Ireland v England - Post-match warmdown

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Ireland 19 - 9 England

A continuation of the match thread.

Be respectful please. Your mothers would be proud.

I don't know why all the fuss about Payne. Like the whole Ireland team, he is playing solidly and I've been impressed with his ball carrying. He is stronger than he looks.

What can you say about Mike Ross. I wrote him off before the tournament started. He usually comes good in the 6 nations but his form this season has been well below standard. He looked back to his best yesterday though so fair play to him for coming good again! Moore looked solid too but he always seems to give away a penalty in his first scrum coming off the bench. The lineout was excellent with a perfect display from Best.

Ireland were very good at the breakdown. It was the main area of dominance for Ireland. Credit to TOD and Jordi Murphy. POM and Best seemed to be everywhere in the rucks and must have sore bodies today.

The back 3 were rock solid without being spectacular. Sexton and Murray had a solid display also. Things went downhill when Madigan came on. Pity Hanrahan hasn't gotten any time at 10 with Munster.

Henshaw's had a great tournament so far. Not much from an attacking point of view but he has hardly put a foot wrong.

Henshaw was in support, that's why. Payne just didn't show any awareness to find him. Henshaw was running some excellent supporting lines.

I have explained my point, you can counter my views without resorting to saying that people don't take me seriously but if you read this thread, I am far from being alone in my observations. Does that mean that the other posters are not to be taken seriously, even the English fans that have said the same things?

Does that make it OK for me to be painted as a hater of someone because he is not born in Ireland?

No it does not and I can be very honest in this, I am tired of it. I have not been abusive and have explained my points clearly. Whether or not I am wrong doesn't matter but it is in no way that I can be targeted like this.

It occurs to me to say that one of England's biggest losses this year has not been an unfit player. If Care were in the form of last year, he would be a monumental addition to that side. The rest of the scrum-halves available to England are much of a muchness and certainly not within hailing distance of Murray as a reader of the game, a tactician or in the technical basics. Last year, Care was of that sort of quality and was the mainspring behind much that was good from Englandin 2014. In the modern game, 9 is just about the most important position on the park and in that respect, England were light years behind yesterday.

captain carrantuohil wrote:It occurs to me to say that one of England's biggest losses this year has not been an unfit player. If Care were in the form of last year, he would be a monumental addition to that side. The rest of the scrum-halves available to England are much of a muchness and certainly not within hailing distance of Murray as a reader of the game, a tactician or in the technical basics. Last year, Care was of that sort of quality and was the mainspring behind much that was good from Englandin 2014. In the modern game, 9 is just about the most important position on the park and in that respect, England were light years behind yesterday.

Yup.

captain carrantuohil wrote:It occurs to me to say that one of England's biggest losses this year has not been an unfit player. If Care were in the form of last year, he would be a monumental addition to that side. The rest of the scrum-halves available to England are much of a muchness and certainly not within hailing distance of Murray as a reader of the game, a tactician or in the technical basics. Last year, Care was of that sort of quality and was the mainspring behind much that was good from Englandin 2014. In the modern game, 9 is just about the most important position on the park and in that respect, England were light years behind yesterday.

9 is important???!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Say it again Captain. I need it loud and clear. 9 is essential. A perfect 10 is a perfect harmless bollix without a perfect 9

I've long felt that care has a speed of thought that youngs doesn't. In form he sets a tempo that gets the side on the front foot. Much of what was good about England 12 months ago was driven by him. Youngs seems to take a little longer to assess his options and in doing so automatically reduces those options.

That said, yesterday Murray got his ball on a platter and youngs was getting scrappy and disrupted ball, so I'd cut him some slack.

I'd go so far as to say that a perfect 10 doesn't exist without a nearly perfect 9. The sawn-off runts with a penchant for irritating everyone, especially their own team-mates, are the ones who will make space for their 10s, keep their forwards on the front foot and drive referees mad. Or not.

milkyboy wrote:I've long felt that care has a speed of thought that youngs doesn't. In form he sets a tempo that gets the side on the front foot. Much of what was good about England 12 months ago was driven by him. Youngs seems to take a little longer to assess his options and in doing so automatically reduces those options.

That said, yesterday Murray got his ball on a platter and youngs was getting scrappy and disrupted ball, so I'd cut him some slack.

12 months ago Care, in my opinion, was a match winner and probably the best 9 in the world.

His speed of decision making and his ability to get the backs running great lines was amazing. Totally made Farrell redundant in many games which funnily enough, was a great balance as it took the pressure off Farrell to focus entirely on his kicking game. A fit Care is a hell of a player and one England miss more than anyone.

SecretFly wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:It occurs to me to say that one of England's biggest losses this year has not been an unfit player. If Care were in the form of last year, he would be a monumental addition to that side. The rest of the scrum-halves available to England are much of a muchness and certainly not within hailing distance of Murray as a reader of the game, a tactician or in the technical basics. Last year, Care was of that sort of quality and was the mainspring behind much that was good from Englandin 2014. In the modern game, 9 is just about the most important position on the park and in that respect, England were light years behind yesterday.

9 is important???!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Say it again Captain.  I need it loud and clear.  9 is essential.  A perfect 10 is a perfect harmless bollix without a perfect 9

Surely, if there's a god in heaven, there simply has to be a student band somewhere called 'Perfect Harmless Bollix'?

I refer to my earlier comment:

I have suggested your problem is because of his birth because it is not based on evidence or rational understanding of the match. You have said that isn’t the case. I'm happy to accept that.

In other words, what you have said about Payne is patently false and fundamentally nonsensical. I suggested an underlying reason- you don't want Payne playing for Ireland because he is a New Zealander. You said that isn't the case. Good enough for me. I never used he word 'hate'. You have made false allegation which are serious in nature. You should either make an official complaint or withdraw it immediately.

In earlier posts I referred to some people who did not want Payne to play because he was a New Zealander. It is reason to say as some people have said that, and I was initially agreed. I don't like the residency rules. I don't like how they are being cynically exploited, particularly by Ireland and France. Show me the racism.

Furthermore not every post I and other make refers to you. If I wish to refer to you I will. In future you would do well not to assume otherwise. Your post about your conduct is laughable as is a parody of your tone and behaviour. Your posts are not based in reality. They are baseless and nonsensical and have no merit. You have no produced one bit of evidence to back up your claims. Your support lines comment is utter nonsense with no merit whatsoever.

Exiled Gael wrote:I refer to my earlier comment:

I have suggested your problem is because of his birth because it is not based on evidence or rational understanding of the match. You have said that isn’t the case. I'm happy to accept that.

In other words, what you have said about Payne is patently false and fundamentally nonsensical. I suggested an underlying reason- you don't want Payne playing for Ireland because he is a New Zealander. You said that isn't the case. Good enough for me. I never used he word 'hate'. You have made false allegation which are serious in nature. You should either make an official complaint or withdraw it immediately.

In earlier posts I referred to some people who did not want Payne to play because he was a New Zealander. It is reason to say as some people have said that, and I was initially agreed. I don't like the residency rules. I don't like how they are being cynically exploited, particularly by Ireland and France. Show me the racism.

Furthermore not every post I and other make refers to you. If I wish to refer to you I will. In future you would do well not to assume otherwise. Your post about your conduct is laughable as is a parody of your tone and behaviour. Your posts are not based in reality. They are baseless and nonsensical and have no merit. You have no produced one bit of evidence to back up your claims. Your support lines comment is utter nonsense with no merit whatsoever.

Please show me evidence where I have been offensive in posts? You have been the offensive one in these debates not I.
I have clearly explained myself on numerous occasions and I am also not alone in these observations, several other posters have also made them. You, unfortunately have not been able to provide any counter debate other than to slur me (Yes you did refer to me as hating Payne because he was not born in Ireland so don't even think about backtracking on that one) and say that my observations are nonsensical and baseless and not in reality, that's hardly a counter to my points. Please also show me where I have shown the slightest glimpse of provincial bias (another of your baseless accusations towards me) when I want Jones, a Munster player, dropped? Please provide a rebuttal if you feel I am wrong, I am very much open to it. If you cannot then so be it, but suggesting that I am all of the above is frankly poor.

Ben Youngs is at his best with a go forward pack. Always has been. He's nothing like as good at dealing with scrappy ball - and I mean that in relation to other scrum halves in general. Danny Care at his best is a bit better I think, but when not quite on form tends to crab sideways and put his backs under pressure. Neither is quite up to the quality of Conor Murray, on what we saw yesterday, nor come to that of Rhys Webb. I don't think we have a really top flight scrum half at present.

Regarding Payne - he has been instrumental in nullifying opposition midfields - Basteraud was dropped for Wales and Joseph didn't turn out to be the father of Jesus after all. Payne had his best game yet on Sunday and is obviously there to organise the defence. Of any of the possible candidates for the 13 jersey he looks to be the most adept defensively, which is surely why Joe is sticking with him. With two away games to come Schmidt won't change the partnership unless he's forced to.
BOD said that Cave didn't have more caps because of his defence. Neither Earls nor Fitzgerald strike me as vocal guys who will bark out orders to organise the defence either, so maybe Joe doesn't have any better option?
It was interesting too in Henshaw's after match interview how much credit he gave to Payne, so there is obviously a lot of respect there, and something that can be built on.

Nachos Jones wrote:Once again I feel as if I have to explain myself again on here to fools who cannot read and simply try to put me in a corner as a hater of a player born in New Zealand playing for Ireland. Nothing could be further from the truth, I actually rate him as a player just not at 13. I am not saying he is not been solid but he has not looked good going forward (a 13's job) at this level. Defensively sound, but going forward and offloading and awareness seems to be something he is not that good at, that's the 15 in him.

Rewatch the game with both eyes open - you might notice the wrap around with Sexton which led to Henshaws try. Or you could check his meterage - which is way more impressive than anything from O'Driscoll post 2009.

There is a dileberate strategy of avoiding offloads across the team. How many offloads have Zebo, Henshaw, Bowe or Kearney made this championship? Answer that and maybe you'll get why some people, including myself, think you are being xenophobic towards Payne - who has done everything asked of him by Schmidt.

George Carlin wrote:
Surely, if there's a god in heaven, there simply has to be a student band somewhere called 'Perfect Harmless Bollix'?

Well, if one develops that didn't exist before now, then I want my cut of royalties................

i disagree with a lot of what has been posted here about how dominant Ireland were. England conceded 6 really dumb penalties, where not only were they unnecessary, they were self-inflicted. almost all Ireland's points came from these brainfart moments.

Haskell in 2nd minute flopping around with his legs in the air - 3 points
Attwood, offside twice despite being warned, made no difference to his ability to get to the irish backline either - 3 points
Ford bad decision to run led to accidental offside penalty conceded by Watson - (sexton missed this one uncharacterstically)
Burrell bad decision not to pass (overlap outside) led to him being wrapped up by 3 greens in front of our posts - 3 points
JJ neck tackle on irish winger gave Murray the opportunity to go for the chip kick which scored the try - 7 points

Mistakes come from pressure.  Especially given how accurate England have been to date.

They are far far too well coached to simply collapse due to internal combustion problems. It's not a angle that is sellable. They were conceding and 'brainfarting' because they were under pressure.  The pressure made the brains fuzzy and forced errors.

And a team was responsible for that.  The team England played.

quinsforever wrote:i disagree with a lot of what has been posted here about how dominant Ireland were. England conceded 6 really dumb penalties, where not only were they unnecessary, they were self-inflicted. almost all Ireland's points came from these brainfart moments.

And those brainfart moments came from pressure.

You could say too that all Englands points were self inflicted by Ireland too amd that if Sexton and Ross hadn't of went off, I would say we'd have turned the screw and the scoreboard wouldn't have looked so favourable for England in the end...but we'll never know.

Ultimately I'll take the 10 point win but think there are a lot of areas we need to tighten up on to beat Wales.... and pray Sexton is available because Madigan was pretty poor when he came on.

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Once again I feel as if I have to explain myself again on here to fools who cannot read and simply try to put me in a corner as a hater of a player born in New Zealand playing for Ireland. Nothing could be further from the truth, I actually rate him as a player just not at 13. I am not saying he is not been solid but he has not looked good going forward (a 13's job) at this level. Defensively sound, but going forward and offloading and awareness seems to be something he is not that good at, that's the 15 in him.

Rewatch the game with both eyes open - you might notice the wrap around with Sexton which led to Henshaws try. Or you could check his meterage - which is way more impressive than anything from O'Driscoll post 2009.

There is a dileberate strategy of avoiding offloads across the team. How many offloads have Zebo, Henshaw, Bowe or Kearney made this championship? Answer that and maybe you'll get why some people, including myself, think you are being xenophobic towards Payne - who has done everything asked of him by Schmidt.

I have watched the game and I have my views which have been clearly made.

I am saying that he plays a lot more like a 15 than a 13 because of him not offloading (if you manage to read my posts with both eyes open like you suggest I do, you will also read that I said this may be a tactic from Schmidt). It is a concern of mine that Payne does not run the supporting lines of an International 13. Watch Henshaws lines when Payne made breaks, he was right there with him like any good 12/13 should be. I have also said that I believe this to be because he is not playing at 13 regularly for Ulster due to Cave (who I incidentally believe is underrated and should be in the squad, if not starting at 13).

I have also credited Payne for his defensive play, he is very solid defensively and has contributed a lot to Irelands recent success. All I feel is that he would be better on the bench to cover 12/13/15 in case of injuries over Felix Jones.

As you are one of the posters accusing me of hating Payne because of the origin of his birth, I would like you to provide evidence if you will.

Cowshot wrote:Ben Youngs is at his best with a go forward pack. Always has been. He's nothing like as good at dealing with scrappy ball - and I mean that in relation to other scrum halves in general. Danny Care at his best is a bit better I think, but when not quite on form tends to crab sideways and put his backs under pressure. Neither is quite up to the quality of Conor Murray, on what we saw yesterday, nor come to that of Rhys Webb. I don't think we have a really top flight scrum half at present.

Every scrum-half looks good behind a pack going forward!

The reason the French scrum halves run their game rather than the 10s is that they generally have good ball to deal with and so more time to execute. It's something that I've often wondered why England don't do the same given the strength of their pack (other than a legacy of the past). George Ford looks to have the speed of thought and foot to easily make a transition to 9. His lack of physique wouldn't be as exposed and he could have just as big an impact on the game. Having a more defensively orientated 10 like Farrell outside him would be a good blend and cover most game plans.

SecretFly wrote:Mistakes come from pressure.  Especially given how accurate England have been to date.

They are far far too well coached to simply collapse due to internal combustion problems.  It's not a angle that is sellable. They were conceding and 'brainfarting' because they were under pressure.  The pressure made the brains fuzzy and forced errors.

And a team was responsible for that.  The team England played.

Yep. Suffocated by a green tide

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:i disagree with a lot of what has been posted here about how dominant Ireland were. England conceded 6 really dumb penalties, where not only were they unnecessary, they were self-inflicted. almost all Ireland's points came from these brainfart moments.

And those brainfart moments came from pressure.

You could say too that all Englands points were self inflicted by Ireland too amd that if Sexton and Ross hadn't of went off, I would say we'd have turned the screw and the scoreboard wouldn't have looked so favourable for England in the end...but we'll never know.

Ultimately I'll take the 10 point win but think there are a lot of areas we need to tighten up on to beat Wales.... and pray Sexton is available because Madigan was pretty poor when he came on.  

Now now.  Let's not pick on players, rodders.

That's bound to be the absolute toughest thing to do - to come on to a white hot game (result possibilities wise) against a very top side and expect to take over exactly at the same tempo and control as the best 10 in the NH.  I'd pat Madigan on the back, because that is NOT an easy task and a massive responsibility to be in charge of containing England in a final quarter.

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:i disagree with a lot of what has been posted here about how dominant Ireland were. England conceded 6 really dumb penalties, where not only were they unnecessary, they were self-inflicted. almost all Ireland's points came from these brainfart moments.

And those brainfart moments came from pressure.

You could say too that all Englands points were self inflicted by Ireland too amd that if Sexton and Ross hadn't of went off, I would say we'd have turned the screw and the scoreboard wouldn't have looked so favourable for England in the end...but we'll never know.

Ultimately I'll take the 10 point win but think there are a lot of areas we need to tighten up on to beat Wales.... and pray Sexton is available because Madigan was pretty poor when he came on.  

most of those brainfart moments did not come from pressure. 2 when we were throwing the ball around in our own 22 (could easily have cleared the lines which is what a side under pressure would have done). Attwood's 2 offsides were comical. thats not pressure thats criminal carelessness.

the high tackle was england defending under pressure agreed.

teams feeling "under pressure" dont make decisions like Robshaw did and go for the try rather than easy 3 points. if anything England were guilty of the opposite - namely not giving enough respect to Ireland.

Ireland outplayed us in several areas, but we helped them do it through poor discipline. It made everything we tried to do more difficult right from the first whistle: Billy Vunipola in from the side for no good reason and obviously so; pressure off; another penalty (forget who) also completely unnecessary and we're 3 points down in moments. The Irish barely had to do a thing. But the precision of the Irish kick chase and their domination of the breakdown added to poor discipline meant we didn't get into the game for 60 minutes.

I think that its harsh to say that Madigan was poor when he came on, he was replacing Sexton who, not only is the best 10 in world rugby right now (my opinion), was having an excellent game. There is no shame to being a step down from Sexton. Personally, I thought he was solid. It has been an Irish thing of late to switch off after 60 mins and close out a game when leading, a very dangerous thing o do. I don't think you can blame Madigan.

Pressure is being forced out of rhythm because your inner self is telling you things you don't want to hear - like "we're up against it here" and therefore your brain tries to overcompensate by being too reactionary and making mistakes that are pingable.

From the start the English team looked like a side that somehow didn't expect Ireland to be so aggressive.  They were unsettled.  Their eyes told you the story.  They expected something easier.  They'd obviously planned for something easier.  That's the mystery.

Nachos Jones wrote:I have watched the game and I have my views which have been clearly made.

I am saying that he plays a lot more like a 15 than a 13 because of him not offloading (if you manage to read my posts with both eyes open like you suggest I do, you will also read that I said this may be a tactic from Schmidt). It is a concern of mine that Payne does not run the supporting lines of an International 13. Watch Henshaws lines when Payne made breaks, he was right there with him like any good 12/13 should be. I have also said that I believe this to be because he is not playing at 13 regularly for Ulster due to Cave (who I incidentally believe is underrated and should be in the squad, if not starting at 13).

Funny then that Schmidt said after the French game that one of the reasons Payne is picked is because of the quality of his support lines.

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:I have watched the game and I have my views which have been clearly made.

I am saying that he plays a lot more like a 15 than a 13 because of him not offloading (if you manage to read my posts with both eyes open like you suggest I do, you will also read that I said this may be a tactic from Schmidt). It is a concern of mine that Payne does not run the supporting lines of an International 13. Watch Henshaws lines when Payne made breaks, he was right there with him like any good 12/13 should be. I have also said that I believe this to be because he is not playing at 13 regularly for Ulster due to Cave (who I incidentally believe is underrated and should be in the squad, if not starting at 13).

Funny then that Schmidt said after the French game that one of the reasons Payne is picked is because of the quality of his support lines.

I am sure Schmidt said that but I don't require Schmidt to form my opinions. Please counter what I have said in regards to the points to have made in your own words if you think that I am wrong.

Please also provide evidence where I hate Payne because of his birthplace as you have accused me of...

Ireland's head to head record v England is very good in the six nations. We are the only team to have defeated them more than they have defeated us. 9 wins to 7. France, Wales, Scotland and Italy all have negative records v England.

With this win we also close the gap on England on the all time six nations table.

Ireland won 52 Drawn 2 lost 24
England won 53 Drawn 1 Lost 24
France in third place.

Makes you wonder why England tend to see Wales as their biggest rivals.

Nachos Jones wrote:I think that its harsh to say that Madigan was poor when he came on, he was replacing Sexton who, not only is the best 10 in world rugby right now (my opinion), was having an excellent game. There is no shame to being a step down from Sexton. Personally, I thought he was solid. It has been an Irish thing of late to switch off after 60 mins and close out a game when leading, a very dangerous thing o do. I don't think you can blame Madigan.

Well apart from him kicking the ball out on the full, knocking the ball on, missing tackles and booting the ball down Goode's throat.... and the restarts were terrible after Sexton went off ... I thought he was a disaster.

Both England penalties came directly from Madigan, whereas 6 points in the first half were directly made by Sexton, so thats at 12 point swing between the two players in a 10 point game. If Madigan starts that game then we lose it.

Nachos Jones wrote:I think that its harsh to say that Madigan was poor when he came on, he was replacing Sexton who, not only is the best 10 in world rugby right now (my opinion), was having an excellent game. There is no shame to being a step down from Sexton. Personally, I thought he was solid. It has been an Irish thing of late to switch off after 60 mins and close out a game when leading, a very dangerous thing o do. I don't think you can blame Madigan.

One of his touchfinders was really really bad. I think it is fair to say he is a little flaky.

SecretFly wrote:Pressure is being forced out of rhythm because your inner self is telling you things you don't want to hear - like "we're up against it here" and therefore your brain tries to overcompensate by being too reactionary and making mistakes that are pingable.

From the start the English team looked like a side that somehow didn't expect Ireland to be so aggressive.  They were unsettled.  Their eyes told you the story.  They expected something easier.  They'd obviously planned for something easier.  That's the mystery.

Don't think so. We knew it was going to be tough, players, supporters, dogs, cats and goldfish alike. What startled me was the clinical precision. That's a very slick machine operating there.

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:I think that its harsh to say that Madigan was poor when he came on, he was replacing Sexton who, not only is the best 10 in world rugby right now (my opinion), was having an excellent game. There is no shame to being a step down from Sexton. Personally, I thought he was solid. It has been an Irish thing of late to switch off after 60 mins and close out a game when leading, a very dangerous thing o do. I don't think you can blame Madigan.

Well apart from him kicking the ball out on the full, knocking the ball on, missing tackles and booting the ball down Goode's throat.... and the restarts were terrible after Sexton went off ... I thought he was a disaster.

Both England penalties came directly from Madigan, whereas 6 points in the first half were directly made by Sexton, so thats at 12 point swing between the two players in a 10 point game. If Madigan starts that game then we lose it.

I believe he was put under more pressure due to the general Irish side shutting down, something creeping badly into the Irish game, and also possibly trying to match Sexton's intensity and prove a point to Schmidt. I would imagine that Schmidt will discuss this with him and instil a little more composure in him. I don't think that he was as bad as you make out he was.

Who would you have above him right now, Keatley? That would be a huge mistake in my eyes.

Funny how I remember a man called Jackson who used to come on as fill in and often suffered as a consequence, and were criticisms of his flakiness accepted by his defenders?

I say all players are open season for criticism.  Payne included.  If Payne is off the agenda though then so is a guy like Madigan who came onto a side knackered and spent with orders to keep the English off our doorstep.

Madigan.  Don't let the bastards get you down

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:I think that its harsh to say that Madigan was poor when he came on, he was replacing Sexton who, not only is the best 10 in world rugby right now (my opinion), was having an excellent game. There is no shame to being a step down from Sexton. Personally, I thought he was solid. It has been an Irish thing of late to switch off after 60 mins and close out a game when leading, a very dangerous thing o do. I don't think you can blame Madigan.

Well apart from him kicking the ball out on the full, knocking the ball on, missing tackles and booting the ball down Goode's throat.... and the restarts were terrible after Sexton went off ... I thought he was a disaster.

Both England penalties came directly from Madigan, whereas 6 points in the first half were directly made by Sexton, so thats at 12 point swing between the two players in a 10 point game. If Madigan starts that game then we lose it.

That's pretty damn obvious though, Sexton is instrumental to how you play.

Nachos Jones wrote:
Who would you have above him right now, Keatley? That would be a huge mistake in my eyes.

I'd start Keatley if Sexton was out - both are a massive drop in quality and not international standard 10's imo. Jackson is better than both as a fly half but his place kicking is a disaster.

Sexton is irreplacable at the minute so I hope JJ can come of age at Northampton, and do it quickly.

Madigan should become a 9 apprentice to Murray - his best position by far if he actually ever played there Put that in your pipes and smoke it!

Madigan is a good utility back, and very good place kicker but isn't a starting 10 at any decent level ... even upper end pro 12, for me.

Maybe he's just having a confidence crisis but his form is really poor at the minute.

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:
Who would you have above him right now, Keatley? That would be a huge mistake in my eyes.

I'd start Keatley if Sexton was out - both are a massive drop in quality and not international standard 10's imo. Jackson is better than both as a fly half but his place kicking is a disaster.

Sexton is irreplacable at the minute so I hope JJ can come of age at Northampton, and do it quickly.  

I would not start Keatley myself, I really don't think that he is quick enough (speed of thought) at International level. As for JJ, gutted he was allowed to leave Munster for Northampton, if he had to go, I would have preferred that he went to Conn and partnered up with Marmion.

You are still avoiding my question in regards to your accusation aimed at me... Would really appreciate a response.

Nachos Jones wrote:

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:
Who would you have above him right now, Keatley? That would be a huge mistake in my eyes.

I'd start Keatley if Sexton was out - both are a massive drop in quality and not international standard 10's imo. Jackson is better than both as a fly half but his place kicking is a disaster.

Sexton is irreplacable at the minute so I hope JJ can come of age at Northampton, and do it quickly.  

I would not start Keatley myself, I really don't think that he is quick enough (speed of thought) at International level. As for JJ, gutted he was allowed to leave Munster for Northampton, if he had to go, I would have preferred that he went to Conn and partnered up with Marmion.

You are still avoiding my question in regards to your accusation aimed at me... Would really appreciate a response.

I'm not a avoiding the question, I'm ignoring it - you have your view on Payne and I have my view on your view on Payne. There's nothing more to say on it.

rodders wrote:

I'm not a avoiding the question, I'm ignoring it - you have your view on Payne and I have my view on your view on Payne. There's nothing more to say on it.

Well I would appreciate an explanation as to why you would accuse me of hating somebody for being born in another country. You made the accusation towards me so I feel I deserve an explanation from you. Ignoring it is pretty poor, if you make an accusation then you either back it up or retract it... Choice is yours.

Well its like this - I don't think your criticism of Payne has any logical or consistent basis to it - in my opinon and the opinion of the the coach.

That may or may not be because he's not indiginious but on balance I'd take the view that, that is part of the reason for the lukewarm, at best, response to Payne's first few caps by not just yourself but others.

I didnt want him capped by Ireland at all to be honest. However, I reckon he has earned his keep.

That's not an answer rodders, very clever way of side stepping but not an answer or an explanation as to why you would accuse me of such a thing.

I have clearly no hatred of him, I have questioned whether his position in the Irish side is that of a 13 or a 15. Not one that he should not be in the side, far from it, he is very valuable to the team.

Absolutely no reason to accuse me or anyone else of hating a man because of his birthplace.

rodders wrote:Well its like this - I don't think your criticism of Payne has any logical or consistent basis to it - in my opinon and the opinion of the the coach.

That may or may not be because he's not indiginious but on balance I'd take the view that, that is part of the reason for the lukewarm, at best, response to Payne's first few caps by not just yourself but others.    

Or the fact he's just not that good.

Without being pedantic I don't recall using the word hatred in refrence to any of your posts.

I stand over my view that anyone criticising Payne's performance against England or France is doing so in part because of where he's from and the means by which he's qualified.

If someone wants to take that as a personal accusation then so be it.

rodders wrote:Without being pedantic I don't recall using the word hatred in refrence to any of your posts.

I stand over my view that anyone criticising Payne's performance against England or France is doing so in part because of where he's from and the means by which he's qualified.

If someone wants to take that as a personal accusation then so be it.

That is very poor rodders, you did refer to me as hating Payne because of where he was born.

Let me put it to you this way, you have criticised Madigan for his performance yesterday (I disagree). How would you then feel if I came out and made a sweeping accusation directed personally at you that you had a hatred for Madigan because he was born in Leinster and not Ulster?

I am sure you would feel very hurt to be accused of such a thing when you were only commenting on his performance and place in the team, would you not? You would also request me to explain where I drew that conclusion from.

Making sweeping accusations towards people is a very wrong thing to do, counter them for their opinions but do not paint people for something that they are not.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

rodders wrote:Well its like this - I don't think your criticism of Payne has any logical or consistent basis to it - in my opinon and the opinion of the the coach.

That may or may not be because he's not indiginious but on balance I'd take the view that, that is part of the reason for the lukewarm, at best, response to Payne's first few caps by not just yourself but others.    

Or the fact he's just not that good.

Well 'good' in a sporting context is a realitive term and the measues to assess the relative are both objective and subjective.

When the objective assessment (results and stats) diverges so far from the subjective (opinion based on observation) each game then you have to ask why.

Nachos Jones wrote:How would you then feel if I came out and made a sweeping accusation directed personally at you that you had a hatred for Madigan because he was born in Leinster and not Ulster?

No I'd disagree but wouldn't take it personally. I've been accused of hating ROG and Earls in the past because of where they're from and take it on the chin.

We've already seen that if Sexton is not available, then Keatley will come in as starting 10. Joe won't change that for the Welsh game. There is a good reason why Keatley starts ahead of Madigan (and JJ at Munster for that matter) - he is far more consistent. He also plays with Murray regularly so that has to be worth something.