cannot believe, especially the Ulster fans on here, how they cannot see the sense of corruption in all of this.

They would have to posses a sense of shame first.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I cannot believe, especially the Ulster fans on here, how they cannot see the sense of corruption in all of this.

They would have to posses a sense of shame first.

We do really

LordDowlais wrote:I cannot believe, especially the Ulster fans on here, how they cannot see the sense of corruption in all of this.

And I can't believe how unself-aware Ospreys fans are.

I had the utmost sympathy for the shared frustration, and you've completely exhausted that. Thsi thread manages to be both tedious and hysterical - the Perez Hilton of 606v2.

One team has, as yet, had to give up a home final. One. Precisely one. Ulster. To play in our adversaries' backyard. Ospreys have earned nothing yet this season. Nothing has been taken from them. Nothing that hasn't been taken from Zebre or Dragons or Edinburgh - a final they can't anyway afford to host.

I fully expect to hear, if they don't come top, that it was because of the disllusionment and heartbreak of knowing they couldn't have a home final.

Dowlais said when I asked him about Ulster having to move our final, it didn't affect him - he didn't care.

I know precssiely what he means.

This isn't about the Ospreys. This is about the corrupt sham that is the Pro12.

Chunky Norwich wrote:This isn't about the Ospreys. This is about the corrupt sham that is the Pro12.

Serious question, how would you solve the problem of having only one week between semi and final? Also, you see the Pro12 as corrupt in how they have handled where the final is to be. What would you have done differently?

Munchkin wrote:
Serious question, how would you resolve the problem of having only one week between semi and final?

There is also only 1 week between the final round of matches and the semi finals. That doesn't seem to be a problem for ticketing, tv sponsors etc - So I would have done the same thing as then.

Also, you see the Pro12 as corrupt in how they have handled where the final is to be. What would you have done differently?

The "1 week" excuse appears to be a fallacy. The organisers have even said that if it doesn't work this season then they'll revert back to the leaders hosting the final next year. (when the leaders are Irish I expect).

As the Ospreys have said, "they're against the proposal for a change from highest placed team has home advantage to a neutral venue as they felt that the competition was not yet at that stage"

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Serious question, how would you resolve the problem of having only one week between semi and final?

There is also only 1 week between the final round of matches and the semi finals. That doesn't seem to be a problem for ticketing, tv sponsors etc - So I would have done the same thing as then.

Also, you see the Pro12 as corrupt in how they have handled where the final is to be. What would you have done differently?

The "1 week" excuse appears to be a fallacy. The organisers have even said that if it doesn't work this season then they'll revert back to the leaders hosting the final next year. (when the leaders are Irish I expect).

As the Ospreys have said, "they're against the proposal for a change from highest placed team has home advantage to a neutral venue as they felt that the competition was not yet at that stage"

To be honest, I think I agree with you that it is a bit of a fallacy, and will continue to believe so unless someone more enlightened than me, informs me otherwise. It isn't as if it hasn't been done before, is it?

I really hope they do revert back to the leader hosting.

You haven't answered the second question You accuse them of corruption. What would you have done differently?

Munchkin wrote:

You haven't answered the second question  You accuse them of corruption. What would you have done differently?

I have. I said the lack of requirement to change to this system, would negate any possible allegations of this kind in the first place.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

You haven't answered the second question  You accuse them of corruption. What would you have done differently?

I have. I said the lack of requirement to change to this system, would negate any possible allegations of this kind in the first place.

But it has been changed, and allegations have been made. I'm trying to get to the core of where these allegations come from. The conspiracy theory is that there has been some underhand dealing by the Irish, in awarding the final to Ulster. My question is, could it have been done differently, and if so, then how? If not, then what basis is there to accuse the Pro12/Irish of corruption?

Also, I am not blaming Ulster for this or the Ulster Fans, I am blaming the corrupt Pro12, and I am having a go at the Irish fans, and more so Ulster fans for supporting it.

How have the Pro12 been corrupt in this?

HammerofThunor wrote:How have the Pro12 been corrupt in this?

The final should have never been put up for auction in the first place.

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:How have the Pro12 been corrupt in this?

The final should have never been put up for auction in the first place.

But how is that corruption?

Because of all of this short-listing bollox, and rules about hotels and stadiums and the what not, of all the staduims short listed, from what I am to be beleived, three out of the five were from Ireland, then of the one's that were left, Glasgow were not allowed to have it as they did not meet the standards. As I have said, every final will more than likely be held in Ireland from now on.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, I am not blaming Ulster for this or the Ulster Fans, I am blaming the corrupt Pro12, and I am having a go at the Irish fans, and more so Ulster fans for supporting it.

I don't see many really supporting it. Most don't agree with it and have tried to find possible reasons other than conspiracy theories of corruption to understand why the change has occurred. Nobody is jumping up and down shouting that this is a great idea!

Don Alfonso wrote:

wayne wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Can someone post a link to the letter from the Pro!2 to the OSC?

And Chunky, why do you read "parties" as excluding the clubs? The tweet outlines "!2 clubs and 4 unions" - why does "parties" pertain only to "unions"?

Why don't you tweet the Pro12 and ask for clarification?

I've told you where it is, why don't you go and do it yourself?

Well, when someone asked me to post the Pro12 tweet, despite that fact that I'd already said where it was, I did. I expcted the same cvility. Never mind.

Don, sorry if it sounded aggressive, but I've said on here a number of times I don't know and I have no inclination to learn how to copy an article from somewhere else, and put it on here or any other Forum, that is why I tell people exactly where to find it.
I alluded to it earlier a hero of Irish Rugby said it was a nonsense to change the way it was altered, that player was Rob Kearney on twitter.

LordDowlais wrote:Because of all of this short-listing bollox, and rules about hotels and stadiums and the what not, of all the staduims short listed, from what I am to be beleived, three out of the five were from Ireland, then of the one's that were left, Glasgow were not allowed to have it as they did not meet the standards. As I have said, every final will more than likely be held in Ireland from now on.

But the criteria is supposed to be the same as always. If the Regions decided not to put it forward for moral reasons...how is that corruption?

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Because of all of this short-listing bollox, and rules about hotels and stadiums and the what not, of all the staduims short listed, from what I am to be beleived, three out of the five were from Ireland, then of the one's that were left, Glasgow were not allowed to have it as they did not meet the standards. As I have said, every final will more than likely be held in Ireland from now on.

But the criteria is supposed to be the same as always. If the Regions decided not to put it forward for moral reasons...how is that corruption?

Becuase from what we can believe, there was no point in them even trying. Anyway, you say regions as if they were ALL short-listed, they were not, only Swansea were on that short-list, if the list being banded about is correct, why was Cardiff not short listed ?

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Because of all of this short-listing bollox, and rules about hotels and stadiums and the what not, of all the staduims short listed, from what I am to be beleived, three out of the five were from Ireland, then of the one's that were left, Glasgow were not allowed to have it as they did not meet the standards. As I have said, every final will more than likely be held in Ireland from now on.

But the criteria is supposed to be the same as always. If the Regions decided not to put it forward for moral reasons...how is that corruption?

Becuase from what we can believe, there was no point in them even trying.

But that's not true is it? Wayne has said that the Ospreys didn't put a bid in because they were against the proposal. So they could have put a bid in. Although it would be a financial risk if no-one turned up.

[quote="HammerofThunor" Although it would be a financial risk if no-one turned up.][/quote]

Well they had better hope an Irish province gets to this next final then, because if it is between Ospreys and Glasgow, the very generous Belfast public will have to put their hands in their pockets to fill out the stadium.

Well I'm getting my ticket on Monday and I plan to go whatever happens.

I think Belfast's record with recent sporting events will have been a big factor. If we can get massive crowds for a cycling event no-one had heard of before it came we can sell this game out.

Alright. Let’s look honestly and clear-eyed at this idea of corruption.

For me personally, the following things would have to be clarified:

What is the difference between last years’ criteria and this year’s criteria? If we start at the premise that last years’ criteria were reasonable – a justified list of conditions or guarantees for any team that earned a home final – how have they changed? Have they been made more stringent? Have the financial guarantees shifted? How do these changes benefit the Irish teams?

According to Wales Online, only Ospreys would have been able to fulfil the stadium capacity requirement. So all three of the other regions were unable to bid. Two years ago, Ulster were unable to fulfil the same requirement and had to cede home advantage. Is this corruption? It appears to be equivalence.

Were Glasgow disqualified for being ineligible, after being shortlisted? What evidence is there for this? Every media outlet says that it came down to a choice between the two, and people voted unanimously for Belfast. Why does no-one say that Glasgow were then found ineligible? Why did the SRU not vote for Glasgow’s bid?

How long does it take to organise a capacity sporting final? How long does it take to sell out tickets, on average, over previous years?

The Pro12 have said that ““Proceeds for the final are split among the 12 teams, with the two finalists getting a sizeable proportion, and the rest being divided.” Is this corrupt? Is that different from last year?

Belfast have promised three day s of events, with things being organised for the Friday, Saturday and Sunday, with the stated aim being to make it festival-like. The announcement saw support from Sports Minister Carál Ní Chuilín, Belfast Lord Mayor Cllr Nichola Mallon, Enterprise, Trade and Investment Minister Arlene Foster and Anne McMullan, Visit Belfast's Director of Marketing.  Belfast has recently hosted a world title boxing fight and the Giro D’Italia. Is this not a good proposal? How does it compare to Glasgow’s?


And for my own curiosity:
Ospreys said that “Any bid for a final at the Liberty would have to be made in conjunction with the Stadium Management Company and Swansea Council. Ospreys advised they will assess the success or not of this year before considering whether it is in the Ospreys interest or not for future years to make a joint bid.” Why would the removal of a home final for the top team be moral next ear, if it is immoral this year? What makes it acceptable next year? Why would they bother to “assess the success” if it is a point of principle?


I'm not imterested in supposition.

What makes it acceptable next season, is there is more clarity in what is going to happen with the final and there (probably) won't be a feeling amongst a fair few that the goalposts have somewhat been shifted midway through a season.

But then Pro12 had no choice, but to move those goalposts mid season.

Risca Rev wrote:What makes it acceptable next season, is there is more clarity in what is going to happen with the final and there (probably) won't be a feeling amongst a fair few that the goalposts have somewhat been shifted midway through a season.

"To confirm, we were against the decision to move away from highest-placed finisher gets home advantage, but abide by the decision. We were invited to bid, but felt it would be hypocritical to do so given our stated position on the proposal of a neutral venue."


They're against a neutral venue. Against the decision to "move away from highest-placed finisher gets home advantage".

No mention of clarity, no mention oif the issue being that things are changing midway through a season.

Sorry - Risca - don't mean to be brusque, but there is an absolute dearth of facts and verifiable statements in this debate. Your explanation bears no relation to theirs.

Don Alfonso wrote:

According to Wales Online, only Ospreys would have been able to fulfil the stadium capacity requirement. So all three of the other regions were unable to bid. Two years ago, Ulster were unable to fulfil the same requirement and had to cede home advantage. Is this corruption? It appears to be equivalence.

According to the Ospreys the Pro12 regulations now state that the venue needs 2 FIVE STAR HOTELS nearby to accommodate the teams.

Therefore, none of the Welsh regions have the required facilities at their grounds to ever host the final.

Fantastic.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

According to Wales Online, only Ospreys would have been able to fulfil the stadium capacity requirement. So all three of the other regions were unable to bid. Two years ago, Ulster were unable to fulfil the same requirement and had to cede home advantage. Is this corruption? It appears to be equivalence.

According to the Ospreys the Pro12 regulations now state that the venue needs 2 FIVE STAR HOTELS nearby to accommodate the teams.

Therefore, none of the Welsh regions have the required facilities at their grounds to ever host the final.

Fantastic.

But Wales is Tiny. You have the Celtic Manor on the M4 in Newport and Vale Hotel just off the M4 north of Cardiff. They're both within an hours drive of Swansea. They're just off the top of my head - my hotels of Wales knowledge is not up to much.

How close does it have to be?!

Griff wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

According to Wales Online, only Ospreys would have been able to fulfil the stadium capacity requirement. So all three of the other regions were unable to bid. Two years ago, Ulster were unable to fulfil the same requirement and had to cede home advantage. Is this corruption? It appears to be equivalence.

According to the Ospreys the Pro12 regulations now state that the venue needs 2 FIVE STAR HOTELS nearby to accommodate the teams.

Therefore, none of the Welsh regions have the required facilities at their grounds to ever host the final.

Fantastic.

But Wales is Tiny.  You have the Celtic Manor on the M4 in Newport and Vale Hotel just off the M4 north of Cardiff.  They're both within an hours drive of Swansea.  They're just off the top of my head - my hotels of Wales knowledge is not up to much.

How close does it have to be?!

No idea. But the team travelling from Newport to Swansea on match day is far from ideal if you know M4 traffic. The Vale resort isn't 5 star.

Yes I do know the M4 traffic.  Fine on the weekends, when the game would be I expect.

edit: Didn't know the Vale was not 5 star. Oh well. Any other suggestions 606ers???

Griff wrote:Yes I do know the M4 traffic.  Fine on the weekends, when the game would be I expect.

edit:  Didn't know the Vale was not 5 star.  Oh well.  Any other suggestions 606ers???

The only other 5 star is the St David's Hotel, Cardiff Bay.

The regulations are a hoth potch. 5 star hotels? Do me a favour. what nonsense. This is a failing league in a minority sport that needs help not hindrance like this.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

According to Wales Online, only Ospreys would have been able to fulfil the stadium capacity requirement. So all three of the other regions were unable to bid. Two years ago, Ulster were unable to fulfil the same requirement and had to cede home advantage. Is this corruption? It appears to be equivalence.

According to the Ospreys the Pro12 regulations now state that the venue needs 2 FIVE STAR HOTELS nearby to accommodate the teams.

Therefore, none of the Welsh regions have the required facilities at their grounds to ever host the final.

Fantastic.

Are there two 5 star hotels in the region of Thommond Park ? I guess there would be in Dublin. If this is the case, and only Swansea have the right stadium outside of Ireland and national stadiums are not deemed suitable, then that would seal it, every final in Ireland from now on. You could not even make it up could you.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

According to Wales Online, only Ospreys would have been able to fulfil the stadium capacity requirement. So all three of the other regions were unable to bid. Two years ago, Ulster were unable to fulfil the same requirement and had to cede home advantage. Is this corruption? It appears to be equivalence.

According to the Ospreys the Pro12 regulations now state that the venue needs 2 FIVE STAR HOTELS nearby to accommodate the teams.

Therefore, none of the Welsh regions have the required facilities at their grounds to ever host the final.

Fantastic.

Are there two 5 star hotels in the region of Thommond Park ? I guess there would be in Dublin. If this is the case, and only Swansea have the right stadium outside of Ireland and national stadiums are not deemed suitable, then that would seal it, every final in Ireland from now on. You could not even make it up could you.

No team would want to stay in Cardiff or Newport if the game is in Swansea. That more or less rules a bid out from the Liberty stadium. That means unless the WRU would make a bid (can they?) then the final will always be in Ireland or Edinburgh if they put a bid in for Murrayfield.

Disgusting excuse for a league.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
According to the Ospreys the Pro12 regulations now state that the venue needs 2 FIVE STAR HOTELS nearby to accommodate the teams.

Therefore, none of the Welsh regions have the required facilities at their grounds to ever host the final.

Fantastic.

When did this change?

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
According to the Ospreys the Pro12 regulations now state that the venue needs 2 FIVE STAR HOTELS nearby to accommodate the teams.

Therefore, none of the Welsh regions have the required facilities at their grounds to ever host the final.

Fantastic.

When did this change?

No idea. I've not seen it before.

Have you seen a list of the criteria before? For last year, say?

http://www.adaremanor.com/en/
http://www.dromoland.ie/
http://www.savoylimerick.com/


That's three...

Oh and the PotatoTurnip&BailingTwine Manor.......... for those who prefer Limerick and the Wessth to conform to rustic cliche.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

According to Wales Online, only Ospreys would have been able to fulfil the stadium capacity requirement. So all three of the other regions were unable to bid. Two years ago, Ulster were unable to fulfil the same requirement and had to cede home advantage. Is this corruption? It appears to be equivalence.

According to the Ospreys the Pro12 regulations now state that the venue needs 2 FIVE STAR HOTELS nearby to accommodate the teams.

Therefore, none of the Welsh regions have the required facilities at their grounds to ever host the final.

Fantastic.

Are there two 5 star hotels in the region of Thommond Park ? I guess there would be in Dublin. If this is the case, and only Swansea have the right stadium outside of Ireland and national stadiums are not deemed suitable, then that would seal it, every final in Ireland from now on. You could not even make it up could you.

No team would want to stay in Cardiff or Newport if the game is in Swansea. That more or less rules a bid out from the Liberty stadium. That means unless the WRU would make a bid (can they?) then the final will always be in Ireland or Edinburgh if they put a bid in for Murrayfield.

Disgusting excuse for a league.

Careful there Chunky or you will run out of superlatives for stuff like murder and child molesting.

I am not in favour of a B&I league, but one of the high points would be watching chunks and his little mates squirming when they get even worse treatment from their new PRL overlords.

It just seems that no matter what their Celtic pals do to help them out they think they are being victimised.

Try hard to make yourself the victim in every situation and guess what happens?

That's right. Your wish normally comes true.

Don Alfonso wrote:Have you seen a list of the criteria before? For last year, say?

I've Only had the 18,000 capacity regulation brought to my attention, and no reports have ever divulged the hotel facilities.

Has Limerick got many 5 star hotels?

Not so Jenifer. The English love the Millennium...as we'll be reminded about in a week or two when the BEEB kicks in with their 'Best Rugby Stadium in the World' show.

If Chunky and his Regions went AWOL on the Pro12 and joined the English/Welsh League thing............. the Millennium might even get the final every year!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

I am not in favour of a B&I league, but one of the high points would be watching chunks and his little mates squirming when they get even worse treatment from their new PRL overlords.

Hasn't happenned yet. Willing to give anything a shot other than this god awful competition.

Except that if the Regions broke up the Pro12 they might find our big white @rses in the way when it came to the B&I Cup, and that the Nigels wanted us in there because it got them more dosh. 3 of the Regions end up in the 2nd division.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Except that if the Regions broke up the Pro12 they might find our big white @rses in the way when it came to the B&I Cup, and that the Nigels wanted us in there because it got them more dosh. 3 of the Regions end up in the 2nd division.

Fine by me

Chunky Norwich wrote:That means unless the WRU would make a bid (can they?) then the final will always be in Ireland or Edinburgh if they put a bid in for Murrayfield.

Cardiff or Edinburgh cannot have it as the national stadiums do meet the criteria apparently, that's what some of the Irish posters on this thread have been saying, so nowhere in Wales Scotland or Italy meet these criteria's so the final will always be in Ireland.