Ireland v England - Post-match warmdown

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Ireland 19 - 9 England

A continuation of the match thread.

Be respectful please. Your mothers would be proud.

rodders wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

rodders wrote:Well its like this - I don't think your criticism of Payne has any logical or consistent basis to it - in my opinon and the opinion of the the coach.

That may or may not be because he's not indiginious but on balance I'd take the view that, that is part of the reason for the lukewarm, at best, response to Payne's first few caps by not just yourself but others.    

Or the fact he's just not that good.

Well 'good' in a sporting context is a realitive term and the measues to assess the relative are both objective and subjective.

When the objective assessment (results and stats) diverges so far from the subjective  (opinion based on observation) each game then you have to ask why.

The objective assessment doesn't mean a jot, there are 15 players working towards that, we are talking about the subjective opinion of an individual, in mine and many others opinion Payne is not a good enough 13 at international level.

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:How would you then feel if I came out and made a sweeping accusation directed personally at you that you had a hatred for Madigan because he was born in Leinster and not Ulster?

No I'd disagree but wouldn't take it personally. I've been accused of hating ROG and Earls in the past because of where they're from and take it on the chin.

Ok, so I take it like this. You think that it is ok to make sweeping accusations against people, without knowing them and painting them haters of people because they are born in another country... Fair play, I am just not like that. I do not believe in accusing people of such things myself but each to their own I guess.

The, Its been done to me so its OK to do it to someone else, defence.

Harrington is leading the Honda Classic with 3 holes to go. That would cap some weekend of Irish sport.

Payne may not be a good enough 13 at International level but considering he has outplayed his opposite number in three tests so far, that implies that they are not International quality either.
Joe obviously considers him to be his best option and if the machine ain't broken don't try and fix it.

The Great Aukster wrote:We've already seen that if Sexton is not available, then Keatley will come in as starting 10. Joe won't change that for the Welsh game. There is a good reason why Keatley starts ahead of Madigan (and JJ at Munster for that matter) - he is far more consistent. He also plays with Murray regularly so that has to be worth something.

You're probably right but I don't even think that Keatley should have been starting ahead of JJ this season. Keatley's continued selection over JJ has led him to leave Munster to go and play second fiddle at Northampton. The IRFU should have stepped in and got him to Conn or another team where he will be guaranteed 1st team play. Really stumping the development of a player who would be ideal to back up Sexton and even take over from him in years to come.

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:How would you then feel if I came out and made a sweeping accusation directed personally at you that you had a hatred for Madigan because he was born in Leinster and not Ulster?

No I'd disagree but wouldn't take it personally. I've been accused of hating ROG and Earls in the past because of where they're from and take it on the chin.

There's a difference between an accusation and a truism..however"hate" would not be a word I would use in this case...lets just say "can't stand"

Nachos Jones wrote:

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:How would you then feel if I came out and made a sweeping accusation directed personally at you that you had a hatred for Madigan because he was born in Leinster and not Ulster?

No I'd disagree but wouldn't take it personally. I've been accused of hating ROG and Earls in the past because of where they're from and take it on the chin.

Ok, so I take it like this. You think that it is ok to make sweeping accusations against people, without knowing them and painting them haters of people because they are born in another country

What you are saying is irrational. You are making criticisms of Payne which don't stand up to scrutiny, nor are consistant with your stated opinions about other players - re offloading and support lines.

You concede that the players are not offloading as a tactic but yet criticise Payne for not having any offloading ability (apparantly not needed at fullback... hmm watch how many Ulster tries come from Payne offloads and state how much you rated him as 13 at Blues ... must have forgot how to pass) and also criticise him for the support lines he apparantly doesn't run, even though you accept that Joe openly praised his support lines and accept the players aren't offloading anyways.

Ireland did introduce some quite nice backs moves. None worked all that well but I think with a little more work they might start unlocking really good defenses.

Nachos Jones wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:We've already seen that if Sexton is not available, then Keatley will come in as starting 10. Joe won't change that for the Welsh game. There is a good reason why Keatley starts ahead of Madigan (and JJ at Munster for that matter) - he is far more consistent. He also plays with Murray regularly so that has to be worth something.

You're probably right but I don't even think that Keatley should have been starting ahead of JJ this season. Keatley's continued selection over JJ has led him to leave Munster to go and play second fiddle at Northampton. The IRFU should have stepped in and got him to Conn or another team where he will be guaranteed 1st team play. Really stumping the development of a player who would be ideal to back up Sexton and even take over from him in years to come.

Both Penney and Foley have preferred Keatley to Hanrahan. That looks like they weren't prepared to risk writing-off a season while JJ learned his trade "on the job". Hanrahan is all about potential and an exciting prospect in attack but has never convinced me of his ability to run a tactical defensive game. He has all the skills (like Madigan) but has yet to gain the maturity to make a top 10.

Why should Connacht have yet another new 10 foisted on them, when they also are trying to settle their side into a rhythm? I think Saints are actually a great fit for Hanrahan as he will have generally good ball to play with and plenty of time to make his decisions in the slower-paced AP. He also will have zero pressure as Myler's understudy and earn more money to boot!

rodders wrote:

What you are saying is irrational. You are making criticisms of Payne which don't stand up to scrutiny, nor are consistant with your stated opinions about other players - re offloading and support lines.

You concede that the players are not offloading as a tactic but yet criticise Payne for not having any offloading ability (apparantly not needed at fullback... hmm watch how many Ulster tries come from Payne offloads and state how much you rated him as 13 at Blues ... must have forgot how to pass) and also criticise him for the support lines he apparantly doesn't run, even though you accept that Joe openly praised his support lines and accept the players aren't offloading anyways.  

See, now that's a reasonable counter to what I have been saying. It didn't need you to accuse me of hating someone because of where they are born now did it?

I will start with the Blues, yes he was playing excellently there at 13 and I was certain he would get into the AB's side if he had of stayed.
He is now at Ulster, playing predominantly at 15 and as such, I feel that it has affected his ability to play 13 for Ireland, 2 different skill sets required. I have said many times, he has to potential to play 13 for Ireland but if he is not getting game time there for his own province then that will almost certainly hinder his progression.

Its my belief, from what I have seen personally (not from what Schmidt has said) that he does not run the supporting lines you would expect of an international 13. He, due to him playing predominantly 15 at Ulster, seems to have more 15 about him than 13. That's what I see in attack anyways when he seems to look more for the contact than offload (Schmidt's plan?), probably wrong but its my opinion. Sometimes I may be harsh on players but that is also because I have a higher expectation of certain players.

I have also said on numerous occasions that his defence is excellent and works with Schmidt's tactics. They are not the tactics I like but its working and Ireland are winning games so I am very happy.

Paynes best game in green for me. Best carrying stats of the backs and a very respectable tackle count as well as filling the shoes of our own defensive organiser and best ever player.

I wasn't sure he could do it but he has done well. I still think this partnership is geared towards the RWC and won't last too long beyond it because I don't expect Payne to be playing 13 for ulster

The Great Aukster wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:We've already seen that if Sexton is not available, then Keatley will come in as starting 10. Joe won't change that for the Welsh game. There is a good reason why Keatley starts ahead of Madigan (and JJ at Munster for that matter) - he is far more consistent. He also plays with Murray regularly so that has to be worth something.

You're probably right but I don't even think that Keatley should have been starting ahead of JJ this season. Keatley's continued selection over JJ has led him to leave Munster to go and play second fiddle at Northampton. The IRFU should have stepped in and got him to Conn or another team where he will be guaranteed 1st team play. Really stumping the development of a player who would be ideal to back up Sexton and even take over from him in years to come.

Both Penney and Foley have preferred Keatley to Hanrahan. That looks like they weren't prepared to risk writing-off a season while JJ learned his trade "on the job". Hanrahan is all about potential and an exciting prospect in attack but has never convinced me of his ability to run a tactical defensive game. He has all the skills (like Madigan) but has yet to gain the maturity to make a top 10.

Why should Connacht have yet another new 10 foisted on them, when they also are trying to settle their side into a rhythm? I think Saints are actually a great fit for Hanrahan as he will have generally good ball to play with and plenty of time to make his decisions in the slower-paced AP. He also will have zero pressure as Myler's understudy and earn more money to boot!

That's the thing, its a myth that JJ cant run a tactical game. He has done on many occasions, its one of the reasons Northampton wanted him for. Not only can he attack from nowhere but he can run a very good tactical game when needed. He was/is in a Munster team with POM and POC who have taught him very well how to do this.

The reason I said Conn, was because I would have loved to have seen him build up a partnership and understanding between him and Marmion (ala Stringer ROG).

Anyway, it might all be a plot by that dastardly devious despot, Joseph Schmidt. He's setting up Henshaw as the one for the opposition to pin down. And when they do, it'll be Payne's turn to do the flourishing dramatics.

Oh he's a bastard, that Joseph.

Nachos Jones wrote:

rodders wrote:

What you are saying is irrational. You are making criticisms of Payne which don't stand up to scrutiny, nor are consistant with your stated opinions about other players - re offloading and support lines.

You concede that the players are not offloading as a tactic but yet criticise Payne for not having any offloading ability (apparantly not needed at fullback... hmm watch how many Ulster tries come from Payne offloads and state how much you rated him as 13 at Blues ... must have forgot how to pass) and also criticise him for the support lines he apparantly doesn't run, even though you accept that Joe openly praised his support lines and accept the players aren't offloading anyways.  

See, now that's a reasonable counter to what I have been saying. It didn't need you to accuse me of hating someone because of where they are born now did it?

I will start with the Blues, yes he was playing excellently there at 13 and I was certain he would get into the AB's side if he had of stayed.
He is now at Ulster, playing predominantly at 15 and as such, I feel that it has affected his ability to play 13 for Ireland, 2 different skill sets required. I have said many times, he has to potential to play 13 for Ireland but if he is not getting game time there for his own province then that will almost certainly hinder his progression.

Its my belief, from what I have seen personally (not from what Schmidt has said) that he does not run the supporting lines you would expect of an international 13. He, due to him playing predominantly 15 at Ulster, seems to have more 15 about him than 13. That's what I see in attack anyways when he seems to look more for the contact than offload (Schmidt's plan?), probably wrong but its my opinion. Sometimes I may be harsh on players but that is also because I have a higher expectation of certain players.

I have also said on numerous occasions that his defence is excellent and works with Schmidt's tactics. They are not the tactics I like but its working and Ireland are winning games so I am very happy.

I don't agree en mass with that but apologise for (semi indirectly) accusing you of hating Payne because of his nationality and you taking direct offense to the suggestion.

I don't think Payne, or Henshaw could be expected to do better than they have under the circumstances. They, do need to find a bit more in attack(although not as much as some cirtics are suggesting) - actually I would be more critical of the back 3 in that regard - neither Bowe or Zebo are getting much success with the ball in hand, but as with Payne are excelling at the job at hand.

Earls, Gilroy and Fitzgerald are all in great form and with Trimble to come back I think there are options to mix things up a bit - but at the minute I've no doubt the 15 taking the field is the best group to keep winning.

Standulstermen wrote:Paynes best game in green for me. Best carrying stats of the backs and a very respectable tackle count as well as filling the shoes of our own defensive organiser and best ever player.

I wasn't sure he could do it but he has done well. I still think this partnership is geared towards the RWC and won't last too long beyond it because I don't expect Payne to be playing 13 for ulster

Think Kearney made more meters that Payne no?

Kearney ran more metres but their metres per carry Payne is slightly ahead. 15s always are expected to run more aswell due to fielding high kicks thus my comment that Paynes stats were better

True dat. Harrington into a playoff in the Honda Classic for a million dollar prize. Not bad for a guy ranked 297 in the world.

Apology accepted rodders.

I feel both Bowe and Zebo have done very well for the amount of ball that's is actually reaching them.

It was a big improvement all round and shows us what we can do at a more aggressive tempo.  We needed to see it.

Now this game should be forgotten and minds should turn to preparing for Wales.  Indeed, I hope Wales got a mention in that very winning dressing room.  The players should have been asked one by one - is that us?  have we had enough? - is beating England the objective of today?

Nope.  Wales should expect an even bigger effort from us, particularly concentrating on getting those final 10 or 15 minutes of endgame right.  

Wales have already been and will talk big in the lead in.  They're a side that thrive on those confidence levels. The France win seems to have done the trick for them this season.  Ireland should in turn leave them in no doubt that we feel we have another gear again waiting for tough away games.

http://www.therugbyblog.com/six-nations-2015-ireland-vs-england-player-ratings

Interesting ratings here - Best Ireland's best player and Hartley England's worst.

SecretFly wrote:It was a big improvement all round and shows us what we can do at a more aggressive tempo.  We needed to see it.

Now this game should be forgotten and minds should turn to preparing for Wales.  Indeed, I hope Wales got a mention in that very winning dressing room.  The players should have been asked one by one - is that us?  have we had enough? - is beating England the objective of today?

Nope.  Wales should expect an even bigger effort from us, particularly concentrating on getting those final 10 or 15 minutes of endgame right.  

Wales have already been and will talk big in the lead in.  They're a side that thrive on those confidence levels.  The France win seems to have done the trick for them this season.  Ireland should in turn leave them in no doubt that we feel we have another gear again waiting for tough away games.

Very good point. As an Englishman, I am a little baffled by all this arguing among Irish supporters in the wake of a very good and deserved win yesterday. Move on fellas, you've got a great set of players and they're doing the business. You may or not be able to tinker with the formula to even greater effect but, for now at least, surely better to look forward positively. Good luck to both sides for Cardiff, which may actually prove to be the real championship Decider.

I'm not going to wade too deep into this argument but I would say a lot of posters are highlighting Payne's metres carried stat as a positive.

About 20 of those metres came from him fielding an overhit box kick in the 2nd half.

Best did have an excellent game. His lineout was great, he's always a focal point in the scrum, breakdown steals, carried tirelessly, and he has an under appreciated mobility- sometimes he makes tackles you'd think a front row wouldn't have a right to make.

I can't agree with his assessment of Bowe, Payne and Murphy. Murphy in particular was really excellent. Not necessarily excellent enough to keep his place when Heaslip was available but a very pleasant surprise.

Well fly, Wales beating France has shifted the goalposts in the competition - that game for me is the biggest one and potentially tougher now than Saturdays.

It would be great to coast home now after beating France and England but unfortunately we'll have to do it tough... that said I think the 20 point swing against England gives us a buffer but I'd be disappointed not to do the slam and won it on points again, even though 4 wins would still be a decent effort.

Wales look really strong - halfpenny is superb under the high ball and its hard to see them losing twice at the MS.... but Wales can only play one way so at least we know what we are up against.

Notch wrote:Best did have an excellent game. His lineout was great, he's always a focal point in the scrum, breakdown steals, carried tirelessly, and he has an under appreciated mobility- sometimes he makes tackles you'd think a front row wouldn't have a right to make.

I can't agree with his assessment of Bowe, Payne and Murphy. Murphy in particular was really excellent. Not necessarily excellent enough to keep his place when Heaslip was available but a very pleasant surprise.

I was really impressed with Murphy - and O'Donnell when he came on, especially given Englands backrow totally destroyed Wales all Lions back row at the breakdown and Billy V caused mayem against Munster in the RCC.

Best needed a big game and delivered big time. He was everywhere. Normally doesn't do well againt Hartley so he'll have enjoyed that performance. The pack to a man were outstanding.

Payne has been OK - I think the debate on whether he should retain his starting spot or not comes down to whether you think Ireland are playing at full capacity yet. Personally I still think we have some way to go, as such I would like to see one or two changes in personnel. One of those would be giving Keith Earls a start at 13. Is that really such an outrageous thing to say?

Henshaw has been fantastic since the AIs and perhaps that has led to some unfairly highlighting Payne as a weak link.

There are a fair few permutations that could see any of Ireland Wales or England winning still but the ball is obviously in Irelands court and they have a fair points difference.

That said I can see England putting a fair few points on Scotland so if we (Wales) do win in Cardiff it won't be by a big score which would mean England will come right back into it and with their game being the last up on super Saturday they would know what they had to do.

We play Wales on a Saturday afternoon right? I think that makes the Millenium Stadium a far more sobering proposition (quite literally) than what England have faced in Cardiff in recent years.

Notch wrote:Best did have an excellent game. His lineout was great, he's always a focal point in the scrum, breakdown steals, carried tirelessly, and he has an under appreciated mobility- sometimes he makes tackles you'd think a front row wouldn't have a right to make.

I can't agree with his assessment of Bowe, Payne and Murphy. Murphy in particular was really excellent. Not necessarily excellent enough to keep his place when Heaslip was available but a very pleasant surprise.

He made one particularly important one in the second half when England were in the ascendancy where he kept pace with Nowell who tried to go the outside and and caught him as near was nearly away. Thought it might have been a try-saver.

SimonofSurrey wrote:

Very good point. As an Englishman, I am a little baffled by all this arguing among Irish supporters in the wake of a very good and deserved win yesterday.

That's how we do things here, Simon.  Win or lose, we beat the hell out of each other and our players regardless.  Some nations choose reffing decisions, some might complain about home or away advantages, some about the dark arts inflicted on them.  
But us...we blame ourselves for both winning and losing and we're never too f**king pleased about either!!!

theslosty wrote:We play Wales on a Saturday afternoon right? I think that makes the Millenium Stadium a far more sobering proposition (quite literally) than what England have faced in Cardiff in recent years.

Half 2 I think isn't it then the England Scotland game after with France Italy on Sunday.

How dare you suggest that we argue after games Fly!!!

SecretFly wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:

Very good point. As an Englishman, I am a little baffled by all this arguing among Irish supporters in the wake of a very good and deserved win yesterday.

That's how we do things here, Simon.  Win or lose, we beat the hell out of each other and our players regardless.  Some nations choose reffing decisions, some might complain about home or away advantages, some about the dark arts inflicted on them.  
But us...we blame ourselves for both winning and losing and we're never too f**king pleased about either!!!

Sad but true

I think its either grand slam or bust for Ireland. I'm confident that they'll beat Wales though providing there isn't an implosion.

If Wales win then England are in a good position to win the championship.

profitius wrote:I think its either grand slam or bust for Ireland. I'm confident that they'll beat Wales though providing there isn't an implosion.

If Wales win then England are in a good position to win the championship.

If we do beat Ireland then I think England would be in pole given the games they have left.

If Wales win, then we have to put the bejaysus of all armageddons on the poor Scots. They'll come out third best in all departments - lineouts, scrums, breakdowns, metres run, tries scored, .................... but they'll still win with that blasted final fecking kick in the 82th minute!

SimonofSurrey wrote:
Very good point. As an Englishman, I am a little baffled by all this arguing among Irish supporters in the wake of a very good and deserved win yesterday. Move on fellas, you've got a great set of players and they're doing the business. You may or not be able to tinker with the formula to even greater effect but, for now at least, surely better to look forward positively. Good luck to both sides for Cardiff, which may actually prove to be the real championship Decider.  

Here now, lets not get carried away fella ...We've got 21 good players, Jonny Sexton, a kiwi, the choke tackle and the garryowen - we'll have less of the positivity now.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

profitius wrote:I think its either grand slam or bust for Ireland. I'm confident that they'll beat Wales though providing there isn't an implosion.

If Wales win then England are in a good position to win the championship.

If we do beat Ireland then I think England would be in pole given the games they have left.

Why? They have France and Scotland. France on the last day is tough. Even though they keep losing France havent been defeated by that much by anyone and England lost to them last time around.

Wales on the other hand if they beat Ireland just need to trounce Italy. Ireland are +35 on Wales right now. I certainly think Wales can beat Ireland by +5 and then Italy by 26 points plus.

I reckon is Wales do beat Ireland the points difference between Ireland, Wales and England will be very tight.

England could hammer Scotland at Twickenham. It's happened before and can happen again if Scotland play like they did against Italy as opposed to how they played in the first two games.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

profitius wrote:I think its either grand slam or bust for Ireland. I'm confident that they'll beat Wales though providing there isn't an implosion.

If Wales win then England are in a good position to win the championship.

If we do beat Ireland then I think England would be in pole given the games they have left.

Yeah I don't think you can say that - Scotland have played better away from Murrayfield and will surely raise their game against England. By contrast if Ireland lost a narrow one at the millenium and were going into the final game with a >15 lead I wouldn't be so quick to put the money on England putting a big score against France.

I hope it doesn't come down to it but unless England do a number on Scotland, even a one score defeat against Wales will keep us well in the title hunt going into super saturday.

I believe we'll beat Wales though... probably through a Jared Payne drop goal... who'll then be given the freedom of Limerick after it emerges in the indo that his Granny is actually the long lost Irish half sister of Ricky Fluteys.

I think Jared Payne will probably instigate a forward driven push-over try to win it for us in the end. I think a drop-goal is way too sexy a method for Joe to allow. Drop goals are off the agenda now too - as Kearney's half mile attempt showed.

Shocker by Rob. Imagine Paddy Wallace tried a stunt like that - the gardai would have to escourt him to Newry.

Oh I didn't mind him trying it. He got one or two of those before. It's in the lap of the gods. But the god's sneered and sniggered this time.

Notch wrote:England could hammer Scotland at Twickenham. It's happened before and can happen again if Scotland play like they did against Italy as opposed to how they played in the first two games.

I would like to say i agree with you that England could hammer Scotland. But if England play like they did against Ireland, i doubt it would happen. It all depends on if SL Keeps the same team that as played all through 6ns, or he brings in some new Blood, Lawes Parlin, is Wood back to full fitness or is he still out? Will Mike Brown be back for the next game or is he ruled out all together?

majesticimperialman wrote:

Notch wrote:England could hammer Scotland at Twickenham. It's happened before and can happen again if Scotland play like they did against Italy as opposed to how they played in the first two games.

I would like to say i agree with you that England could hammer Scotland. But if England play like they did against Ireland, i doubt it would happen. It all depends on if SL Keeps the same team that as played all through 6ns, or he brings in some new Blood, Lawes Parlin, is Wood back to full fitness or is he still out? Will Mike Brown be back for the next game or is he ruled out all together?

I don't know Maj... you should ask Lancaster not me!

rodders wrote:Shocker by Rob. Imagine Paddy Wallace tried a stunt like that - the gardai would have to escourt him to Newry.

after being extradited from ye famous beach once more.....

Nachos Jones wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Both Penney and Foley have preferred Keatley to Hanrahan. That looks like they weren't prepared to risk writing-off a season while JJ learned his trade "on the job". Hanrahan is all about potential and an exciting prospect in attack but has never convinced me of his ability to run a tactical defensive game. He has all the skills (like Madigan) but has yet to gain the maturity to make a top 10.

Why should Connacht have yet another new 10 foisted on them, when they also are trying to settle their side into a rhythm? I think Saints are actually a great fit for Hanrahan as he will have generally good ball to play with and plenty of time to make his decisions in the slower-paced AP. He also will have zero pressure as Myler's understudy and earn more money to boot!

That's the thing, its a myth that JJ cant run a tactical game. He has done on many occasions, its one of the reasons Northampton wanted him for. Not only can he attack from nowhere but he can run a very good tactical game when needed. He was/is in a Munster team with POM and POC who have taught him very well how to do this.

The reason I said Conn, was because I would have loved to have seen him build up a partnership and understanding between him and Marmion (ala Stringer ROG).

The key word was "defensive" in the phrase "tactical defensive game". The sort of game where Munster are losing and everyone's under pressure. Where ROG used to drive the team up-field and everyone would know he'd inevitably knock over a last minute drop goal. Given that the Saints have Myler who is the tactical defensive archetype, why would JJ's ability to play that game be a reason to sign him?
I have watched a fair bit of Munster on TV over the past two seasons and there have been occasions when they have been losing but have obviously missed any of the 'many occasions' when JJ has been at 10 and he has given the team the direction to turn around the game. Presumably Penney and Foley also missed these or do they just prefer Keatley for some unknown illogical reason?

majesticimperialman wrote:

Notch wrote:England could hammer Scotland at Twickenham. It's happened before and can happen again if Scotland play like they did against Italy as opposed to how they played in the first two games.

I would like to say i agree with you that England could hammer Scotland. But if England play like they did against Ireland, i doubt it would happen. It all depends on if SL Keeps the same team that as played all through 6ns, or he brings in some new Blood, Lawes Parlin, is Wood back to full fitness or is he still out? Will Mike Brown be back for the next game or is he ruled out all together?

I honestly think that might be a danger.  Changing players now.  Those players are well able to beat Scotland.  
Christ, we're not that bad that Scotland will do a similar job on you guys on your own soil.  
But they might do if that side is played around with now and players are dropped because of that one loss.  That's not going to be good karma in camp if it happened.  That's when Scotland might strike.

Nachos Jones wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:

Very good point. As an Englishman, I am a little baffled by all this arguing among Irish supporters in the wake of a very good and deserved win yesterday.

That's how we do things here, Simon.  Win or lose, we beat the hell out of each other and our players regardless.  Some nations choose reffing decisions, some might complain about home or away advantages, some about the dark arts inflicted on them.  
But us...we blame ourselves for both winning and losing and we're never too f**king pleased about either!!!

Sad but true

Speaking as a proud resident of Twickenham and son of Richmond Borough, my lifelong experience is the opposite of that: after every Eng v Ire game at HQ it's impossible to tell from your fans if you've won or lost because you're all up for the post-game Craic. It was also a pleasure for me to be in a Dublin pub during the last few minutes of your autumn win against Oz. The closest I've ever seen to a group of grown men apparently suffering acute labour pains together.

As for the teams strikes me Ireland and England have diametrically opposite problems: you have a fantastically effective first choice 21 with relatively little to back it up to the same standard. We, however, could probably put out three teams of roughly the same standard, if/when everyone's fit, who would be good enough to win more than they lose, but...
200 days from the next RWC I know who I'd rather be, provided I can keep my 21+ fit.

GunsGerms wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

profitius wrote:I think its either grand slam or bust for Ireland. I'm confident that they'll beat Wales though providing there isn't an implosion.

If Wales win then England are in a good position to win the championship.

If we do beat Ireland then I think England would be in pole given the games they have left.

Why? They have France and Scotland. France on the last day is tough. Even though they keep losing France havent been defeated by that much by anyone and England lost to them last time around.

Wales on the other hand if they beat Ireland just need to trounce Italy. Ireland are +35 on Wales right now. I certainly think Wales can beat Ireland by +5 and then Italy by 26 points plus.

I reckon is Wales do beat Ireland the points difference between Ireland, Wales and England will be very tight.

I just think they will stick a fair whack on Scotland, their game is second up next Saturday so they will know the result of the Wales Ireland game and no if they have to put a stack on them and also they are last up in the final round so will know what they have to do against France.

Ok we all know France are in a terrible state at the moment and we all know they could even have the final say on the outcome so it's all gut feeling and speculation at moment.