Preparation Thread - England v Italy

[HammerofThunor]

First topic message reminder :

So the first game is done, time to move on. Anyone know which players are back from injury? Personally I'd rather they went to their club for recovery if they've been out for a while. What squad to pick for Italy? Keep the same one for consistency or 'experiment'?

Personally I want to keep the back line as stable as possible. Forwards, keep the backrow the same, keep the locks. Maybe change things up in the front row.

[lostinwales]

Italy have a nasty habit of dragging teams down to their level. If we find space we will score, but they can be very frustrating opponents.

[Poorfour]

The conundrum for England now is how to include someone like Danny Care. If Care is to be a key part of our squad, when does he get tested again? Does he have to show good club form first, or does he get a chance in the Six Nations, at the expense of Wigglesworth, just to see whether he can put in a performance on a par with last year?

Lancaster has known Care since he was a teenager and I think he knows how to handle him. I also think he has the luxury of having several scrum halves fit and in some sort of form, and is beginning to move towards a bit of a horses for courses model. I suspect he may think in terms of pairings rather than individuals - Care & Farrell went very well in the last 6N with Care being the primary creator, but Youngs & Ford are going well at the moment, with Ford being the creator. If Cipriani is on the bench, I bet he won't want to have Care there at the same time - it could be sublime, or it could be a recipe for disaster.

Form and fitness permitting, Care will be in the RWC 30-man squad, and my guess is that he will be alongside Farrell and Myler. If one of them benches, so will he, if one of them starts, so will he.

[beshocked]

May IMO was the worst English back yet again. Crabbing along with ball in hand and was pretty instrumental in England being 10-0 down early on - as he gave away the early penalty and failed to stop the Welsh try.

Only person I would change is May for either Nowell or Ashton.

Comparing May to Ashton is hugely unfair on Ashton - Ashton's try scoring has been far superior. He would love playing Italy.


Nathan I agree that Hartley's throwing could have been better.

Londontiger Mako always make a lot of tackles. It's a hugely underrated part of his game.


My thoughts on the game - best back was Watson - not just his try, he was very lively,

best forward - Haskell - put his missed tackle on Faletau behind him and continued to be industrous throughout the match.

Ford - did not deserve man of the match but recovered well and had a good game overall after a pretty sloppy start. Far too many charge down kicks for comfort though.

Would keep everything the same bar taking off May - putting in either Nowell or Ashton.

[TJ]

I don't think England should change much if anything. What they really need now is a period of stability. Maybe some fringe players on the bench

[Cowshot]

It's difficult to see Italy beating us this year, given the way we played in the Wales game. They do know how to make life difficult though and if our pack isn't up to scratch we could have an unpleasant afternoon. Sometimes it's hard to avoid a subconscious relaxing when facing a perceived weaker team...all this is well known by coaches and no doubt Lancaster is working on it.

Saw Haskell in some article saying that the pressure for places is so intense that no-one can afford to relax: everyone has to perform in every game, Italy no exception (words to that effect). There are ways in which this 6Ns is ALL about the World Cup! Given that is the case I'm inclining more towards the 50 point hammering than the stuttering win we so often have against them.

Oh, and no changes to the starting line up please. Lots of substitutions around 50/60 mins if all is going well.

[dummy_half]

Minimal changes for this coming match - as others have said, if Lawes was fit then up to the bench for one of Croft or Easter, otherwise maybe Parling or Kitchener. For the Italy game, I'd probably keep Croft on the bench as his open field ability against a tiring Italian defence might be more useful than Easter's power in close, but that's a 'horses for courses' selection.

Might be tempted to bring Care back to the bench for similar reasons - Wigglesworth is a good all-rounder, but is more the sort of SH you want to close out a tight game, not one to stretch an opposition and exploit space late on.

[Jimpy]

May IMO was the worst English back yet again. Crabbing along with ball in hand and was pretty instrumental in England being 10-0 down early on - as he gave away the early penalty and failed to stop the Welsh try.

Only person I would change is May for either Nowell or Ashton.

Comparing May to Ashton is hugely unfair on Ashton - Ashton's try scoring has been far superior. He would love playing Italy.


Nathan I agree that Hartley's throwing could have been better.

Londontiger Mako always make a lot of tackles. It's a hugely underrated part of his game.


My thoughts on the game - best back was Watson - not just his try, he was very lively,

best forward - Haskell - put his missed tackle on Faletau behind him and continued to be industrous throughout the match.

Ford - did not deserve man of the match but recovered well and had a good game overall after a pretty sloppy start. Far too many charge down kicks for comfort though.

Would keep everything the same bar taking off May - putting in either Nowell or Ashton.

Largely agree, although Ashton is out of the frame - he isn't even in the squad. May's tendancy to run infield is annoying - when he runs directly at opposition defences, he's hard to stop - just ask the AB. Nowell likes to run straight, but he's hardly prolific. His stock has risen at Chiefs - but I can't believe you of all people would be recommending his selection. May does my head in though.

Haskell was immense in the loose and in my opinion, should have had MOM. Ford's selection for MOM was a bit baffling TBH.

[Cowshot]

Might be tempted to bring Care back to the bench for similar reasons - Wigglesworth is a good all-rounder, but is more the sort of SH you want to close out a tight game, not one to stretch an opposition and exploit space late on.

Joe Simpson has also been very good the times I've seen him this season. I'd be happy to see him on the bench. Gosh we have strength in depth these days!

[beshocked]

cowshot it's generally hard to see Italy beating England any time - they haven't done it so far!

I expect Italy will be destroyed by England, Ireland were quite poor against Italy but they still ran out comfortable winners - Ireland looked so comfortable even though they will be frustated that they could only score vs 14 and 13 men for their two tries.

The only crumb of comfort for Italy is that England are such heavy favourites that Italy have nothing to lose. Complacency is a big danger in this match. England need to forget the Wales game, that's done, focus on Italy wholeheartedly.

[damage_13]

36 was amazing ....without the ball.

It was like Mad Dog Moody had come out of retirement.

It would've been good if May had come inside a bit more often looking for the ball. Him and Hask screwed up for Wale's try that should've been disallowed (hands in Scrum).

Hoping Cips can come on v Italy, with this attacking back line I am hoping we can wear italy down and clinically take them apart

[beshocked]

Jimpy Nowell is a better player this season. I am not against changing my views on players if they improve or prove me wrong.

Ashton might not be in the squad but I would still want him starting.

A year on things change. Look at the emergence of Bath to real title contenders.

Last season Farrell was the number one 10 and deservedly so - an injury ravaged season and a much improved Ford has seen Ford take the 10 shirt and make it his own.

Joseph is the in form 13 and deserves his start.

Watson is playing well and has earnt his spot.

Care was one of the best backs last 6 nations but with him in erratic form this season, B.Youngs has deservedly supplanted him.

Haskell has improved as a player, in good form and deservedly wears the 6 shirt etc.

[No 7&1/2]

Remember to put the boot into Kruis for a while beshocked as he knocked on for the scrum which led to the try.

[Cowshot]

cowshot it's generally hard to see Italy beating England any time - they haven't done it so far!

I expect Italy will be destroyed by England, Ireland were quite poor against Italy but they still ran out comfortable winners - Ireland looked so comfortable even though they will be frustated that they could only score vs 14 and 13 men for their two tries.

The only crumb of comfort for Italy is that England are such heavy favourites that Italy have nothing to lose. Complacency is a big danger in this match.  England need to forget the Wales game, that's done, focus on Italy wholeheartedly.

We've had a few squeaky bum games against Italy iirc and were particularly lucky once a couple of years ago I think. They are good at making other sides play badly. Agree that complacency is an issue, it always is in this sort of situation, but I think the intense competition for places I mentioned above will take care of that. I think perhaps I'm more concerned players will try to shine individually more than they would against eg Ireland, to the detriment of the team performance.

[beshocked]

no 7 & 1/2

did you watch the game? Kruis did knock on yes but England smashed Wales at the next scrum (Kruis being part of the engine room)- Wales were fortunate that the ball fell to Faletau in a favourable position.

Faletau then fended off Haskell, drew off May which allowed Webb to saunter over for a soft score.

Kruis did make an error there (which I feel was less important than Haskells or May's) but had a good game after that, May in comparison was poor throughout, Haskell also had a very good game.

[quinsforever]

he's winding you up. kruis error = nowell error missing the catch and knocking on vs france last year...

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I don't think that May can be blamed for either the initial penalty or the try.

The penalty was the first of the game, no one knew Garces was going to blow up if you lingered for a second or so, or that he would give no one any time to lay the ball back once tackled. From what I saw it would have been very difficult to get out of the way with impeding the Welsh 9.

For the try, May had to step in, Haskell had missed the tackle other wise it was a straight run in for TF. If he has stayed out he would have been castigated as well. No win situation, at least he forced the pass, which may have gone to ground.

Agree Watson was Englands best back. As I mentioned on another thread, he has such fast feet, haven't seen the like since Jason Robinson or maybe Ickle Shane. Plus to that is, that he has size as well.

With regard to crabbing, I got the impressionhe did that only when he came into the line and went looking for support. On his wing I thought he was fairly direct.

[HammerofThunor]

Ford was there for TF. He and Haskell put him down. May didn't actually do anything in terms of tackling, just dithered out of position. I expect it was because he didn't think Ford would be able to make the tackle...but he did. This is one of those things that requires experience as a team. Learning to trust the inside man to make the tackle...or not. I don't hold it against May too much.

As for the first penalty...was that the one where the Welsh ball carrier rolled over May after the tackle? If so, there is no way I'd blame May for that. Poopie happens.

[beshocked]

well-past it never like to blame anyone do you?



May still gave away 3 points whether you feel May is unlucky or not.

May should have trusted Ford to make the tackle on Faletau which Ford did (his improvement in defence has really impressed me). May moved out of position which allowed Webb to score.

I just thought May was largely ineffectual - certainly compared to the rest of the backs.

If this was another certain winger he would have been hung drawn and quartered for those errors....

I guess England need to decide what to do next with May - stick with him, try Nowell or Ashton, Wade or someone else.

I didn't see the AI games so didn't see May's supposedly world class form and finish vs NZ.... Was he really that good? I've only seen his pretty poor 6 nations form.

Different rules for different players I guess - player X scores a try vs NZ, he's world class, player Y scores a try vs NZ in two separate games - no one cares....

[No 7&1/2]

no 7 & 1/2

did you watch the game? Kruis did knock on yes but England smashed Wales at the next scrum (Kruis being part of the engine room)- Wales were fortunate that the ball fell to Faletau in a favourable position.

Faletau then fended off Haskell, drew off May which allowed Webb to saunter over for a soft score.

Kruis did make an error there (which I feel was less important than Haskells or May's) but had a good game after that, May in comparison was poor throughout, Haskell also had a very good game.

I'd completely agree just thought for balance you'd like to point it out. it was after all his mistake which gave Wales extremely good field position.

[beshocked]

I'll have to watch that bit again but surely it wasn't Kruis who allowed Wales to get that close to England's try line. Yes he knocked on but who got him in that situation in the first place?

Oh and one important factor - England won the game.

[No 7&1/2]

Just going by what you've said about Nowell against France.

[bluestonevedder]

I understand the criticism of May, but I think it's largely unjust. 

He didn't touch the ball a lot. I remember him having 2 inside runs where he hit the ball hard at pace and made some reasonable ground. I don't remember his 'crabbing' to be honest, but I could be wrong. 

Webb's try aside, I thought May actually had a very decent game considering how little ball he had to play with. The kick chase from both Watson and May was outstanding, and they shackled Cuthbert and North all day. May worked tirelessly at the breakdown (yes, he conceded a penalty early on), and was always busy. What more can you ask of a player that doesn't get the ball?

In my eyes, May is still a starting winger. 

His try against New Zealand has proven to be a double-edged sword. Now people expect him to be doing that every game which is totally unrealistic.

[gregortree]

well-past it never like to blame anyone do you?



May still gave away 3 points whether you feel May is unlucky or not.

May should have trusted Ford to make the tackle on Faletau which Ford did (his improvement in defence has really impressed me). May moved out of position which allowed Webb to score.

I just thought May was largely ineffectual - certainly compared to the rest of the backs.

If this was another certain winger he would have been hung drawn and quartered for those errors....

I guess England need to decide what to do next with May - stick with him, try Nowell or Ashton, Wade or someone else.

I didn't see the AI games so didn't see May's supposedly world class form and finish vs NZ.... Was he really that good? I've only seen his pretty poor 6 nations form.

Different rules for different players I guess - player X scores a try vs NZ, he's world class, player Y scores a try vs NZ in two separate games - no one cares....

Well here you go, catch up and enjoy it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM6i8oKdBhI

[beshocked]

I still believe Nowell should have not started vs France. His inexperience in my opinion was costly.

England lost to France - the GS and 6 nations title too.

Nowell's mistakes were part of that. Not the only reason England lost but he played his part.

If England had won I would have not being mentioning it. If Nowell was not involved in the first two French tries being scored I would have not mentioned it either.

[No 7&1/2]

Cool beans beshocked. Just thought it was fair to point out.

[lostinwales]

Nowell did good things in that match vs France also, including a very high number of decent tackles for a winger. We do tend to focus on individual errors too much while ignoring the good stuff sometimes, like Wales blaming a foggy headed North for Joseph's try. The fact is in some situations if the attacking team is patient (or lucky) enough the error will happen.

As for May. He seldom (if ever) got the ball anywhere in space. What he did do was hit the line hard and make a few yards where last year he might have spent too much time running across the pitch. That does happen for wingers. His try vs NZ was a thing of wonder. It was one moment and one try, but there are very few players around who could have managed it. If you want to see 'deceptive speed' then that is it. (They thought he was only running 'very fast', then he hit top gear.)

What helped Watson to look good (aside from his well taken try) was being in the right place to catch some kicks, and the way he took the ball spun out and made a few yards every time was very encouraging.

[Geordie]

Well how do you gain experience?

I agree with Eddie, May was out of position for the try but in general after that was fine. Not electric, but he didn't really get a host of opportunities.

Him and Watson are worth persevering with though I suspect Watson will move to FB sooner rather than later.

[bluestonevedder]

Well how do you gain experience?

I agree with Eddie, May was out of position for the try but in general after that was fine. Not electric, but he didn't really get a host of opportunities.

Him and Watson are worth persevering with though I suspect Watson will move to FB sooner rather than later.

[Mad for Chelsea]

yeah May messed up for the try, but you see that quite often, the guy not trusting his team-mate to make the tackle, so steps in, and loses his own man (it happens to an extent on Joseph's try where someone tries to step in and help North, but probably ends up hindering him more than anything). After that he did fine, not electric, but didn't do anything wrong. Someone highlighted how well our wingers chased (and claimed) high kicks all day, which made our kicking game so much more effective than in the autumn, and May definitely played his part in that.

Overall, I think if Parling's fit he should replace Easter on the bench, but that's about it. 12T's cameo was good enough to keep his spot ahead of Eastmond or Barritt. I know people aren't that keen on Wigglesworth, but I thought he did well on Friday: his kicking was fine, and he kept the tempo fairly sharp. While Care may offer a bit more as the game breaks up vs Italy, I think it sends the wrong message if you drop someone after they've played well.

We shouldn't have too many problems beating Italy, and beating them handsomely TBH. For all that Ireland didn't look that impressive they won by 23 points, away, and Italy apart from the odd bright moment in the first half never looked like accomplishing much. Their kicking game isn't good enough to play in the right areas of the pitch (it's noticeable that the one stat where all winning teams were ahead on last week was territory - 63% for Ireland and I think 56% for England and France). England just need to not panic, keep their heads and take their opportunities, no reason they shouldn't score plenty...

[Geordie]

Its also funny listening to people wanting May dropped due to defensive positioning...then saying Wade should start....

Have people seen his defensive positioning??

[mystiroakey]

Its also funny listening to people wanting May dropped due to defensive positioning...then saying Wade should start....

Have people seen his defensive positioning??

Isnt it even worse when they say Ashton should start due to Mays defensive frailties??

Its a case of picking out some flaws. I like crabman, we should stick with the lad

[lostinwales]

Its also funny listening to people wanting May dropped due to defensive positioning...then saying Wade should start....

Have people seen his defensive positioning??

Isnt it even worse when they say Ashton should start due to Mays defensive frailties??

Its a case of picking out some flaws. I like crabman, we should stick with the lad

Yes. Out of Wade, Ashton and May its pretty obvious who is the best defender.

[Geordie]

They are all talented, Im a fan of Ashton in the right tactics, Wade is a corker and im a big fan of what May has to offer. I like Nowell as well

We cant keep chopping and changing players because they made one error in a game. You learn by those errors...May seems an intelligent lad.

Watson will surely move to FB post WC...he looks made for that position...which means May at 11 and Nowell or Wade for the other.

May and Watson looked very good in the AI's and on Friday. Keep them learning and gaining experience.
Hopefully against Italy May will get a few gaps and show that he can run straight and take chances...

[beshocked]

lostinwales not getting the ball as a winger? Hasn't stopped criticism of certain wingers has it?


Geordiefalcon t's also funny listening to people wanting May to continue to start based on one try vs NZ.....

bluestonevedder I guess the problem is that May always look ineffectual in the 6 nations compared to his fellow backs, whilst they seem to fill their boots he just stands on the sidelines.

[Geordie]

Beshocked

My views are absolutely not based on 1 try v NZ.

How does May look ineffectual compared to his fellow backs?

He chases kicks, he tackles very well (we all know the Faletau try situation and Haskell was equally at fault. )...

[beshocked]

Geordiefalcon he looks ineffectual because other players have shone brightly in comparison.

Care,Burrell,Farrell and Brown all vastly superior to May in last year's 6 nations. Creating and scoring more tries.

Just in the 1st game of this 6 nations the likes of Watson,Joseph and Ford have shone much brighter.



What has he actually done of note?

Arguably the worst back in last year's 6 nations. Didn't create any tries did he?

Got turned over and gave away too many penalties IMO. Failed to score any try - certainly should have bagged one vs Ireland.

Failed to do anything of note in attack against Wales, that's without mentioning the 10 points ......

I would be geniunely interested to see May's tackle stats.

What you're saying is that May might score against the weakest side in the competition at home... I would hope so too.......

I feel the hype surrounding May is based on 1 try.

[BamBam]

Moved on to May from Nowell as the player who should be replaced by Ashton I see.

[mystiroakey]

"I feel the hype surrounding May is based on 1 try."


No its based on the fact he is a super hero- Crabman.

The saviour of English rugby..

But anyway on a serious note. I didn't watch much of the game on Friday, and i couldn't stay awake on a rewatch- But I do remember positive things about him from the AI's.. When he gtes going he is like a train. Plus he isnt mr fancy pants - he does cover his area and seems to have good hands..

But the biggest plus is I trust SL- i trust what he sees, and from the little i saw of him on Friday he didn't stand out badly enough to be dropped.

[No 7&1/2]

There's not been much hype surrounding him though has there? For the left wing spot it's either him, Yarde or at a stretch Strettle. He's shown glimpses of what he has. He's improved his crabbing and is backing himself much more against defences. Mistake for the try but anyone can get pinned after a tackle as the opposition side are trying to milk a pen half the time. He came looking inside a few times on Saturday, chased well. What are we expecting of him?

[EnglishReign]

I thought May did pretty well after the early infringements... tackled well, was good under the high ball, showed good hands on a couple of occasions and made metres when running from deep. All positive stuff, didn't see him run sideways or cut inside once! No idea why you'd stick Nowell in there based on that.

[beshocked]

Bambam if I thought May was playing well I would say so. When I have seen him play I have not been impressed by May (admittedly I didn't see the AIs but I get the impression from posters on here that May was world class in those matches, my loss I guess ).

If Nowell gets in the left wing spot instead of May I wouldn't be upset.

no 7 &1/2 expecting him to actually do something of note - if the likes of Joseph,Burrell,Watson,Brown etc can then why not May?

Yet again I thought he was the worst English back.

[lostinwales]

But we are back to blaming May for not getting passes. Yes the same thing happens with other wingers and I wish it wasnt held against them either.

I don't think Watson got many passes.

May's tackle stats are usually good. I'd say Nowell is the best defensively out of the current bunch but May is probably next.

[BamBam]

Watson stood out more because he fielded quite a few kicks uncontested and was able to run them back, whereas May went up for the high ball slightly more often I think, and was either immediately tackled or wasn't able to win the high ball

[EnglishReign]

Geordiefalcon he looks ineffectual because other players have shone brightly in comparison.

Care,Burrell,Farrell and Brown all vastly superior to May in last year's 6 nations. Creating and scoring more tries.

Just in the 1st game of this 6 nations the likes of Watson,Joseph and Ford have shone much brighter.



What has he actually done of note?

Arguably the worst back in last year's 6 nations. Didn't create any tries did he?

Got turned over and gave away too many penalties IMO. Failed to score any try - certainly should have bagged one vs Ireland.

Failed to do anything of note in attack against Wales, that's without mentioning the 10 points ......

I would be geniunely interested to see May's tackle stats.

What you're saying is that May might score against the weakest side in the competition at home... I would hope so too.......

I feel the hype surrounding May is based on 1 try.

You say that but he made the most metres of any English back in every game. It was his first 6N and he didn't score a try, although he might've if not grabbed around the head against Ireland. As for creating tries, I can't remember a direct assist but he made several breaks which led to tries, such as the one against Wales where Burrell scored in the corner.

I don't see that he did much less than the other backs on Friday, to be honest. Ford had a good game generally, but still missed a couple of kicks and some of his kicking out of hand was absolutely criminal and should've been punished, yet we sit here praising him like he's the next Wilko. All players make mistakes from time to time, I didn't see enough from any of our backs to suggest they should be dropped.

[Geordie]

No Beshocked...May wasn't world class in those AI's...but he worked very hard.

He chases kicks, he tackles, he took high balls, and when he got the chance and a gap he pinned his ears back and went.

Noones building him up as the best thing since sliced bread, we're saying he's done well...and not done anything to warrant dropping.

You say he only scores again the weakest sides...? He's scored a couple in the AI's...so that theory is incorrect.

[Geordie]

Geordiefalcon he looks ineffectual because other players have shone brightly in comparison.

Care,Burrell,Farrell and Brown all vastly superior to May in last year's 6 nations. Creating and scoring more tries.

Just in the 1st game of this 6 nations the likes of Watson,Joseph and Ford have shone much brighter.



What has he actually done of note?

Arguably the worst back in last year's 6 nations. Didn't create any tries did he?

Got turned over and gave away too many penalties IMO. Failed to score any try - certainly should have bagged one vs Ireland.

Failed to do anything of note in attack against Wales, that's without mentioning the 10 points ......

I would be geniunely interested to see May's tackle stats.

What you're saying is that May might score against the weakest side in the competition at home... I would hope so too.......

I feel the hype surrounding May is based on 1 try.

Don't understand your logic.

You berated Nowell for lack of experience and making 1 error. Wanted him dropped etc...yet now you want May dropped for Nowell on what evidence. What has Nowell done to get back in favour...and he has less experience than May.

[No 7&1/2]

Bambam if I thought May was playing well I would say so. When I have seen him play I have not been impressed by May (admittedly I didn't see the AIs but I get the impression from posters on here that May was world class in those matches, my loss I guess ).

If Nowell gets in the left wing spot instead of May I wouldn't be upset.

no 7 &1/2 expecting him to actually do something of note - if the likes of Joseph,Burrell,Watson,Brown etc can then why not May?

Yet again I thought he was the worst English back.

What do you mean by something of note?

[Jimpy]

Bambam if I thought May was playing well I would say so. When I have seen him play I have not been impressed by May (admittedly I didn't see the AIs but I get the impression from posters on here that May was world class in those matches, my loss I guess ).

If Nowell gets in the left wing spot instead of May I wouldn't be upset.

no 7 &1/2 expecting him to actually do something of note - if the likes of Joseph,Burrell,Watson,Brown etc can then why not May?

Yet again I thought he was the worst English back.

What do you mean by something of note?

By morphing into Ashton?

[Geordie]

Anyway moving away from that one...

Do you think Lancaster will have seen the benefit of having a more dynamic 6 over the likes of Wood?

Haskell did everything Wood can...the unseen stuff but also offered a far more explosive carrying game that Wood just cant offer. And it takes some of the carrying workload off Billy V.

[BamBam]

I hope so GF. This is the second time I've seen Robshaw and Haskell play together when both are in form, and they've looked an excellent pairing. I'm a big fan of Wood, but Haskell has got to be the starter for Italy and beyond, and lets see how the pack does when Lawes is back in and we have a couple of really thumping hitters, and Lawes being in with Hartley normally means the lineout goes well too, thus slightly negating the need for Wood.

Really noticed Haskell making a few choke tackles, helping keep the ball carrier up and winning turnovers, I don't think Wood has the brute strength to do that kind of thing, regardless of his other qualities

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