Dear Vern

by 123456789 Sat 28 Feb 2015, 4:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Dear MR Cotter

You are still in my opinion the saviour of all things Scottish but even in your infinite wisdoms I beg you to listen to me. We can beat England and Ireland but it will only be possible if:

1. For the love of God pick the two "Killer Bs" with testicles
2. Make one of them captain
3. If you insist on playing a traditional Scottish way pick a traditional scottish scrum-half and by that I mean cusiter or Hidalgo-Clyne. Laidlaw is too slow.
4. Accept that Sean Lamont is too old for an international winger. Fife, Brown or even Visser would have been better
5. Only ever play a specialist 10 at 10 otherwise there is no cohesion.
6. Play Denton at 8, and tell him to get a short, back and sides.
7. Slap anyone who gave away a penalty today. Twice.
8. Don't let anything Johnson does or say influence you.
9. Beg Hines to come out of retirement for 3 games
10. Shout at them
11. A lot
12. Get up them and in their face. Manic aggression. We've been too passive

Vern if you somehow read this, pick this team:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Hines
5. Gray
6 Brown
7. Barclay
8. Denton
9. Cusiter
10. Russell
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar
13. Bennett
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. Dickinson
17. Cross
18. Brown
19. Hamilton
20. Harley
21. Hidalgo-Clyne
22. Scott
23. Brown

I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt we'll call it a blip and also acknowledge the fact we have no fly-half and Clancy was in place

by R!skysports Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:29 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Risky - do you think Sean Lamont is better?

At effort yes - skill level - the same at the moment

so Lamont for me - between the two

Same skill level?? Bizarre.

I like wingers who can score tries. Call me old fashioned.

At the moment on the International stage - he is not - so does not even have that going for him

If he put the effort in, I am happy to revise my stance, as he could be very good (and a lot better than Lamont) - but as a captain of a team - the one thing that would get people dropped is not trying -

by R!skysports Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:31 pm

Weegie Wizard wrote:The point I was trying to make about Visser is that 10-15 is not where our problem lies. If given quick ball, our backs (including Visser if he is playing) will score tries.

Our problem is that 1-8 either cannot win quick ball or take it a few phases too far and give away a penalty or Laidlaw delays at the base or passes to a ball carrier moving at glacial pace.

Whenever Visser has received any ball so far there has been 2 defenders on him as the forwards have not committed defenders or Laidlaw has checked to see if a box kick is on.

True - but people Like Seymour come in looking for the ball and before he got injured looked very dangerous and busy - with the same slow ball

by **RDW** Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:39 pm

Stat of the day - Martin Castrogiovani has scored the same number of International tries as Sean Lamont.

by Majestic83 Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:44 pm

Weegie Wizard wrote:The point I was trying to make about Visser is that 10-15 is not where our problem lies. If given quick ball, our backs (including Visser if he is playing) will score tries.

Our problem is that 1-8 either cannot win quick ball or take it a few phases too far and give away a penalty or Laidlaw delays at the base or passes to a ball carrier moving at glacial pace.

Whenever Visser has received any ball so far there has been 2 defenders on him as the forwards have not committed defenders or Laidlaw has checked to see if a box kick is on.

Agreed the backs aren't the major problem at the moment. It is definitely the forwards who aren't matching up to the opposition, getting the backs good clean quick ball. For years we have had great forwards and hee haw backs but now we have the backs the forwards seem to have dropped a level in performance. I wouldn't say we have bad players either in the pack but something seems a miss and I would put it down to the forwards coaches, Jonathan Humphries and Massimo Cuttitta.
The forwards tactics do not seem to be working but yet they have not brought a plan B during the games. We all knew the Italians would maul Scotland to death on Saturday yet it didn't look as if it had been a key area for Scotland to work on during the build up to the game. Also the scrums we are still getting heavily penalised each game and have done for a while now so what is Cuttitta brining to the table.
I think Vern Cotter is a very good coach but I don't think some of his assistants are up to the job.

by Scottish White Line Fever Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:44 pm

First time poster on here, although I keep an eye on 606v2 regularly! I’ve been at all the Murrayfield games this season and I’ve not yet had a chance to watch the Italy match in full, so I can only give my views on what I saw live.

Starting with the forwards, generally the scrum has been okay this 6N, but the thing that has stood out to me the most is the lack of a big ball carrier at number 8, in the mould of Vunipola, Heaslip or Parisse. Beattie has been utterly anonymous in our first three games and he has to go back to Castres to see if he can get his form back. For me, Denton should be at 8 for the England game as he looked fit and hungry at Cardiff on Sunday. Personally, Beattie looks like he’ll struggle to make our WC squad and I would have Ashe, Denton and Strauss ahead of him in the pecking order. I would echo the sentiments about Harley in that he has had a quiet few games, although I would give him the benefit of the doubt in not being fully match fit. Harley is an excellent 6 and definitely our WC 6, but hopefully he can improve his ball carrying as he doesn’t really break the gain line regularly. Generally, if I recall correctly, our scrum has been okay in the first three games, but we appeared to struggle at times with Clancy’s officiating of it at the weekend. I wouldn’t necessarily make any changes to the front row but adapting to the referee’s interpretation is something we surely have to work on – I guess you would call it being more ‘streetwise’. (I should add I have never played in the front row so I have absolutely no clue what goes on there most of the time).

In handling the Italian rolling maul, I have no clue why we didn’t stand off the maul and sack the ball carrier around the back. This is something which Glasgow have down to a fine art (and I say that as an Edinburgh fan first, and a Glasgow fan second), with Fusaro or Holmes (I think) normally popping round the back to sack it. It was bizarre not to see us do that, and we surely have to work on it in the week before the England match, because both they and Ireland will target this.

Moving to the backs, Hogg was okay in the sense that he wanted to get involved and was our main attacking threat, but some of his passing was shocking at times, either too low, too high or behind the man. Seymour had a quiet game, but I think that stemmed from the attacking system we had in place, in which we appeared to be trying to play a lot of inside balls and putting men on the outside of the carrier’s shoulder for a pop pass. Personally I think we may have been better served by running straight and getting the ball wide. Dunbar and Bennett have been our stars of the 6N so far and they had solid enough games at the weekend. With Scott in the background and hopefully pushing them when he regains his form, we have a trio of centres who could push on to be world class. We’ve certainly come a long way since the days of Dewey, Henderson, Di Rollo, Morrison and Andy Craig!! Horne had a reasonable enough game, up until that kick, which was unforgivable for a 10. In Scotland, we seem to be perfecting the skill of missing touch with penalties – Russell managed it against Wales, Horne against Italy and Te Rure did it against Cardiff at the weekend.

Lamont had a bit of nightmare really. I have no idea what he was thinking about with the restart after Bennett’s try, because from my view in the stands, the ball was clearly going over the line on the full. If in doubt, just leave it. The worst case scenario if he had left it would have been that it bounced into touch!

As for Laidlaw, at the Argentina match he was superb, attacking round the fringes and taking quick penalties. It seemed that he had turned a corner, but he has regressed since then. He carries next to no threat around the fringes and that is not acceptable for a 9 these days at international level. When you look at Murray and Webb, they carry a threat around the fringe, which draws the men in. Both Cusiter and Blair had this in their prime, and it was just a shame that we could barely get a decent back line together in those days. There is this chat about ‘leadership’ and ‘game management’, which is fine, but I don’t really see that from Laidlaw. His decision-making at the base of the ruck is slow and we’ve made some bizarre decisions at times, such as Hogg taking a place kick from nearly the half-way line in either the France or Wales match when he normally just blasts them wide from that range. And, as has been said, he does not seem to be able to communicate with referees in the same way as other captains can. I accept that we do have a chronic lack of leadership in this squad, but for me the captain has to be guaranteed their place in every game and that’s Jonny Gray for me. Furthermore, there is this argument about Laidlaw’s kicking accuracy and how we need him, but Russell is no mug when it comes to kicking, and neither is SHC. Plus, Laidlaw’s kicking stats are surely helped by the fact that he doesn’t really take them when they are long-distance (ie, past the 10m line) because he doesn’t have the distance, whilst Russell and SHC do.

For me, if we are looking for a threat round the fringes and a genuinely exciting attacking threat to go with our exciting backs, then we pick SHC. If we’re looking for structure, we go with Cusiter. And if we’re looking for a middle ground, personally I would go with Pyrgos, whom I think is very underrated!

I think there are three key elements to getting quick ball:
1. Get over the gain line;
2. Quickly clear out the tackler;
3. The tackled player should precisely place the ball out for the SH to pass.
Of course, that is all down to having support in the right place, and it then relies on the SH moving the ball quickly. Laidlaw can be too slow to even reach the base of the ruck, which I don’t think would be the case with one of our other scrummies.

That’s really the end of my long rant and kudos to anyone that actually bothered to read it all!

My XV for the England match:
1. Dickinson
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Hamilton (to provide some extra beef because that English scrum will tear us apart if we keep Swinson)
5. J. Gray (c)
6. Harley
7. Cowan
8. Denton

9. Cusiter/SHC (I would be tempted to go for SHC as we should probably give him some game time before the WC, but I fully expect Laidlaw will be retained)
10. Russell
11. Maitland (if fit, failing which I would give Dougie Fife another go)
12. Dunbar
13. Bennett
14. Seymour
15. Hogg

by Weegie Wizard Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:44 pm

Riskysports wrote:
True - but people Like Seymour come in looking for the ball and before he got injured looked very dangerous and busy - with the same slow ball

I agree with you and I don't think Visser is as good as Seymour (or Maitland).

What I mean is that we can spend as much time and energy complaining about Visser as we like but dropping him for Fife or Lamont or Jonah Lomu will make no difference to a game like Saturday's. We can worry about who our best wingers are when they get any amount of front foot ball.

Visser is our 3rd best winger. If our 3rd best of every position was as good as Visser, we wouldn't be having this discusssion.

by **George Carlin** Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:51 pm

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:First time poster on here, although I keep an eye on 606v2 regularly! I’ve been at all the Murrayfield games this season and I’ve not yet had a chance to watch the Italy match in full, so I can only give my views on what I saw live.

Starting with the forwards, generally the scrum has been okay this 6N, but the thing that has stood out to me the most is the lack of a big ball carrier at number 8, in the mould of Vunipola, Heaslip or Parisse. Beattie has been utterly anonymous in our first three games and he has to go back to Castres to see if he can get his form back. For me, Denton should be at 8 for the England game as he looked fit and hungry at Cardiff on Sunday. Personally, Beattie looks like he’ll struggle to make our WC squad and I would have Ashe, Denton and Strauss ahead of him in the pecking order. I would echo the sentiments about Harley in that he has had a quiet few games, although I would give him the benefit of the doubt in not being fully match fit. Harley is an excellent 6 and definitely our WC 6, but hopefully he can improve his ball carrying as he doesn’t really break the gain line regularly. Generally, if I recall correctly, our scrum has been okay in the first three games, but we appeared to struggle at times with Clancy’s officiating of it at the weekend. I wouldn’t necessarily make any changes to the front row but adapting to the referee’s interpretation is something we surely have to work on – I guess you would call it being more ‘streetwise’. (I should add I have never played in the front row so I have absolutely no clue what goes on there most of the time).

In handling the Italian rolling maul, I have no clue why we didn’t stand off the maul and sack the ball carrier around the back. This is something which Glasgow have down to a fine art (and I say that as an Edinburgh fan first, and a Glasgow fan second), with Fusaro or Holmes (I think) normally popping round the back to sack it. It was bizarre not to see us do that, and we surely have to work on it in the week before the England match, because both they and Ireland will target this.

Moving to the backs, Hogg was okay in the sense that he wanted to get involved and was our main attacking threat, but some of his passing was shocking at times, either too low, too high or behind the man. Seymour had a quiet game, but I think that stemmed from the attacking system we had in place, in which we appeared to be trying to play a lot of inside balls and putting men on the outside of the carrier’s shoulder for a pop pass. Personally I think we may have been better served by running straight and getting the ball wide. Dunbar and Bennett have been our stars of the 6N so far and they had solid enough games at the weekend. With Scott in the background and hopefully pushing them when he regains his form, we have a trio of centres who could push on to be world class. We’ve certainly come a long way since the days of Dewey, Henderson, Di Rollo, Morrison and Andy Craig!! Horne had a reasonable enough game, up until that kick, which was unforgivable for a 10. In Scotland, we seem to be perfecting the skill of missing touch with penalties – Russell managed it against Wales, Horne against Italy and Te Rure did it against Cardiff at the weekend.

Lamont had a bit of nightmare really. I have no idea what he was thinking about with the restart after Bennett’s try, because from my view in the stands, the ball was clearly going over the line on the full. If in doubt, just leave it. The worst case scenario if he had left it would have been that it bounced into touch!

As for Laidlaw, at the Argentina match he was superb, attacking round the fringes and taking quick penalties. It seemed that he had turned a corner, but he has regressed since then. He carries next to no threat around the fringes and that is not acceptable for a 9 these days at international level. When you look at Murray and Webb, they carry a threat around the fringe, which draws the men in. Both Cusiter and Blair had this in their prime, and it was just a shame that we could barely get a decent back line together in those days. There is this chat about ‘leadership’ and ‘game management’, which is fine, but I don’t really see that from Laidlaw. His decision-making at the base of the ruck is slow and we’ve made some bizarre decisions at times, such as Hogg taking a place kick from nearly the half-way line in either the France or Wales match when he normally just blasts them wide from that range. And, as has been said, he does not seem to be able to communicate with referees in the same way as other captains can. I accept that we do have a chronic lack of leadership in this squad, but for me the captain has to be guaranteed their place in every game and that’s Jonny Gray for me. Furthermore, there is this argument about Laidlaw’s kicking accuracy and how we need him, but Russell is no mug when it comes to kicking, and neither is SHC. Plus, Laidlaw’s kicking stats are surely helped by the fact that he doesn’t really take them when they are long-distance (ie, past the 10m line) because he doesn’t have the distance, whilst Russell and SHC do.

For me, if we are looking for a threat round the fringes and a genuinely exciting attacking threat to go with our exciting backs, then we pick SHC. If we’re looking for structure, we go with Cusiter. And if we’re looking for a middle ground, personally I would go with Pyrgos, whom I think is very underrated!

I think there are three key elements to getting quick ball:
1. Get over the gain line;
2. Quickly clear out the tackler;
3. The tackled player should precisely place the ball out for the SH to pass.
Of course, that is all down to having support in the right place, and it then relies on the SH moving the ball quickly. Laidlaw can be too slow to even reach the base of the ruck, which I don’t think would be the case with one of our other scrummies.

That’s really the end of my long rant and kudos to anyone that actually bothered to read it all!

My XV for the England match:
1. Dickinson
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Hamilton (to provide some extra beef because that English scrum will tear us apart if we keep Swinson)
5. J. Gray (c)
6. Harley
7. Cowan
8. Denton

9. Cusiter/SHC (I would be tempted to go for SHC as we should probably give him some game time before the WC, but I fully expect Laidlaw will be retained)
10. Russell
11. Maitland (if fit, failing which I would give Dougie Fife another go)
12. Dunbar
13. Bennett
14. Seymour
15. Hogg

Welcome, SWLF. Hug

Although you won't go very far on these boards making common sense and well considered posts like that....

by **RDW** Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:54 pm

Welcome to the forum SWLF - you won't fit in here if you carry on with well written, eloquent posts like that that though! Very Happy

by **RDW** Tue 03 Mar 2015, 12:54 pm

Me and GC obviously thought the same thing!

by R!skysports Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:02 pm

Welcome, SWLF. Hug

Although you won't go very far on these boards making common sense and well considered posts like that....

Welcome to the forum SWLF - you won't fit in here if you carry on with well written, eloquent posts like that that though! Very Happy

Oops - seems I have written exactly the same as GC and RDW

by **George Carlin** Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:13 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Me and GC obviously thought the same thing!

by funnyExiledScot Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:14 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Stat of the day - Martin Castrogiovani has scored the same number of International tries as Sean Lamont.

You're not playing fair. Castro has more caps.....

by **RDW** Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:15 pm

He does, but given that he is a tighthead prop in a team regularly beaten, I thought it more than made up for the caps difference!

by funnyExiledScot Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:18 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:He does, but given that he is a tighthead prop in a team regularly beaten, I thought it more than made up for the caps difference!

It doesn't. Sean Lamont tries really hard, what more do we want?? We need to stop being mean about his try scoring record across his entire career (club and country), lack of pace, ball handling skills and awareness and focus on the positives. He tries really hard.

by R!skysports Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:28 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:He does, but given that he is a tighthead prop in a team regularly beaten, I thought it more than made up for the caps difference!

It doesn't. Sean Lamont tries really hard, what more do we want?? We need to stop being mean about his try scoring record across his entire career (club and country), lack of pace, ball handling skills and awareness and focus on the positives. He tries really hard.

Finally you get it Very Happy

by cakeordeath Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:34 pm

Welcome to the forum SWLF, and a cracking first post.

As for the great winger debate. I have not forgiven Visser for his shambolic performance in France, so I think he should sit out the rest of the 6N. As should Lamont, for different reasons.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:42 pm

cakeordeath wrote:Welcome to the forum SWLF, and a cracking first post.

As for the great winger debate. I have not forgiven Visser for his shambolic performance in France, so I think he should sit out the rest of the 6N. As should Lamont, for different reasons.

So unless Maitland is fit we think Dougie Fife should play against England? Has his form for club/country been better than Visser?

by Weegie Wizard Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:49 pm

Whilst he wasn't spectacular by any stretch against France, I don't see what he did to leave him out for the rest of the tournament.

His only memorable contribution was to go for that intercept. Going into the final stages of a game where we were losing by 7 points I think we should drop any winger who didn't go for that.

by cakeordeath Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:53 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:Welcome to the forum SWLF, and a cracking first post.

As for the great winger debate. I have not forgiven Visser for his shambolic performance in France, so I think he should sit out the rest of the 6N. As should Lamont, for different reasons.

So unless Maitland is fit we think Dougie Fife should play against England? Has his form for club/country been better than Visser?

I prefer Fife to Visser just now. We need wingers who will come in looking for work, and we aren't getting that with Timbo.

Weegie, I thought Visser just didn't look interested in getting involved in the game, his tackling was the worst I have ever seen from him (which is an achievement)

by R!skysports Tue 03 Mar 2015, 1:56 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:Welcome to the forum SWLF, and a cracking first post.

As for the great winger debate. I have not forgiven Visser for his shambolic performance in France, so I think he should sit out the rest of the 6N. As should Lamont, for different reasons.

So unless Maitland is fit we think Dougie Fife should play against England? Has his form for club/country been better than Visser?

In international - yes - -he has scored a try recently which is the only criteria it seems

by funnyExiledScot Tue 03 Mar 2015, 2:01 pm

cakeordeath wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:Welcome to the forum SWLF, and a cracking first post.

As for the great winger debate. I have not forgiven Visser for his shambolic performance in France, so I think he should sit out the rest of the 6N. As should Lamont, for different reasons.

So unless Maitland is fit we think Dougie Fife should play against England? Has his form for club/country been better than Visser?

I prefer Fife to Visser just now. We need wingers who will come in looking for work, and we aren't getting that with Timbo.

Weegie, I thought Visser just didn't look interested in getting involved in the game, his tackling was the worst I have ever seen from him (which is an achievement)

We didn't really have much attacking ball with which wingers could come off the wing looking to cut lines, unless you are suggesting he abandon his post on the wing when the opposition have the ball??

Visser didn't play particularly well in the first two games, no question, but he does seem to have his detractors lining up before the starting whistle goes. In the list of poorly performing Scotland players there are a fair few ahead of him. Lamont has been useless, Laidlaw has slowed our attack down to a halt and both Beattie and Harley have yet to show up for work this 6 Nations.

by R!skysports Tue 03 Mar 2015, 2:08 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:Welcome to the forum SWLF, and a cracking first post.

As for the great winger debate. I have not forgiven Visser for his shambolic performance in France, so I think he should sit out the rest of the 6N. As should Lamont, for different reasons.

So unless Maitland is fit we think Dougie Fife should play against England? Has his form for club/country been better than Visser?

I prefer Fife to Visser just now. We need wingers who will come in looking for work, and we aren't getting that with Timbo.

Weegie, I thought Visser just didn't look interested in getting involved in the game, his tackling was the worst I have ever seen from him (which is an achievement)

We didn't really have much attacking ball with which wingers could come off the wing looking to cut lines, unless you are suggesting he abandon his post on the wing when the opposition have the ball??

Visser didn't play particularly well in the first two games, no question, but he does seem to have his detractors lining up before the starting whistle goes. In the list of poorly performing Scotland players there are a fair few ahead of him. Lamont has been useless, Laidlaw has slowed our attack down to a halt and both Beattie and Harley have yet to show up for work this 6 Nations.

Seymour managed it in before he got injured, fife has looked lively (although not the complete package) but the difference is they both look like they want to be in the team. At the moment Visser does not

I would agree on your list of team mates that should be also dropped - so this is not just a one finger point

by cakeordeath Tue 03 Mar 2015, 2:08 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:Welcome to the forum SWLF, and a cracking first post.

As for the great winger debate. I have not forgiven Visser for his shambolic performance in France, so I think he should sit out the rest of the 6N. As should Lamont, for different reasons.

So unless Maitland is fit we think Dougie Fife should play against England? Has his form for club/country been better than Visser?

I prefer Fife to Visser just now. We need wingers who will come in looking for work, and we aren't getting that with Timbo.

Weegie, I thought Visser just didn't look interested in getting involved in the game, his tackling was the worst I have ever seen from him (which is an achievement)

We didn't really have much attacking ball with which wingers could come off the wing looking to cut lines, unless you are suggesting he abandon his post on the wing when the opposition have the ball??

Visser didn't play particularly well in the first two games, no question, but he does seem to have his detractors lining up before the starting whistle goes. In the list of poorly performing Scotland players there are a fair few ahead of him. Lamont has been useless, Laidlaw has slowed our attack down to a halt and both Beattie and Harley have yet to show up for work this 6 Nations.

I agree, which is why I said Lamont should go as well. Because it is unfair to keep him and dump Visser.

by tigertattie Tue 03 Mar 2015, 2:12 pm

His Timness seems to have a look of resignation about him! Because he isn't getting the ball to run in tries, he's lost interest and is just going through the motions!

With wingers not scoring many tries in the tourny so far is this a sign that a drift defence has come back into fashion? Or is the blitz still the defensive system to use as it's getting in the oppostions faces before they can get the ball wide?

I think this is one of the problems with Scotland! No one is on the pitch going "Oh look. they keep charging up in a tight blitz defense! Lets shake it up by putting in a wee chip over the top or getting the scrummy to make a sniping run. Perhaps get a winger to come in off his line to cut an angle"

This was why we were not scoring tires under robbo! His plan was forward orientated using pods to hit round the side over and over again. The opposition read this and just defended the tight channels.

by Scottish White Line Fever Tue 03 Mar 2015, 2:22 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:Welcome to the forum SWLF, and a cracking first post.

As for the great winger debate. I have not forgiven Visser for his shambolic performance in France, so I think he should sit out the rest of the 6N. As should Lamont, for different reasons.

So unless Maitland is fit we think Dougie Fife should play against England? Has his form for club/country been better than Visser?

I prefer Fife to Visser just now. We need wingers who will come in looking for work, and we aren't getting that with Timbo.

Weegie, I thought Visser just didn't look interested in getting involved in the game, his tackling was the worst I have ever seen from him (which is an achievement)

We didn't really have much attacking ball with which wingers could come off the wing looking to cut lines, unless you are suggesting he abandon his post on the wing when the opposition have the ball??

Visser didn't play particularly well in the first two games, no question, but he does seem to have his detractors lining up before the starting whistle goes. In the list of poorly performing Scotland players there are a fair few ahead of him. Lamont has been useless, Laidlaw has slowed our attack down to a halt and both Beattie and Harley have yet to show up for work this 6 Nations.

Thanks to all for the welcome! I think, in fairness, it has been quite difficult to assess the form of all our wingers so far this 6N, as they have yet to really see the ball in space or have an attacking platform. Visser is an easy target, because of his vulnerabilities in defence, but it is difficult to assess his attacking form because of the lack of service to him. Scotland have not really created a chance for him - and neither have Edinburgh for vast parts of the season - and we're not so overloaded with wingers as to completely discount him from selection. I think our tactics generally have to be a bit more streetwise - admirable though it is to attempt to play rugby from your own 22, it is not wise to do so when your breakdown work is still slightly suspect as ours is. I would prefer us to try and play slightly more territory and utilise our attacking backs with set moves off the set piece to incorporate Seymour or Visser/Maitland/Fife and get them running flat onto the ball at pace.

Edit: I should add that I am not advocating the Solomons' approach in its entirety - I do not want to see our players be confined to kicking in our half, as we should still play heads-up rugby, but nor do we need to be gung-ho in our approach!

by **RDW** Tue 03 Mar 2015, 3:33 pm

It makes me very sad that one of the best rucking coaches in the world - a Scotsman - is coaching South Africa.

I suppose we keep stealing all their players, it's about time we sent something back in return!

by Majestic83 Tue 03 Mar 2015, 3:39 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:It makes me very sad that one of the best rucking coaches in the world - a Scotsman - is coaching South Africa.

I suppose we keep stealing all their players, it's about time we sent something back in return!

Agreed Richie Gray has made a huge difference to the South African team and it is a disgrace the SRU never approached him.
Also I noticed Clark Laidlaw has been announced as London Irish's new backs coach and will arrive next season. Currently he is the Hurricanes backs coach and before that was skills coach with the New Zealand 7s team and also coach at Taranaki.
He would be ideal as Scotlands backs coach and comes with a huge wealth of experience learning from some of the top coaches in the world.
I still am not convinced with Duncan Hodge as backs coach for Scotland, he was never the most creative player himself and certainly hasn't got the back line firing yet.

by Nematode Tue 03 Mar 2015, 9:50 pm

Quite pleased I didn't see the game live. Thanks BT thumbsup

Well, I saw some of it just now and I can't help but feel while we might have taken a step forward since the last year of AR and SJ, have we not taken a step back compared to when we were beating Argentina away, Ireland away, South Africa, Australia etc? There isn't really anything wrong with losing to Italy - we're both similar in ability and all past games have been close affairs really (that late stroker try, Weir DG). But that performance...

- A tortoise moves faster than Laidlaw at times.
- Lamont needs a free bus pass now...
- Beattie just wants to get back to France
- Our backline doesn't seem very coherent
- We need experience in the pack. Get Brown and Barclay in the pack, and probably Hamilton. Throw out the history book, and SJ for that matter. Just play them.
- Harley could do with a rest.

If Brown and Barclay aren't included - and Beattie still is - come the team announcement then I don't think I'll bother following Scotland anymore. There are options there that will improve the team that aren't being chosen to the detriment of the team. Why bother watching a lethargic team that plays unattractive, frustrating rugby when you have high quality rugby on show from Ireland? And dare I say it England (at times).

by sensisball Wed 04 Mar 2015, 9:41 am

Nematode
Agree with all you say, apart from Ireland playing attractive rugby (at the moment anyway!).
The horrible thing for us Scotland fans is that Cotter is clearly a massive step up in coaching quality from SJ but his coaching team is the same one we have laboured under for the last couple of seasons.
Humphreys manages to take a pack of forwards, most of whom are really well coached by Shade Munro at Glasgow and turn them into a bunch of work shy powder puffs who have no idea how to combat a solid rolling maul.

Selection is also an issue, particularly at 9. Laidlaw isn't a captain and if we want to play high tempo with the 10 pulling the strings then he simply has to go, no ifs no buts, he must be dropped.

Cusiter to start, he knows Russell's game well and the great run Glasgow had last year was when Toonie realized that mad Matawalu wasn't the best starting 9 and selected Cusiter, Russell, Dunbar and Bennett as his half backs and midfield.

Leadership is clearly a massive problem so bringing back Brown seems like an obvious choice. Harley is a few games back from injury and not at his best so again, for me, it seems the obvious choice.
Unfortunately the mad Aussie is still the director of rugby , and fell out with Brown after the Ireland debacle last year. I cant believe that Cotter's apparent dismissal of Brown isn't related to SJ's relationship, or lack thereof, with Kelly B.
If Big Vern doesn't have the stones to drop Laidlaw and bring back Brown then I think we are looking at a good coach trying to work with one hand tied behind his back, a situation that can only ever end badly for a country with such a small pool of genuine international class players.
PS. hopefully Denton or Ashe will be available to replace Beattie who has plummeted so far below his best he should think about joining Strokosch in pro deux next year. Oh hang on Castres are going to get relegated, so job done!

by R!skysports Wed 04 Mar 2015, 10:19 am

sensisball wrote: Nematode
Agree with all you say, apart from Ireland playing attractive rugby (at the moment anyway!).
The horrible thing for us Scotland fans is that Cotter is clearly a massive step up in coaching quality from SJ but his coaching team is the same one we have laboured under for the last couple of seasons.
Humphreys manages to take a pack of forwards, most of whom are really well coached by Shade Munro at Glasgow and turn them into a bunch of work shy powder puffs who have no idea how to combat a solid rolling maul.

Selection is also an issue, particularly at 9. Laidlaw isn't a captain and if we want to play high tempo with the 10 pulling the strings then he simply has to go, no ifs no buts, he must be dropped.

Cusiter to start, he knows Russell's game well and the great run Glasgow had last year was when Toonie realized that mad Matawalu wasn't the best starting 9 and selected Cusiter, Russell, Dunbar and Bennett as his half backs and midfield.

Leadership is clearly a massive problem so bringing back Brown seems like an obvious choice. Harley is a few games back from injury and not at his best so again, for me, it seems the obvious choice.
Unfortunately the mad Aussie is still the director of rugby , and fell out with Brown after the Ireland debacle last year. I cant believe that Cotter's apparent dismissal of Brown isn't related to SJ's relationship, or lack thereof, with Kelly B.
If Big Vern doesn't have the stones to drop Laidlaw and bring back Brown then I think we are looking at a good coach trying to work with one hand tied behind his back, a situation that can only ever end badly for a country with such a small pool of genuine international class players.
PS. hopefully Denton or Ashe will be available to replace Beattie who has plummeted so far below his best he should think about joining Strokosch in pro deux next year. Oh hang on Castres are going to get relegated, so job done!

Now I may get shot down in flames- but I do not think Beattie ever had a besst - I have never rated him and his whole reputation seems to be on 2 games with the Killer B's

I have no idea where his mythical reputation comes from - as he has been poor for years now

by funnyExiledScot Wed 04 Mar 2015, 10:49 am

Beattie had a storming season back with Glasgow under Lineen which led to that 6 Nations where we beat Ireland and he scored that cracking try. As you rightly say, that was a few years back and basically since he left Glasgow his career for Scotland has been in free fall.

Ball carriers have got bigger, defences smarter and in the meantime Beattie appears to have lost quite a bit of pace. Whereas has used to smash into the contact area at pace, he seems more worried about coming in with the correct body position (his previous body angle was prone to being too upright and therefore subsceptible to the choke tackle), which has seriously taken away from his game. He also used to be deployed at the tail of the lineout, which made good use of his handling skills to release the backline, but with Ford's throwing we have stopped going long to the tail, and therefore another aspect of his game has vanished.

The World Cup number 8s are clear in my mind: Josh Strauss (but not as captain mad

) and David Denton.

by sensisball Wed 04 Mar 2015, 11:00 am

Also Beattie suffered a serious shoulder injury after his great 6N's, lost his starting place to Ryan Wilson and never got it back and its been downhill since that point.

by jimbopip Wed 04 Mar 2015, 1:05 pm

SWLF welcome, some very interesting points made.
Did anyone else notice Vern's post match comments in which he said, and I paraphrase, " it's my fault ...they don't understand how I want them to play...I obviously haven't explained it properly... I'll need to think about how communicate so they do understand what I want?"
It reminded me very much of the psychopathic prison guard in Cool Hand Luke who just before unleashing a new and nasty punishment on the inmates would drawl, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".
I get the feeling that training next week will be rather unpleasant for some and quite "challenging" for most.
However, for the England game I would like to see;
a realisation that Cooseater, Henners and Samwise are all better (as in quicker and less glacially predictable) scrum halfs than Frodo,
a back row that sees clearing out rucks as one of their main reasons for being on the field ( Ashe or Dozer, both if Harley needs a rest),
Dancer back in,
Seymour, Maitland, Fife: pick the two fittest ,
Toolis and Watson watching from the naughty step,
Horne, if fit, benching. Ok he missed touch, but we were still defending from the halfway line and should have been able to keep them out if we hadn't conceded a penalty at the first breakdown. That was a bigger crime than missing touch IMHO. The yellow for Toolis was just dense, as Pitbull would say. Ditto Watson.

by **RDW** Wed 04 Mar 2015, 1:10 pm

Bit harsh on Toolis and Watson I think - Toolis' looked to me to be a team yellow, and as for Watson's from all the replays I couldn't see the maul being pulled down, never mind who did it!

The rules favour the attacking team when a maul collapses, and Watson was the one to take the blame.

Of course I expect this has nothing to do with them both being Edinburgh players! Whistle

The majority of people on here were calling for them to be in the squad for this game - they certainly shouldn't be binned straight away for two team yellows.

by GLove39 Wed 04 Mar 2015, 1:32 pm

Speaking of Watsons yellow given that the game was over & full time was a conversion away why'd Clownshoes bother?

by jimbopip Wed 04 Mar 2015, 1:58 pm

[quote="GLove39"]Speaking of Watsons yellow given that the game was over & full time was a conversion away why'd Clownshoes bother?[/quote]
To turn up?
To wait until the 78th minute to fecc up our day?
To take the red nose off before he went out on the pitch?

I have a recurring dream where it's Big Al's testimonial match at Scotstoun and Clownshoes is the touch judge in front of the North Stand. Only he's not running the line he's driving up and down in a brightly coloured car and bits keep falling off it. Every time the ball goes into touch he hands it back to the hooker and squirts water into his face from a lapel flower. This goes on for the full 80 minutes with no one noticing or commenting on it. At full time Big Al compliments Clownshoes on having one of his better games, shakes his hand and Clownshoes gets an electric shock and all his hair stands on end.
The thing is this dream makes more sense than spending a small fortune on going to Twickers next week with three Englishmen who will have a great time laughing at us and revelling in the result. Doh

by funnyExiledScot Wed 04 Mar 2015, 2:13 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Bit harsh on Toolis and Watson I think - Toolis' looked to me to be a team yellow, and as for Watson's from all the replays I couldn't see the maul being pulled down, never mind who did it!

The rules favour the attacking team when a maul collapses, and Watson was the one to take the blame.

Of course I expect this has nothing to do with them both being Edinburgh players!

The majority of people on here were calling for them to be in the squad for this game - they certainly shouldn't be binned straight away for two team yellows.

Agree 100%. Both have had very good seasons for Edinburgh and deserve a proper shot for Scotland. I'd argue in fact that Toolis ought to have started ahead of Swinson, and with Richie and Gilchrist out for the England game, I'd personally opt for Toolis to start along side Jonny Gray.

Whether Watson will be a success at international level I'm not entirely sure. He's better than any of the Glasgow opensides and I'm not yet sold on Cowan as more than a holding operation, but whilst John Barclay is in exile I think Watson should rightly be considered understudy to Cowan for Scotland.

by R!skysports Wed 04 Mar 2015, 2:49 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Bit harsh on Toolis and Watson I think - Toolis' looked to me to be a team yellow, and as for Watson's from all the replays I couldn't see the maul being pulled down, never mind who did it!

The rules favour the attacking team when a maul collapses, and Watson was the one to take the blame.

Of course I expect this has nothing to do with them both being Edinburgh players!

The majority of people on here were calling for them to be in the squad for this game - they certainly shouldn't be binned straight away for two team yellows.

I would agree as well. IF both of them did collapse the ruck it was due to the pressure and the ruck flying forward, so only thing they could try was to stop it. However I think it was just the momentum that brought it down - so not realy blame for them both and certainly should not be dropped for it

by funnyExiledScot Wed 04 Mar 2015, 3:14 pm

Given we don't seem capable of stopping a rolling maul, I wonder whether there isn't some sense in actually competing for the line out ball at source? It's a gamble, but even if you disrupt it, it makes it harder for the opposition to get the maul set.

England went for the corner against Ireland and Toner stole the lineout allowing Ireland to clear their lines without having to defend a tricky rolling maul. Makes good sense to me.

by jimbopip Wed 04 Mar 2015, 3:33 pm

Personally speaking I have never really seen the sense in not competing at the lineout. You give the opposition possession and allow them to set the attack on their terms. Or am I being too simplistic? This season Glasgow have looked at different ways to disrupt the opposition with reasonable success. Otherwise it looks as if your pack is standing still waiting to see what play the opposition choose and then trying to react to that. In that scenario the advantage should always be with the attacking side. It would make sense to me to defend differently every time so that the opposition are having to try to double guess you rather than imposing their gameplan on you.
p.s. Interesting to see that there are eight players not released back to their clubs this week;
Ross Ford
Al Dickinson
Rev Murray
Fraser Brown
Stuart Hogg
Alex Dunbar
Mark Bennett
Jonny Gray
That would seem to suggest that they are being rested and will all feature in the 23.

by **BigGee** Wed 04 Mar 2015, 3:51 pm

They have just added three more Glasgow players to that list, Seymour, Swinson and Russell, because of injury concerns apparently.

Stroks has done his ankle, no great loss and it appears Maitland is not going to be fit, we probably suspected that anyway. Not sure about why Russell other than the very sensible need to wrap him in cotton wool. Seems Swinson is definitely in the frame to play though. Maybe there is more injury concern than they are letting on at the moment.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 04 Mar 2015, 3:58 pm

Maybe Vern is concerned about Dave Attwood's lack of impact in this 6 Nations, and out of pity thought he'd give him Tim Swinson to dominate for 80 minutes.

Nice bloke our Vern.

by **RDW** Wed 04 Mar 2015, 5:38 pm

Other than Russell, I can't see why swinson and Seymour have been called back. We've still got fit wingers, and with Denton and Ashe returning why do we need a 2nd row to cover a back row injury?

Swinson needs gametime.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 04 Mar 2015, 5:45 pm

As does Seymour, who looked off the pace (or at least his usual pace) against Italy.

by Scottish White Line Fever Wed 04 Mar 2015, 5:52 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Given we don't seem capable of stopping a rolling maul, I wonder whether there isn't some sense in actually competing for the line out ball at source? It's a gamble, but even if you disrupt it, it makes it harder for the opposition to get the maul set.

England went for the corner against Ireland and Toner stole the lineout allowing Ireland to clear their lines without having to defend a tricky rolling maul. Makes good sense to me.

I agree completely with this - even if you're defending on your own 5 metre line, the chances are that the opposition hooker will throw to the front pod as it's the safest throw so you might as well try and challenge it if you cannot defend a rolling maul!

by Scottish White Line Fever Wed 04 Mar 2015, 6:30 pm

Also, I was discussing this with a mate the other day, isn't Cotter's contract due to expire at the end of the World Cup? If he chooses not to sign a new contract, where do we go from there? I guess it depends who is available at the time, so it's too early to speculate too much!

I imagine the obvious candidate will be Toonie stepping up into the Scotland head coach role. Supposing that that happens, I wouldn't mind seeing a Chris Paterson/Mike Blair coaching team take over at Glasgow, if Blair chooses to retire. Reading Blair's columns suggest that he has a good tactical brain and Mossy is always very impressive on commentary. I'd be intrigued to hear what you guys think might happen.

by **RDW** Wed 04 Mar 2015, 7:07 pm

If toony was to take over I suspect Shade Munroe would become head coach.

Mossy already does some coaching - kicking/catching for both Edinburgh and Glasgow. He needs to work more with Horne!

by SirBurger Wed 04 Mar 2015, 7:53 pm

I thought Cowan had another good game for you guys at the weekend - yet lots of you seem to not be fans. I am biased as a London Irish fan? Or am I missing something?

by **BigGee** Wed 04 Mar 2015, 7:55 pm

I personally hope VC carries on for the next WC cycle. I can't imagine he will really achieve all that much with the team over such a short period, surely he must have a longer timeframe in mind.

Toonie will no doubt get the chance further down the line, but he is still relatively new to coaching and 4 years time will be fine. In many ways Glasgow will do well to hang on to him for that period of time anyway, as he would no doubt be in demand should he want to move on. He roved around as a player though and has a young family, so maybe he fancies a bit of stability for a while. I certainly hope so!

by **BigGee** Wed 04 Mar 2015, 7:56 pm

SirBurger wrote:I thought Cowan had another good game for you guys at the weekend - yet lots of you seem to not be fans. I am biased as a London Irish fan? Or am I missing something?

I agree with you, unfortunately for some Scottish fans he will be dammed merely by not being John Barclay!

by Sponsored content