Should Wales sack Gatland and the coaching staff

First topic message reminder :

Just a simple poll from a simple poster to see what people think

Steffan wrote:If Wales lose to Scotland Gatland should be sacked immediately

Sacked? try Racked, hung dawn and quartered and then sent to live in Milton Keynes after a large haggis is branded on his forehead.

His position should be reviewed after the World Cup, as should be the case for all international coaches.

On the replacement question I would opt for Dai Young, with an outsider appointed to coach the backs, not someone from the existing set up.

seriously, scotland are strong. 13 glasgow players in matchday makes the collective a lot greater than the individuals compared to an england, france or wales.

no-one is going to enjoy their trip to murrafield this year.

We know they're strong. We watch Glasgow often and we also got a good look at the Scottish team in the Autumn. They're a lot better drilled and less prone to error, so I think we need to come up with something different if we're to beat them. I bet last year's fixture is also fresh in the memory and they'd like to make amends for that implosion.

Quins, you're confusing Scotland being hard to beat with them being good enough to win, they're much better in defence but they still lack a certain creativity in attack. Any team will have to work hard to beat them but equally they would be very disappointed to lose to them.

The Saint wrote:We know they're strong. We watch Glasgow often and we also got a good look at the Scottish team in the Autumn. They're a lot better drilled and less prone to error, so I think we need to come up with something different if we're to beat them. I bet last year's fixture is also fresh in the memory and they'd like to make amends for that implosion.

reckon hogg will want to avoid getting another red card!

funnyExiledScot wrote:His position should be reviewed after the World Cup, as should be the case for all international coaches.

On the replacement question I would opt for Dai Young, with an outsider appointed to coach the backs, not someone from the existing set up.

I don't think Dai Young would be up to the task, he took many years before getting anything with the Blues and then made very questionable decisions following the 2010 season.

What Gatland has done is put some of the missing pieces in place, we now have better fitness facilities and so on. What Wales need now is someone who can get the most out of our players. A team full of Lions starters should not be so blunt in attack and rubbish in the set piece.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Quins, you're confusing Scotland being hard to beat with them being good enough to win, they're much better in defence but they still lack a certain creativity in attack. Any team will have to work hard to beat them but equally they would be very disappointed to lose to them.

their backs are much improved. bennett is looking dangerous. visser is pants - i prefer to think of him as an open door in defense. hogg amazing returning open field kicks. seymour and maitland both very dangerous.

being disappointed to lose to them is based more on history than the present. its based on what fans who dont truly follow the game expect. so its based on an expectation that lags reality. just like wales on friday. their less sophisticated fans expected to win because england had a lot of injuries and the last match at MS was 30-3. they didnt know that the injuries had forced SL to pick just about the most exciting, in-form back line England have had for 12 years.

IronMike wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:His position should be reviewed after the World Cup, as should be the case for all international coaches.

On the replacement question I would opt for Dai Young, with an outsider appointed to coach the backs, not someone from the existing set up.

I don't think Dai Young would be up to the task, he took many years before getting anything with the Blues and then made very questionable decisions following the 2010 season.

What Gatland has done is put some of the missing pieces in place, we now have better fitness facilities and so on. What Wales need now is someone who can get the most out of our players. A team full of Lions starters should not be so blunt in attack and rubbish in the set piece.

Dai's hands were tied to be honest. He got out of there at a good time and the place just fell apart; the fault of the ones who were tying his hands.

If he wins something with Wasps then yeah he would be a good option, far better than Howley. He seems to take a long time to achieve great things though like you've pointed out.

I stand by saying that England, Wales, France or Ireland would be disappointed to lose to Scotland in the present, it is defeatist to suggest otherwise.

Wales are disappointed losing to England let alone Scotland for christ sake, teams aim for slightly higher than mediocrity.

quinsforever wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Quins, you're confusing Scotland being hard to beat with them being good enough to win, they're much better in defence but they still lack a certain creativity in attack. Any team will have to work hard to beat them but equally they would be very disappointed to lose to them.

their backs are much improved. bennett is looking dangerous. visser is pants - i prefer to think of him as an open door in defense. hogg amazing returning open field kicks. seymour and maitland both very dangerous.

being disappointed to lose to them is based more on history than the present. its based on what fans who dont truly follow the game expect. so its based on an expectation that lags reality. just like wales on friday. their less sophisticated fans expected to win because england had a lot of injuries and the last match at MS was 30-3. they didnt know that the injuries had forced SL to pick just about the most exciting, in-form back line England have had for 12 years.

Wales put 50 on Scotland last term, following defeats by England and Ireland. Much as you can predict an improved performance against Wlaes this year, you can also be sure Wales will, as per usual, be unrecognizable from last week. Again quoins your wish to see Wales lose to Scotland does not mean it will happen.

Wales will be up against it, no doubt, but Scotland have had little success against them for years and though i agree they are on an upturn tho suggestion that being disappointed to lose to them is far from an historical premise, Wlaes have repeatedly beaten them home and away for years now and in fact in 2010 turned in the greatest end to a rugby match i have ever seen. There is no reality lag in the stats.

just saying, i wouldnt be at all surprised to see Scotland win. nothing to do with Wales. everything to do with the quality and style that Scotland have been displaying. and the massive pressure on Wales not to lose.

yes everyone would be disappointed to lose to scotland. but i reckon they take 1 or 2 big scalps this tournament. fingers crossed its not england!

Saint re Darren Edwards - have you seen Bath play this year? He has them on fire and our (Dragons) backline at the beginning of last season were playing very well before Lyn derailed us by letting players know they would be leaving before season was up...

IMO on what I have seen he is a good backs coach

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I stand by saying that England, Wales, France or Ireland would be disappointed to lose to Scotland in the present, it is defeatist to suggest otherwise.

Wales are disappointed losing to England let alone Scotland for christ sake, teams aim for slightly higher than mediocrity.

f course same as Scotland will be disappointed to lose!

TJ wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I stand by saying that England, Wales, France or Ireland would be disappointed to lose to Scotland in the present, it is defeatist to suggest otherwise.

Wales are disappointed losing to England let alone Scotland for christ sake, teams aim for slightly higher than mediocrity.

f course  same as Scotland will be disappointed to lose!

Disappointed but not surprised surely? Scotland after all are tending to put in plucky performances in defeat.

This year we are expecting rather more

TJ wrote:This year we are expecting rather more

Based on hope rather than anything else though. Until the guys start winning games anyway.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maj,

Any nation thinking of sacking their coach this close to the WC is mad IMO there just not enough time to bed a new coach in.

As for the North issue there seems to be a lot of heated but not much informed debates going on at the moment.  

He apparently passed all the tests they carry out these days and the medics said he was fit to carry on so surely you take the recommendations, after all from what I believe they have the final say now and nothing has come out saying Gatland over ruled the medics.

If a player gets sparked out a second time they are off.

isn't that the rules?

damage_13 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maj,

Any nation thinking of sacking their coach this close to the WC is mad IMO there just not enough time to bed a new coach in.

As for the North issue there seems to be a lot of heated but not much informed debates going on at the moment.  

He apparently passed all the tests they carry out these days and the medics said he was fit to carry on so surely you take the recommendations, after all from what I believe they have the final say now and nothing has come out saying Gatland over ruled the medics.

If a player gets sparked out a second time they are off.

isn't that the rules?

Not sure but the fuss seems to be over the fact the 2nd time didn't get spotted somehow, but by early reports it seems he's been cleared to play and is available for selection this weekend.

This loss to England does not suddenly make Wales a bad side - it should be a much needed wake up call though. Wales need Gatland to adapt and change Wales for the better. He's not become a bad coach overnight either.

Something different is needed to shake Wales - perhaps dropping Halfpenny and playing Williams instead for example.

No they shouldn't sack Gatland - trust him to turn it around.

Not sure how we only lost that by 5 points. Scrum was stuffed. Lineout was dodgy. Up against a better-organised team playing heads-up rugby and with their plans for how to deal with us. Slow, slow ball. Poor kicking. Ball-carriers isolated.

The inability to react to events on the Welsh side is depressing. To me it seems that the coaching set-up is short of intelligence, which is partly why it reacts to this sort of warning shot by stubbornly insisting it'll carry on doing the same. They don't really seem to know how to do anything else. We won't do well at the World Cup if this is really all we have to offer. And on the field, there is too little rugby intelligence, which you can only deal with by having a couple of different players in there.

Of course, you can't just make wholesale changes from one week to the next, but I would like to see us working towards a team with Rob Evans, Hibbard and Lee, AWJ and Ball/Charteris (thought Charteris was good when he came on), Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau, Gareth Davies, Patchell, Scott Williams, Tyler Morgan, North/Amos, 1/2p and Liam Williams. That pack looks underpowered, though, we need a really big scary lock and a big, athletic 6/8.

How many changes will we see for next week? Only enforced changes, I'll bet, or maybe the awful option of Phillips in for Webb.

I do wonder if the confidence/buying into the plan thing makes it more likely that there will be no changes. To make huge changes will be admitting that Gatland got the team selection and tactics wrong.

In other words making big changes will require Gatland to accept loss of face.

I don't think Gats can change course nor will he be sacked. However I do feel that he is holding this teamback with the tactics he plays - and he selects for the tactics he wants to play not selects the best players and then chooses tactics to suit.

I'd love to see 1/2p given license to attack from anywhere, I'd love to see some backs moves to vreate space by confusing the defense.

Everyone knows how Wales are going to play thus can set up the tactics to stop them. Executing these tactics is a different matter tho but England did it.

One thing I would add about 1/2p. He was really trying, but every time you saw him catch the ball and run it looked like every other red shirt just stood and watched. There have been many games when Wales have played poorly that he has seemed like the only Welsh back actually working hard and trying to do anything.

Yes, you can never fault 1/2p for effort and courage, and I think he is a very good player, but he has become very conservative.

BlueNote wrote:Yes, you can never fault 1/2p for effort and courage, and I think he is a very good player, but he has become very conservative.

The thing what I can't understand is the difference between Halfpenny and Li Williams.

We here all the time about the players playing to and sticking to the plan which it seems halfpenny does but then when Williams comes on he seems to ignore it.

So is it Halfpenny afraid not deviate from the plan or unsure of himself or is it as I mentioned Williams just ignoring the plan and thinking sod it let's give it a go.

It's hard to know, Bedford, although I don't think he has ever been a flair player in the way LW is.

What about Jonathan Davies as the Head Coach with Jeremy Guscott as his assistant?

Alternatively Wales can look at going back to the great days of the early 1990's when a certain Neath Coach named Ron Waldron picked a very lightweight All Neath front row, with a lock forward (Paul Arnold) as the number 8 when facing the mighty huge pack that England had back then.

quinsforever wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Quins, you're confusing Scotland being hard to beat with them being good enough to win, they're much better in defence but they still lack a certain creativity in attack. Any team will have to work hard to beat them but equally they would be very disappointed to lose to them.

their backs are much improved. bennett is looking dangerous. visser is pants - i prefer to think of him as an open door in defense. hogg amazing returning open field kicks. seymour and maitland both very dangerous.

being disappointed to lose to them is based more on history than the present. its based on what fans who dont truly follow the game expect. so its based on an expectation that lags reality. just like wales on friday. their less sophisticated fans expected to win because england had a lot of injuries and the last match at MS was 30-3. they didnt know that the injuries had forced SL to pick just about the most exciting, in-form back line England have had for 12 years.

:salute:

Yes and no. I've always said that teams need freshening up from time to time or things turn stale. So I can understand the fans getting bored of things.

What has to be taken into account with Gatland is he has won the 6 nations three times! Ireland won it once between Eddie O'Sullivan and Kidney and Stuart Lancaster has yet to win it.

To me he has overachieved with Wales. Against England the pack got bullied and the scrum was comfortably second best. There's not a whole lot Gatland can do about that.

After the world cup I think would be best . need to freshen up the tactics unless of course he wins the remaining six nation games and reach the world cup final, then hes god again

i dont think anyone of quality would want the job 6 months before a world cup. most welsh national team players have only ever play Gatball. so it's going to be more than a matter of a different drawing on a chalkboard to get the team to play differently.

but after RWC, if they dont get out of the group, would be the right time to refresh the tree of rugby thinking with the blood of a kiwi methinks.

profitius wrote:
To me he has overachieved with Wales. Against England the pack got bullied and the scrum was comfortably second best. There's not a whole lot Gatland can do about that.

What will we do about it because I have a feeling we'll be second best in that area too?

There has to be avenues open to sides knowing they're going to suffer at scrum time. Gatland and his boys just have to adapt to the notion that they are not dominant there anymore. It seems he's resisting the idea though.

If (as I think) Howley is being lined up as next after Gatland then I hope Gatland stays as long as possible.

Well done Gatland. Outsmarted Schmidt all over the pitch.

profitius wrote:Well done Gatland. Outsmarted Schmidt all over the pitch.

Gatlandball beat Schmidtball.

Its all a bit rock paper scissors with Eng, Ire and Wales at the moment

Gatland will leave after the world cup, now Roger Lewis has been put to the pastures the golden goose is not just cooked but incinerated. He's hinted as much recently. Wales don't get out of the group then he's got the perfect opportunity to call it a day.

gcBlues wrote:Gatland will leave after the world cup, now Roger Lewis has been put to the pastures the golden goose is not just cooked but incinerated. He's hinted as much recently. Wales don't get out of the group then he's got the perfect opportunity to call it a day.

I never realized Gatland viewed himself as Lewis's man, does the new head shed get to review contracts then, i guess he does.

The Saint wrote:

profitius wrote:Well done Gatland. Outsmarted Schmidt all over the pitch.

Gatlandball beat Schmidtball.

One apiece. Grand.

And people still undervalue...Edwards. Seldom gets a mention. But I think he's the real coaching engine.

Well played Wales