Ireland v England - Match Thread

[GunsGerms]

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:



Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

[lostinwales]

I am not underestimating Browns' abilities and do see him as being a big loss for England. I just don't see Goode being as bad as many seem to think he is.

I agree that maybe dropping Watson to 15 may have been a decent option but I still feel that Goode is the next best 15 in England.

I don't think many believe him as bad as the volume of posts would suggest NJ.

For myself I find it a bit of a disappointing selection because I'm finally starting to feel that we are looking at back three players with the raw attributes needed to be able to threaten an international defence - pace, power, quick feet, pace...

That's where Goode will feel like a step backwards to many fans. Whilst he definitely has his attributes, ones which could be vital in Dublin too, he is lacking in that game breaking ability which many have been wanting for so long and finally thought we were seeing.

Maybe Lancaster would be concerned that his game-breakers might have problems game-consolidating in Dublin?  Horses for courses and the flighty guys always looking for a counter or a strike run can often get caught out on the more mundane duties of defence.

PS oops...just saw Lostinwales' post.  Sorry for the repeat there.

Dont worry its always nice to have someone agree with you

I don't fancy seeing people test Goode's defense. I don't think it is that bad bit doesnt fill me with confidence

[GunsGerms]

Deon Von Blommestein has been drafted as TMO to complete the officiating team for Sunday’s game with referee Craig Joubert and assistants Jérôme Garcès and Mathieu Raynal.

Shaun Veldsman is in a stable condition following his stabbing on Saturday.

[king_carlos]

I am not underestimating Browns' abilities and do see him as being a big loss for England. I just don't see Goode being as bad as many seem to think he is.

I agree that maybe dropping Watson to 15 may have been a decent option but I still feel that Goode is the next best 15 in England.

I don't think many believe him as bad as the volume of posts would suggest NJ.

For myself I find it a bit of a disappointing selection because I'm finally starting to feel that we are looking at back three players with the raw attributes needed to be able to threaten an international defence - pace, power, quick feet, pace...

That's where Goode will feel like a step backwards to many fans. Whilst he definitely has his attributes, ones which could be vital in Dublin too, he is lacking in that game breaking ability which many have been wanting for so long and finally thought we were seeing.

Maybe Lancaster would be concerned that his game-breakers might have problems game-consolidating in Dublin?  Horses for courses and the flighty guys always looking for a counter or a strike run can often get caught out on the more mundane duties of defence.

PS oops...just saw Lostinwales' post.  Sorry for the repeat there.

Agreed I can see the reasoning behind Goode as said. However I'd trust Watson's basic skills at FB and more importantly his calm head even at the Aviva.

If we are talking about tactical kicking in general from open play, rather than aerial ping pong, then I know this wont be popular but I'd rather see Twelvetrees at 12 being utilised as a kicking option than Goode at 15. I accept he isn't flavour of the month be he's looked good off the bench in both games and has a monster boot IF we use it well.

A bit harsh on Burrell I accept but he'd be a very useful option from the bench if we need some added physicality.

9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.May
12.Twelvetrees
13.Joseph
14.Nowell
15.Watson

21.Care - Another one that won't be popular but we need him and Youngs in the squad pushing each other
22.Cipriani
23.Burrell

By no means a perfect squad with an inexperienced back 3 and Nowell/Cipriani covering 15 if Watson were injured. However I'd happily see how that did with a strong pack in front of them - especially if Lawes is returning.

[BamBam]

I would be very happy if Care came back on to the bench ahead of Wiggles personally.

I'd rather not change the centres if possible, but would go with Watson at FB, and Nowell/May on the wings.

This article seems to suggest its not all doom and gloom re Brown just yet though

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/feb/24/england-mike-brown-hopeful-concussion-ireland-rugby-union-six-nations

[SecretFly]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...quite quiet here.................. (Homer Simpson suspicions rising)

Too quiet.


Something's cooking.

Someone is gonna pay big time at the weekend for all this strategic secrecy.

[king_carlos]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...quite quiet here.................. (Homer Simpson suspicions rising)

Too quiet.


Something's cooking.

Someone is gonna pay big time at the weekend for all this strategic secrecy.

Rumour has it that Lancaster is using reverse psychology to convince England's forwards that they can take the ball at more than a jog on the spot...

Better hope that POM is in terminator mode

[majesticimperialman]

What kind of game are we going see on sSAunday?  Are we going to see a high scoring game, with tries coming from every where? or are we going to see a kick and chase game..... A forward led game/a boring game or what?

I hope it is a high tempo game, with both teams willing to run the ball back from a kick and chase. I also hope that there is not many penalties given away by either team.

Most important though i hope ENGLAND WIN AND WIN WELL. ( THE WORD IS HOPE.)

Come on England.

[GunsGerms]

What kind of game are we going see on sSAunday?  Are we going to see a high scoring game, with tries coming from every where? or are we going to see a kick and chase game..... A forward led game/a boring game or what?

I hope it is a high tempo game, with both teams willing to run the ball back from a kick and chase. I also hope that there is not many penalties given away by either team.

Most important though i hope ENGLAND WIN AND WIN WELL. ( THE WORD IS HOPE.)

Come on England.

You have to go back to '03 for the last time England won well in Dublin in the 6 nations. In fact since '03 England have only won once in Dublin and that was by 6 points.

Schmidt's Ireland are quite organised so if you win I dont think it will be by too much.

[SecretFly]

I genuinely think Lancaster is going to approach this by catching Ireland in cobwebs mode - which is usually in the first half of the first half

I think he'll intend to take the game to us from the off at the highest tempo his side have used to date. They'll want to disrupt Ireland's settling regime of a slowish start and reserve punch for a second half.

And I think we might really struggle to contain that onslaught ..IF it keeps accurate - and let's face it, the English lads are proving quite accurate at speed.

If they get away from us in the first half, I don't think we'll have the combined form or lungs to chase after them in a second.  And if heads go down, it might very well be a bloodbath in that second as Lancaster's guys will want to keep the tempo up as practice for the WC.

But.................. the only chink of light I see for Ireland in that scenario is................... Schmidt will be thinking what Lancaster thinks he's thinking and trying to out think what Lancaster thinks Schmidt might be expecting!

In short!!!! - I think Schmidt will know what's coming - better than I can guess it anyway.  Real test for an Ireland side not close to top form so far but still chugging away.  If Ireland wins, it's going to be close - an old by-the-knuckles number.  But when I settle down and look at it in hindsight, if it's a win for us and a close, hard fought for one - that will be ideal preparation for getting the Irish guys back into more ruthless form than of recent times.

[beshocked]

Secretfly easier said than done. No side has started slower than England in the 6 nations so far.

The only plus point for England is they have had the practice of fighting back from being down early in the match.

Ireland will be a frustating opponent for England because they have players perfectly suited to take away England's momentum - noticeably at lineout time and with the choke tackle.

One area that England will look to get the upperhand is the scrum.

[SecretFly]

Secretfly easier said than done. No side has started slower than England in the 6 nations so far.

but that's where smart and increasingly coy coaches try to get the breaks. Subterfuge - thinking not one but two or three games ahead. Plotting out the greatest risks and trying to give as little as possible to that considered riskiest side.
Schmidt has always kinda played a few games down the line kinda smokescreen. Lancaster too could be putting supposed weaknesses before Schmidt (frustrating slow starts) and hoping Schmidt falls for them.
That's what I mean by the idea of coaches trying to think what the opposite guy thinks he thinks. Double bluffs and sidewinders.

[Notch]

I think Cian Healy may well start this week. That would be good, as Healy has done well against Cole before.

[beshocked]

secretfly you can get so caught up in mind games but it's simple really - each team just needs to look to nail the basics.

Both sides should look to perform as well as they can - a good start is important to that.

I hope Lancaster isn't thinking of Schmidt - he needs to look at what his team can do better.

[BamBam]

I think Cian Healy may well start this week. That would be good, as Healy has done well against Cole before.

Yep, he's really stamped his authority on the game when he's played against Dan Cole

[SecretFly]

secretfly you can get so caught up in mind games but it's simple really - each team just needs to look to nail the basics.

Both sides should look to perform as well as they can - a good start is important to that.

I hope Lancaster isn't thinking of Schmidt - he needs to look at what his team can do better.

Mind games happen. They're not a myth. They happen.

[SecretFly]

I think Cian Healy may well start this week. That would be good, as Healy has done well against Cole before.

Yep, he's really stamped his authority on the game when he's played against Dan Cole

It's funny how the funny bits are always hilarious when they're thrown rather than received.

God, Cian - you'll never live it down will you? And them all White knighted Saints on that English team, and all.

[kunu]

Think Irish attitudes need to change. We're all too sensible for our own good. The English on here are all looking for an England win, some hoping for a big one - good on them. I've always felt thats a strength of England's - they demand victories. That sort of mindset makes its way into the team, the English believe they'll win and nothing else is acceptable. The typical Irish joe (Frankie Sheehan), is happy with merely a good performance. I know the Irish players will never admit it, but I firmly believe they know, in the back of their minds, the public won't mind a loss too much, as long as its a valiant one.

Us Irish fans need to demand a win, we're at home, have a far more settled team and have already beaten South Africa, a more formidable opponent, at home this season. For God's sake Alan Quinlan's already jumped ship and backed England. We need to throw all sense out the window and believe we'll win.

[majesticimperialman]

kunu
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Us Irish fans need to demand a win, we're at home, have a far more settled team and have already beaten South Africa, a more formidable opponent, at home this season. For God's sake Alan Quinlan's already jumped ship and backed England. We need to throw all sense out the window and believe we'll win.

kunu

In 2012 England beat New Zealand by the biggest margin that any England team as won by......What i am saying is just because we beat NZ did not make us the Worlds number 1 team.

Just because you (Ireland beat South Africa) does not mean you will/can beat England... Although Ireland being at home should make you favourites.

[Sin é]

Kunu, I'd say Quinny is just doing a niggle thing about whether they are up to winning!

I think Ireland have every chance of winning. It was only 3pts last year in Twickers. Major difference for Ireland from last year is that Sean O'Brien is back and Peter O'Mahony is not carrying an injury (he was last year). Ireland are losing Heaslip though.

I think we can do it at home.

[Gwlad]

Just want Ireland to win…I think Sexton is maybe the best in the world right now. However if i were Colin Farrell i would be pretty miserable, Ford is the future and looks very comfortable at 10. If England win this game they will have had to earn it and then in my view they thoroughly deserve the 6 Nations but with France to come they will have to be consistent and not repeat what has become an unfortunate pattern of starting very well and getting worse. Scotland will be a good game too.

[majesticimperialman]

Gwlad

Who is Colin Farrell?

[No 7&1/2]

Irish actor. Think he means young Owen!

[SecretFly]

kunu, the English have been demanding big wins since the 2003 days when that England team was jogging to 40 point wins.

But the English have been 'demanding' since - and they've had a host of coaches that have been kicked to the sidelines who haven't measured up to the demands.

So - demands don't mean a whole helluvah lot in real terms.  They certainly don't influence results.

I hate generalising because there are enough coy and careful and hesitant English guys here who don't fit the picture you paint of a demanding people looking for big margin wins.  But if we go with generalities, we do tend to have a quieter belief in ourselves than the English - simply because we're smaller, have fewer realistic ambitions and winning always comes hard.  We're no All Blacks.

Am I cautious?  You better believe it.  Will I be satisfied with a valiant loss?  No way.  I demand wins too - but we keep the demands internal.   Arrogance isn't a nice title to hold - the English have been successfully trying to offload it for a few seasons now because it can be self destructive.  Humble folks can win too.

[stub]

I think most English are expecting to lose but do believe that England can and may win if things click for them. So there is a quiet confidence there as we (England) can beat anyone on our day - they only thing is we can lose to just about anyone too!! Ireland will be a mighty challenge, that much is sure.

I'm going to predict a narrow England win in this match in sportform's 6Ns competition - I won't be surprised if I end up with no points from that prediction though...

[majesticimperialman]

stub

I am expecting a very close fought game to be honest. but i am also hoping for an England win.

[BamBam]

I think Cian Healy may well start this week. That would be good, as Healy has done well against Cole before.

Yep, he's really stamped his authority on the game when he's played against Dan Cole

It's funny how the funny bits are always hilarious when they're thrown rather than received.  

God, Cian - you'll never live it down will you?   And them all White knighted Saints on that English team, and all.

Ah come on Fly, I reckon that's one that you would have been proud of if the shoe was on the other foot 

I promise I will take all funny bits thrown at me in the best possible way from now onwards 

[stub]

I with you there maj!

[Gwlad]

Gwlad

Who is Colin Farrell?

How is 16 divisible by 3?

[SecretFly]

Ah come on Fly, I reckon that's one that you would have been proud of if the shoe was on the other foot 

I promise I will take all funny bits thrown at me in the best possible way from now onwards 

Bam, I was actually going to try and get a sly jab in about Hartley but I left you with it

This game coming is too serious for me to be funning about.  Nerves won't allow it.  My funny bone is in lock-down mode now until after the game.

"Oh you're telling us you own one, Fly????"  Yeah, lay off the smart stuff!

[Pot Hale]

So will Schmidt keep with the same team or does he decide to spring some surprises on us all?

Front row? He might start Moore at TH, Best is likely to start and he could go with Healy to start and McGrath to back him up.

Second rows - Toner and O'Connell are a given to start particularly with Henderson having a shoulder niggle.

Backrow? With Heaslip out, then the running assumption is that Murphy takes his place, or does Schmidt decide to move players around position - Henderson at 6, O'Mahony at 7 and O'Brien at 8?

Murray and Sexton nailed on - with possibly Reddan on the bench along with Madigan.

Centres - would be interesting if Luke Fitzgerald was brought into the mix outside Henshaw, with Payne on the bench instead of Jones.

Back three probably the same.

Oh and no kicking for the first half.

[TrailApe]

the English have been demanding big wins since the 2003 days when that England team was jogging to 40 point wins

Aye - but watch that game again - it was nip and tuck for a good part of the match and it was just at the end that the knife got stuck in and was given a good twist.

[BamBam]

Ah come on Fly, I reckon that's one that you would have been proud of if the shoe was on the other foot 

I promise I will take all funny bits thrown at me in the best possible way from now onwards 

Bam, I was actually going to try and get a sly jab in about Hartley but I left you with it

This game coming is too serious for me to be funning about.  Nerves won't allow it.  My funny bone is in lock-down mode now until after the game.

"Oh you're telling us you own one, Fly????"  Yeah, lay off the smart stuff!

Fair enough, I reckon I'll be there once the teams are named too! 

In more serious news, Jonny May is out of the squad so Nowell will be starting on the wing. Goode and Pennell retained to cover Brown. No Lawes either 

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/nowell-included-squad-for-ireland/

[LondonTiger]

I was actually going to try and get a sly jab in about Hartley but I left you with it

This game coming is too serious for me to be funning about.  Nerves won't allow it.  My funny bone is in lock-down mode now until after the game.

"Oh you're telling us you own one, Fly????"  Yeah, lay off the smart stuff!

You share the same problem as Dylan Hartley. People verbally doubt he has a funny bone - hence why he is keen to give them a close up.

[LondonTiger]

I think Cian Healy may well start this week. That would be good, as Healy has done well against Cole before.

Really? In 5 international meetings between the pair I reckon the Irish scrum had the upperhand only in the 2011 thrashing.

Cian Healy is a cracking player - and a benefit to any team if fit. Is he actually fit enough for a crunch international after what 37 minutes against Zebre since being out for 5 months. Hell of a risk.

As an aside england on a 4 match winning streak against Ireland. Counts for naught of course.

[HammerofThunor]

I still expect England to lose to Ireland every time. I started watching after 2003 and the last few games haven't sunk in yet.

[HammerofThunor]

Haven't seen it mentioned, might be old, but May has been dropped and Nowell, Goode and Pennell retained. You'd think it's got to be Watson and Nowell on the wings? With Goode starting at 15.

[Rugby Fan]

Haven't seen it mentioned, might be old, but May has been dropped and Nowell, Goode and Pennell retained. You'd think it's got to be Watson and Nowell on the wings? With Goode starting at 15.

Brown isn't out of contention yet. It's possible he might be available but Lancaster decides to be ultra-cautious and stand him down. However, the fact he's still being mentioned suggests the coaches might be prepared to pick him if he gets the all-clear.

[doctor_grey]

Its very calm on here seeing as this is the game of the 6 nations.

I voted for an Ireland win, just think will get pinged a lot at the breakdown, throw in Sextons boot and they will walk away with a tight win 6-9 pts.

Steve (Look at me) Walsh is not the referee.  England do have a chance.
Still not up and ready for the match yet. Usually in the week before I get my blood up. Maybe being away is finally catching up with me.

[Breadvan]

I like the current attitude of this current England set up. Minimal fuss and press bites and just basically going about their business, preparing for the next game. Any childish mind games (see build up to the first game) met with a textbook forward defensive stroke.
I always fear a 2011 style drubbing when we go to Dublin but 2 wins their last 2 visits will give the players belief and confidence in their own game. Pressures on but I think, and hope, England can win.

[HammerofThunor]

Haven't seen it mentioned, might be old, but May has been dropped and Nowell, Goode and Pennell retained. You'd think it's got to be Watson and Nowell on the wings? With Goode starting at 15.

Brown isn't out of contention yet. It's possible he might be available but Lancaster decides to be ultra-cautious and stand him down. However, the fact he's still being mentioned suggests the coaches might be prepared to pick him if he gets the all-clear.

True, but do you think it'll be Watson and Nowell on the wings? Or Brown on the wing and Goode at full back?

As for the game,
I expect us to be competetive. To have a 'chance' of a win towards the end of the game (and that's not "we were winning with 60 mins to go but lost by 20")

[LondonTiger]

True, but do you think it'll be Watson and Nowell on the wings? Or Brown on the wing and Goode at full back?

Well we know now that we will have 3 full backs.

Best option: 11 Nowell, 14 Watson, 15 Brown
Worst Option: 11 Brown, 14 Pennell, 15 Goode
Most likely Option: 11 Nowell, 14 Watson, 15 Goode


Bomber Wildcard Option: Scared of the huge, testosterone driven Orcs in green thumping our ickle lads, yet still wanting a second kicking option, Lancaster decides to go for the unorthodox: 11 Croft, 12 36, 13 Burrell, 14 Joseph, 15 BillyV

[sad_gimp]

So glad May has been dropped....that he has been feted for so long on the back of one rare instance of poor NZ tackling has been really annoying! Much happier with Nowell.

Now if we can please not end up with Goode starting, I think we'll be in with a good chance.

[GunsGerms]

Watched against the head last night. Bernard Jackman reckons given the way England set up their backline defense at the lineout Ireland will go for a few balls over the lineout.

He also predicts Ireland will score from a power play off a shortened lineout.

Finally he highlighted how well England defend and also defend using the choke tackle. Therefore, he expects plenty of kicks from Sexton.

[LondonTiger]

So glad May has been dropped....that he has been feted for so long on the back of one rare instance of poor NZ tackling

Poor defence may be, but not poor tackling as they failed to lay a hand on him.

[LondonTiger]

Therefore, he expects plenty of kicks from Sexton.

When I said that you got angry with me.

[yappysnap]

Watched against the head last night. Bernard Jackman reckons given the way England set up their backline defense at the lineout Ireland will go for a few balls over the lineout.

He also predicts Ireland will score from a power play off a shortened lineout.

Finally he highlighted how well England defend and also defend using the choke tackle. Therefore, he expects plenty of kicks from Sexton.

Don't get too excited about Nowell, he was pretty poor against a rubbish Quins side on the weekend, missed some tackles and gave away penalties.

[GunsGerms]

Therefore, he expects plenty of kicks from Sexton.

When I said that you got angry with me.

I doubt I got angry?

Post exactly what you said and we can go over it again if you like.

[the-goon]

Is Pennell really England's next best outside back? Is there no one in the Aviva better than him. Apologies for my ignorance (I don't have BT so can't see the Aviva and Championship is seldom on sky), but surely there are options that are playing higher quality rugby. The step up from Championship to Test is Huuuge.

[yappysnap]

Daly at at Wasps?

He'd give us a better kicking option too and covers 13-15

[No 7&1/2]

Pennell was identified when in the Premeirship though and has been in and around the England setup so they've seen his quality close up. His quality won't go down jsut because his team were relegated.

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