Preparation Thread - England v Italy

by HammerofThunor Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

So the first game is done, time to move on. Anyone know which players are back from injury? Personally I'd rather they went to their club for recovery if they've been out for a while. What squad to pick for Italy? Keep the same one for consistency or 'experiment'?

Personally I want to keep the back line as stable as possible. Forwards, keep the backrow the same, keep the locks. Maybe change things up in the front row.

by beshocked Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:37 pm

Englishreign most metres but not much to show for it.....

May didn't really contribute to the try, that was Twelvetree's 1 assist.

Crabbing across the pitch doesn't really count...

Geordiefalcon don't understand my logic? Okay I will explain it - players can improve or get worse.

Actually with Nowell I said he shouldn't have started against France (still stand by that), playing him against a weak side like Scotland made sense seeing is that Lancaster had already decided to pin his hopes on him.

Nowell is an improved player this season and he's actually shown he can score tries (something I have criticised him of being unable to do).

May had a poor 6 nations last year and played poorly vs Wales.

When did I say he only scores against the weakest sides?

I am saying that the May fan club will say he's world class if he fills his boots vs Italy. He failed to score vs Italy last time round surely he will now.......

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:45 pm

I must admit, I'm not a big May fan. He always seems to be an error waiting to happen, usually costing us points.

His one up defence is ok but he seems to go to sleep a fair bit and makes very odd decisions (poor kicks, crabs across the pitch getting turned over). Yes he did score a lovely try against New Zealand but he's done little else.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:45 pm

So is something of note scoring a try or creating a try nothing else?

To be picky Twelvetrees had 2 assists.

by lostinwales Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:46 pm

BamBam wrote:I hope so GF. This is the second time I've seen Robshaw and Haskell play together when both are in form, and they've looked an excellent pairing. I'm a big fan of Wood, but Haskell has got to be the starter for Italy and beyond, and lets see how the pack does when Lawes is back in and we have a couple of really thumping hitters, and Lawes being in with Hartley normally means the lineout goes well too, thus slightly negating the need for Wood.

Really noticed Haskell making a few choke tackles, helping keep the ball carrier up and winning turnovers, I don't think Wood has the brute strength to do that kind of thing, regardless of his other qualities

Saw BV do the same, but generally nobody else was helping. That is something that could be improved.

Wood is good Haskell on Friday's evidence is better

by beshocked Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:54 pm

no 7 & 1/2 for a winger they are more important than say a prop or lock.

I guess it is though it could also be turnovers, numerous tackles, winning scrum penalties,winning lineout etc - I don't expect May will rank highly there.

Also I didn't think May was particularly good under the high ball like Brown or Watson. Perhaps it doesn't help that May's two team mates seemed to play much better.

When was Twelvetrees 2nd assist? I only remember the grubber.

Thank you sgt pooly. Nice to see that there is someone else who sees the flaws in May that I see.

Perhaps if I saw the AIs I would have more patience - just from what I have seen - 6 games in the 6 nations - no tries, no assists. I don't even think he punches numerous holes in the defence either.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:58 pm

I think he improved in the AIs, bar the missed tackle I thought he did ok against Wales with what he was given. I think his overall game is better than Yardes who has a better strike rate. Twelvetrees had 1 against Italy, pretty simple pass to Brown I think, though my memory is fading.

You happy with Watson now?

by Geordie Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:04 pm

Well May wasn't great in the last 6n...but this season for club he has been excellent and for country he was very good in the AI's and scored three tries 2 v Samoa and 1 v NZ.
His all round games during the AI's were very good.

Noone is saying he is "World Class"

Likewise May got a lot of the plaudits in the AI's but I thought Watson was excellent then doing the solid all round stuff that May did on Friday. We have two good wingers.

Nowell and Wade and Ashton and Yarde can fight for the spots.

by beshocked Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:10 pm

no 7 & 1/2 when did I say I wasn't happy with Watson?

Geordiefalcon May wasn't solid though was he? You don't ship 10 points and say you were solid...

We are not going to agree - let's leave it at that. We'll see how he does vs Italy.

by Geordie Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:11 pm

lostinwales wrote:
BamBam wrote:I hope so GF. This is the second time I've seen Robshaw and Haskell play together when both are in form, and they've looked an excellent pairing. I'm a big fan of Wood, but Haskell has got to be the starter for Italy and beyond, and lets see how the pack does when Lawes is back in and we have a couple of really thumping hitters, and Lawes being in with Hartley normally means the lineout goes well too, thus slightly negating the need for Wood.

Really noticed Haskell making a few choke tackles, helping keep the ball carrier up and winning turnovers, I don't think Wood has the brute strength to do that kind of thing, regardless of his other qualities

Saw BV do the same, but generally nobody else was helping. That is something that could be improved.

Wood is good Haskell on Friday's evidence is better

I thought Billy did a load of work as well. I remember Burger said that Billy had a crazily high work rate...and he showed it on Friday.
He works in the tight areas...i'd love to see what he can do with a bit of space. Maybe we'll see that v Italy.

We're fortunate we have different types of players for different opponents.

Against Italy id be tempted to have Ewers on the bench to have a look at him. Covers 6/8 which means you can bring a Kitchener in to replace Easter.

by sirtidychris Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:12 pm

May did fine given the amount of space on the left wing, and he made some pundits team of the week, certainly didn't do badly enough to be dropped, especially given his efforts during the AI's. TBH Ashton should never be near the team again, i watched the saxons and for every decent tracking line and break he missed a tackle, he simply cant tackle which is bizarre for an ex league lad. Wade is a another lad that during his debut missed countless tackles and is an injury waiting to happen and Yarde hasn't shown any decent form in months. Nowell should be next in line i suppose but lets see what May can do with Space against Italy.

by Geordie Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:14 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 when did I say I wasn't happy with Watson?

Geordiefalcon May wasn't solid though was he? You don't ship 10 points and say you were solid...

We are not going to agree - let's leave it at that. We'll see how he does vs Italy.

Yes we will agree to disagree...however to be clear...Haskell was also at fault for that try but you omit that point and focus soley on May like you did v France last year forgetting Goodes part in the errors.

by EnglishReign Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:14 pm

I'm watching the game again as I haven't seen it since the haziness of the pub - May hasn't lost a single high ball contest and it's 60 mins gone. But like you say, let's see against Italy.

Edit - he lost out on one to Halfpenny on the 70 min mark. Some good supporting runs though, one of which led to a pen. Easy to forget these I guess.

As for the others, wouldn't change a thing for the starting XV.

by BamBam Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 when did I say I wasn't happy with Watson?

Geordiefalcon May wasn't solid though was he? You don't ship 10 points and say you were solid...

We are not going to agree - let's leave it at that. We'll see how he does vs Italy.

Yes we will agree to disagree...however to be clear...Haskell was also at fault for that try but you omit that point and focus soley on May like you did v France last year forgetting Goodes part in the errors.

If anything, Haskell is most at fault. No blindside should be getting beaten that easily by the 8 off the back of the scrum, even if it was a mess of a scrum. If Haskell hadn't left Ford 1 on 1 with Faletau for a split second, May wouldn't have needed to come in off his wing to think about helping

by beshocked Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:20 pm

sirtidychris you're really going to base your opinions of those of some poor pundits?

Ford was bizarrely made man of the match, laughable.

if you referring to Guscott's team of the week you'll need to take it with a firm pinch of salt - he put in Samson Lee in there who got absolutely stuffed by the English frontrow. Oh and of course he put May in there....

And yet Ashton has a strike rate close to 50%, May's is 25%.....

May's try record in Europe is what exactly? Ashton's try scoring record in Europe is very good indeed.

As for May being able to tackle... perhaps next time he can tackle Webb?

Worst English back vs Wales.

geordiefalcon I don't ignore Haskell but other than that notable missed tackle he was very good.

bambam May should have trusted Ford to get his man which he did.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:40 pm

Haskell is indeed most at fault. He had the chance to make the tackle and blew it. May should not have come inside - but if he did not Faletau would be concentrating on powering through ford rather than opening himself up, making the tackle much easier so he could offload.

This time last year Beshocked was blaming specific individuals - including May because he broke his nose - rather than the team for a defeat against France. He likes playing the blame game, he likes using aggressive language with any who disagree and seems to believe in a blame culture. Not a healthy thing for a team though as people become more conservative as afraid to make mistakes. Any way lasy year the blame game went on for the entire 6Ns, this year I will decide to be in a position not to see it.

Not one player was faultless on Friday (actually 36 may have committed no errors - but only 6 minutes)

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:52 pm

beshocked wrote:sirtidychris you're really going to base your opinions of those of some poor pundits?

Ford was bizarrely made man of the match, laughable.

if you referring to Guscott's team of the week you'll need to take it with a firm pinch of salt - he put in Samson Lee in there who got absolutely stuffed by the English frontrow. Oh and of course he put May in there....

And yet Ashton has a strike rate close to 50%, May's is 25%.....

May's try record in Europe is what exactly? Ashton's try scoring record in Europe is very good indeed.

As for May being able to tackle... perhaps next time he can tackle Webb?

Worst English back vs Wales.

geordiefalcon I don't ignore Haskell but other than that notable missed tackle he was very good.

bambam May should have trusted Ford to get his man which he did.

Ashton's international strike rate is inflated by a four-try game against Italy, a hatrick against Romania and a brace against Georgia. May isn't the try-scorer that Ashton is, but the figures alone distort the picture. At European level, certainly Ashton has a very good try scoring record. However, May's record across the Heineken and Amlin cups isn't too shabby either.

Criticism of May's tackling is silly. He's solid defensively. The tackle on Webb was an issue of judgement, arising from Haskell's miss on Faletau - that can be fixed easily. May certainly doesn't look like a defensive liability, which Ashton can be prone to.

May isn't the finished article, but he looks like he has more potential to be a more complete player than Ashton. He may have been the 'worst English back against Wales' (I'm not sure I'd agree with that), but that doesn't mean that he put in a poor performance. Given that he's just come off an impressive AIs, why criticise him for one quieter game?

by king_carlos Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:56 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:As for Watson...post WC do you think he will shift across to 15 and take Browns spot...he looks to be potentially the complete package...all the skills.

Could well be the plan GF.

Personally I'd love to see him and Nowell fighting for the 15 shirt. I worry that Nowell lacks the yard of pace needed to make him a really top class International wing, however he has a cracking skill set for a FB. He could also offer a similar replacement for Brown if needed given his strength in contact and defence.

Wings - May, Wade, Yarde, Rokoduguni

FB - Watson, Nowell

I wouldn't discard Brown the second the RWC is over by any means. However I'd be delighted if those guys, plus a few more youngsters to challenge, could develop into our back 3 options heading into 2019!

by Tiger/Chief Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:58 pm

Jack Nowell is never ever going to score that try against New Zealand (he just doesn't have the pace), however he is far more likely to barrel (he is incredibly tricky to tackle) his way to the line e.g Jospeh or Tuilagi, his reading of the game is also very good.

He's definitely improved his all-round game and his try scoring this season as well.

by fa0019 Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:04 pm

England need to smash them off the park.

Playing 2nd team players may seem sensible but I think not winning by 30 points + could cause more problems.

Get a large points diff in early and it reduces expectations. I always thought the reason England lost the 6N in 2013 was their Italy performance not the Wales one.

Why, they beat Italy by only 9 points at home. Well For starters, the winner of the 6N in any given year has never beaten Italy by less than 17 points that season.
It gave Wales a sniff... had they not known a 10 point victory over England would get them the 6N trophy too the incentive to win would have been far less.

You put 40 points on Italy and the points diff becomes difficult to claw back.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:45 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 when did I say I wasn't happy with Watson?

Geordiefalcon May wasn't solid though was he? You don't ship 10 points and say you were solid...

We are not going to agree - let's leave it at that. We'll see how he does vs Italy.

Just seem to remember you were nt very impressed with and he did nt figure that highly when you were considering wingers in ghe Autumn. Just wondered if you d have him as a starter on the right and another wing (Yarde?) on the left.

by hugehandoff Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:57 pm

i don't think it will ever happen, but I would love to see Wade have a start. Wade and Watson.

by englandglory4ever Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:40 pm

Why on earth would amyone change a winning side in a RWC year? Its nonsense. You lose all cohesion and motivation for dropped players. Keep the same side. Plain daft to do anything else.

by Guest Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:41 pm

I've heard Haskell is not playing - he's been signed up to star in the new SpecSavers advert.

by cb Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:01 pm

I thought May had a fairly good AI series but more importantly started to look more secure and confident as well as scoring some tries. On Friday he had a quiet game but I think the first Welsh try was more of a lapse by Haskell than the the fault of May.

As someone has already said I do not think you can drop a player for not getting much of the ball. At the moment there are quite a few possibilities at wing, I would love to see Wade get a chance somewhere/somehow, but I still would not drop May.

Aston was dropped because after a impressive start to international rugby he lost his mojo and just looked awful. He has recovered but is on par with a number of other good English wingers, but certainly not ahead

by Hood83 Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:14 pm

lostinwales wrote:
BamBam wrote:I hope so GF. This is the second time I've seen Robshaw and Haskell play together when both are in form, and they've looked an excellent pairing. I'm a big fan of Wood, but Haskell has got to be the starter for Italy and beyond, and lets see how the pack does when Lawes is back in and we have a couple of really thumping hitters, and Lawes being in with Hartley normally means the lineout goes well too, thus slightly negating the need for Wood.

Really noticed Haskell making a few choke tackles, helping keep the ball carrier up and winning turnovers, I don't think Wood has the brute strength to do that kind of thing, regardless of his other qualities

Saw BV do the same, but generally nobody else was helping. That is something that could be improved.

Wood is good Haskell on Friday's evidence is better

Haskell is significantly better than Wood. Haskell's dropping has been one of my pet peeves, particularly for Wood who is slower, carries less effectively, doesn't tackle as well, and I'd argue now is no more involved than Haskell is around the park. We lose in the lineout but gain everywhere else. I know he's portrayed as an airhead, and I know sometimes he carries too upright etc., but having a guy who is that powerful, especially defensively is extremely valuable. Sometimes having a bit of an athlete is no bad thing.

by quinsforever Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:20 pm

agree hood. haskell also adds a lot to the team off the field. he has played in france and australia, and is a really experienced rugby player in a very young team. he is leading wasps beautifully and obviously knows how to lead both by example and in the changing room. haskell and robshaw playing together would allow me to drop the steffon armitage thing.

happy days. bomber's bacon has been saved by injuries. because without them, burrell wouldnt have started at 12, joseph wouldnt have started at all, nor hask, watson would never have gotten game time ahead of wade and yarde.

by BamBam Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:26 pm

quinsforever wrote:agree hood. haskell also adds a lot to the team off the field. he has played in france and australia, and is a really experienced rugby player in a very young team. he is leading wasps beautifully and obviously knows how to lead both by example and in the changing room. haskell and robshaw playing together would allow me to drop the steffon armitage thing.

happy days. bomber's bacon has been saved by injuries. because without them, burrell wouldnt have started at 12, joseph wouldnt have started at all, nor hask, watson would never have gotten game time ahead of wade and yarde.

Might be worth it just for that Wink

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:38 pm

Haskell is more powerful than Wood, but not even close to being quicker. Haskell brings muscle (sometimes needed), Wood brings lineout skills and consistency.

One thing no one has brought up in the May debate, is that he tackled the receiver on every kick off that went down his wing. No one else in the side has the pace to get there that quick and stop the receiver before he can either pass or get moving forward and gain momentum. Essentially Wales were stopped dead at the point of contact, the follow up players securing the maul /ruck forcing Wales to kick from deep.

I think he lost on high ball to 1/2p on the attack all game, how many wingers can say that against one of the best defensive 15s in the world.

He did nothing flash but the try which most observers would blame Haskell for, was his only mistake, everything else was solid and professional; Cuthbert didn't get a look in against him.

by quinsforever Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:40 pm

BamBam wrote:
quinsforever wrote:agree hood. haskell also adds a lot to the team off the field. he has played in france and australia, and is a really experienced rugby player in a very young team. he is leading wasps beautifully and obviously knows how to lead both by example and in the changing room. haskell and robshaw playing together would allow me to drop the steffon armitage thing.

happy days. bomber's bacon has been saved by injuries. because without them, burrell wouldnt have started at 12, joseph wouldnt have started at all, nor hask, watson would never have gotten game time ahead of wade and yarde.

Might be worth it just for that

indeed. the whole point of any back row in my opinion is to outplay their opposite numbers. not individually but collectively. haskell's carrying is why wales got annihalated as opposed to having wood. and it allowed robshaw and billy v to share tackling duties, and billy v to be not our only back row heavy carrier. it was a 100% improvement on our previous range of options which were...carrier, silent workhorse, and big hearted tackler. if 8 and hask are serious carrying threats, it totally changes how opposition backrows have to organise themselves to counteract. neither warbs, lydiate or tips are big carriers, so inevitably their whole back row became defensive.

by quinsforever Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:43 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Haskell is more powerful than Wood, but not even close to being quicker. Haskell brings muscle (sometimes needed), Wood brings lineout skills and consistency.

One thing no one has brought up in the May debate, is that he tackled the receiver on every kick off that went down his wing. No one else in the side has the pace to get there that quick and stop the receiver before he can either pass or get moving forward and gain momentum. Essentially Wales were stopped dead at the point of contact, the follow up players securing the maul /ruck forcing Wales to kick from deep.

I think he lost on high ball to 1/2p on the attack all game, how many wingers can say that against one of the best defensive 15s in the world.

He did nothing flash but the try which most observers would blame Haskell for, was his only mistake, everything else was solid and professional; Cuthbert didn't get a look in against him.

haskell also had pretty good anticipation of what was going on around him and got himself the ball while running some lines that 12s and 13s would have been proud of (right up until he ran into thepost i know!). i'm sorry but the biggest defense for wood is all the unseen good work he does. haskell did a lot of very seen and very impressive work, and england did not suffer at all for the lack of wood's unseen work. no-brainer for me. haskell adds so much in terms of an extra carrier, and off the pitch in terms of leadership and experience, that we have just become a significantly better team if he starts with robshaw going forwards.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:58 pm

Quins, I was making a comparison, not knocking Haskell. I thought he had a very good game, needs his eyesight tested, but otherwise very good. Wood and Haskell offer different skills. Haskell is an "in your face" type and deserves another few games to cement his place and show he can be consistent. If he doesn't then Wood is there waiting.

I suspect that when Morgan is fit again, Wood will make a more balanced back row, but with Billy V there, Haskell is the better option as long as he is consistent.

Not sure how you can say with "we have just become a significantly better team if he starts with robshaw going forwards", after just one game. If he continues his form for the next 4 games, then we can judge.

by quinsforever Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:05 pm

all good well-past-it. you are right, morgan is a smarter carrier than billy v, and so wood complements him better. but haskell has been pretty good all season to be fair to him. bomber has resisted picking form players until injury forced his hand...joseph, burrell at 12, even ford, haskell, etc. bombers is loyal and want to give players time. admirable, but there comes a point where he cant ignore form.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:09 pm

Well unless he s injured he ll get the tournament to make his case. Looks to me as if Parling for Croft may be the only change at least for Italy.

by Geordie Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:52 pm

Well it's nice to have varying options for different opposition.

I would also say though I have bemoaned a lack of real physicality and the amount of carrying from the pack. Lawes and Launchbury aren't great in that area. Having two carriers in the back row means they can get on doing what they do best.

Let's judge on the rest of the tournament though....Haskell may be invisible next game...

Though I've been impressed with Attwood... And even Kruis went very well for a young lad.

Finally no mention again of Marler. That lad just quietly gets better and better.

by lostinwales Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:07 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Finally no mention again of Marler. That lad just quietly gets better and better.

Absolutely cracking player. Corbs will have to work very hard to get ahead of him

by hawalsh Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:34 am

It was great to see Haskell have such a great game with ball in hand, his best for country or club in that regard for some time, and it was pivotal for how the side impressed themselves on the game, he was getting knocked back in the first quarter when we went behind, but he kept at it and made ground after that, with England prospering accordingly. I'm curious as to if there'll be any change in how he manages the division of his duties against Italy though, the quality of his work in the tackle and at the breakdown against Wales was excellent, but he didn't get through as much of it as his backrow partners (just 9 tackles compared to Robshaw's 26 and even Billy's 14 for instance) and we were exposed far too many times by the lack of speed and numbers in support of our own men (either losing ball or having it significantly slowed), which seemed to be lack of pace from our pack or too many hanging back for the next phase (there won't be one if you don't effectively secure your ball). That may not be too bad a problem against a number of sides in the championship but if it continues will be manna for Ireland in Dublin with their SH like speed and precision over the tackled player. Players will have to get round the park even more in that game and instructions as to what they prioritise, workrate and then intended fresh legs from the bench will be critical.

by Exiledinborders Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:32 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well it's nice to have varying options for different opposition.

I would also say though I have bemoaned a lack of real physicality and the amount of carrying from the pack. Lawes and Launchbury aren't great in that area. Having two carriers in the back row means they can get on doing what they do next.

Let's judge on the rest of the tournament though....Haskell may be invisible next game...

Though I've been impressed with Attwood... And even Kruis went very well for a young lad.

Finally no mention again of Marler. That lad just quietly gets better and better.

I agree about Marler. Brookes also aquitted himself well. England are lucky in that they can put out three top class front rows.

My ideal second row is Attwood and Lawes. That combination gives optimum power and athleticism. It is great having Parling, Launchbury, Kruis and even Kitchener as backups.

As for the back row probably the ideal is Haskell 6, Morgan 8 and Robshaw 7. If Armitage ever comes and plays in England then I would try him at eight.

by Geordie Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:13 am

Ah im not interested in Armitage and certainly not at 8.

Ben Morgan is a class act and Billy is developing nicely as well and a slightly different style.

by englandglory4ever Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:49 am

One of the main reasons England looked good was because they kept their structures and stuck to the game plan. A lot of credit to the players of course but the coaches must also take a lot of credit too. I've seen one poster moan about how much Youngs kicked. It's because he played to the plan. Probably why Care got dropped because he didn't kick enough. The outcome of sticking to the plan was that Wales couldn't get out of their own half. If the players stick to the plan who knows what riches it will bring?

by beshocked Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:46 am

LondonTiger wrote:Haskell is indeed most at fault. He had the chance to make the tackle and blew it. May should not have come inside - but if he did not Faletau would be concentrating on powering through ford rather than opening himself up, making the tackle much easier so he could offload.

This time last year Beshocked was blaming specific individuals - including May because he broke his nose - rather than the team for a defeat against France. He likes playing the blame game, he likes using aggressive language with any who disagree and seems to believe in a blame culture. Not a healthy thing for a team though as people become more conservative as afraid to make mistakes. Any way lasy year the blame game went on for the entire 6Ns, this year I will decide to be in a position not to see it.

Not one player was faultless on Friday (actually 36 may have committed no errors - but only 6 minutes)

Londontiger surely by saying Haskell is most at fault you are putting the blame squarely on him? Something you supposedly disapprove of?

I blamed individual errors but in the end it was the coaches who had the final say, particularly Lancaster. Lancaster refused to accept he made some poor calls on the day. I feel that Lancaster should have held his hands up and said he got it wrong - not blame the ball or luck or some other rubbish. Should have accepted responsibility for the defeat but he didn't.

As for the Wales game - I thought Lancaster did well - he picked form players and reaped the benefits. Credit where's credit due. Well done Lancaster.

What player X and coach X should be doing is make sure these mistakes don't happen again. I focus on them so much because they can be important to a match.

I thought Halfpenny's simple miss was a big error too. When I look at games I look at the most important turning points or decisions which might decide a match.

I know I am not always right but at least I on occasion do acknowledge I am wrong. I don't agree with Lancaster sticking with May but I can understand why he will. I guess the argument is - he had a good AIs, be more patient with May.

Haskell made a big error sure but I am not his back because he played very well aside from the missed tackle. Same with Ford - he started sloppy but improved as the game went on, same with Kruis after the knock on - people thought he would be the weak link. He wasn't.

In regards to May - perhaps if I saw the AIs I would be more patient - from what I have seen in the 6 nations matches I have personally not been impressed. Perhaps that will change - if it does then I will say so.

My opinions on players do change - e.g. I was hugely critical of Nowell last season yet this year he's a much improved player. Equally with Farrell I thought he had a strong 6 nations but since then he's been mentally and physically shot - a bench spot is no longer a guarantee. From hero to zero.

Ford - from a small man who needs to be protected by his forwards to a small man who confidently tackles men almost twice his weight.....

Joseph - not seen as an option in the centres to a real bright prospect -(that game vs Toulouse.....).

As for Billy Vunipola I didn't think he had a particularly good game, he was alright I guess but didn't seem to run at pace IMO. Both Robshaw and Haskell outshone him.

Robshaw also contributed to the lineout.

Lineout functioned pretty well overall with Robshaw doing his bit there. Hartley needs to work on his throwing too (only fair to criticise him as we fans criticise Youngs for his throwing).

I think some players got isolated simply because of lack of communication - e.g. from a lineout Hartley charged ahead with no support, should have passed the ball out wide but instead got isolated.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:05 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah im not interested in Armitage and certainly not at 8.

Ben Morgan is a class act and Billy is developing nicely as well and a slightly different style.

Agreed - England are set quite nicely at number 8 with Morgan and Billy V. Vunipola had a quiet game against Wales but to give the Welsh credit they marked him well. We know he's capable of more and I certainly this he's the right quality for England and to hold onto the jersey for the tournament.

Dave Ewers also a pretty handy option to have in the background, as well as the vastly experienced Nick Easter.

Armitage for me is a 7, and with Robshaw playing pretty well and holding the captaincy, and Tom Wood/James Haskell also able to play 7, I think it's fairly obvious that Armitage is out of the equation.

by Cowshot Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:16 am

Perhaps we should remember too, that the Wales game was the first run out as a team for this side. I wonder if May would have stepped in to support Ford had they played together a little longer? I'm amazed by Ford's tackling.

I would love to know where the choke tackling in the second half came from. I saw The Hask doing it mostly and know he's been doing it for Wasps at times. The rest of the pack joined in quick. Was that something that was agreed at half time, coaches suggesting etc, or was it done spontaneously on the pitch by the Hask?

by Geordie Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:26 am

FES

Id be looking to bring Ewers in over Croft on the bench. Give him a run out and see what he can do against Italy. Normally I would have said Garvey...but i'm just giving up on that one now Rolling Eyes

Ewers covers 6 and 8 which means you can replace Easter and actually have another lock on the bench to cover....lock.

by **LondonTiger** Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:32 am

I suspect Ewers needs to work more on his fitness and workrate before england will consider him.

by Geordie Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:35 am

Your probably right LT but I still think it would be a good opportunity to have a little look at him and it also allows him to see the level of work rate required etc.

Win/win in my eyes.

by Tiger/Chief Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:40 am

What are you basing that opinion on? one thing Ewers doesn't need to work on is his Work rate! he needs to work on his set piece and skill set if he is to play 8. He is always top of the tackling stats and hits more rucks than any other player at the Chiefs!

by Geordie Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:46 am

Well Exeter seem to prefer him as a 6 anyway after Waldrom's arrival.

by **LondonTiger** Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:55 am

Tiger/Chief wrote:What are you basing that opinion on? one thing Ewers doesn't need to work on is his Work rate! he needs to work on his set piece and skill set if he is to play 8. He is always top of the tackling stats and hits more rucks than any other player at the Chiefs!

I see him as a 6, and while you se him play more than me, in every game I see him play he does something massive then disappears for long periods. I reckon you would have beaten us at Sandy Park if someone like Johnson had played instead of Ewers.

by Tiger/Chief Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:24 pm

Fair points London Tiger! He's a interesting player as even when he was playing at 8 he was packing down at 6 in the scrum. He was very good at running back from tactical kicking but Waldrom now fulfils that role. He's mainly being used as a battering ram off of 2nd phase ball and I've lost count of the amount of times he takes the ball from a Waldrom offload and normally makes it over the gain line.

If England and Chiefs see him as a 6 then he could do worse than watch Haskell's performance v Wales where he was probably the most noticeable player on the pitch

by bluestonevedder Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:25 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Haskell is more powerful than Wood, but not even close to being quicker. Haskell brings muscle (sometimes needed), Wood brings lineout skills and consistency.

One thing no one has brought up in the May debate, is that he tackled the receiver on every kick off that went down his wing. No one else in the side has the pace to get there that quick and stop the receiver before he can either pass or get moving forward and gain momentum. Essentially Wales were stopped dead at the point of contact, the follow up players securing the maul /ruck forcing Wales to kick from deep.

I think he lost on high ball to 1/2p on the attack all game, how many wingers can say that against one of the best defensive 15s in the world.

He did nothing flash but the try which most observers would blame Haskell for, was his only mistake, everything else was solid and professional; Cuthbert didn't get a look in against him.

I was about to post the exact same thing WPI. His defence was excellent other than that brain fart for the try. He's really starting to back his pace.

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