Taking the player out in the air.

First topic message reminder :

Fallout from Wales vs Scotland.

This taking the player in the air is nonsense. Both yellows IMO were not worthy of getting cards. Secondly Warburton and Gatland claiming Russel should have been red carded is really really uncalled for. It was an accident, no malice (unlike Hogg last year).

So here is my suggestion.

If the ball is in the air, keep your feet on the ground.

Anyone jumping for a ball with their knees up should be penalized and yellow carded. If your not jumping in the air it's pretty hard to land on your head.

Whilst you are at it, lets bring back properly calling for the mark as a fullback. That will bring positioning back instead of being able to catch it whilst diving.

jimbopip wrote:Morning Doc, I was at Murrayfield and both live and then on the big screen I thought Russell was hard done by. If you watch his eyes he moves across to catch the ball. He's watching it intently and then at the last moment he sees Biggar flying through the air at him. My interpretation of what happened next is that Russell instinctively flinched; he puts his chin into his chest, pulls his shoulders up to his ears and turns away from the contact. (As one of nature's cowards I recognise self-preservation in others when I see it). I don'tk it was deliberate or malicious in anyway. But I'm Scottish so may be partisan. However, I am beginning to believe tat challenging for theall in the air is inherently unsafe and so probably should be banned.
Also, if Russell is banned for this then, on a selfish note, my visit to Twickers next month will be a lot less enjoyable.

Just watched it again and I agree with your analysis.  Nothing malicious, and Russell made the mistake of seeing Biggar too late.  Once he did, he went into self-preservation mode, flinched and turned away.  

I think a yellow is appropriate only because Biggar was already making a play on the ball in the air.  At that point responsibility shifts to Russell to avoid taking the opponent out in the air - even if accidental, which to me seems to clearly be the case.  It is important because this is how we protect our players.  If Russell was a half stride further forwards and jumped going for the ball then likely no foul at all.

doctor_grey wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Morning Doc, I was at Murrayfield and both live and then on the big screen I thought Russell was hard done by. If you watch his eyes he moves across to catch the ball. He's watching it intently and then at the last moment he sees Biggar flying through the air at him. My interpretation of what happened next is that Russell instinctively flinched; he puts his chin into his chest, pulls his shoulders up to his ears and turns away from the contact. (As one of nature's cowards I recognise self-preservation in others when I see it). I don'tk it was deliberate or malicious in anyway. But I'm Scottish so may be partisan. However, I am beginning to believe tat challenging for theall in the air is inherently unsafe and so probably should be banned.
Also, if Russell is banned for this then, on a selfish note, my visit to Twickers next month will be a lot less enjoyable.

Just watched it again and I agree with your analysis.  Nothing malicious, and Russell made the mistake of seeing Biggar too late.  Once he did, he went into self-preservation mode, flinched and turned away.  

I think a yellow is appropriate only because Biggar was already making a play on the ball in the air.  At that point responsibility shifts to Russell to avoid taking the opponent out in the air - even if accidental, which to me seems to clearly be the case.  It is important because this is how we protect our players.  If Russell was a half stride further forwards and jumped going for the ball then likely no foul at all.

Apparently warburton was nagging the ref to give a red card; that and liam willams footballesque celebration of his non try shows the welsh are going, if they get away with it, to bring rugby down to football level. For me calling for the ref to give a red card should be automatic sending off offence .

Its pure bad sportmanship, and we absolutely need to stamp it out from rugby before its too late

Biltong wrote:Just watch the video clip.

I have, again, and he's clearly moving.

Another scenario.

A defender is under the ball. Not moving awaiting a mark. They are side on (as i was told to be at school). Th kick chase comes from behind and jumps for th ball.

There is a collison. Whos fault is it

alive555 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Morning Doc, I was at Murrayfield and both live and then on the big screen I thought Russell was hard done by. If you watch his eyes he moves across to catch the ball. He's watching it intently and then at the last moment he sees Biggar flying through the air at him. My interpretation of what happened next is that Russell instinctively flinched; he puts his chin into his chest, pulls his shoulders up to his ears and turns away from the contact. (As one of nature's cowards I recognise self-preservation in others when I see it). I don'tk it was deliberate or malicious in anyway. But I'm Scottish so may be partisan. However, I am beginning to believe tat challenging for theall in the air is inherently unsafe and so probably should be banned.
Also, if Russell is banned for this then, on a selfish note, my visit to Twickers next month will be a lot less enjoyable.

Just watched it again and I agree with your analysis.  Nothing malicious, and Russell made the mistake of seeing Biggar too late.  Once he did, he went into self-preservation mode, flinched and turned away.  

I think a yellow is appropriate only because Biggar was already making a play on the ball in the air.  At that point responsibility shifts to Russell to avoid taking the opponent out in the air - even if accidental, which to me seems to clearly be the case.  It is important because this is how we protect our players.  If Russell was a half stride further forwards and jumped going for the ball then likely no foul at all.

Apparently warburton was nagging the ref to give a red card; that and liam willams footballesque celebration of his non try shows the welsh are going, if they get away with it, to bring rugby down to football level. For me calling for the ref to give a red card should be automatic sending off offence .

Its pure bad sportmanship, and we absolutely need to stamp it out from rugby before its too late

So we are back to slagging off Heaslip for appealing to the ref before he had even gone to ground then?

Biltong wrote:Just watch the video clip.

Indeed. Its clear what actually happened.

Riskysports wrote:Another scenario.

A defender is under the ball. Not moving awaiting a mark. They are side on (as i was told to be at school). Th kick chase comes from behind and jumps for th ball.

There is a collison. Whos fault is it

If you are stationary its fine surely. You cannot be penalised If the onrushing player misses the catch and collides then he is penalised?

doctor_grey wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Morning Doc, I was at Murrayfield and both live and then on the big screen I thought Russell was hard done by. If you watch his eyes he moves across to catch the ball. He's watching it intently and then at the last moment he sees Biggar flying through the air at him. My interpretation of what happened next is that Russell instinctively flinched; he puts his chin into his chest, pulls his shoulders up to his ears and turns away from the contact. (As one of nature's cowards I recognise self-preservation in others when I see it). I don'tk it was deliberate or malicious in anyway. But I'm Scottish so may be partisan. However, I am beginning to believe tat challenging for theall in the air is inherently unsafe and so probably should be banned.
Also, if Russell is banned for this then, on a selfish note, my visit to Twickers next month will be a lot less enjoyable.

Just watched it again and I agree with your analysis.  Nothing malicious, and Russell made the mistake of seeing Biggar too late.  Once he did, he went into self-preservation mode, flinched and turned away.  

I think a yellow is appropriate only because Biggar was already making a play on the ball in the air.  At that point responsibility shifts to Russell to avoid taking the opponent out in the air - even if accidental, which to me seems to clearly be the case.  It is important because this is how we protect our players.  If Russell was a half stride further forwards and jumped going for the ball then likely no foul at all.

Absolutely agree, I think it was the correct call.

I hope that the citing has only been made because of the bad fall the player took, and there are two potential issues of foul play that they need to look at. Hopefully on review they will see the lack of intent and that Russell was already committed to his path when Biggar jumped. Whilst his subsequent actions made the collision and impact worse, there was clearly no genuine intent nor was the action as reckless as the Welsh chaps thought at the time.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Biltong wrote:Just watch the video clip.

I have, again, and he's clearly moving.

If you are alive and breathing you are moving, he wasn't going forward.

TJ wrote:

Riskysports wrote:Another scenario.

A defender is under the ball. Not moving awaiting a mark. They are side on (as i was told to be at school). Th kick chase comes from behind and jumps for th ball.

There is a collison. Whos fault is it

If you are stationary its fine surely.  You cannot be penalised  If the onrushing player misses the catch and collides then he is penalised?

then tweak that and run to the mark - stop a split second before the other player and then get crushed but a flying knee - whos fault

If the player was stationary before the other jumped then it's the jumpee's fault. If the player was still moving but stopped after the jump his fault.

Taking a Thread Too Far is I think the new name that this one should go by now....

I think saying the Welsh as a whole are trying to bring the game down to football levels is a tad unfair, the likes of Jamie Roberts and Jonathan Davies ruin that theory that said Dan Biggar and Warburton should be banned for the rest of the tournament for asking for a red card and Liam Williams is an all round tool. Tbf we have a bit of a tool in Stuart Hogg but he's just better than their tool and anyone else we've got.

An interesting take on the incident I found in the guardian which is not my paper of choice by any means.

Robert Kitson wrote:


There should also be a rethink about players who collide with opponents in the air. Yes, Dan Biggar was lucky not to hurt himself badly when Russell – who has been cited – made contact as the former went to gather a garryowen. But surely the law is primarily designed to protect the catcher, not the chaser? What was Russell supposed to do when Biggar threw himself at the ball? The Scottish fly-half spotted the looming danger only at the last minute, tried to pull out and still got a yellow card for being precisely where he had to be if he wanted to gather the kick. In terms of recklessness, you could argue as much fault lay with Biggar.

Players are clearly being coached to get off the ground because they know the law is then weighted in their favour. But to penalise the receiver for standing his ground is like pinging a football goalkeeper for obstruction as he goes to catch a corner. Safer and fairer, surely, to decree no player from the kicking side can challenge for possession until the defender has touched a descending ball and has returned to terra firma.

Good article. Another interesting suggestion. Still don't really know what the right thing to do is.

Safety (to a reasonable level) is the most important factor, but the current laws are exploitable.

alive555 wrote:
Apparently warburton was nagging the ref to give a red card; that and liam willams footballesque celebration of his non try shows the welsh are going, if they get away with it, to bring rugby down to football level. For me calling for the ref to give a red card should be automatic sending off offence .

Its pure bad sportmanship, and we absolutely need to stamp it out from rugby before its too late

Quite so, as was big bad Beattie's appealing on the floor before Davies' yellow (not to mention the howling from the stands), Hogg's try celebration and Laidlaw's Premier League manager's moan about the referee correctly blowing for full time after Russell decided to take an age to take his conversion and "the enforcer" Jim Hamilton decided to try mounting AWJ.

I would be interested to have a bit more substance to what Warburton is meant to have done though. He is entitled as a captain to speak to a referee.

123456789 wrote:I think saying the Welsh as a whole are trying to bring the game down to football levels is a tad unfair, the likes of Jamie Roberts and Jonathan Davies ruin that theory that said Dan Biggar and Warburton should be banned for the rest of the tournament for asking for a red card and Liam Williams is an all round tool. Tbf we have a bit of a tool in Stuart Hogg but he's just better than their tool and anyone else we've got.

An interesting take on the incident I found in the guardian which is not my paper of choice by any means.

Robert Kitson wrote:


There should also be a rethink about players who collide with opponents in the air. Yes, Dan Biggar was lucky not to hurt himself badly when Russell – who has been cited – made contact as the former went to gather a garryowen. But surely the law is primarily designed to protect the catcher, not the chaser? What was Russell supposed to do when Biggar threw himself at the ball? The Scottish fly-half spotted the looming danger only at the last minute, tried to pull out and still got a yellow card for being precisely where he had to be if he wanted to gather the kick. In terms of recklessness, you could argue as much fault lay with Biggar.

Players are clearly being coached to get off the ground because they know the law is then weighted in their favour. But to penalise the receiver for standing his ground is like pinging a football goalkeeper for obstruction as he goes to catch a corner. Safer and fairer, surely, to decree no player from the kicking side can challenge for possession until the defender has touched a descending ball and has returned to terra firma.

Those f**kers in the press read 606 for 'their' opinons  I'm convinced of it.

Hi Guys!!!!  How's the overly paid jobs going????

Risca Rev wrote:

alive555 wrote:
Apparently warburton was nagging the ref to give a red card; that and liam willams footballesque celebration of his non try shows the welsh are going, if they get away with it, to bring rugby down to football level. For me calling for the ref to give a red card should be automatic sending off offence .

Its pure bad sportmanship, and we absolutely need to stamp it out from rugby before its too late

Quite so, as was big bad Beattie's appealing on the floor before Davies' yellow (AGREED) (not to mention the howling from the stands), Hogg's try celebration (did not really notice any try celebrations on either side being bad) and Laidlaw's Premier League manager's moan (Agreed) about the referee correctly (Disagree) blowing for full time after Russell decided to take an age to take his conversion and "the enforcer" Jim Hamilton decided to try mounting AWJ (AS i believe it was started by someone having a go at Hamilton, it shows two things -smart Welsh knowing who to wind up to use the time - and second - Hamliton is a liability).

I would be interested to have a bit more substance to what Warburton is meant to have done though (he has previous in waving his hands around asking for cards does he not?). He is entitled as a captain to speak to a referee (yes, but not to ask for a card - he can ask for clarification on a decision).

All in all, our game is moving down a path to losing respect for the ref - and all teams and all fans need to stand up to this and not spend their time pointing fingers at others, as that will get us no-where. All teams do it

I think the fact of the matter is that every sport causes injury ours causes more than most but when you take to the field you are aware that you may well get injured and when you jump into the air to catch the ball that risk is amplified. If Russell ran looking at Biggar and deliberately took him out then it should be red but there is no doubt he ran looking at the ball. Both went for the ball.

Also I can't say for a fact this is true but someone I know say directly behind the try said Hamilton kicked off after Phillips stamped on Jon welsh's hand and in the process ending his six nations.

Did Biggar and Warburton really ask the referee to issue a Red Card?

Yeah Warburton asked for a red after the yellow was issued and then Biggar stood up and shouted at the red to give him a red as he "could have broken (his) neck"

Just shows you to what lengths teams will go these days to win a match.

Riskysports wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

alive555 wrote:
Apparently warburton was nagging the ref to give a red card; that and liam willams footballesque celebration of his non try shows the welsh are going, if they get away with it, to bring rugby down to football level. For me calling for the ref to give a red card should be automatic sending off offence .

Its pure bad sportmanship, and we absolutely need to stamp it out from rugby before its too late

Quite so, as was big bad Beattie's appealing on the floor before Davies' yellow (AGREED) (not to mention the howling from the stands), Hogg's try celebration (did not really notice any try celebrations on either side being bad) and Laidlaw's Premier League manager's moan (Agreed) about the referee correctly (Disagree) blowing for full time after Russell decided to take an age to take his conversion and "the enforcer" Jim Hamilton decided to try mounting AWJ (AS i believe it was started by someone having a go at Hamilton, it shows two things -smart Welsh knowing who to wind up to use the time - and second - Hamliton is a liability).

I would be interested to have a bit more substance to what Warburton is meant to have done though (he has previous in waving his hands around asking for cards does he not?). He is entitled as a captain to speak to a referee (yes, but not to ask for a card - he can ask for clarification on a decision).

All in all, our game is moving down a path to losing respect for the ref - and all teams and all fans need to stand up to this and not spend their time pointing fingers at others, as that will get us no-where. All teams do it

Quite so, just adding a bit of balance to the post I quoted. I'm quite happy for Wales to be painted as sinners and Scotland as saints, but only if it is balanced. I don't really believe that the ref correctly blew for FT either

123456789 wrote:Also I can't say for a fact this is true but someone I know say directly behind the try said Hamilton kicked off after Phillips stamped on Jon welsh's hand and in the process ending his six nations.

He kicked off with AWJ didn't he? Gatland mentioned he thought it was because of AWJ holding Welsh up.

123456789 wrote:Also I can't say for a fact this is true but someone I know say directly behind the try said Hamilton kicked off after Phillips stamped on Jon welsh's hand and in the process ending his six nations.

I would hope that this would be picked up and a citing following if true - as that is premeditated and malicious and has resulted in an injury ruling him out of the rest of the 6 nations

123456789 wrote:I think saying the Welsh as a whole are trying to bring the game down to football levels is a tad unfair, the likes of Jamie Roberts and Jonathan Davies ruin that theory that said Dan Biggar and Warburton should be banned for the rest of the tournament for asking for a red card and Liam Williams is an all round tool. Tbf we have a bit of a tool in Stuart Hogg but he's just better than their tool and anyone else we've got.

An interesting take on the incident I found in the guardian which is not my paper of choice by any means.

Robert Kitson wrote:


There should also be a rethink about players who collide with opponents in the air. Yes, Dan Biggar was lucky not to hurt himself badly when Russell – who has been cited – made contact as the former went to gather a garryowen. But surely the law is primarily designed to protect the catcher, not the chaser? What was Russell supposed to do when Biggar threw himself at the ball? The Scottish fly-half spotted the looming danger only at the last minute, tried to pull out and still got a yellow card for being precisely where he had to be if he wanted to gather the kick. In terms of recklessness, you could argue as much fault lay with Biggar.

Players are clearly being coached to get off the ground because they know the law is then weighted in their favour. But to penalise the receiver for standing his ground is like pinging a football goalkeeper for obstruction as he goes to catch a corner. Safer and fairer, surely, to decree no player from the kicking side can challenge for possession until the defender has touched a descending ball and has returned to terra firma.

exactly correct. spot on .
thats what i have been banging on about !! russell was right under the trajectory of the ball

123456789 wrote:Yeah Warburton asked for a red after the yellow was issued and then Biggar stood up and shouted at the red to give him a red as he "could have broken (his) neck"

That's Warburton's continually mentioned moral victory against Alain Rolland finally put to bed then. Anytime it comes up now, we can just say 'and Warburton knew he deserved it'

Risca Rev wrote:

123456789 wrote:Also I can't say for a fact this is true but someone I know say directly behind the try said Hamilton kicked off after Phillips stamped on Jon welsh's hand and in the process ending his six nations.

He kicked off with AWJ didn't he? Gatland mentioned he thought it was because of AWJ holding Welsh up.

Could well have been the guy I know putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 if what you're saying is true it shows that Jim has literally no brain to speak of.

123456789 wrote:Also I can't say for a fact this is true but someone I know say directly behind the try said Hamilton kicked off after Phillips stamped on Jon welsh's hand and in the process ending his six nations.

Phillips was nowhere near when Welsh scored as he was defending closer to Wales' right wing. He did, naturally, come running in when he saw a fight kicking off, but Welsh was already stood up by that point.

Riskysports wrote:

123456789 wrote:Also I can't say for a fact this is true but someone I know say directly behind the try said Hamilton kicked off after Phillips stamped on Jon welsh's hand and in the process ending his six nations.

I would hope that this would be picked up and a citing following if true - as that is premeditated and malicious and has resulted in an injury ruling him out of the rest of the 6 nations

What has an injury got to do with the offence?

Because had what I was told been true then big Jim was hardly kicking off over something trivial

123456789 wrote:Because had what I was told been true then big Jim was hardly kicking off over something trivial

Big Jim as our resident violent penalty magnet hardman, it doesn't normally take much to set him off.

Biltong wrote:Did Biggar and Warburton really ask the referee to issue a Red Card?

Sadly, yes. I had bought the ref mike thing for young Pipetto but he couldn't follow what was being said so he gave it to me. The ball had gone out and Biggar walked along behind the ref giving him a diatribe, the gist of which was to attempt to intimidate the ref into giving a red . "Does he have to break my neck before you give a red card? That kind of tackle is ridiculous at international level. It's got to be a red , do you want my neck to get broken?" It reminded me very much of Don Revie's Leeds United and the way they were coached to browbeat referees and thereby influence the subsequent decisions. It was the only really unsavoury moment in an otherwise very enjoyable day. As I've said elsewhere it was a great day out, the Welsh fans were a smashing lot and young Pipetto had a fantastic match for his first outing. Yes Glenda Jackson made some howlers and Clownshoes Clancy continues his anti-Scottish vendetta but the result isn't that important 6 Nations rugby is, and always should be, about the celebration of our wonderful game.
However, behaviour like Biggar's musn't be tolerated.

p.s. Doc Grey thanks for the strength, good JuJu always appreciated.

Biltong wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Biltong wrote:Just watch the video clip.

I have, again, and he's clearly moving.

If you are alive and breathing you are moving, he wasn't going forward.

He clearly moved into position after Biggar had jumped. I fail to see why it matters whether it was forward, backwards or sideways. He wasn't moving as fast as Biggar, although just before the ball landed he accelerated to be under it.

We have lots of hard men Unfortunately by hard we mean not very good at rugby and some seem to become much harder when somebody comments on their fancy dress outfit

jimbopip wrote:

Biltong wrote:Did Biggar and Warburton really ask the referee to issue a Red Card?

Sadly, yes. I had bought the ref mike thing for young Pipetto but he couldn't follow what was being said so he gave it to me. The ball had gone out and Biggar walked along behind the ref giving him a diatribe, the gist of which was to attempt to intimidate the ref into giving a red . "Does he have to break my neck before you give a red card? That kind of tackle is ridiculous at international level. It's got to be a red , do you want my neck to get broken?" It reminded me very much of Don Revie's Leeds United and the way they were coached to browbeat referees and thereby influence the subsequent decisions. It was the only really unsavoury moment in an otherwise very enjoyable day. As I've said elsewhere it was a great day out, the Welsh fans were a smashing lot and young Pipetto had a fantastic match for his first outing. Yes Glenda Jackson made some howlers and Clownshoes Clancy continues his anti-Scottish vendetta but the result isn't that important 6 Nations rugby is, and always should be, about the celebration of our wonderful game.
However, behaviour like Biggar's musn't be tolerated.

p.s. Doc Grey thanks for the strength, good JuJu always appreciated.

So the YC should of stood but the penalty reversed for the backchat

When you've been maliciously targeted multiple times before as Biggar has, see the incidents involving Paulo and Hogg, you do tend to get a little riled up when you're taken out again. I would be appealing to the ref too, how about Biggar's protection? people seem to be playing the victim and forgetting there are two people in this incident.

Regardless of what you believe about the laws at the moment, Russell could have avoided the contact and chose not to. I'm not saying he wanted to injure Biggar, or that he intended for the collision to be as bad, but he knew that by holding his line there would be contact.

Russell could have avoided the contact? That's ludicrous he was looking to get the ball avoiding the contact would have allowed Biggar a free run to the line. Webb could have avoided the contact when he tried to decapitate Sam hidalgo clyne. Let's all go and play touch then or even better netball

CurlyOsp wrote:When you've been maliciously targeted multiple times before as Biggar has, see the incidents involving Paulo and Hogg, you do tend to get a little riled up when you're taken out again. I would be appealing to the ref too, how about Biggar's protection? people seem to be playing the victim and forgetting there are two people in this incident.

Regardless of what you believe about the laws at the moment, Russell could have avoided the contact and chose not to. I'm not saying he wanted to injure Biggar, or that he intended for the collision to be as bad, but he knew that by holding his line there would be contact.

The only thing i disagree with is "Russell could have avoided the contact and chose not to" as if you watch it he is running with eyes on the ball until the last moment. There was very little that could be done to avoid the contact

Yes, Biggar had a right to be annoyed -but there still in no excuse for ANY player to talk to a ref like that. And I include Hogg rant in the same game

Touch is far too much like hard work. I don't know how taxing netball is, so might look at that.

123456789 wrote:Russell could have avoided the contact? That's ludicrous he was looking to get the ball avoiding the contact would have allowed Biggar a free run to the line. Webb could have avoided the contact when he tried to decapitate Sam hidalgo clyne. Let's all go and play touch then or even better netball

So dangerous play is okay as long as it saves a try? Look again, Laidlaw was covering. Even if not, holding his run or changing his course marginally either way would have avoided that collision and still given Russell time to make the tackle. These situations happen every match at every level yet there's hardly ever this kind of contact. Why? Because players know how to deal with it without being dangerous.

I dont think he couldve avoided contact at all, or at least not very easily, but he couldve made more of ( or maybe a better) an effort to avoid it ending so horribly.

I genuinely believe that Biggar and his chums werent fully aware of the slo mo replay unfolding of events that led to his anger after the fall. The outbreak of fisticuffs looked spontaneous rather than playing up the the ref to get red card.
I would imagine after watching it back Biggar would be thinking " Ok I ghet why that was a yellow now".
From the perspective of a player whos eyes were on the ball and likely first new about Russell being there when his legs got taken out from under him it wouldve seemed like a textbook assassination attempt.

CurlyOsp wrote:

123456789 wrote:Russell could have avoided the contact? That's ludicrous he was looking to get the ball avoiding the contact would have allowed Biggar a free run to the line. Webb could have avoided the contact when he tried to decapitate Sam hidalgo clyne. Let's all go and play touch then or even better netball

So dangerous play is okay as long as it saves a try? Look again, Laidlaw was covering. Even if not, holding his run or changing his course marginally either way would have avoided that collision and still given Russell time to make the tackle. These situations happen every match at every level yet there's hardly ever this kind of contact. Why? Because players know how to deal with it without being dangerous.

But this actually goes to the whole heart of the discussion on jumping

The current laws mean that a jumper has more right to the ball than a person on the ground. Which is wrong.

Both were going for the ball, both ended up the same place - yet as one jumped they have the right to space and the other has no right to a space he has arrived at.

But almost all aspects of our game are dangerous to ask Russell not to compete for the ball there is tantamount to asking somebody not to tackle someone on the tryline. Also think of the backlash if he'd swerved out of the way and Biggar had scored, we certainly wouldn't be here applauding his effort

Riskysports wrote:

CurlyOsp wrote:

123456789 wrote:Russell could have avoided the contact? That's ludicrous he was looking to get the ball avoiding the contact would have allowed Biggar a free run to the line. Webb could have avoided the contact when he tried to decapitate Sam hidalgo clyne. Let's all go and play touch then or even better netball

So dangerous play is okay as long as it saves a try? Look again, Laidlaw was covering. Even if not, holding his run or changing his course marginally either way would have avoided that collision and still given Russell time to make the tackle. These situations happen every match at every level yet there's hardly ever this kind of contact. Why? Because players know how to deal with it without being dangerous.

But this actually goes to the whole heart of the discussion on jumping

The current laws mean that a jumper has more right to the ball than a person on the ground. Which is wrong.

Both were going for the ball, both ended up the same place - yet as one jumped they have the right to space and the other has no right to a space he has arrived at.

Only if the person on the ground goes into contact anyway. My interpretation is that Russell realises he isn't in time to compete and takes contact knowingly. Unfortunately I can't find a link to it, but I remember a similar situation with Gareth Thomas where he stepped to the side rather than taking the contact, then made the tackle safely and won the turnover. Russell isn't at full tilt like some are claiming, he has time to alter his course and still stop the player safely.

They didn't arrive at the same space or they would have bumped chests

But he does try to avoid contact he sucks his head and arches his back which was fortunate otherwise he'd have been knocked out and we all know how damaging that would have been for the game

Protecting himself, not avoiding the contact. The same way that a footballer might turn his body while jumping to block a shot.

jimbopip wrote:

Biltong wrote:Did Biggar and Warburton really ask the referee to issue a Red Card?

Sadly, yes. I had bought the ref mike thing for young Pipetto but he couldn't follow what was being said so he gave it to me. The ball had gone out and Biggar walked along behind the ref giving him a diatribe, the gist of which was to attempt to intimidate the ref into giving a red . "Does he have to break my neck before you give a red card? That kind of tackle is ridiculous at international level. It's got to be a red , do you want my neck to get broken?" It reminded me very much of Don Revie's Leeds United and the way they were coached to browbeat referees and thereby influence the subsequent decisions. It was the only really unsavoury moment in an otherwise very enjoyable day. As I've said elsewhere it was a great day out, the Welsh fans were a smashing lot and young Pipetto had a fantastic match for his first outing. Yes Glenda Jackson made some howlers and Clownshoes Clancy continues his anti-Scottish vendetta but the result isn't that important 6 Nations rugby is, and always should be, about the celebration of our wonderful game.
However, behaviour like Biggar's musn't be tolerated.

p.s. Doc Grey thanks for the strength, good JuJu always appreciated.

You are correct, it is sad, but also a little desperate and pathetic.

And how about Russell mocking Jonathan Davies when he got carded? Or Lamont milking a card by pushing Davies into Beattie? Are these things we want the younger generation picking up on?

It's easy enough to make the Welsh out to be the bad guys, but people in glass houses would be wise not to throw stones.