Guardian's Kevin Mitchell Sticks It To Floyd

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http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/feb/23/floyd-mayweather-greatest-sugar-ray-robinson-leonard

We will be reminded regularly between now and 2 May that Floyd Mayweather is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world, the most gifted practitioner of the fighting arts since Sugar Ray Leonard.

There are good arguments for such a judgment. Mayweather is unbeaten in 47 fights, has won world titles from super-feather to light-middle and has earned more than any other boxer in the long history of the sport. If numbers do not tell the whole story, seeing, surely, is believing: even a cursory inspection of his performances confirms he has a unique and special talent.

Mayweather would agree, of course; for a little while now, he has called himself TBE: The Best Ever.

That, however, is a call way too far. Mayweather might be the best of his generation (an argument we can come back to). But, even if he beats Manny Pacquiao to unify the welterweight title this summer, he will fall considerably short of Sugar Ray Robinson as the finest all-round fighter of them all.

In his first 47 fights alone Robinson beat Sammy Angott (twice), Marty Servo (twice), Fritzie Zivic (twice) and Jake LaMotta (twice), as well as losing to the Raging Bull in the first three of their six memorable encounters. And he had hardly warmed up, going on to win 173 of his 200 bouts over 25 years. From lightweight to middleweight, mostly at world level, Ray knocked out 61 more opponents than Floyd has yet fought. In his final year, 1965, he fought 14 times – Mayweather’s total over the past nine years. There is simply no comparison.

Mayweather is not as good as Leonard, either – not in every department.

Leonard was as comfortable taking the initiative as in bamboozling opponents on the back foot. He hit harder and more often than Mayweather, who is a counter-puncher supreme, finishing rather than starting the argument.

Nor would he necessarily beat Leonard’s rivals, Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns or Marvin Hagler – although it is unfair to imagine he would be big enough for the latter two.

Duran – a natural lightweight until he vacated the title in 1979, about the time his waistband began to expand as his dedication dwindled – was the nearest to a peak Mayweather in size – and what a fight theirs would be.

Whose pedigree better survives closer scrutiny? There is not much in it.

Those first 74 fights of Duran’s long career included a single defeat – over 10 rounds to Esteban DeJesus in their first bout – and wins over Ken Buchanan, DeJesus (twice), Carlos Palomino and Leonard. While the “No Mas” rematch against Sugar Ray proved a turning point, Duran fought on with varying degrees of distinction and ambition at the highest level. The final 26 of his 119 contests were, in the main, for money more than glory but he was rarely taken for granted, even as an old, fat, shuffling middleweight.

For all Mayweather’s brilliance, for all his mastery of his contemporaries, he has not done what any of the Four Kings did: test himself on a regular basis against opponents of similar genius. Theirs was an extraordinary era, one which they shared as near equals, crowned not by themselves but by their peers and deeds.

Mayweather can fight only those opponents available to him – but Pacquaio has been available since 2009. Oscar De La Hoya was on the slide when they met, even though the Golden Boy might have won had he not gassed in the closing rounds. So was Shane Mosley. Arturo Gatti was brave but tailor-made for dismantling, as was Ricky Hatton. Miguel Cotto was tough – and that was about it; ditto Saúl Álvarez and Marcos Maidana. Imagine what Leonard or Duran would have done to any of those fighters.

Nice guys finish last again

Some fighters are just such nice guys that you want them to win, no matter the odds or opponent. Paul Smith and Martin Murray are two such fighters, which made their world title defeats on Saturday night the harder to take.

Yet neither was diminished in failure.

Smith gave all he had in his rematch with the German rock Arthur Abraham in Berlin, falling short for the second time. Murray, in his third world title fight, similarly found the strength and class of Gennady Golovkin too much for even his out-sized heart, and was stopped in the 11th round in Monte Carlo.

And the unstoppable rise of Golovkin brings us back to Mayweather. The unbeaten Kazakh, after 19 knockouts on the spin, will probably be steered towards Cotto in the coming months, although he has said he is happy to drop down to 154lb to meet Mayweather.

Mayweather, who loves to bet on everything from basketball to NFL with his “big tycoon buddies”, will regard that as a gamble too far.

Paulie Malignaggi, a good judge, agrees with him. He says Golovkin would be too big for Mayweather, that there is nothing in it for the American, nothing to prove.

Perhaps. But tell it to Duran, Sugar Ray or any of the other amazing fighters who went out of their comfort zone time and again to test themselves against the very best opponents available.

Greatness is not assumed. It is conferred.

Mayweather's reasoning for not making the Cotto fight was that Cotto wasn't PPV worthy. If that was his overriding concern, then it seems even odder that he jilted Oscar - who'd warmed up for the rematch against the Mayweather-lite Steve Forbes.

Perhaps the split decision - in a fight he seemed to win clearly - spooked him?

Real shame he didn't take on the top men at 147 in '08 and '09. I think Margarito - red hot at that point - could have given him a real fight. Cotto and Mosley were both better versions of the men he eventually faced and both Williams and Vernon Forrest (then up at 154 - where he'd fought Oscar) would have proven stylistic conundrums for him.

After Hatton, though, his matchmaking became more calculating than ever. Only eight outings since 2007 against opponents who could drive PPV sales within the gargantuan hispanic/latino market.

Easily the smartest, most business savvy career path in boxing history. Should he defeat Pacquiao, he'll walk away super rich, healthy and lauded as one of boxing's best ever fighters.

Don't tend to buy the whole Margarito thing. Yes, after beating Cotto he had a legit claim but then against Mosley was found to be nothing more than a disgraceful cheater.

Roach summed his style up pretty well by saying "his punches take a week or two to land, you can see them from a mile coming". At the time Marg/FMJ could've fought I can't see anyway in which Floyd loses. Simply to quick on his feet and would prance his way to a very boring UD.

Cotto - Interesting fight prior to his fight with Marg. As Chris has said, it's the only one out of the three I begrudge him on. PWill was busy making a mess in Quintana I and couldn't figure out if he was a WW or LMW. And to be honest PWill was the Vernon Forrest of his day in that no one wanted a piece of the guy.

Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

Surprised at how dismissive you are of Margarito and Williams' chances - both would have been extremely challenging fights for Mayweather. Between 2006-7, Margarito was on one hell of a streak.

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

Surprised at how dismissive you are of Margarito and Williams' chances - both would have been extremely challenging fights for Mayweather. Between 2006-7, Margarito was on one hell of a streak.

One hell of a streak?! His best win is that elite, P4P legend called Joshua Clottey.

Lost to PWill convincingly, suspected cheat against Cotto and then battered sideways by Mosley.

Would hardly call that a "streak".

PWill if he'd not have lost to Quintana may have had better claims to fight him. Both weren't exactly mega-PPV stars either.

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

Surprised at how dismissive you are of Margarito and Williams' chances - both would have been extremely challenging fights for Mayweather. Between 2006-7, Margarito was on one hell of a streak.

Can you say for sure that Marg's "streak" wasn't sponsored by plaster of Paris? Like many, I see Marg as a dirty stain on boxing and refuse to give him any credit for his achievements, let alone say he deserved a shot at Mayweather. The only certainty in Margarito's career is without his special wraps he lost to Mosley, Pac and Cotto.

[/quote]

Can you say for sure that Marg's "streak" wasn't sponsored by plaster of Paris?  Like many, I see Marg as a dirty stain on boxing and refuse to give him any credit for his achievements, let alone say he deserved a shot at Mayweather.  The only certainty in Margarito's career is without his special wraps he lost to Mosley, Pac and Cotto.[/quote]

This every single day of the week.

Coxy001 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

Surprised at how dismissive you are of Margarito and Williams' chances - both would have been extremely challenging fights for Mayweather. Between 2006-7, Margarito was on one hell of a streak.

One hell of a streak?! His best win is that elite, P4P legend called Joshua Clottey.

Lost to PWill convincingly, suspected cheat against Cotto and then battered sideways by Mosley.

Would hardly call that a "streak".

PWill if he'd not have lost to Quintana may have had better claims to fight him. Both weren't exactly mega-PPV stars either.

From Clottey through to Cotto, Margarito was formidable. The Williams fight was extremely close (could quite easily have been given a draw) and Margarito was the man coming on down the stretch. Both fighters were marvellous.

Clottey won five straight after Margarito - thumping Judah and pushing Cotto to the wire (another great fight that). His reluctance to engage with Pacquiao - then at his most monstrous - seems to have reduced him to a laughing stock (unfairly in my view). Margarito chased Cintron out of the ring and walloped Johnson.

Was he cheating during that run - and it was a quality bit of form - who knows?

DuransHorse wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

Surprised at how dismissive you are of Margarito and Williams' chances - both would have been extremely challenging fights for Mayweather. Between 2006-7, Margarito was on one hell of a streak.

Can you say for sure that Marg's "streak" wasn't sponsored by plaster of Paris?  Like many, I see Marg as a dirty stain on boxing and refuse to give him any credit for his achievements, let alone say he deserved a shot at Mayweather.  The only certainty in Margarito's career is without his special wraps he lost to Mosley, Pac and Cotto.

Nope. no-one can.

I haven't said he deserved a shot - just that he'd have been a real challenge to overcome between '06 and '07.

hazharrison wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

Surprised at how dismissive you are of Margarito and Williams' chances - both would have been extremely challenging fights for Mayweather. Between 2006-7, Margarito was on one hell of a streak.

Can you say for sure that Marg's "streak" wasn't sponsored by plaster of Paris?  Like many, I see Marg as a dirty stain on boxing and refuse to give him any credit for his achievements, let alone say he deserved a shot at Mayweather.  The only certainty in Margarito's career is without his special wraps he lost to Mosley, Pac and Cotto.

Nope. no-one can.

I haven't said he deserved a shot - just that he'd have been a real challenge to overcome between '06 and '07.

If we didn't know what we do now then it's a valid point... but we do.

DuransHorse wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

Surprised at how dismissive you are of Margarito and Williams' chances - both would have been extremely challenging fights for Mayweather. Between 2006-7, Margarito was on one hell of a streak.

Can you say for sure that Marg's "streak" wasn't sponsored by plaster of Paris?  Like many, I see Marg as a dirty stain on boxing and refuse to give him any credit for his achievements, let alone say he deserved a shot at Mayweather.  The only certainty in Margarito's career is without his special wraps he lost to Mosley, Pac and Cotto.

Nope. no-one can.

I haven't said he deserved a shot - just that he'd have been a real challenge to overcome between '06 and '07.

If we didn't know what we do now then it's a valid point... but we do.

Shane Mosley was a cheat - do you feel the same about him? Morales? Jones Jr.? Toney? Vargas?

hazharrison wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah, I don't believe that Floyd had much to fear with regards to Margarito or Williams, cap and cox, and I don't think he really took evasive action from them, either. Just dabling in a devil's advocate kind of argument which Mayweather's really stern critics tend to present. Cotto is a different kettle of fish and it was disappointing that Mayweather temporarily vanished when that kind of opportunity was in the offing - but even then, that would have become irrelevant and been totally forgiven / forgotten had he subsequenty taken on Pacquiao, an even greater and far more anticipated challenge, in 2010.

Outside of that, I've seen the idea that Mayweather swerved Tszyu back in 2004 / 2005 when he made his pit stop at Light-Welter bandied about now and then, believe it or not (I'm sure some others have probably heard those rumblings as well). I guess that's based on him targetting a mere 'titlist' in Gatti, a sure-fire and more or less guaranteed belt, rather than Tszyu who'd been the divisional kingpin since 2001 (by the time Floyd climbed through the ropes to dismantle Gatti, Tszyu had been dethroned by Hatton a few weeks beforehand, but I'm talking about when the Gatti fight was signed). Needless to say that Tszyu was a different class of fighter to Arturo and it seems incredible to think that a fighter already as successful and highly-regarded as Mayweather was by 2004 / 2005 was actually having to fight WBC eliminators at the time.

Gatti was Mayweather's maiden PPV headliner and maybe the only time in his whole career where he took the short end of the purse - the whole event was based on getting the most money and exposure for as little risk as possible. I don't particularly think that means he was worried bout Tszyu, though, particularly with Kostya's long, long lay-off between early 2003 and late 2004. He probably signed for his first WBC eliminator (he fought two of them, I believe) while Tszyu was still out of commission, thus meaning there wasn't really any other obvious, proven name to go for at 140 (Cotto was only just edging towards the semi big time, and Hatton was yet to have a world title fight) and nobody can know for sure whether or not it was in his intentions to deal with Tszyu after whooping Gatti - turns out, Hatton did it in the meantime anyway.

There's a train of thought that Tszyu would have been a nightmare for Floyd due to that odd little vagary of his, namely that, despite sometimes looking a bit mechanical and workmanlike next to them, Tszyu always seemed to excel and do better against quick, slick and mobile boxers / technicians such as Gonzalez (one hell of a beat down when you consider that his only previous loss had been an admirable effort against a peak De la Hoya), Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah and then strangely struggle when someone stood with him in the pocket and had a ruck (Phillips, Hatton). But good, talented boxers though they were, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell and Judah just ain't Floyd, and I find the idea of Tszyu beating him pretty fanciful, particularly at that time when injuries and father time were starting to diminish Kostya's abilities.

Another one that's probably been embellished over time to enhance the 'all about the money, no risk' perception of Mayweather.

Surprised at how dismissive you are of Margarito and Williams' chances - both would have been extremely challenging fights for Mayweather. Between 2006-7, Margarito was on one hell of a streak.

Can you say for sure that Marg's "streak" wasn't sponsored by plaster of Paris?  Like many, I see Marg as a dirty stain on boxing and refuse to give him any credit for his achievements, let alone say he deserved a shot at Mayweather.  The only certainty in Margarito's career is without his special wraps he lost to Mosley, Pac and Cotto.

Nope. no-one can.

I haven't said he deserved a shot - just that he'd have been a real challenge to overcome between '06 and '07.

If we didn't know what we do now then it's a valid point... but we do.

Shane Mosley was a cheat - do you feel the same about him? Morales? Jones Jr.? Toney? Vargas?

There are varying degrees of cheating Haz. Does it taint their records? Yes. Does it mean they lose some of my respct? Yes ( I'm sure they will lose sleep over that ). Does it mean I rate them as lowly as a guy that enters the ring with concealed weapons under his gloves? No.

There's a massive difference between what Mosley (and more than likely a lot of boxers have done (not to mention other sportsmen/women) and what Marg did.

Probably not. In boxing however, there's a big difference between people who cheat by taking drugs that will ultimately wreck their own health and those who do so by attempting to butcher an opponent by means almost analagous to hiding a weapon inside their gloves. Not very sporting, that, and should have seen the fellow tossed out of the sport for life. Rehabilitating the drugs users after a suspension seems fair enough to me - in other sports, people such as David Millar and Dwain Chambers seem to have become articulate opponents of steroids after paying due penalty for their crimes.

Some transgressions don't merit a second chance, in my book. The line may be blurred at times, but it is screamingly obvious that Margarito stepped over it.

Kind of feel sorry for Mosley being called a cheat....

It's kind of like Ben Johnson in Athletics..........Hung out to dry in a sport full of dodgy practices...

Not sure Johnson would reach the final these days..........

Still It shows what eating your greens can do for you !!

Agree that marg overstepped that line. I think peds in general in combat sport is overstepping the line... Gaining an advantage to cause bodily harm to someone is different to doing it to win a cycling event.

However rife it may be

I see Pascal has been playing the "take the test" card with Kovalev. Sounds as though Kovalev flipped it around and requested VADA testing at which point Pascal balked.

And who's conditioning Pascal? Memo Heredia. With no testing.

hazharrison wrote:I see Pascal has been playing the "take the test" card with Kovalev. Sounds as though Kovalev flipped it around and requested VADA testing at which point Pascal balked.

And who's conditioning Pascal? Memo Heredia. With no testing.

Kovalev requested VADA but Pascal refused and said he wanted the testing he's had the last few years and that he'd pay for all of it. Now there's no special drug testing at all for the fight.

I'd make anybody from Eastern Europe take a test.........

Nowhere more corrupt than that part of the World..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'd make anybody from Eastern Europe take a test.........

Nowhere more corrupt than that part of the World..

Second only to the USA for PED use. And this is just stating the obvious.

Cotto, Williams and Margarito would have been 3 tough fights for Mayweather. Much tougher fights than the likes of Hatton, Maidana, Ortiz, Baldomir etc

From Mosley on Margarito took a few thouough beat downs with Cotto achieving the ultimate catharsis.

Despite Margo's protestations the lab results showed the hard piece placed in the wraps had the constitutes of plaster.

Margarito is just a little more than Baldomir really. Cotto and Williams I'd agree with you. Also take out the plaster from his gloves and whether he'd have anything to trouble Mayweather apart from his stamina is in question.

Margarito was better than Baldomir although I would fancy Mayweather to beat him. Mayweather got out of the division when there were tough there that didnt satisfy his business model. The toughest welterweights of Mayweathers era were Pacquiao, Cotto, Williams, Margarito, Mosley, Bradley, Judah, Marquez. Not the likes of Guerrero, Ortiz, Maidana and Hatton. Half of them Mayweather didnt fight and the other half he only fought when they were way off their best with the exception of Judah maybe.

Judah never won a big fight, though.

Margarito was a beast - he was way better than Baldy.

A beast with plaster on his gloves. Every win he has is tainted with it and personally his whole record should be stripped and binned. (Check out the Doc Assault in the ring about when Luis Resto did the same thing.)

Margarito was a cheating scumbag! He had a chin and stamina and that is it. I re watched the fight he beat Cotto in recently. His punches looked sloppy and slow as hell and look at the damage he did. He was a cheat end of.

AdamT wrote:
Margarito was a cheating scumbag! He had a chin and stamina and that is it. I re watched the fight he beat Cotto in recently. His punches looked sloppy and slow as hell and look at the damage he did. He was a cheat end of.

Great summation......Little talent, A chin and dodgy gloves......Think we all enjoyed Cotto 2.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

AdamT wrote:
Margarito was a cheating scumbag! He had a chin and stamina and that is it. I re watched the fight he beat Cotto in recently. His punches looked sloppy and slow as hell and look at the damage he did. He was a cheat end of.

Great summation......Little talent, A chin and dodgy gloves......Think we all enjoyed Cotto 2.

The sad thing was, I became a huge fan of Margarito after he smashed Cotto.

I thought it was fascinating having this fighter with little talent coming forward and busting guys up. I was absolutely devastated that he was a cheat. He was possibly my favourite fighter at a time.

I believe Boxing is rife with drugs so technically there are a load of cheats in my opinion but carrying weapons into a ring is sick and cowardly! Obviously knew he wasn't good enough to hang with Cotto and Mosley and the like

AdamT wrote:
Margarito was a cheating scumbag! He had a chin and stamina and that is it. I re watched the fight he beat Cotto in recently. His punches looked sloppy and slow as hell and look at the damage he did. He was a cheat end of.

He was indeed. As was Mosley.

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:
Margarito was a cheating scumbag! He had a chin and stamina and that is it. I re watched the fight he beat Cotto in recently. His punches looked sloppy and slow as hell and look at the damage he did. He was a cheat end of.

He was indeed. As was Mosley.

True but would argue what antonio was much worse. To be honest I have my suspicon with most top boxers of the last 20 or 30 years using peds but have no proof so would not single out any names on here.

Some heavyweight fighters of the last couple of decades are very easy to pick out as it is very hard to weigh over 16 stone with ripped abs (unless you are well over 6 foot 4) and hold substantial muscle naturally while doing the amount of cardio these guys do to build fitness for a fight.

Unfortunately good old milk, steak and eggs just does not cut it!

AdamT wrote:
Margarito was a cheating scumbag! He had a chin and stamina and that is it. I re watched the fight he beat Cotto in recently. His punches looked sloppy and slow as hell and look at the damage he did. He was a cheat end of.

He caught Cotto in the seventh(?) with an uppercut to the nose and possibly broke it as Cotto had breathing trouble from that point onwards, Cotto was then doing his damnedest to escape Margarito who realized he was out of breath, slowing down and easier to hit.

Look at the damage Manny did to Cotto's face, look how swollen Cotto's face was after he fought Mayweather. Are you suggesting those two also had something in their gloves or maybe, just maybe, Cotto, like Hatton, is one of those fighters that marks up badly when hit.

If Margarito's gloves were the sole reason he beat Cotto, why did it take until round seven for his punches to have an effect?

Do you believe he only wore them against Mosely??

Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

I think you have to take this article with a pinch of salt when it bigs up wins over Jake LaMotta and dismisses Miguel Cotto as tough but thats about it.

Pedro147 wrote:I like watching skilled technicians....plotting their way round tables......love seeing quality safety and quality break building!!!

For me it's a pleasure to watch unless it's Ebdon of course......

While I have certain favorites...If they lose...well I'll enjoy the snooker left on offer!!!

I'm not sure how anyone can admire a petulant, spoilt guy that has constantly derided the game that has made him a multi-millionnaire but fairplay If you do!!!

The above is what Trussman wrote about Ronnie O'Sullivan on the snooker forum. So Floyd fighting for money and not taking on the biggest challenges he could have fought was not showing disrespect to boxing. But someone he doesn't like such as ROS is not afforded the same. I'm a Floyd fan but thought I'd post this to highlight how posters can argue a point so blindly that no rational debate can be had with them on a topic, just like Chris highlighted earlier in the thread.

Looks like Truss is back to his ironic self

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

It is one of the best fights I ever seen. I was on holiday in Italy when it happened.

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

You have to give Manny the benefit of the doubt.................Unfortunately once you're caught it's right to assume you're a cheat all along and your achievements should be evaluated along them lines !!

Not accusing Manny of cheating but for a guy that started at flyweight to end up with the same size wrists as Tyson is astounding.

He has forearms and calves like a super middleweight!

He has also grown taller since flyweight. Which drugs can cause that?

ShahenshahG wrote:He has also grown taller since flyweight. Which drugs can cause that?

HGH?

Plaster of paris at the bottom of his feet. Injected directly into the sole

AdamT wrote:Not accusing Manny of cheating but for a guy that started at flyweight to end up with the same size wrists as Tyson is astounding.

He has forearms and calves like a super middleweight!

I agree 21 is a fully grown man.....

AdamT wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:He has also grown taller since flyweight. Which drugs can cause that?

HGH?

HGH brings alot of problems and any athlete would be mad to touch it. He's not shown any symptoms of drug use that can't be explained by tough workouts. He was a kid then and is an adult now. There's never been any indication that he has used them apart from rumours that Mayweather family put out. All this rubbish about big head or carrying up his power is just people looking to fill an unfounded theory with facts to seem intelligent. He may well be using them, I don't know but there's nothing there that indicates he is using drugs.

ShahenshahG wrote:

AdamT wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:He has also grown taller since flyweight. Which drugs can cause that?

HGH?

HGH brings alot of problems and any athlete would be mad to touch it. He's not shown any symptoms of drug use that can't be explained by tough workouts. He was a kid then and is an adult now. There's never been any indication that he has used them apart from rumours that Mayweather family put out. All this rubbish about big head or carrying up his power is just people looking to fill an unfounded theory with facts to seem intelligent. He may well be using them, I don't know but there's nothing there that indicates he is using drugs.

Not accusing him of HGH but there are a lot of sports people using it! It only causes problems at serious doses, doubt many are using the amount pro bodybilders use!

Lionel Messi was fed HGH as a kid (part of the Barcelona youth set up). Little wonder he runs rings round people like The Flash.

When your own coach comes out with the following its little wonder you're deemed suspicious:

“One of the reasons I don’t work with him [Ariza] anymore is he’s a little shady,” Roach said to Radio Raheem. “He used to give Manny a drink before workouts, and I asked him what was in the drink and he would never tell me. I told him I need to know what was in the drinks because you’re giving it to my fighter.
And if something goes wrong, I’m going to get the blame. So in my opinion, he’s a little shady. So he’s in that champ [Brandon Rios] now and it doesn’t surprise me that [Rios testing positive for a banned substance] happened.”

hazharrison wrote:Lionel Messi was fed HGH as a kid (part of the Barcelona youth set up). Little wonder he runs rings round people like The Flash.

When your own coach comes out with the following its little wonder you're deemed suspicious:

“One of the reasons I don’t work with him [Ariza] anymore is he’s a little shady,” Roach said to Radio Raheem. “He used to give Manny a drink before workouts, and I asked him what was in the drink and he would never tell me. I told him I need to know what was in the drinks because you’re giving it to my fighter.
And if something goes wrong, I’m going to get the blame. So in my opinion, he’s a little shady. So he’s in that champ [Brandon Rios] now and it doesn’t surprise me that [Rios testing positive for a banned substance] happened.”

Yeah and he was fed HGH to help him grow because he was so short!

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?". Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top? That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.